View Full Version : Individuals with values you respect the most.
NinjaKilla
11-25-2002, 23:33
I can't read on the bus cos it makes me feel sick. Instead I either think about essays, or I think about questions as above.
Gonna keep this short cos I'm Hank Marvin' but here's my five:-
Napoleon - greatest leader in history. Not just for his military achievements but also for his political work.
Thomas Cochrane - a British naval hero who's outstanding quality was his bravery and calculated risk-taking.
Carl von Clausewitz - 19th military philosopher who's ideas still dictate modern strategic thinking. A genius.
Ronaldo - for a couple of years we saw the greatest footballer the world has ever seen. After a serious injury he is battling back.
Hmm need to think a a fifth... someone who helped people rather than killed them... hmmm
Who do you most admire (and don't say my mum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)?
Gotta be Bll Gates.
Started off by writing a BASIC compiler for the old MITS Altair...and now owns the largest software corporation in the world.
Rosacrux
11-26-2002, 14:12
Inferno
you have a rather dissapointing value set, if your hero is Billy Gates... and you have also a rather misinformed opinion on his start... quite wrong.
Kaynes should be my hero. A great man, saved the game for the "free world" back in the 20's, when he came up with the only way to salvage capitalism and drag it out the dead (socially and economically) end capitalism ended up because of it's limitations.
Based on personal values, there are millions of people out there who deserve our respect and admiration, but they never make headlines.
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Nov. 26 2002,07:12)]Inferno
you have a rather dissapointing value set, if your hero is Billy Gates... and you have also a rather misinformed opinion on his start... quite wrong.
Kaynes should be my hero. A great man, saved the game for the "free world" back in the 20's, when he came up with the only way to salvage capitalism and drag it out the dead (socially and economically) end capitalism ended up because of it's limitations.
Based on personal values, there are millions of people out there who deserve our respect and admiration, but they never make headlines.
A "rather disappointing value set"? In your opinion, yes? Personally I believe the person who brought computers to the masses should be revered. You wouldn't be on this forum now if not for him (MTW wouldn't exist.)
Misinformed on his start? I feel you are again wrong.
http://www.mackido.com/History/Gates_a_Genius.html
Life history of Bill Gates. Maybe you should read it before telling me I don't know how Gates started?
If you are too lazy to read it, allow me to post an extract:
"Bill Gates (after dropping out of college) and a friend (Paul Allen) started making software (Mid 70's). The first thing they did was steal (uh, borrow?) some computer time from a college and they implemented Basic (a Language) for the Altair Computer (made by MITS). Basic had been around for many years before Bill implemented a version of it . They did provide a service, but it is not that impressive technically to take public domain code from one machine and port it to another. Yawn. It was also very questionable (ethically) to sell a language who's definition was in public domain, and develop it on computer time borrowed from a school. But I don't think ethics bother Bill Gates too much -- and in the over all scheme of things, this was one of the lesser of the "moral gray areas"
Moral of this post: don't flame someone unless you A) know they are wrong (which you blatantly didn't) or B) Like bring proven wrong in public.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Nov. 26 2002,07:12)]Inferno
you have a rather dissapointing value set, if your hero is Billy Gates... and you have also a rather misinformed opinion on his start... quite wrong.
Kaynes should be my hero. A great man, saved the game for the "free world" back in the 20's, when he came up with the only way to salvage capitalism and drag it out the dead (socially and economically) end capitalism ended up because of it's limitations.
Based on personal values, there are millions of people out there who deserve our respect and admiration, but they never make headlines.
And, by the way, in my eyes, any advocate of capitalism deserves disdain, not praise.
