How do you think CA is doing, right now?

[Fisherking]

How do you think CA is doing, right now?

Not on releases of ETW.

This is not a rant thread. Lets try to discuss it and not just rant about it.

There are several ways a business can view its customers. Everything from love to hate and several tangents from that.

Everyone likes to have their work appreciated and when it isn’t there are different way people handle it.

I don’t think we need any finger pointing or blaming. Most of that has been covered time and time again.


What I think is that they are trying hard to please. Sometimes this leads them on tangents most of us would rather they hadn’t taken but they are trying to please...for the most part.

There have been a couple of issues where they seem to be striking back at the players. Maybe this is due to what they feel are excessive complaints.

Anyway, I am sure they are under pressure. It is around 70 day until NTW is to hit the shelves and there is still the Multiplayer beta for ETW to get out...

[gollum]

originally posted by Fisherking
What I think is that they are trying hard to please.

Yeah, they are trying hard to please their publisher. That's exactly the problem.

As for being under pressure they are not the only ones - anyone that works a job especially these days is under considerable pressure.

[antisocialmunky]

They're doing fine. I'm more curious as to what CA Aussieland is working on using the ETW engine.

[Krusader]

As one within EB said some days ago:
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if everyone has read this blog entry (http://blogs.sega.com/totalwar/2009/11/10/battle-ai-by-mike-simpson/) by Mike Simpson from CA, but it seems like they're in big trouble. After reading his previous blog entries (specially the first one) and being a RL project manager myself, I would say that CA is probably in great danger.

The combination of low rates from gamers for ETW, high costs on trying to solve the BAI and CAI (now completely lost since the main AI programmer left them), the high pressure from SEGA, and probably a few more internal problems have forced this project responsible to come out publicly and make a big "mea culpa".

Personally, I think he's doing a lousy job because he's being very lame:

- he says the US public prefers a non-aggressive AI because they want to set the pace of the game... I'm not sure if he's calling them stupid or hinting that the hardcore fans are asking too much from the AI

- he says SEGA pushed them to release the game by Feb09, hinting that it was their fault for a rushed product

- he calls deserter to the main AI programmer who left them recently... ouch!

- he admits that the BAI in ETW is very bad but now they are moving on with new code to NTW and cannot reuse it for fixing ETW... he even asks for a C++ coder to join CA because he will find a place for him...

As a RL project manager myself, I can almost recognize the pattern here:

- this guy's job is on the line - his desperate tone and he can't hide that he was forced to create that blog against his will, to make "damage control" on the irate fans - his job only, or the entire ETW team?

- possibly CA is also in danger of closing if NTW doesn't become a success - it's not very clear, but I have that feeling

- they are under stress from SEGA and probably won't have money and/or people good enough to make a new RTW. - he praises them so much that it almost sounds like "don't fire them because they are awesomely good, although they made a bad job in ETW"...

I don't know guys, but I'm starting to doubt if we'll ever see an RTWII someday...
------------------------------------------------------------

Fisherking asked how we thought CA was doing and I thought this post was nice. And just to be on the absolute clear, this is an opinion/impression and not facts.

[Durallan]

I don't want CA to go bankrupt or anything because I like these totalwar games, but its a caseof, had they listened to us about the AI in M2TW, would we be at this stage today? IDK but it will be a shame if they go. I don't know how CA are going TBH, I haven't played ETW or looked at these boards since I got Dragon Age Origins, been playing that all along instead

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Why would we want to see a Rome 2 anyway? You're kidding yourself if you think it's any different from M2 or Empire.

[gollum]

Bingo, but try to explain this to EB enthusiasts and RTW fanboys. In any case CA may make better games if it has more moderate resources. Or far worse ones of course. In either case a dramatic change will happen if they get into difficulties which considering how bad TW has become can be nothing else than good imo.

[Fisherking]

If we look at the bog, then they did listen about the AI. It just turned on them when they lost the programmer.

