Were knights better than Islamic HC?

[econ21]

I have been reviewing the unit stats in the light of the hardware and was struck that Islamic heavy cavalry seem systematically inferior to Western knights in their charge bonus and melee factors. They tend to have a charge factor of 6, not 8, and a melee factor of 3 not 4 (or 4 not 5). Now, I can understand that often they might have had less armour than Western knights, but that would affect the armour and defence stats.

What I am wondering is whether there was some difference in the weaponry or fighting styles of the two types of horsemen. From patterns in the data, I think the charge factor CA assigned depends almost solely on the weapon. Did Islamic heavy cavalry use the lance couched or did they use it over-arm? Did they use a lighter lance (or spear) rather than a heavy lance?

The melee factor may also refer to the lance, but could be something to do with the size of the horses or type of swords.

My inclination would be to treat all lance armed cav of the same quality equally, so only assign lower stats to troops regarded as clearly above or below average ability. This is what is done in Gore's Medieval Warfare minatures rules.

Thanks for any advice.

[Hakonarson]

Ther were major differences in how European and most Islamic cavalry fought.

Mid-eastern lances weer genrally light, and part of a weapon system that included powerful composite bows for most cavalry. As such they were to be used when teh enemy was sufficiently disordered by archery.

And yes this applies to most Mid-eastern HEAVY cavalry too - they mostly used the Sassanian system of rapid stationary archery.

The lance could be couched, but was apparently as often used overarm or otehrwise not supported by the body - this speaks volumes for the lightness of the weapon.

European armour was heavier - you might think mail is mail, but not so - Europeans often wore doubled mail (2 links in every position instead of 1), and/or multiple coats of mail. They generally wore more extensive armour - completely encasing their bodies in mail by 1150, and moving onto plate.

Lastly of course European cavalry made charging with the couched lance an art form - it was their primary means of combat and their skills and defences were attuned to it. So was their mentaliity - they were prepared, indeed eager to fight at close quarters.

Mid-eastern cavalry weren't - at least not unles they had to, and then preferably after softening up the enemy with archery.

All the historical commentaries and the available facts agree that the charge of European knights could not be resisted by any Mid-Eastern cavalry.

[Kongamato]

Tell me about the Faris Cavalrymen. I have a feeling that there will be new Fast-rated Cavalry units in VI, and it would be interesting to see an HC unit, maybe with Teutonic Sergeant stats moving at a Fast speed with a bow. Perhaps the Faris will fill this position.

[CBR]

CA uses 2 lance types: The light lance and the heavy lance..the heavy has 2 more in charge compared to the light lance. That 2 extra could be viewed as a heavier weapon or different/better fighting technique.

They generally have less in attack because they belong to one troop class below knights.

Hmm sounds like you dont have the CA excel files?

http://www.3ddownloads.com/strateg....les.zip (http://www.3ddownloads.com/strategy-gaming/totalwar/FAQs/mtw/Xcel_Files_v11statsfiles.zip)

There you can see how CA calculated the unit stats/costs in MTW...and make your own changes if you want and save them.

CBR

[econ21]

Thanks guys, I am so glad I asked. I have not seen the Excel files and am eager to see what they contain. I've been looking at various army lists (from Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare and from DBM) and it looks like modding MTW to give more historical units should be possible. But knowing the logic behind MTWs stats is a big help, as they have already captured lot of historical flavour.

[CBR]

I changed the cost formulas and some of the tables in the CA excel, based more or less on Medieval Warfare unit costs. Could send you the file if you are interested..

CBR

[cugel]

"I changed the cost formulas and some of the tables in the CA excel, based more or less on Medieval Warfare unit costs. Could send you the file if you are interested.."

That's an interesting thought CBR, you really should consider uploading that file to the org to make it available for modders.

[econ21]

CBR, thanks - I'd be very interested to receive your modded file. My EM address is:
simon.appleton@nottingham.ac.uk
I must say that on looking at the Excel file, the unit stats are much more systematic than I had realised with very few "fudge" factors (eg the higher attack for later knights and making Chiv sergeants "missile" troop quality).

[CBR]

Ok then..I just found out there were a few things I never added.. I'll do that and send it asap.. its been 3 months since I worked on it.. but I think I still remember all the missing bits http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

CBR

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (cugel @ Mar. 04 2003,03:21)]That's an interesting thought CBR, you really should consider uploading that file to the org to make it available for modders.
Hm yeah guess I could upload it.. I also have my +6 morale stats and know Yuuki is playing a sp campaign with them and says it works nicely heh

CBR

[Michael the Great]

But,the question rises:we have two equally trained knight types,the first ones are fighting with lances and the second with swords.
Don't you think that sword armed cavalry shold have a better melee in general than lance cavalry?
Lances,altough they were very light just weren't as useful for close-quarters combat because it would be so much more difficult to point them at different enemyes in short time,altough they would give a better range than swords.
Anyway,no european cavary would fight with lances,they would just charge with them and then grab their swords.....
Or were there any cavalry types atually fighting with their lances after the charge????

[CBR]

Well in most cases "armed with lance" would really mean "armed with lance AND sword/mace/axe" so after the charge they would switch weapon and dont have a disadvantage against sword only cav.

CBR