Rosacrux
11-26-2002, 15:22
Huh? Interesting, that your statement
Quote[/b] ]And, by the way, in my eyes, any advocate of capitalism deserves disdain, not praise. contradicts with your praise on Gates... Gates is a multibillionaire, thus definitely one of those Keynes tried to regulate with his introduction of the economic system that was named after his (Keynesian). The New Deal was based on Keynes and also the economical policy of the west up until Reaganomics and Thatchernomics arrived (early 80s). It "saved" capitalism's arse by adopting certain socialist elements (wellfare, regulated private sector, large public sector etc. etc.) in the capitalist society. Either that or corporate terrorism, which was the case before 1930.
I am not flaming you (flaming Inferno? Now, that's futile) I just think you should read other sources about Bill Gates start rather than something entitled "Bill Gates a genious" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
If it wasn't for Billy (who did good only to his own pocket and bank account, by aquiring in a ...rather suspicius way the vault of his career - DOS - and by ripping off better OS thereafter) there were thousands of others who'd brought "the computers to the masses", and probably without the hassle that DOS caused and still causes (to those unlucky ones having to work with Win 98 or Me).
If you really want to give praise to someone, praise IBM. They opened the PC standard for everyone.
Quote[/b] ]I am not flaming you (flaming Inferno? Now, that's futile) I just think you should read other sources about Bill Gates start rather than something entitled "Bill Gates a genious"
Point fairly taken, although you will find many accounts of this on the web, not just this one. I gurantee you that what I wrote about Gates is true.
Quote[/b] ]If it wasn't for Billy (who did good only to his own pocket and bank account, by aquiring in a ...rather suspicius way the vault of his career - DOS - and by ripping off better OS thereafter) there were thousands of others who'd brought "the computers to the masses", and probably without the hassle that DOS caused and still causes (to those unlucky ones having to work with Win 98 or Me).
It is, of course, possible that someone else would have brought out an OS that is easy enough for complete novices to use yet has enough power for professionals. However, MS was the company that did it first. (And, BTW, I'm a computer programmer, and 98 is still my favourite version of Windows. If you would like, I can provide many reasons as to why it is better than 2K/XP, you just have to ask. :-))
Quote[/b] ]If you really want to give praise to someone, praise IBM. They opened the PC standard for everyone.
Actually, IBM *deliberately* used the slowest, worst chip they could find for their first PC. Anything better would have made the PC as powerul as their own Micro Computer, which they certainly did not want. If IBM had put in the best chip (which was at least 8 times faster), computers would be quicker and far easier to build today.
I'm not trying to get into a point making war here, Rosacrux, I'm just saying that you shouldn't say that someone is wrong unless you are 100% sure.
Rosacrux
11-26-2002, 16:07
You are not working for MS now, are you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But, seriously, there are at least a hundred Bill Gates bios out there, most of them tell what I consider the truth, while others are praise and only praise (as the one you provided).
I don't consider the man a paradigm of a sort, even though I have to admire that he became multibillionaire while he started up only as a millionaire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But that's it. In no possible way he could be called a role model for anyone except wannabes R&F (rich and famous).
BTW I am not a programmer myself, just a technical editor for a comp magazine but... why on earth is Win98 your favorite OS to programm for? That's the most twisted thing I've ever heard by a programmer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
rasoforos
11-26-2002, 16:08
rosacrux are you an economist or something? not many paople know kaynes.
Rosacrux
11-26-2002, 16:29
Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Nov. 26 2002,09:08)]rosacrux are you an economist or something? not many paople know kaynes.
You know, that's precisely the problem with "many people": They know too litle. That's why they accept Bozos like Reagan or Thatcher stating ad hoc that "the economy is not good, it has to be more free" and ...there come the neoclassical and the Chicago school and the neo-lessaiz faire guys. And we end up with 1% of the planet population owning 99% of the planets wealth.
BAH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
No, not an economics expert of any kind, I am just interested into economics, politics, sociology and history.
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Nov. 26 2002,09:07)]You are not working for MS now, are you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But, seriously, there are at least a hundred Bill Gates bios out there, most of them tell what I consider the truth, while others are praise and only praise (as the one you provided).