Yes, they are under pressure form SEGA. SEGA is not doing all that well and CA is carrying a big burden because they made the money for them in sales. Now they have to do it again.

They are under a lot of pressure from the fan base too because of the problems with ETW and a loss of confidence which will likely impact sales.

I am not forecasting the end of CA or the Total War franchise but things could be a lot better.

They are sort of between a rock and a hard place.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, the pattern isn't really downsizing. Its shutting down the studio, retaining IP rights, and figuring out what to do with the IPs you got from the studio. That's the EA model anyways.

[Zild]

- he calls deserter to the main AI programmer who left them recently... ouch!
I really think everybody is reading way too much into this particular comment. It sounds like no more than typical British banter to me. Hell, I'd take it as a far worse sign if CA felt they couldn't say this about the guy!

I think CA are desperately looking for additional revenue streams and it's hurting them badly with the fans, if not financially. Wargaming (even in software form) is very much a niche hobby, and anything they do to try to expand the audience is seen as a bad thing by the original audience - too easy, too shallow, even too pretty.

As for ETW, I was put off that entirely by the concept of having to pay more real money for access to all the units. I appreciate this is almost certainly a blinkered, ill-informed and most likely incorrect view as I haven't really looked into it, and so I could not justify attacking CA over this. But how many other people would have been put off by the same concern?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

They should seriously sign with a better publisher, or self-publish. See if one of the online distribution guys like Stardock or even Paradox want to work something out, or just go solo and sell through primarily through Steam. (I'm probably one of the few curmudgeons who's actually ok with Steam, mind you).

[Krusader]

I really think everybody is reading way too much into this particular comment. It sounds like no more than typical British banter to me. Hell, I'd take it as a far worse sign if CA felt they couldn't say this about the guy!

I think CA are desperately looking for additional revenue streams and it's hurting them badly with the fans, if not financially. Wargaming (even in software form) is very much a niche hobby, and anything they do to try to expand the audience is seen as a bad thing by the original audience - too easy, too shallow, even too pretty.

As for ETW, I was put off that entirely by the concept of having to pay more real money for access to all the units. I appreciate this is almost certainly a blinkered, ill-informed and most likely incorrect view as I haven't really looked into it, and so I could not justify attacking CA over this. But how many other people would have been put off by the same concern?

I think if Mike Simpson had written "deserter" no one would have cared as much, if at all.
But people are frustrated with CA & ETW and the reactions to the TW blog seems to be mostly negative, then yeah I will agree to a point they might be reading too much into the comment...but then again I personally have gotten the feeling that Mr.Simpson isn't that happy about writing that blog either, so that is why I went like this :inquisitive:, when I read the deserter comment.

And on another note, as we've said other places there won't be any EB3 for ETW or NTW if some here thought we were CA-fanbois. If you had read the EB team's thread you'd see that most of us will probably buy NTW when it hits the bargain bin.
Although a few on the team do have a dream that there will be a RTW2 with ETW engine or better made by a Creative Assembly who listens to fans and actually follows through on mod tools.
But not me...I'm expecting Gettysburg: Total War for the console in 2012.

My own Total War dream is to see Shogun and Medieval 1 on gog.com!


They should seriously sign with a better publisher, or self-publish. See if one of the online distribution guys like Stardock or even Paradox want to work something out, or just go solo and sell through primarily through Steam. (I'm probably one of the few curmudgeons who's actually ok with Steam, mind you).

But isn't that a bit hard when SEGA actually owns CA and decides what they do?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

My own Total War dream is to see Shogun and Medieval 1 on gog.com!
Word, I've never played Shoggy and that would be a surefire way to rectify that situation.


But isn't that a bit hard when SEGA actually owns CA and decides what they do?
Probably, though I don't know the full situation. But after two bad experiences with publishers (there was some sort of reason they wanted out from Activision, right?) you'd think CA would be looking into something new.

[Durallan]

If we look at the blog, then they did listen about the AI. It just turned on them when they lost the programmer.

