javelins too weak?

[Slaists]

This is not an issue of EB but rather of the RTW engine in general. I find javelins to be way too underpowered.

Take akondistai, for example, they are little more than a nuisance (with javelins or without). I agree that javelins would be pretty ineffective when thrown frontally against troops carrying shields. However, they should be quite effective against shield-less/unarmored opponents. Nonetheless, a full unit of akondistai, at best, kills a couple (unarmored) slingers in a full frontal, close range volley. Also, if positioned directly behind a frontally engaged enemy phalanx unit, a full unit of akondistai, is able to get just a few kills before running out of javelins.

That's just BS IMHO... Please pardon my "French". These men were skilled with their javelins. Also, javelins had been a weapon of choice for hunting purposes for thousands of years. How many throwing chances do you think a hunter gets before the animal runs away?... So, no way, akondistai would miss 90% of their throws standing behind a phalanx at practically a point blank range... Such a volley would be devastating...

Anyway, any ideas how to mod this into the game?

[Antonivs Silvicola]

Just mod the primary attack value in the export_descr_unit file in the data folder. For example;

;142
type greek skirmisher akontistai
dictionary greek_skirmisher_akontistai ; Akontistai
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_missile_akontistai, 60, 0, 0.85
mount_effect elephant +2, chariot +2, horse -2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, hide_long_grass
formation 1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 7, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 4, 2, javelin, 55, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr thrown
stat_sec 7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 810, 202, 20, 30, 810
ownership greek_cities, macedon, thrace, numidia, slave, romans_brutii, romans_julii, egypt, romans_scipii, armenia, pontus, gauls, britons, scythia, dacia, germans, carthage, parthia, seleucid, saba, spain

Just change the 4 to a higher number until you get the desired effect.

[athanaric]

I find my Akontistai to be quite effective vs phalanx. However, IMO there should be a few more casualties in a phalanx when frontally hit by a massive javelin volley.

Slingers have a very loose formation and cause attacking javelin troops to waste many missiles. Unarmoured infantry units with a shield value of less than 3 actually suffer heavy casualties from frontal javelin volleys.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I find that javelins are effective enough in game. Akontistai were generally speaking the poorest of the poor with little to no experience in combat. Although many were no doubt skilled hunters, it is entirely different to hunt a deer in the woods and to fight on an open battlefield where men are dying around you and concentrate on anything but just throwing your javelins and getting the hell out of there.

Play as Lusotann and you will see just how effective javelins can be. Between the long range javelins of your native units and the solifera of the Iberian units, you can rip half an army to shreds before they reach your lines.

[anubis88]

I agree they are underpowered. Phalanxes often dont get a singe dead men when i hit them with javelins frome the front, even at point blanke range. That's just wierd

[seienchin]

That is not a javelinn problem. Its a problem about the phalangitai having 5 shield, which is even doubled when in phalanx mode-:book:

[Ludens]

That is not a javelinn problem. Its a problem about the phalangitai having 5 shield, which is even doubled when in phalanx mode-:book:

I am pretty sure that the story that shield value is doubled by phalanx mode is myth. The 1.2 patch doubled shield value against missiles, but this was for all units, not just spearmen in phalanx mode.

[seienchin]

I am pretty sure that the story that shield value is doubled by phalanx mode is myth. The 1.2 patch doubled shield value against missiles, but this was for all units, not just spearmen in phalanx mode.
Ah okay. Sorry. Still I have the feeling phalangitai rarely take hits from arrows. Still their shieldvalue is 5, which is higher than most units (Nearly all?:sweatdrop:) making them incredible resistant to javelinnes.

[antisocialmunky]

I am pretty sure that the story that shield value is doubled by phalanx mode is myth. The 1.2 patch doubled shield value against missiles, but this was for all units, not just spearmen in phalanx mode.