I don't consider the man a paradigm of a sort, even though I have to admire that he became multibillionaire while he started up only as a millionaire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But that's it. In no possible way he could be called a role model for anyone except wannabes R&F (rich and famous).
BTW I am not a programmer myself, just a technical editor for a comp magazine but... why on earth is Win98 your favorite OS to programm for? That's the most twisted thing I've ever heard by a programmer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
If I was working for MS I'd be sacked for saying I prefer 98. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
And a small subset of my reasons for this preference are:
It allows direct hardware access.
It has full VESA support.
It can boot into 8MB ram.
The core files can fit on three floppy disks.
Win2K and XP will not run a host of games that were written before they were released...98 supports DOS games and Windows games equally. (Dungeon Keeper 2, for instance, will not work on 2K)
Quote[/b] ]But that's it. In no possible way he could be called a role model for anyone except wannabes R&F (rich and famous).
Or anyone looking to start their own software company (i.e. me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)
Quote[/b] (Inferno @ Nov. 26 2002,08:58)]Actually, IBM *deliberately* used the slowest, worst chip they could find for their first PC. Anything better would have made the PC as powerul as their own Micro Computer, which they certainly did not want. If IBM had put in the best chip (which was at least 8 times faster), computers would be quicker and far easier to build today.
Brilliant,
Since the goal IBM had for the PC was to have an economical home version of their business machines, it makes sense that they would use a slower and less costly alternative, yes?
If they used thier fastest chip, sure the machine would run almost as fast as their business machines...but it would also end up costing almost as much.
It is almost like complaining that the Chevy Sprint does not come with a V8 engine and leather seats...
The fact is that IBM invented the concept of the home PC and they deserve credit for that at least - even if you are not happy with the method in which they did so.
IBM is actually responsible for a great many innovations in the computer industry - even today. I have always said that their greatest problem has always been their marketing department, which has screwed them at every turn. You are all impressed with Windows 98? Look at what OS/2 was doing when you were pounding away with that piece of crap called Windows 3.0.
Jaguara
It's hard to know the values of historical figures but here goes:
First to come to mind was Jimmy Carter. An ex-president who continued to work for the common good. Whatever your opinion on his presidency, he didn't just play golf or schmooze on some corporate board when he was done.
A general often over looked is George C Marshall. His achievements as US army chief of staff during WWII were amazing. He was so valuable that he was denied command of Overlord to keep him at his post. After the war, as US secretary of state he led the program to bring aid and developement to a devastated continent, better known as The Marshall Plan. Again you can disagree with his politics and the effectiveness of his programs but I truly admire his public service.
Basil Bunting, my favorite poet (1900-1985). Look him up. A younger contemperary of Pound from Northumbria who didn't care what people thought or what they wanted from poetry.. One of his major works, Chomei at Toyama, is a translation/reworking from a classical Japanese source that some of the forum members might like.
Archbishop Oscar Romero, El Salvador. Though he came from the elite he spoke out against the oppression from the right and was gunned down for it. He could've just kept silent or deplored 'all violence', but he didn't.
Medger Evers. Black civil rights organizer gunned down in '63. His murderers were just recently brought to justice. He should be put forward as a role model for all american kids, but sadly isn't.
The world is good at producing martyrs.
NinjaKilla
11-26-2002, 20:18
Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Nov. 26 2002,09:08)]rosacrux are you an economist or something? not many paople know kaynes.
Do you mean kEynes?
