Train bombed in Russia [Archive]

cegorach

12-01-2009, 17:07

Cheers !

Sad this. A major terrorist attack, leaving dozens dead.

Yes, this form of terrorism is close to the worst.

Russian authorities now suspect North Caucasian groups.

It is a problem because at least three groups of people could be participating in this attack (the Chechens/muslim militants, the neonazis or even which is most puzzling some local separatists - there was one, most likely fake announcement from the 'freedom fighters' demanding the independence of St.Petersburg...).

The train is an attractive target - ruling elit travells using it from St. Petersburg to Moscow - so called 'pieterscy' - so people brought t the capital with Putin and some of his closest allies and friends.

It means it was an attack against the elite of the Kremlin itself - not only against the rich and prosperous, but also against the Putin system itself and since it succeeded it is a powerful blow.

Or perhaps even a humilation because Putin and company promised security above else and the train should be under special protection.

In reality it wasn't - it could be observed during the rescue operation - shortages of equipment and people, lack of most basic help for a long time. Rather close the the avarage in Russian Federation, but the PUBLIC and the terrorists believed differently.

One thing strikes me: a similar attack on this same train narrowly failed two years ago. It was re-tried and succeeded this time. It reminds of the two efforts to bring down the Twin Towers. (Not two planes, but the failed van with explosives in 1994)

Yes, at that time the terrorists thought much smaller bomb will be enough - this time they were better prepared.

A hallmark of a specific kind terrorism?

Rather the fact the terrorists are learning and the Russian security agencies didn't.

Personally I am worried that once again it means some radical countermove in the Caucasus region.

The authorities will have to react somehow and I'd prefer they 've finally dealt with the worsening condition of the Russian police - the whistle-blowers'' accounts on YourTube and the numerous news about corruption and criminal activities of uniformed services sworn to protect the citizens are pretty horrific.

Perhaps something good will come from this, but during the last several months I became much more pessimistic about it or about any short-term positive changes in Russia in general.

I think it is more probable that the Kremlin will organise some spectacular action against the neo-nazi or something in the Caucasus (Daghestan, Ingushetia... damn the whole region became a warzone...) and another nonsense campaign about western imperialism plus a PR session with Mr.Putin sent to the Moon, diving in the Mariana Trench or saving an orphan from a bloodthirsty mutant bear while Mr. Medvedev will talk about another plan of modernisation and overtaking the USA...

One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.

P.S. I wonder how much the ORG changed since the last time I've been here.

Fragony

12-01-2009, 19:49

One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.

I wouldn't normally come to your aid but I have to admit that just isn't possible

oh, and welcome back to the trenches

Subotan

12-01-2009, 19:54

One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.

The train of thought that led to that idea must be confused by some sort of mental sickness.

Louis VI the Fat

12-01-2009, 19:59

:jumping::cheerleader::jumping::cheerleader::jumping::cheerleader::jumping:

Cegorach has returned!

and another nonsense campaign about western imperialism plus a PR session with Mr.Putin sent to the Moon, diving in the Mariana Trench or saving an orphan from a bloodthirsty mutant bear while Mr. Medvedev will talk about another plan of modernisation and overtaking the USA...Sounds familiar to the SuperSarko way of politics. :2thumbsup:

One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.Poland was right. Louis was wrong.

P.S. I wonder how much the ORG changed since the last time I've been here.The .org is going strong. The Backroom has changed lots. Not all of it for the better. To be honest, the Backroom is a bit of a shadow of its former self. Yes, I too am to blame.

I remember when it was the best political forum on the entire internet. Great days. The Backroom still has its moments and some great characters, but too many have left or barely post anymore.

Brenus

12-01-2009, 20:01

"I wouldn't doubt Putin or his cronies orchestrated it." Funny this, remind me something. Just put Bush instead of Putin...

Sarmatian

12-01-2009, 20:06

One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.

One! Really!? Out of 450,000 newspapers in Russia? No, it can't be... That's like... huge... I mean it's more than... none.

cegorach

12-01-2009, 21:18

:jumping::cheerleader::jumping::cheerleader::jumping::cheerleader::jumping:

Cegorach has returned!