Ludens is right. However, javelins are a just a little too weak when compared to arrows or slingers of death for taking out armored targets. :-\

[Cambyses]

Were akontistai really hunters? I mean was anyone non-noble really a hunter in developed and populous areas of the ancient world, such as Greece? IMO these guys were "cannon fodder" designed to slow down and tire out the enemy, not score large numbers of kills.

[Megas Methuselah]

Were akontistai really hunters? I mean was anyone non-noble really a hunter in developed and populous areas of the ancient world, such as Greece? IMO these guys were "cannon fodder" designed to slow down and tire out the enemy, not score large numbers of kills.

Urban poor that would do just as good, if not more, in serving as a ship's rowers? Dunno. We must keep in mind, though, that this was a primarily rural society. :shrug:

[Knight of Heaven]

Actualy in reality the javelins werent a killers in ancient battlefields. Their role often was to soften a charge, their kill rates werent that high.

The romans for instance would know the importance of kiling the momento of the enemy charge with their pilum. But javelins werent killers by no means. the same for slingers and even archers. Only units with a special training in composite bows, were that much efective. i think EB portrait this very well in my opinion.

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah, btw you can't hope nothing more with akontistai and gundi palta, than become meatshields and annoyances in the battlefield, they are untrained peasants and urban poors pressed for providing good numbers in battle, and soak up enemy missiles (hence their cheap costs and upkeep).

If you want to see how effective the javelins are, use peltastai, they are my primary killers most of the early to middle part in my Hellenistic faction campaigns...

[Tollheit]

I am pretty sure that the story that shield value is doubled by phalanx mode is myth.
What is your reasoning for this?

Phalanx units are virtually impervious vs missiles from the front when in phalanx mode, while I do get some odd casualties when not in phalanx mode. That seems to be my experience, at least, which seems to fit nicely with doubled phalanx shield value.

I. e. I assume shield value is doubled vs. missiles and doubled again by phalanx mode.

Which is why I reverted to the vanilla shield value system for phalanxes (3 for levy phalanx, 4 for other phalanx) and raised their defence skill.

[Rahwana]

What is your reasoning for this?

Phalanx units are virtually impervious vs missiles from the front when in phalanx mode, while I do get some odd casualties when not in phalanx mode. That seems to be my experience, at least, which seems to fit nicely with doubled phalanx shield value.

I. e. I assume shield value is doubled vs. missiles and doubled again by phalanx mode.

Which is why I reverted to the vanilla shield value system for phalanxes (3 for levy phalanx, 4 for other phalanx) and raised their defence skill.

You means that even in 3 shield values, the phalanx got 12 shield against missile in phalanx mode?

[Tollheit]

That's what I think, yes (although I have no proof).

[Leão magno]

Javelins seens balanced for me:book:! If Akontistai were phalanx killers generals would have never created Peltastai and Thureophoroi, they would stick to the cheaper unit.

[Ludens]

What is your reasoning for this?

In EB, well-shielded units such as legionaries are already very resistant to missile fire. Phalangites have the highest shield value and good armour as well, so you'd expect them to be almost immune. Also, I'd expect this feature to be documented somewhere, or else that would have discovered it during testing, but no-one seems to know whether this occurred.

[Slaists]

Javelins seens balanced for me:book:! If Akontistai were phalanx killers generals would have never created Peltastai and Thureophoroi, they would stick to the cheaper unit.

I feel, akondistai and the likes are balanced fine as far as attacking armored/shielded foes from the front is concerned. However, I do not find it realistic that 120 men cannot score more than a couple kills while, at point blank range, throwing javelins into unprotected BACKS of 120 men who are frontally engaged with another unit. In reality, you'd have to try really hard to MISS in such a situation...

[Apázlinemjó]

I feel, akondistai and the likes are balanced fine as far as attacking armored/shielded foes from the front is concerned. However, I do not find it realistic that 120 men cannot score more than a couple kills while, at point blank range, throwing javelins into unprotected BACKS of 120 men who are frontally engaged with another unit. In reality, you'd have to try really hard to MISS in such a situation...