I'm not disagreeing with your opinion at to his contribution to economics because I have read little old skool political science. All I know about him is that his demand management theories have been outmoded by supply-side solutions. But like I say he must have been talking sense cos every modern economics books are based on his work.
rasoforos
11-26-2002, 20:19
rosacrux : well kaynes was ok for a post-war economy where development is fast but it didnt really do well the last 20-30 years when economies are radically different than post-war. Even neo-caynessian theories cannot covered certain aspects of the economies and more or less adopt some classical theory. neoclassical might not be perfect but it is the best available to my opinnion. A book you might like about this debate is 'controversies of macroeconomics' ....but anyhows kaynesian theory help many nations rebuild themselves post-war so he is a great personality. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
about bill gates: well he is a great , and he is a genious , he managed to become the richest person in the planet ( some years ago he was by far the richest ,now he is still but others got closer) , he managed to create a de facto monopoly that is not only strong but actually is welcome by many people , he keeps this monopoly from being broken , he can sell his stuff at crasy prices no matter the quality ,yes he practically stole the idea for windows BUT GOT AWAY WITH IT , to conclude he OUTSMARTS US ALL , since all of us here , at a point gave money to BG. NO hes not a computer genious , No i dont believe the pc revolution wouldnt happen in BG hadnt made windows but Yes i believe that when it comes to money this person is a genious.
P.S when i reach bill gates status i ll be selling worst stuff than he is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif...at a more expensive price
Sjakihata
11-26-2002, 20:38
GANDHI
Kongamato
11-27-2002, 21:38
Personally, I choose Patton for one reason; he knows how to win. I find his "must win" attitude admirable. Without the kind of spirit leaders like him had, who knows how long the war would have lasted.
Few know about the work of Mr. Keynes, even fewer can spell his name.
Tachikaze
11-27-2002, 23:02
After NinjaKilla's mum, I would have to list:
Three Lawyers from American history --
Clarence Darrow
Thurgood Marshall
Ralph Nader
The members of taiko group Kodo
Author A.A. Milne
Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.
deejayvee
11-28-2002, 08:04
Dr Timothy Leary.
Rosacrux
11-28-2002, 11:35
Rasoforos
That's a fallacy at best. Up until the late 70s, and despite the huge oil crisis in the same decade, development in Europe-USA-Japan and in the Far East was steady and satisfying, and also it involved lots of people - meaning we had a spread of wealth into the masses. The only price we had to pay was high inflation - frankly, a very little price compared with what we pay now.
After the introduction of Reaganomics-Thatchernomics (both inspired by the Chicago school and the neo-classicals, as we know) the new doctrine for the public sector is to minimize it's spendings and leave the development and economic growth to the private sector. Also, the only role of Central Institutions is to fiddle with the interest rates and that is bullshit - there is no way to convince me that only the fluctuation of interest rates can move an economy.
The adoption of the Neo-classical model has led to the demise of inflation, but also it has led to fabulous ups and downs, to inflated stock exchanges (that deflate rather stunningly, like the .com bubble burst for instance - not to mention Athens http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ) and most of all, to the absolute dependance of the worker upon the various market fluctuations, which means insecurity and also the gathering of wealth into the hands of the few. In the past two decades, the perc. of the people who have the 90% of the wealth in USA for instance, has gone down from 20%+ to less than 5% - higher even than what we saw in the times of Corporate Terrorism (before 1930). Can you say social and economical instability? Well, that's the deal. We are going down and we are going fast down.
Of course the Keynesian model without an adjustment to the current situation would fail blatantly, but there are numerous adjustments already introduced by Neo-Keynesian economists and I think we should switch to this model before it is too late.
Hosakawa Tito
11-28-2002, 16:52
I like Tachi's choices and would like to add George Washington to that list. He had foibles, like any of us, but after the defeat of the British in the American Revolution he could have become king/emperor of the US. In fact the majority of representatives in the Continental Congress clamored for and would have supported that to happen. George Washington refused, not wanting to replace one system of hereditary tyranny with another. It takes a wise and humble man to resist that temptation.
I'd say Lord Welington- he respected and admired his opponent- Napoleon and led the British to Victory.
