Warrior Monks or No Dachi? The Quest for Uber-Infantry

[Scipio Valorus]

Hello all. I'm sure this has been debated endlessly on the forum, but being a newbie here, I thought I would dredge it up again. Personally, I don't use No-Dachi very much. I prefer Warrior Monks because of

1. Fanatical Morale: I've had a 5-Honour WM unit that I foolishly marched into a canyon, only to have 2 units of YS run down the sides from their concealed posistions. The YS had the advantage of surprise and height, yet my WM annihilated one unit and held out long enough for reinforcements to arrive on scene, saving the day and the unit. (Started the battle with 49 WM in that unit, ended the battle with 31.

2. Better defense value: Read above

3. Buddha: Other units rout more easily (if Buddhist as well) when faced with these guys, they really seem reluctant to fight them for a long period of time.


Other than cost, can anyone give me good reasons to use No-Dachi as my elite shock troops?


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The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.

Warrior Monks are the best unit in Shogun: Total War. They are critisiced to be unbalanced because unlike all other units; no unit can kill the warrior monks at the same honour level.

No-Dachi can be useful in multiplayer low koku games but Monkeys are better than ND anyway.

P.S. Buying many monks in multiplayer games produce unbalanced battles and monk rushers are considered as dishounourable.


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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre at: http://terazawa.totalwar.org

[Scipio Valorus]

Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
Warrior Monks are the best unit in Shogun: Total War. They are critisiced to be unbalanced because unlike all other units; no unit can kill the warrior monks at the same honour level.
[/QUOTE]

What about Heavy Cavalry? I've routed many a monk with these fine fellows.

I haven't played a MP game yet, but how can a monk rush be considered dis-honourable? Especially since the Art of War is supposed to be the bible for this game, I would think seeking any advantage over your enemy would be preferable. Besides, a rush has to be the most stupid maneuver ever, surely even one made of monks could be defeated.

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The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.

Quote Originally posted by Scipio Valorus:
What about Heavy Cavalry? I've routed many a monk with these fine fellows.
[/QUOTE]

I once thought like you as well. I playtested with a friend of mine...

1 HC hon2 VS 1 WM hon2
on green fine day
test on best of 5 basis

The Warrior Monk won everytime.


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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre at: http://terazawa.totalwar.org

[CaptMac]

I prefer WM over No-Dachi.
In every situation, No-Dachi seem to take more losses than the Monks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif Even Ashi units appear sturdier and take less losses (if they don't run).
For infantry/melee I use a mix of WM/Sams backed by missles (archer/musk). Throw in some Cav and you are good all around!
WMs will take a beating and still have a sizeable unit strength after a fierce fight. With No-Dachi unit you end up with alot less troops..I end up nominating them for arrow gatherers next battle. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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The only thing you have to regret are the chances not taken.
Expect the unexpected and take in air.

[Scipio Valorus]

It is as I thought then. Here are the well known stats for ND and WM:

Warrior Monks No-Dachi
Cost: 500 400
Attack: 5 5
Defence: 2 -2
Armour: 1 1
Morale: 8 8
Walk: 7 7
Run: 12 12

Why are they in the game, some might ask?

I see three possibilities:

1. Shimazu. Either through historical acuuracy, (not sure about that, anyone here know?) or the simple need to give them a bonus, the Shimazu excel at producing these guys. Since they are the most likely to convert, they still need a good shock part of their army, thus the ND.

2. Cost. Cheap-minded Daimyos with a hard-on for ashigaru would prefer the relative ease of getting a legendary swordsman and building a sword dojo, rather then the expense of producing a Large Castle and a Buddhist Temple. Of course there is also the obvious cost of the two units themselves.

3. Christianity. As I explored with the Shimazu analysis, other Daimyos too would want (if converted) access to a highly effective shock unit, rather then exclusively relying on their new toys (which is all I really view gunpowder weapons at this point in my Daishohood, but that is another thread) to carry the day for them.


As you can see, there are cases to be made for No-Dachi, but in my opinon, it's still more effective to use Warrior Monks in any situation that could call for No-Dachi.



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The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to either safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.

[smeegol]

What pisses me off about monks is that they can fight off incredible odds. Two units of 1 honor monks defended against aproximately 1500 yari samurai. The only explanation I had was they they were all 0-1 honor.

This still is outrageous. They were outnumbered 5 to 1! They were surrounded and in the middle of my entire army getting crushed and they just destroyed me with ease. They hardly had any losses.