Had to happen, eventually. Yes, I will say it - I am addict...:yes:

Sounds familiar to the SuperSarko way of politics. :2thumbsup:

True, but more boring, despite being somehow more imaginative -

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/bai.jpg

:2thumbsup:

The .org is going strong. The Backroom has changed lots. Not all of it for the better. To be honest, the Backroom is a bit of a shadow of its former self. Yes, I too am to blame.

I remember when it was the best political forum on the entire internet. Great days. The Backroom still has its moments and some great characters, but too many have left or barely post anymore.

Whatever, after a year of (limited) involvement in political discussions in Polish internet - as Law and Justice is stuck to suffer another election defeat its most vocal supporters are not even pathetic anymore, they are too bad for this. It is no fun anymore.
Add to that total tabloidisation of the media (just like everywhere else...), almost total domination of Tusk's Civic Platform and suicidal attitude of colourless left wing parties.

It is so boring despite media frenzy. It is more surreal than the American healthcare debate, but dull.

Even Swine Flu failed (people don't care) and recession forgot about Poland (some said we've screwed this crisis up).

I am not saying it is bad, but getting used to takes some time. :juggle2:

So I guess even those moments will be priceless.:yes: I must admit that the Camel Wars thread looks good for the beginning.

@Sarmatian

One Russian newspaper already managed to report that the terrorists were funded by... Poland.
One! Really!? Out of 450,000 newspapers in Russia? No, it can't be... That's like... huge... I mean it's more than... none.

I love you too Sarmatian.

But really it is like a never ending ritual also when coming from officials.

How was that, oh yes terrorist attack in Ingushetia were organised by the USA, the UK and Israel according to its current president.

I am not saying they are not entitled to some little scaremongering, everyone loves that.

Still...for the love of God they could abandon some most obvious cliches. It is like more grotesque repetition of Khruschov era propaganda.

It is the 21st century so they could at least find someone or something else...

Sarmatian

12-01-2009, 21:51

@Sarmatian

I love you too Sarmatian.

But really it is like a never ending ritual also when coming from officials.

How was that, oh yes terrorist attack in Ingushetia were organised by the USA, the UK and Israel according to its current president.

I am not saying they are not entitled to some little scaremongering, everyone loves that.

Still...for the love of God they could abandon some most obvious cliches. It is like more grotesque repetition of Khruschov era propaganda.

It is the 21st century so they could at least find someone or something else...

Don't worry mate. Despite our arguments and our disagreements, I like you and respect you. I look forward to boring everybody else when it happens again. And, let's face it, Poland deserves a better representative than Krook on the .Org... So, even though my post probably didn't sound like it, I'm glad you're back. So, officially, welcome back :balloon2:

On topic, I bet there's a newspaper in Russia that blames aliens for the attack, one that blames dwarves and two that insist it was a wrath of God.

That's the beauty of (semi)free press...

Evil_Maniac From Mars

12-01-2009, 22:04

"I wouldn't doubt Putin or his cronies orchestrated it." Funny this, remind me something. Just put Bush instead of Putin...

I doubt Putin did it, but Bush and Putin were very, very different leaders. Such as one being a quasi-dictator and one not being one.

cegorach

12-01-2009, 22:11

Don't worry mate. Despite our arguments and our disagreements, I like you and respect you. I look forward to boring everybody else when it happens again. And, let's face it, Poland deserves a better representative than Krook on the .Org... So, even though my post probably didn't sound like it, I'm glad you're back. So, officially, welcome back :balloon2:

Krook... alone... Need to digest the information...

On topic, I bet there's a newspaper in Russia that blames aliens for the attack, one that blames dwarves and two that insist it was a wrath of God.

That's the beauty of (semi)free press...

Of course, but I was more concerned about the tedious repetion of the same nonsense.

I am not really concerned that someone blamed Poland for something in Russia - that is expectable and happens on regulr basis from the time of Ivan the Terrible, just like threatening us with rockets (every year since 1993) - a part of neighbourhood and a local custom.
It is rather more disturbing that foreigners were/are/will be blamed and the truth about the attacks once again, most likely ( I wish I could say probably, but in this case I am pessimistic) will remain unknown.
It is Nord-Ost attack again and again and the corruption in the security agencies becomes worse while conflict in the Caucasus spreads to new regions.