NinjaKilla
12-01-2002, 17:09
LOL the problem with Wellington was that he was a bloody politician and inevitably played all the games that we associate with them. I think Wellington's most admirable quality was the way he was loved by his men. Although he thought that they were all ruffians his approach to warfare emphasised the value that he put on the individual soldier (something that Napoleon did not share.) I'm not sure though if you could say that he admired Napoleon, he shared most of Europe's view that he was a dangerous, aggressive imperialist whose actions could upset the balance of power in Europe. Rather I would say he respected his opponent... and who bloody wouldn't eh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
LOL
Ok- maybe admired is too strong a word- respected is a more apt word http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And he did love his men and respected the civillian population of Europe - The French didn't and were therefore targets of Spanish Guerrillas.
ICantSpellDawg
12-08-2002, 05:40
Rex Combo………Elastic Scrotum: Master-Thespian from the acclaimed theatrical presentation: "AN*L RAMA"
redrooster
12-10-2002, 11:19
gandhi
Hirosito
12-13-2002, 19:38
Quote[/b] (NinjaKilla @ Nov. 25 2002,16:33)]Ronaldo - for a couple of years we saw the greatest footballer the world has ever seen. After a serious injury he is battling back.
How can you say that?? that sob basically stopped playing football in 1998 and was paid full wages and medical expenses by inter milan for 4 years and then thanked them by leaving the club in 2002. i used to love the guy and i still respect him as a footballer ( i was happy for him at the WC2002) but i despise his character.
Knight_Yellow
12-13-2002, 21:48
Its gotta be allan turing...
i bet no1 has heard of him but he helped crack the "enigma" code during ww2 by inventing the worlds first computer, he deserves respect for those two reasons.
His efforts in cracking the enigma code saved thousands and without him we would not be discussing this as there wouldnt be any such thing as a computer.
NinjaKilla
12-13-2002, 22:46
Quote[/b] (Hirosito @ Dec. 13 2002,12:38)]How can you say that?? that sob basically stopped playing football in 1998 and was paid full wages and medical expenses by inter milan for 4 years and then thanked them by leaving the club in 2002. i used to love the guy and i still respect him as a footballer ( i was happy for him at the WC2002) but i despise his character.
Well, no way can you hold against him the fact that he was on full wages while he was injured - the club chose to sign the contract. As for him leaving, I don't know the full details, but as someone who is suffering from a serious football injury (I'll never play again), I can tell you that it screws with your head. Like him I kept involved with football, but there comes a point when you gotta start afresh. In light of his recovery I think it was wise for him to move and make a fresh start (besides Inter have been looking to offload him for months now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Papewaio
12-14-2002, 00:07
Actually the more I read about Voltaire the more I like him. He actually makes the french look good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
Socrates is also up there with his thinking.
I think I will actually have to sit down and read some of their works rather then just snippets and one liners of their lives.
Rosacrux
12-14-2002, 01:11
Wouldn't it be marvellous to have a sort of a "philosophers duke it out" contest? I mean, there could be the Greek team, with Aristotle, Platon, Socrates, Epictetus, Plotinus etc, against the German team with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Kant, Hegel etc. the French team with Voltaire, Russeau, Descartes etc. and all the other good folks around... would be really something http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
NinjaKilla
12-14-2002, 02:18
Voltaire was a funny bugger. Seems that he was just out to irritate people. If I remember right, he had quite a lengthy correspondance with Frederick the Great until Voltaire actually went to Sans Souci. The end result was Voltaire dashing for the border with half of Frederick library, being pursued by his guards. Apparently the two carried on writing amicably, though they never met again...
Papewaio
12-14-2002, 02:46
Same with Socrates http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ... can you see why I like them so much.