I guess it works like this because of the limitation of the RTW engine.

[WinsingtonIII]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the damage that a massed volley of javelins would do in real life other than just kill the enemy is not represented well by the RTW engine. Obviously, there should be a big morale drop, which may be represented by the morale drop of being under missile fire in RTW. However, a major effect of javelins was to render shields useless. When a javelin became stuck in a shield, it made it pretty much useless, and the user would usually just discard the shield and go into melee combat without it, which of course, made them much more vulnerable. Of course, this cannot be represented in the RTW engine.

That said, I think the major problem is not the weak nature of javelins, because they will devastate many units, but the overpowered nature of phalanxes when hit by missiles from the front. They should of course be very resistant to missiles from the front, but in RTW they are practically invincible, which is ridiculous.

[seienchin]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the damage that a massed volley of javelins would do in real life other than just kill the enemy is not represented well by the RTW engine. Obviously, there should be a big morale drop, which may be represented by the morale drop of being under missile fire in RTW. However, a major effect of javelins was to render shields useless. When a javelin became stuck in a shield, it made it pretty much useless, and the user would usually just discard the shield and go into melee combat without it, which of course, made them much more vulnerable. Of course, this cannot be represented in the RTW engine.

That said, I think the major problem is not the weak nature of javelins, because they will devastate many units, but the overpowered nature of phalanxes when hit by missiles from the front. They should of course be very resistant to missiles from the front, but in RTW they are practically invincible, which is ridiculous.

NO! Not in RTW, in Vanilla they die like flies against peltastai.

[Tollheit]

In EB, well-shielded units such as legionaries are already very resistant to missile fire. Phalangites have the highest shield value and good armour as well, so you'd expect them to be almost immune. Also, I'd expect this feature to be documented somewhere, or else that would have discovered it during testing, but no-one seems to know whether this occurred.

I did some testing today. Since phalangitai are so well armored that the AI will not waste any ammo on them in 1vs1 custom battles, I did some modding first.
Klerouchikoi Phalangitai: defence 1,1,5 (armor,skill,shield)
Saka Foot Archers: secondary attack 1, defence 0,0,0, unit size 42 on huge (in order to discourage melee)

I did 8 battles, 4 using phalanx mode and 4 without phalanx mode.
I noted the casualties once the archers had exhausted their ammunition.
No maneuvering except for approach of archers; flat terrain.
When I used phalanx mode, the AI archers managed to shoot: 17/19/22/17 phalangitai
When I didn't use phalanx, the AI archers managed to shoot: 40/30/36/42 phalangitai

My conclusion: it seems to be plausible that phalanx mode does increase the effective shield value.

[Finn MacCumhail]

Of cause! I haven't read all thread, coz too many letters, so excuse me if it was already mentioned.

IRL when sarisofors (spelling?) use their special ability, then their spears behaive like defense system. Imagine wall of spears, the possibility that the arrow will hit the spear bigger then it hit man, or even then he has helmet, shield and so on.

[WinsingtonIII]

NO! Not in RTW, in Vanilla they die like flies against peltastai.

I guess it's been too long since I've played vanilla, I thought they were pretty resistant to javelins in vanilla as well. Regardless, what I meant was that in EB phalanxes have way too much of a frontal defensive bonus against missiles, and that it is unfortunate that the RTW engine cannot represent one of the major effects of javelins, that is, to unshield some of the enemy.

[seienchin]

I guess it's been too long since I've played vanilla, I thought they were pretty resistant to javelins in vanilla as well. Regardless, what I meant was that in EB phalanxes have way too much of a frontal defensive bonus against missiles, and that it is unfortunate that the RTW engine cannot represent one of the major effects of javelins, that is, to unshield some of the enemy.