I hope that things are getting worse only to get better, but as I said above I am much more pessimistic than 18 months ago.

Louis VI the Fat

12-01-2009, 22:32

I am not really concerned that someone blamed Poland for something in Russia Nothing to be concerned about indeed. I learned the Kremlin blames the Elysee too.

a newspaper in Russia blames dwarves

CrossLOPER

12-01-2009, 22:43

I doubt Putin did it, but Bush and Putin were very, very different leaders. Such as one being a quasi-dictator and one not being one.
He's talking about tinfoil hats there.

HoreTore

12-01-2009, 22:52

Some thoughts about this attack....

1. Does "Russian authorities suspect group x" actually mean anything at all? Remember the train bombing in Spain and who was blamed for it first? When the president of a large and respected EU member can lie his arse off when it comes to this, how can we honestly trust Putin and his corrupt gang? Does it mean anything at all when they blame it on the Chechens? Having the Chechens responsible is gold for Putin, as it would justify another round of terror and oppression in that region...

2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?

3. That aid was slow and inefficient is no surprise in Russia. It would've been a mystery if it actually worked like it should. People are so afraid of the consequences should they do screw up that they are too afraid to do anything at all.

Sarmatian

12-01-2009, 23:30

There's no shortage of suspects, that's for sure, but I think it's extremists/separatists.

2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?

This doesn't make sense really. If they are a part of his power base, if he and his associates have been nurturing them, why would they attack them? They would target minorities, human rights organizations, that sort of thing

It's also equally silly saying that Putin or someone close to him organized it to gain support. That would be extremely stupid thing to do. That's what dictators do when they're losing their grip, not when their support is sky-high. He'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I don't personally believe Putin would do such a thing any more than I believe 9-11 was organized by Bush, but for the sake of argument... Many people may think that Putin is nothing but a power-hungry nationalistic dictator but everyone would agree that he is not an idiot.

Will we know the truth? Will this be blamed on foreigners? Possibly, but I'd like to remind people of the Kursk story. The most advanced Russian submarine sank after a loud bang and American submarine was seen speeding away to nato waters immediately after that, followed by Russian planes who had to turn away when they reached foreign airspace. Submarine was put in a drydock and Russian officials were denied permission to inspect the outer hull of the submarine. It couldn't have been a military secret issue as that type of submarine was photographed many times and photographs were published in popular magazines.

It all looks like a perfect setup to blame it on the foreigners, but what did Putin do? He ordered an investigation that involved raising the hull of the submarine out of the water and assigned it bigger budget than entire Russian navy had got. The evidence they've got didn't point on a crash with another submarine, or didn't point conclusively enough and the government didn't pursue it.

I'm not saying this can't be misused for propaganda (as Cegorach said, corruption is quite rampant in Russia, especially in the police), but some people really need to learn to turn on their brains before going "ZOMG, evil Russians/Putin"...

Louis VI the Fat

12-01-2009, 23:43

It's also equally silly saying that Putin or someone close to him organized it to gain support. That would be extremely stupid thing to do. That's what dictators do when they're losing their grip, not when their support is sky-high. He'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Part of the popularity of Putin and Medvedev is based on their law-and-order image. On their being tough against terrorists.

This attack is a major dent in their reputation. It shows that Putin can't even protect his own, his own elite travelling between Petersburg and Moscow.

Centurion1

12-02-2009, 01:20

are there alot of neo-nazis in russia?

HoreTore

12-02-2009, 02:34

This doesn't make sense really. If they are a part of his power base, if he and his associates have been nurturing them, why would they attack them? They would target minorities, human rights organizations, that sort of thing

It would only happen if he has lost control over them, and that they are now angry with him. Also, they're attacking minorities in Russia every day, but why should that stop them from expanding their business? I can easily see them do both.

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe. Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

not trying to tickle your funny bone there, Sarmatian.... ~;)

cegorach

12-02-2009, 08:33

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe.

Hey, hey stop right there, I am from Eastern Europe and it is far from it. If anything the extreme right only rose in some countries or perhaps just became more noisy and easier to spot.

Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

Hungary is... a special case (Trianon Treaty still leaves some scars). Rise of the Jobbik is worrying, but exceptional when it comes to the whole region.