Yes, they are under pressure form SEGA. SEGA is not doing all that well and CA is carrying a big burden because they made the money for them in sales. Now they have to do it again.

They are under a lot of pressure from the fan base too because of the problems with ETW and a loss of confidence which will likely impact sales.

I am not forecasting the end of CA or the Total War franchise but things could be a lot better.

They are sort of between a rock and a hard place.

Why didn't they tell us this in the first place instead of giving us excuse after excuse after excuse?
it feels more boy crying Wolf! than something genuine. It comes once again to telling us the truth, we are grown ups, most of us we can take it!

[nameless]

If we look at the bog, then they did listen about the AI. It just turned on them when they lost the programmer.

Yes, they are under pressure form SEGA. SEGA is not doing all that well and CA is carrying a big burden because they made the money for them in sales. Now they have to do it again.

They are under a lot of pressure from the fan base too because of the problems with ETW and a loss of confidence which will likely impact sales.

I am not forecasting the end of CA or the Total War franchise but things could be a lot better.

They are sort of between a rock and a hard place.

Meh, they're a business not a charity group so they have to make a living, why that's so hard for some people to understand is beyond me.

They want to make a good game and they got the drive. From what I read on his blog they are looking to do better and make amends on NTW. With 1.5 they've fixed most of the major issues. Now it's the Battle AI and the sieges (at least form what I see anyways)

If NTW works out then that'll be good.



But not me...I'm expecting Gettysburg: Total War for the console in 2012.

Let's hope it never goes to console, that would be a bad decision.

[antisocialmunky]

Why didn't they tell us this in the first place instead of giving us excuse after excuse after excuse?
it feels more boy crying Wolf! than something genuine. It comes once again to telling us the truth, we are grown ups, most of us we can take it!

Because it is a rather pathetic answer if you think about it.

[Durallan]

it is a pathetic answer if you think about it, but the other excuses were even more so, and I can't remember them either which goes to show how memorable they were, but having said that, I don't really know, after ETW I'm not really planning on NTW unless someone like yahtzee or some gamer friends tell me its awesome and worth buying, there were just too many bugs and stuff in ETW for me to get the bad taste out of the mouth, so to speak.

[peacemaker]

I think CA's under pressure now. They've finally learned that people are tired of the bad AI and they're stepping up. I personally won't be buying NTW due to lack of funds, but if they continue on the uphill slope in terms of CAI I will likely be buying their next game.

Now that they've learned that they can't get away with awful AI now, perhaps they WILL make the next release with fantastic AI. If so, I'll be first in line:2thumbsup:

[Yun Dog]

I think CA's under pressure now. They've finally learned that people are tired of the bad AI and they're stepping up. I personally won't be buying NTW due to lack of funds, but if they continue on the uphill slope in terms of CAI I will likely be buying their next game.

Now that they've learned that they can't get away with awful AI now, perhaps they WILL make the next release with fantastic AI. If so, I'll be first in line:2thumbsup:

NO!!!

dont buy the one after NTW - because that will be a lame duck like ETW

remember their cycle of turds, revolution/evolution or some rubbish

buy the one after that one (which will be the equiv of NTW/Kingdums etc)

which means you wont have to worry about laying out any dough till about 2012

Like Durallan Ive moved on to playing DAO - and havent looked back

I think were CA to fall at least it might leave a gap in the market where 'a different game company' could have a go.

I agree it will be a pity cause Ive never argued that the games dont look absolutley incredible, you could really feel you were there - its just a pity the gameplay just wasnt there - so once the novelty of looking at the graphic wore off - the games were very boring to actually play - primarily due to the AIs inability to put up a challenge either strategically or tactically - and for a war game thats a serious problem. Maybe it needs a fresh approach?!

I see it as a great pity that both empire and med2 sit on the shelf, after so short a time, when I played MTW, and STW for years. its time... someone sack the quaterback

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

Lord Yunson wrote, "I think were CA to fall at least it might leave a gap in the market where 'a different game company' could have a go."