No, I used to knock out a whole phalanx by two javelinne volleys from two peltastai. One from the front, one from the side. they just died like flies and routed. I off course never use that tactic in EB :laugh4::laugh4:

[vartan]

I guess it's been too long since I've played vanilla, I thought they were pretty resistant to javelins in vanilla as well. Regardless, what I meant was that in EB phalanxes have way too much of a frontal defensive bonus against missiles, and that it is unfortunate that the RTW engine cannot represent one of the major effects of javelins, that is, to unshield some of the enemy.

Only reason units 'die like flies' in "Vanilla" is because of the stats, if I'm not mistaken. They are in such a state that a volley of javs kills half a unit (minor exaggeration). In EB, none of the stats look like the ones in "Vanilla." Just take a look at the charge values for cavalry! VERY DIFFERENT!

[satalexton]

I think the general phenomon in EB is that if something is not 'working' or 'too weak', there's 90% of the time the user ain using it right.

Even with akonkistai, one can slaughter a unit of done correctly. Mind, these dude are merely your average urban poor given a knife, some pointy sticks and a shoddy shield.

If you want real javalin throwers, the iberians and getai the ones you should be looking for.

[Ludens]

IMy conclusion: it seems to be plausible that phalanx mode does increase the effective shield value.

That is suggestive. Maybe I need to run some tests as well.

[WinsingtonIII]

I think the general phenomon in EB is that if something is not 'working' or 'too weak', there's 90% of the time the user ain using it right.

Even with akonkistai, one can slaughter a unit of done correctly. Mind, these dude are merely your average urban poor given a knife, some pointy sticks and a shoddy shield.

If you want real javalin throwers, the iberians and getai the ones you should be looking for.

I don't think that this is a phenomenon of something not working correctly, or being too weak, though. I think that for the most part, javelins are great, they do plenty of damage to most units, if used correctly. The exception to this is against phalanx units. A massed volley of javelins against units in phalanx mode is going to kill maybe two or three men out of a unit with 242 men in it. Let's be honest, that's a little ridiculous. The spears could deflect some missiles, but it's not like phalanxes had forcefields around them that deflected 95% of missiles away. As you say, Komotai are great units, they are one of my favorite low level units in the game, but against units in phalanx mode, their javelins seem to just bounce off. I'm not arguing that they should be devastating phalanx units, but two or three casualties from 200 javelins is putting too much faith in the phalanxes abilities.

Now, I'm personally fine with leaving this as it is, because there are still plenty of ways to destroy phalanx units, but I don't think it's correct to blame the user in this situation.

EDIT: These volleys don't even have to hit the phalanx from the front. Even if you flank, throwing javelins at a unit in phalanx mode will garner very few kills.

[Vilkku92]

Well, phalangites wore linen cuirasses, bronze helmets and greaves, and carried shields. They were packed in tight ranks, so that they were protected not only by their personal equipment but also by the shields of the men next to them, the bodies of their comrades and that forrest of pikes. As javelin isn't the most accurate weapon you can find, it would be hard to hit those vulnerable parts from a sensible distance, so we shouldn't be suprised if Akontistai can't kill too many of them from the front. :beam:

[antisocialmunky]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a top armor bonus from phalanx as straight shooting weapons like slingers can still do a little bit of damage while all arcing weapons are ridiculously weakened.

If that's not the case then its not a shield bonus but an armor bonus. If IIRC AP is not effective against shield. It only halves armor values.

Ludens, correct me please.

[Tollheit]

If either of your theories were true phalanx/no phalanx should not make much of a difference for slingers, so I repeated my little test with defence: 0,0,5 phalangitai and a unit of 41 Iaosatae

results:
with phalanx: Iaosatae shoot 9/15/15/10 phalangitai
without phalanx: Iaosatae shoot 32/31/31/27 phalangitai

At least as much of a difference. Which is consistent with increased shield values, since Iaosatae have more ammo but less attack, and their ap ability doesn't make a difference against shields.