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

What an enlightened lecture it is... Wonderful.

I could explain all the little details to contradict this statement, but I would just say - it can be used to deal only with some countries, because only in some countries any or some of those reasons apply.

The far right is NOT on the rise, except in some countries - certainly in Hungary, but not in Poland (it pretty much doesn't exist as meaningful political force i.e. it wouldn't score above 2 % of votes in put together), it is weaker in Romania than earlier etc.

It is definetelly dangerous in Russia, disturbingly vocal in Ukraine and unusually strong in Hungary, but your description doesn't fit.

Of course there is strong prejudice against the Roma in Hungary, Romania, Slovakia and Czech Republic, of course there are anti-semites here and there, of course there are problems with immigrants wherever they appear (there were some problems with Chechens in Poland, but nothing serious), of course Turks are blamed in Bulgaria and Albanians in Serbia, but the only sizable problem inside the EU is in Hungary and with the treatment of the Roman in the four mentioned states.

Jobbik might be borderline anti-semitic, but Hungary is far, far behind France and other countries in Western Europe despite large Jewish community.

When it comes to this Russian Federation is on another planet - sadly I might add.

I would be more worried about certain western european states voting for extremists and blaming much of their worries on immigrants.

cegorach

12-02-2009, 08:54

Hell, I will answer this one too...

Some thoughts about this attack....

1. Does "Russian authorities suspect group x" actually mean anything at all? Remember the train bombing in Spain and who was blamed for it first? When the president of a large and respected EU member can lie his arse off when it comes to this, how can we honestly trust Putin and his corrupt gang? Does it mean anything at all when they blame it on the Chechens? Having the Chechens responsible is gold for Putin, as it would justify another round of terror and oppression in that region...

They've just took the responsibility for the attack.

2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?

Neo-nazis - not really. Xenophobes do, but to the neonazis he is too soft.

Russian governement clearly tolerates and supports some xenophobic ideas and movements, but that is still not too close to neonazism.

3. That aid was slow and inefficient is no surprise in Russia. It would've been a mystery if it actually worked like it should. People are so afraid of the consequences should they do screw up that they are too afraid to do anything at all.

Nope, it simply is this way. Sadly despite frequent disasters not much has changed, in some cases nothing except the size of the bribes.

When it comes to the help in case of a disaster it is especially disturbing that the people do not believe the state will help them. There is a meaningful difference in public perception between the the case of Kursk submarine years ago (popular opinion was that the authorities attempted to help, but had no people and no equipment) and the water power plant disaster a couple months ago ( popular opinion was that the authorities decided to do nothing to avoid unpleasant questions from surviving witnesses).

The whole system is corrupt, inefficient and close to breaking down and everybody knows that, but the fact it was the same with the train used by the Russian elite only reveals that in more shocking proportions.
If anything the ordinary Russian pupulation did expect that the rich and the powerful will be better protected, so I guess did the terrorists and the fact it wasn't leaves the Kremlin more humilated than it was expected.

Louis VI the Fat

12-02-2009, 13:02

It's Count Doku!!

A North Caucasus Islamist group has claimed responsibility for a bomb that killed 26 people on a Moscow-to-St Petersburg train, a website says.

The website claim on Kavkazcenter.com said last Friday's attack was carried out by the "Caucasian Mujahadeen" on the orders of its leader, Doku Umarov.

It's 2009. Terrorists have websites too. Here is the website of what the other three quarters of the world reads:
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2009/12/02/11221.shtml

I am so going to join their forum and troll 'em a bit.

Viking

12-02-2009, 13:06

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks.

Uhm, that's not true. What is true is that a lot of the organized crime these days is committed by Eastern Europeans entering the country with criminal intent.

Sarmatian

12-02-2009, 13:06

It's Count Doku!!

It's 2009. Terrorists have websites too. Here is the website of what the other three quarters of the world reads:
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2009/12/02/11221.shtml

I am so going to join their forum and troll 'em a bit.

I'm not so sure about these terrorist forums. When you break the rules to they blow you up or ban you?

Louis VI the Fat

12-02-2009, 13:28

I'm not so sure about these terrorist forums. When you break the rules to they blow you up or ban you?Girl. :smash:

Me and Dave are going in.