Red Peasant
12-14-2002, 13:38
The Socrates we have is merely a rhetorical construct of Plato's. If he shared (which he probably did) Plato's idealised, authoritarian, quasi-fascist political views (ie anti-democratic) then I would not have found him particularly appealing. Saying that, however, such is the greatness of Plato's written achievement that Socrates does emerge as a credible and attractive figure through the long series of dialogues in which he appears to speak.
chilliwilli
12-15-2002, 00:34
Jaco Pastorius- My fellow Floridian He frew up and lived 20 minutes away from my house. One of the best musicians of all time and hands down the best bass player who ever lived. He was so innovative and unique kind of like Jimi Hendrix, but in a such way that it felt like he wasn't influenced by anything at all. For instance the story of his fretless bass, He bought a 1962 Fender jazz bass from a local pawn shop and to make it a fretless he ripped out all of the frets with plyers, filled the gaps with wood putty, and coated the entire neck with about 10 layers of marine epoxy to protect it against the strings. It would stay with him throughout his career. He also did other crafty things like use chicken grease to lubricate his fingers, so he could play faster and move more fluently on the neck and sometimes he would powder the stage with baby powder before shows so he could do funky James Brown steps while playing. No one knew about the powder at the time though. He didn't want anyone too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. His compostions are amazing, passionate, and rank up there with the greats. He brought Jazz, Classical, and Caribbaean music to a primarily rock audience and at the same time bridged the gaps between them. I admire him for his natural vitality, he was wild and untamed, but sensitive and deep at the same time. He was always outdoors. He was also a devout catholic which I admire not because I'm that in to religion, but because I like how someone so cool could be into something so wholesome. Most popular musicians would be afraid to admit such things fearing they would ruin their image. Always up and running, he never relied on drugs(he didn't even drink alcohol) as most musicians do until his psychological problems took hold and he began to use alcohol and cocaine heavily as a form of self medication as most manic-depressives do. Unfortunately, he was almost impossible to help despite being admitted to a mental institution more than once and as his behaivor became more and more eratic. The music world abandoned him when he needed them most and he was forced to panhandle his bass playing around Washington Square Park in New York and later down in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. He was black listed in all of the local clubs and had no means to support himself. His situation got even worse. He would walk into clubs, intentionally pick fights with the largest guys in the place, and he would not even fight back. In 1987 he was beaten brutally outside of a Ft. Lauderdale club by the bouncer, who was a blackbelt. Almost every bone in his face was broken and he was put into a coma and was kept on life support. Amazingly he began to recover while in the come and doctors said that he should ahve be able to sit up and drink in bed by the next week, but that all changed when a blood vessel in his brain bursted. He lost all activity in his brain and was taking off life support on Sept. 21. Miraculously, his heart beat for another 30 minutes. I reccomend anyone who has ever listned to music to get his albums especially bass players. You can learn an unbelievable amount from his recordings. Just ask and tell me what styles of music you like and I'll make a recomendation. He has played many different styles.
Jim Morisson- He is mostly portrayed as a drunk and a jerk which is true, but their is so much more to his character. Besides his work with The Doors, I love his poetry. I found out recently that his poetry was studied in Duke university and other colleges which I thought was interesting since popular musicians of the modern era don't get exposure in a college classroom or other intellectual places especially for something like poetry. Extremely intelligent man(IQ was in the genius range). He a little pompous, but was not a know it all genius like most are. He was always interested in expanding his mind and read mostly history, poetry, and philosophy. Oh and speaking of philosophy(I noticed your philosopher "dream team" Rosacrux http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.) he got most of his ideas from Nietzsche which is the main reason he started using psychedlic drugs. I don't admire all of his characteristics just a few. Also a wealth of legends associated with him, some of which are actually true. They are very interesting.
Tamerlane- An Enlightned conquered. He not only forged one of the largest empires of his time, but he was also an unbelievably intellignet man. He would invite scholars and other learned men to his empire and debate with them over things ranging from the correct interpretation of The Koran to warfare. Of course being part Mongol, most poeple of the time(and many people today) saw him as an uncivilized barbarian. I'm amazed that someone from such a background as The Chagtai Khanate could become so learned and be interested in building things of beauty. He is certainly one of the more complete individuals in history. He was also a rutheless conquerer and he was like Genghis Khan in many ways, a very complex individual.