Since the campaign was still early on, I didn't have legendary spear dojo yet. I had also concentrated mainly on producing a rich clan so my men didn't have much battle experience. I ended up making a massive army of about 3000 men and crushed those fuggas.

[Chirotera]

One also has to figure in the expansion. (for MP) That is to say it may be cheaper to buy your nodachi armor and raise their defense to be more even with the monks, than to buy monks straight up. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Expansion aside though, I hate monks. I prefer Nodachi, as it forces me to use my brain more. Not that I don't use monks, still take about 3 units, I just don't like them to be the focus of my army.

Amatsu

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
I once thought like you as well. I playtested with a friend of mine...

1 HC hon2 VS 1 WM hon2
on green fine day
test on best of 5 basis

The Warrior Monk won everytime.


In MP and custom battles it is so true, but in SP i had sometimes a different experience. I think it is because of the armor upgrades.

Since that in the expansion pack, it seems that we will be able to add armor, i am curious to see if it will change things a bit (HC vs WM ).

[theforce]

That is weird!!!
4 Ys could kill the wm.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[TheDarkElite]

monks can beat up no-dachi

[Catiline]

I think it's fully established No dachi are Monk-Lites. Nice for a change when it doesn't matter, but rarely as satisfying. Used properly in low koku games they can be useful, but without screening fire they're going to die, and without the defence bonus a reduced numbers no dachi unit is going to break very quickly. You HAVE to flank with them.

Also with a bit of luck and some high ground archers can sometimes beat off monks, provided they kill enough at a distance. wouldn't want to rely on it happening though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Unless the Persians fly away like birds, hide in the earth like mice, or leap into a lake like frogs, they will never see their homes again, but will die under our arrows

[This message has been edited by Catiline (edited 06-07-2001).]

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Catiline:
I think it's fully established No dachi are Monk-Lites.
[/QUOTE]

Nah. The difference is simple: the Monks go with Buddha's compassion, which is worth 200 koku and +4 defense. Thats the only difference. So No-Dachis (ie, Sling-Blades) are but monk wannabes... priests with no master...

So, are there any folks out there that take an army of all mounted pig-stickers and sling-blades?

[theforce]

Maybe a Christian no-dashi can kill a warrior monk cause there is some morale hit of attacking a unit like warrior monks. So maybe with out that morale penalty other units can kill warrior monks like HC.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[BanzaiZAP]

You can usually get ND much earlier than WM in the SP campaign, in addition to the cost difference. By the time I get my first monks, the Sword Dojo already has an attached armory and swordsmith. But in general, yeah, monks are tougher than no-dachi.

-- B)

[Kraellin]

scipio,

check your figures on the cost of nd's again. i know in multi it's 300, not 400 for nd. and that makes a big diff.

K.

[Krasturak]

Krast knows the answer:

On 'Battle Calculator', 100 NoDachi vs 60 Monks (that's the cost ratio), gives this result:

No-Dachi win with 21 survivors.
Monks need 16 more men to win.

Krast uses No-Dachi frequently.

As a side note on this issue, consider the costs of increasing Hon for both these unit types. No-Dachi are cheaper all the way up to 9 Hon.

Think about it.

[OUT4BLOOD]

i was the first one to show tera the might of WM vs HC ......

[RageFury]

i dunno bout that actually co althoug unit 4 unit the warrior monk wins vs Hev Cav...

In a battle i have routed many an army by chargin my hev cav at a flankin unit o Monks...although the monks win in the long run the morale bklow when the hev cav hits is enormous...

Heavy Cavalry r great http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif))

-Fury

there's nothing wrong with how powerful the monks are, what is wrong is the fact that you have an easy accsess to them in SP, and let's not get started about MP at all... they should be the strongest unit, but they should also be very hard to come by, we're talking 1 unit, perhaps 2 occasionally, limit per army; that would be something more historically accurate, and ppl would have to make good use of them

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http://jaydeesan.homestead.com/files/images/monn_t.gif jd
- I hate romantic comedies, which is pretty strange considering that my whole love life is a big JOKE -

[Shigi-qutuqu]

HC 8 (attacking) v WM 8

HC WIN!!! Ok, they only had 11 men left and the WM had 6 when the Taisho 'lost his head'...but it was one for the HC all the same.

[MoriFait Terazawa]

well the best thing 2 do would be to have a bit of both i think they r both great units so i use them both wether it be 4 monks and 1 nd i have 2 have a mix of them as they both have bonuses.