[WinsingtonIII]

Well, phalangites wore linen cuirasses, bronze helmets and greaves, and carried shields. They were packed in tight ranks, so that they were protected not only by their personal equipment but also by the shields of the men next to them, the bodies of their comrades and that forrest of pikes. As javelin isn't the most accurate weapon you can find, it would be hard to hit those vulnerable parts from a sensible distance, so we shouldn't be suprised if Akontistai can't kill too many of them from the front. :beam:

I understand that these factors would combine to make the phalanx a resistant formation to missile fire, but it should not be nigh-invincible to missiles. Also, remember that if a javelin hit a shield, it would likely render it useless, forcing the user to discard it. As for accuracy, a tightly packed mass of men makes a pretty easy target, although the chance that they would hit a vulnerable area was unlikely. Even so, I think the ratio should be better than 2 kills for every 100 javelins thrown. Does that not seem just a little bit ridiculous to you? Remember that kills in EB also represent those who are injured too badly to continue fighting but may recover after the battle. So, essentially, we are getting 2 casualties for every 100 javelins thrown. Whether you find that believable or not is up to you.

Anyways, as I said before, I don't really care whether this gets changed, as there are plenty of better ways to kill phalanxes, but I think it overestimates the resilience of the phalanx formation to missiles. Let's be honest, this was not the equivalent of the testudo formation.

[antisocialmunky]

If either of your theories were true phalanx/no phalanx should not make much of a difference for slingers, so I repeated my little test with defence: 0,0,5 phalangitai and a unit of 41 Iaosatae

results:
with phalanx: Iaosatae shoot 9/15/15/10 phalangitai
without phalanx: Iaosatae shoot 32/31/31/27 phalangitai

At least as much of a difference. Which is consistent with increased shield values, since Iaosatae have more ammo but less attack, and their ap ability doesn't make a difference against shields.

Where's your control of other missile units?

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I understand that these factors would combine to make the phalanx a resistant formation to missile fire, but it should not be nigh-invincible to missiles. Also, remember that if a javelin hit a shield, it would likely render it useless, forcing the user to discard it. As for accuracy, a tightly packed mass of men makes a pretty easy target, although the chance that they would hit a vulnerable area was unlikely. Even so, I think the ratio should be better than 2 kills for every 100 javelins thrown. Does that not seem just a little bit ridiculous to you? Remember that kills in EB also represent those who are injured too badly to continue fighting but may recover after the battle. So, essentially, we are getting 2 casualties for every 100 javelins thrown. Whether you find that believable or not is up to you.

Anyways, as I said before, I don't really care whether this gets changed, as there are plenty of better ways to kill phalanxes, but I think it overestimates the resilience of the phalanx formation to missiles. Let's be honest, this was not the equivalent of the testudo formation.

I agree. Phalangites have only small shields, not like the huge shields of traditional hoplites. Although their long sarissas might provide some extra protection, overall, the anti-missile defence ability of phalangites should be no better than that of hoplites with equally good body armour. Even in phalanx formation.

[Ludens]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a top armor bonus from phalanx as straight shooting weapons like slingers can still do a little bit of damage while all arcing weapons are ridiculously weakened.

If that's not the case then its not a shield bonus but an armor bonus. If IIRC AP is not effective against shield. It only halves armor values.

Ludens, correct me please.

No, you are right. AP does not work against shields. However, I doubt there is a special armour calculation for projectiles based on their arc. More likely this is caused by the AP effect, or perhaps because slingstones traverse more of the formation than do arcing weapons.


I agree. Phalangites have only small shields, not like the huge shields of traditional hoplites. Although their long sarissas might provide some extra protection, overall, the anti-missile defence ability of phalangites should be no better than that of hoplites with equally good body armour. Even in phalanx formation.

In vanilla R:TW hoplites also used phalanx formation, so this was not a concern to the programmer. But I agree that the pike formation would not have provided much protection in reality.