Mr Frost
12-16-2002, 01:31
ME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
chilliwilli
12-16-2002, 02:57
Hehe, short, but informative post. Nicely done http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.
King James I
03-15-2003, 03:53
Ghandi
Archbishop Desmond Tutu
Mother Teresa
And all those other people who make sacrifices even though their work isn't recognized.
LordMonarch
03-16-2003, 20:09
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Nov. 28 2002,04:35)]Rasoforos
That's a fallacy at best. Up until the late 70s, and despite the huge oil crisis in the same decade, development in Europe-USA-Japan and in the Far East was steady and satisfying, and also it involved lots of people - meaning we had a spread of wealth into the masses. The only price we had to pay was high inflation - frankly, a very little price compared with what we pay now.
After the introduction of Reaganomics-Thatchernomics (both inspired by the Chicago school and the neo-classicals, as we know) the new doctrine for the public sector is to minimize it's spendings and leave the development and economic growth to the private sector. Also, the only role of Central Institutions is to fiddle with the interest rates and that is bullshit - there is no way to convince me that only the fluctuation of interest rates can move an economy.
The adoption of the Neo-classical model has led to the demise of inflation, but also it has led to fabulous ups and downs, to inflated stock exchanges (that deflate rather stunningly, like the .com bubble burst for instance - not to mention Athens http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ) and most of all, to the absolute dependance of the worker upon the various market fluctuations, which means insecurity and also the gathering of wealth into the hands of the few. In the past two decades, the perc. of the people who have the 90% of the wealth in USA for instance, has gone down from 20%+ to less than 5% - higher even than what we saw in the times of Corporate Terrorism (before 1930). Can you say social and economical instability? Well, that's the deal. We are going down and we are going fast down.
Of course the Keynesian model without an adjustment to the current situation would fail blatantly, but there are numerous adjustments already introduced by Neo-Keynesian economists and I think we should switch to this model before it is too late.
Many people know about Keynes. A bit like knowing about Adam Smith but with Keynes being more relevent as he is more modern.
Thatcherism.....
No............
No.......
My aunt was a refugee of Thatcher's Britain. Fleeing economic prosecution she fled across the sea to Ireland. Well enough about Thatcher.....
Well easy answer is going to be Jesus Christ, or Plato, or Aristotle, or Confucious.
LordMonarch
03-16-2003, 20:15
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Dec. 13 2002,18:11)]Wouldn't it be marvellous to have a sort of a "philosophers duke it out" contest? I mean, there could be the Greek team, with Aristotle, Platon, Socrates, Epictetus, Plotinus etc, against the German team with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Kant, Hegel etc. the French team with Voltaire, Russeau, Descartes etc. and all the other good folks around... would be really something http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Can you imagine Neitzche actually listening to anyone else. He spent his whole life giving out about them and hating them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif That would be entertaining. The French team would need Sartre. And I guess a English team with Locke, Hobbes etc. would be included.
Quote[/b] ]Actually the more I read about Voltaire the more I like him. He actually makes the french look good .
Socrates is also up there with his thinking.
I think I will actually have to sit down and read some of their works rather then just snippets and one liners of their lives.
Read Sartre for a great French thinker... and Descarte even though his writing style is rather boring.
Plato's Republic is the one to read first, if you want to read about Socrates.
chilliwilli
03-16-2003, 20:39
Wow This thread dis old lol when did this get resurected?
My top in several spheres of science:
- in economy: Adam Smith, Karl Marx (his early works), Keynes of course, M. Porter and Fisher (monetary theory). All these men are worth mentioning.
- in philosophy: Arnold Toynbee, Lev Gumilev (passionary theory which can explain the world history), and Socrat.
- in politics - Erkhart. I admire at his efforts to reconstruct germen economy after WW2.
- in military: Hannibal, Napoleon, Suvorov (russian general who won all the battles he was engaged in, and second one after Hannibal who crossed Alps in 18 cent.) and Nelson.
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