I PM'd Tribesy too.

Subotan

12-02-2009, 14:23

I would troll them, but I can't find their forum.

Maybe that's for the best.

Sarmatian

12-02-2009, 15:10

Girl. :smash:

Me and Dave are going in.

I PM'd Tribesy too.

What? Stay behind and let a Frenchie and a Yank grab all the glory? No way!

Besides, everybody knows that after Belgians, Serbs are the bravest people in the world

Edit: Can't seem to find the forum either.

cegorach

12-02-2009, 15:43

I would troll them, but I can't find their forum.

Maybe that's for the best.

Perhaps it is a good thing - they could troll you. Personally. :hide:

@Louis VI the Fat

Slightly off topic. Several years ago I was amongs some guys who were supposed to meet one of Chechen leaders. It didn't happen*, but the name looks quite similar.

Unless it did - which of course has nothing to do with my absence for some time...

Furunculus

12-02-2009, 15:47

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe. Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

I wouldn't say that was true of Poland.

I wouldn't say that is how Brits consider the Polish either.

rvg

12-02-2009, 19:43

It's the Chechens....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8390258.stm

rory_20_uk

12-03-2009, 13:43

I wouldn't say that was true of Poland.

I wouldn't say that is how Brits consider the Polish either.

I don't really think of Eastern Europeans in general and Poles in particular as anything but extremely industrious and people who very quickly assimilate in a positive way into society. I only wish we could send a load of English people back.

I have read articles that state Albanians run criminal gangs - but then there are many native gangs, so I hardly think that this is true of all Albanians.

~:smoking:

HoreTore

12-07-2009, 22:01

Uhm, that's not true. What is true is that a lot of the organized crime these days is committed by Eastern Europeans entering the country with criminal intent.

What isn't true? That the eastern europeans are all crooks and thieves, or that we westerners regard them all as thieves and crooks?

The first one is false, the second is sadly true.

The far right is NOT on the rise, except in some countries - certainly in Hungary, but not in Poland (it pretty much doesn't exist as meaningful political force i.e. it wouldn't score above 2 % of votes in put together)

I have no problem with putting your twin president and his cronies in the "loony nationalist"-bin. And he was elected, was he not? Poland is also engaged in some very petty bickering with Germany over WW2(oh noes they're making a museum!!!1!11). Until Poland decides to just get over it, I'm placing the entire country in the loony bin.

Fact is; fascism is on the rise all over europe, eastern europe is no exception to that. Italy, Hungary and Russia are the worst.

Viking

12-07-2009, 23:16

What isn't true? That the eastern europeans are all crooks and thieves, or that we westerners regard them all as thieves and crooks?

The first one is false, the second is sadly true.

Neither is fully true. You bet most would become pretty uncertain if they were to draw a line on a map of Europe to define the west and the east; and if they heard a name, they would have troubles locating it. Those who are sure about what they mean probably think most foreigners are thieves and crooks, anyway.

Until Poland decides to just get over it, I'm placing the entire country in the loony bin.

It appears that what you mentioned above applies to you to some degree, if to no one else..

Devastatin Dave

12-08-2009, 04:19

I hope no prayer rugs got burnt in this attack. i really hate seeing that.

cegorach

12-08-2009, 08:17

I've ignored that before, but right now I am not in the mood.

What isn't true? That the eastern europeans are all crooks and thieves, or that we westerners regard them all as thieves and crooks?

The first one is false, the second is sadly true.

I guess that might be true for you. Let's not generalise.

I have no problem with putting your twin president and his cronies in the "loony nationalist"-bin.

So ?

And he was elected, was he not?

And his popularity ratings are around 20 %... Go figure.

Many people are leceted in specific conditions and for wrong reasons and the voters have to suffer such mistakes like this.

Of course I am certain that in your country that never happened. I am sure of that. :inquisitive:

Poland is also engaged in some very petty bickering with Germany over WW2(oh noes they're making a museum!!!1!11).

You clearly know nothing about it. Currently it is German problem - as you could notice (if you cared to read something). That is a problem with certain lady who is making a political issue and is opposed by EVERY single German party except Bavarian CSU and a part of christian democrats.