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Honour to the Mori clan
MoriFait Terazawa..

[Nelson]

I posted this months ago but it seems like a good time to do it again.

Quote Here's what Stephen Turnbull says about monks.
After quoting a manuscript description of combat between a fully armored monk and a mounted samurai, Turnbull writes "Battles involving warrior monks, however, are few and far between".

Later he says, "In conclusion, therefore, it can be seen the the warrior monks were at their most influential when dealing with superstitious courtiers or ignorant townsfolk. In disputes between temples their fighting skills came into their own, BUT WERE TO PROVE NO MATCH FOR THE SAMURAI".

The caps are my own emphasis. These quotes are from Samurai Warfare, page 42.

So why are monks so potent in Shogun you ask? Maybe it was images of David Caradine in in the old TV show "Kung Fu"! Who knows? Monks actualy wore armor, too, but not in the game. No sir.

The fact is, according to the developer's own history consultant, the values monks get in the game are right off the stable floor.[/QUOTE]

[Kraellin]

ok all you history buffs, if they'd meant it to be accurate they'd have called it a re-creation or at least a simulation. it's a bloody GAME for crying out loud!

sorry, i get carried away sometimes when dealing with statisticians, bean counters and history buffs. they tend to take the game apart piece by piece and examine every little piece and compare it to some dusty old book article that only one of 'them' would know about....GO OUT AND KILL SOMETHING, for god's sake!

lol.

K.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Whew,feel better Kraellin?Don't be so wishy-washy,tell us how you really feel. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Brown Wolf]

Yeah the monks are unbalanced, i wish they would replace them with samurai that actually use KATANAS!!!!!!!!

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"Failure is not an option"

[Dark Phoenix]

Well I am studying to be a bean counter and dont do that. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

But monks are over powered I wish you could put a cap on how many are used or reduce there stats. Coz at teh moment when I see a heap of them I just have no fun.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[KenchiKnite]

personally Yari Samurai are the bomb!

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Within a handful of ashes lies the birth of a new age, with the traditions of GOLDEN AGE, Honour to Clan Kenchikuka!

[Da Masta]

YS are only used to take archer fire.

[shingenmitch2]

SHIGI QUTUQU --
The Heavy Cavalry lost in ur post

After the battle you had:
HC 11 left, WM 6 left

well if u spent 800 on that HC and I only spent 500 on the WM, I consider that a win for the WM. PLUS I could have killed that HC with my 200 koku YS, I could not touch that WM with ANY YS.

Quote Originally posted by Kraellin:
ok all you history buffs, if they'd meant it to be accurate they'd have called it a re-creation or at least a simulation. it's a bloody GAME for crying out loud!

sorry, i get carried away sometimes when dealing with statisticians, bean counters and history buffs. they tend to take the game apart piece by piece and examine every little piece and compare it to some dusty old book article that only one of 'them' would know about....GO OUT AND KILL SOMETHING, for god's sake!
[/QUOTE]

well you see, some of us are actually looking for REALISM and accuracy. (one of the reasons many ppl were disappointed and left a long time ago- there was so much promise and hope in this project...)

anyway, just a reminder, i dont want to get into that anymore

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http://jaydeesan.homestead.com/files/images/monn_t.gif jd
- I hate romantic comedies, which is pretty strange considering that my whole love life is a big JOKE -

[Kraellin]

hehe jaydee,

well, my post was VERY tongue in cheek :)

actually, i do enjoy some of the historic and statistical analyses and i do understand about wanting realism.

as for the limitations on some of the units, most notably the monks, perhaps ca will add in a feature, for multi and even single player, where you could limit the number of each unit in the startup. i dont think that would be too difficult to do. just make it an option in multi for the host to set or not.

no good reason you couldnt also make it possible to play with different amounts of starting koku for each player in multi also.

K.

[Ratta Yamamoto]

I personally feel that the more accurate to history the better the game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Ratta Yamamoto (Daimyo of Ratta Clan) www.rattaclan.homestead.com (http://www.rattaclan.homestead.com)

[ShadeWraith]

For slightly more koku (548 I think)you can have h5 YS. Not only will they beat h2 WM, they decimate all Cav types and are more resistant to ranged unit fire. The only drawback is they are a bit slower on the move than WM, but they still make excellent defensive troops.

L8r, Wraith

[This message has been edited by ShadeWraith (edited 06-12-2001).]