At last! Somebody is talking sensibly, and not ignoring the writing on the wall, or blanking the elephant in the room.

I can't believe how forgiving people have been, and continue to be, about the lies - not hype, LIES - CA told during their promotion of ETW. Then there's the dumbing down, the withholding of the promised modding tools, the patching fiasco culminating in a broken BAI which is not going to fixed... I could go on and on.

Rewarding mendacity and incompetence earns you more of the same. And deservedly so if you don't exercise your good sense and instead continue to fill CA-SEGA's coffers. Your loyalty will be abused not respected.

We have to move on.

Regards
Victor

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think AI problems in RTW were forgiveable, but MIITW didn't improve enough (it did improve tactically), MII also had many other problems (remember the shield bug?)

The game is probably quite playable now with Kingdoms, patched up and a time mod. However, my version of Kingdoms is still in it's plastic wrapper I think. I certainly never bothered to actuably install it.

[Braden]

Firstly, I would not like CA to close down or for another house to take on the Total War franchise (that, historically doesn’t work).

The Total War “style” is fantastic…2nd to none, copied by many but never bested.

However…there is a CLEAR drive (I am not going to even guess or hint where its coming from) for greater and greater enhancements in the graphics which, since Rome, has seemed to be at the expense of general playability of the games.

To me, M:TW was the height of the franchise. 2D graphics sure but…an exceptional soundtrack (Sean Pertwee…I ask you!) and superb gameplay. Yes, there were problems but they were mainly bugs rather than a clear “cutting back” of the Ai’s ability.

Empire, to me, has excellent Graphics. Yes, computer technology has advanced even since February but…why must already decent graphics be further enhanced??

Clearly pandering to the “two braincells” people I think.

I say, use that extra processing power for GAMEPLAY and Ai enhancement!

Unfortunately, I foresee NTW being only of medium success and I am sorry to say that CA are very likely to stop being a factor soon afterwards.

Its sad but they’ve allowed outside influences to control them and have just pushed us too far…we are not going out in droves to by this “game”, it isn’t happening and SEGA will only interpret this as a failure in the franchise when it actually isn’t.

[peacemaker]

NTW will probably be a medium success. I hope that it gets little to no sales, and CA will either quit making TW or start doing a good job. ETW 1.5 was "meh" because while the Campaign AI was doing OK (no rabid diplomacy on normal difficulty) and when it went to war, it usually made SOME attempts to fight. They've achieved maybe a fourth of what they could do, but they need to get over the shiny graphics.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The value of a software company is in its current project and in it's IP. If with the release of Nappy they are without a project then it'd be a good time to lay off everyone. Especially now that the IP has been devalued with ETW less then stellar reputation.
So I think the fate of CA is pretty much out of their hands. Even if NTW was awesomely well received and brings in a ton of money for SEGA, SEGA might still want to save itself the cost of developing the title after NTW. No programmers to pay looks better on this years books then a successful title in a year or two.

[antisocialmunky]

I don't think its THAT dire. ETW got a fair amount of bad press in the community but sold quite well. Likewise, EA gave the CnC community a big fat middle finger with Tiberian Warzzzzz but that did well to. I think it just hurt the image of Sega and CA more than the value of TW. Heck, the Sonic developers never listen to the fans anymore and just crank out pure poop and Sega hasn't axed them yet...

TW is still a very appealing genre as evidenced by everyone who wants a TW game that works.

Besides they don't really have any studios that cater to the Western Market so I don't think they will nuke all the staff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_software_development_studios

Squeenix has both Eidos and Gas Powered Games to play around with and is direct competition with Sega to expand into the western market.

[Babblearossa]

I think they're doing poorly on a downward trend unfortunately, Played this game the least of any totalwar game so far. Medieval 2 was frustating as well until I added a couple mods and then I more than happy with it, played my usual years months of fun. I don't know much about modding except I see modding people griping about tools promised but not delivered, with mikes blog ( which I like for it's honesty and people take too much exception to ) saying they'll have to stop working on it, it's extra-lame to not help the modders fix things for them.