In Poland her presence is opposed from the beginning, not the idea of such a museum.
I don't like her as well and feel inclined to agree with people such as one Wladyslaw Bartoszewski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wladyslaw_Bartoszewski).

But who is he ? Just another loonatic uncomparable with certain HoreTore from the Internet !

Just see his biography - Polish politician (so loonatic), social activist (probably meaningless), journalist (wrote a few texts for sure), writer (we know who are those writers anway), historian (anybody can claim that), Auschwitz concentration camp inmate (people exaggerate, it wasn't so bad as they say), soldier of Armia Krajowa (of what ?), Polish underground activist (so hid doing nothing), participant of the Warsaw Uprising (in what ?), twice the Minister of Foreign Affairs (by mistake), chevalier of the Order of the White Eagle (and what is that ?), honorary citizen of Israel (they are giving that to anybody) and other rubbish, awarded by some loosers from Germany, Austria, Israel, Poland, Britain etc.

Until Poland decides to just get over it, I'm placing the entire country in the loony bin.

Untill you revoke your statements I am doing the same to you.

I believe that is a bit more rational although the damage surely irreparable.

Fact is; fascism is on the rise all over europe, eastern europe is no exception to that. Italy, Hungary and Russia are the worst.

So you've changed your opinion then, in some part at least ? Nice to see that, but I am afraid you would have to tell that to our fascists.
I doubt that they will buy it, though.

Never won anything in any elections and never appeared in any political rankings.

They might be glad that still some foreigner observes their 'rise'.

I guess it is possible, after all if 100 people supported you among 10 000 000 and now 125 do - it is indeed a dramatic, 25 % rise !

Fear their wrath ! Bow before their anger ! :laugh4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNUWKtSZzp4&feature=related

Mr.Kononowicz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzysztof_Kononowicz) is the most successful candidate from the fascist and quasi-fascist parties in Poland EVER. 1.9% in local elections in Bialystok.

Forgive me, but for a while I will ignore this danger. I know that is foolish and it is certain that candidates such as Mr.Kononowicz will dominate our political scene, soon, very soon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4h71IRUjYA).

cegorach

12-08-2009, 08:24

Anyway, I guess the topic is pretty much closed.

We will learn nothing useful in close future about the attack.

HoreTore

12-08-2009, 08:59

Closed?

Now that I once again have managed to rile up nationalistic feelings? What a shame....:clown:

Neither is fully true. You bet most would become pretty uncertain if they were to draw a line on a map of Europe to define the west and the east; and if they heard a name, they would have troubles locating it. Those who are sure about what they mean probably think most foreigners are thieves and crooks, anyway.

Try reading the reader comments on the debate section of VG.

cegorach

12-08-2009, 09:17

Closed?

Now that I once again have managed to rile up nationalistic feelings? What a shame....:clown:

?? Sure feelings - disgust, distaste and disbelief.

So it is partially true making it most truthful and undisputed statement you've made in this thread.:yes:

I doubt that systaing an entire topic just to improve that to anger and outrage is pretty much pointless, but don't worry you can always start a blog. :2thumbsup:

Viking

12-08-2009, 11:37

Try reading the reader comments on the debate section of VG.

No thanks. :laugh4:

I was though thinking it was a bit odd that the local buss company back West desired to hire thieves and crooks en masse. More than a bit odd actually...

HoreTore

12-08-2009, 18:44

?? Sure feelings - disgust, distaste and disbelief.

So it is partially true making it most truthful and undisputed statement you've made in this thread.:yes:

I doubt that systaing an entire topic just to improve that to anger and outrage is pretty much pointless, but don't worry you can always start a blog. :2thumbsup:

If you could answer without the personal attacks I could respond to your posts, you know ~;)

@Viking: You're from Bergen. It doesn't count as part of civilization, sorry.... Also, I never said that we all do it, I don't and neither do a lot of others. But saying that a lot of people don't consider eastern europeans as criminals is like saying a lot of us don't consider muslims as fanatical terrorists or africans as rapists. It's both sad and true.

There's a reason why eastern europeans are among the groups of people FRP wants out of the country. And it ain't because we're such a loving country, Viking... except when we want to exploit poles as slaves of course....