This is the first totalwar game I've purchased since mtw without waiting till it sounds like most bugs have been fixed, and it's the last I'll purchase until seeing a couple months of feedback.

Also, I want CA to be successful as this is one of only 2 games I play,

[Captain Fishpants]

They're doing fine. I'm more curious as to what CA Aussieland is working on using the ETW engine.

The Brisbane office isn't working on TW games at all any more. They are now a separate entity within SEGA. Have been for a while, actually.

[pevergreen]

Really? I had no idea.

They the console mob are they?

Hmmm I wonder if they need a new phone system...we did look after THQ. :tongue:

[antisocialmunky]

The Brisbane office isn't working on TW games at all any more. They are now a separate entity within SEGA. Have been for a while, actually.

Well.... I'm not sure what that indicates but I guess that means longer waits between TW installments.

[Fisherking]

Well.... I'm not sure what that indicates but I guess that means longer waits between TW installments.

I don’t think that is what it means. CA of Australia has been working on console games. Meanwhile CA in the UK has been growing.

Most of the Company Profiles are a year or more old and list them as having 70 employees. That would be both offices...

Anyway they said they had over 70 people working on NTW after 1.5 came out.

Meanwhile they are still hiring, so if you are a genius programmer wanting to live in the UK then you might have a chance of a job.
:laugh4:

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I guess they figured that having complex code and then handing it over to other people unfamiliar with it wasn't exactly speeding things along.

[gardibolt]

The focus on eye candy requiring people to buy new rigs every few months is not helping them in this economy, I'm sure. I am finished buying TW games since I have yet to get ETW to run in more than slideshow fashion, despite meeting all minimums (canyourunit claims I should be able to run it fast, ha!) installing various video drivers, trying it on the lowest settings possible, etc. I can't even tell you whether the AI is any good because the game isn't playable. At all. :skull::skull::skull:

[Fisherking]

It is a little odd how this all goes.

It was the people without the killer rigs that seemed to have the least problems with the game.

I have a whole different set of problems running the game, but that came about from updating drivers and bios...

[loony]

I think CA is doing great. And correct from a business viewpoint.
1. They have great sales with Empire. The product is OK, lets face it. It is not great, even though it could have been had it spent 3 more months in development. Who cares, right? We paid for it, they got the money first and fixed the game somewhat only after.
2. As empire shows promise and TW has a history of making an expansion much better than the original (Kingdoms, BI), Napoleon will sell great as well. Morons like me will even pre-order it :)
3. Both CAI and BAI is good enough to give a new player a headache now. Really. It is good enough then. IF they can make it better for NTW, great, if they cannot - it is still OK, especially with the scripted campaign.
4. programmer here, programmer there. It is nice to find scapegoats to throw to the mob. Let them lynch the programmer and buy the next release. I DON'T believe a decent company does not have proper procedures to ensure than any member of the team is, ultimately, replaceable. A key person leaving could have resulted i a little havoc, a week lost? two weeks? not more
5. CA is a cash cow, no one in ones right mind will close it. However, this is a good move for the hardcore fans, as, ultimately, we love the TW series. We banter, but spend a lot of time playing TW and talking, and thinking about it. Make us feel our rants might lose us the next TW game and we shut up. And buy the next release. Everyone wins.
6. All blogs are PR. I have adviced several companies to make sure blog entries are reviewed by the PR people before anyone is allowed to write about their job. There are employment contracts to enforce that.

To sum up, SEGA is doing great:
a) the customer, generally, is happy
b) the customer base is expanded
c) there is a constant inflow of cash through DLC (smoothes cash flow)
d) the next game will bring in a lot of cash
e) the "listening to community" effort makes the company feel human, so everyone "understands"

As a hardcore fan, I would like to see a much better CAI/BAI and generally, more (a better game) for less cash.
I will, however buy the next game anyway, therefore, it appears, CA has a well balanced value proposition.