MoH winner to be sued for Flagpole

[Prussian to the Iron]

Caught you with that title didn't I?

Heres the story:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/POLEGAT02_20091202-091201/309031/P0/




Col. Van T. Barfoot, a local Medal of Honor winner, is under the gun from his Henrico County community's homeowner association.

In a five-paragraph letter to Barfoot that he received yesterday, Barfoot is being ordered to remove a flagpole from his yard. The decorated veteran of three wars, now 90 years old, raises the American flag every morning on the pole, then lowers and folds the flag at dusk each day in a three-corner military fashion.

In a priority mail letter, the Coates & Davenport law firm in Richmond is ordering Barfoot to remove the pole by 5 p.m. Friday or face "legal action being brought to enforce the Covenants and Restrictions against you." The letter states that Barfoot will be subject to paying all legal fees and costs in any successful legal proceeding pursued by the homeowner association's board.

Barfoot's daughter said this evening that news reports about the association order have prompted an outpouring of sympathy and offers of help from people following her father's ordeal.

Tonight, the Sussex Square Homeowners Association issued a statement reiterating its position that Barfoot directly violated the association board's denial of his request to erect a flagpole.

"This is not about the American flag. This about a flagpole," the statement reads.

Barfoot lives in the Sussex Square community in far western Henrico; its board of directors rejected a plea from Barfoot in July to approve the pole, disallowing the fixture on aesthetic grounds.

There is no provision in the community's rules expressly forbidding flagpoles, Barfoot's daughter said. But she said the board ruled against her father's fixture and ordered it removed in July, deciding that free-standing flag poles are not aesthetically appropriate. Short flag stands attached to porches dot the community.

"Dad sort of feels like this is the end," said Margaret Nicholls, Barfoot's daughter, who lives a few doors away. But she said this morning that she and her husband are attempting to generate support for her father's cause, a flag-raising rite that he has undertaken for most of his life.

Barfoot received the Medal of Honor on the battlefield during World War II in Italy and fought as well in the Korean and Vietnam wars. A portion of a highway in rural Mississippi, his native state, was named in his honor this fall. A building at McGuire Veterans Hospital in Richmond also carries his name.

Barfoot began regularly flying the flag on Veteran's Day this year despite the Sussex Square board's decision.

He said in November that not flying the flag would be a sacrilege to him.

"There's never been a day in my life or a place I've lived in my life that you couldn't fly the American flag," he said.

For more on this story, see tomorrow's Richmond Times-Dispatch.

-- Bill McKelway



Can you believe this? Absolutely ludicrous. If he gets in a ton of trouble for having the frickin flag pole and flag in his yard, and being an MoH winner, and a WWII, Korea, and Vietnam Veteran, let's just say that the local HOA will have a lot of company dressed in green, black, and brown (cammies).



discuss

[Strike For The South]

Did you just blatantly rip this from the Minaret thread? :thumbsdown:

[Subotan]

Sussex Square Homeowners Association

Freaking NIMBYS.

EDIT: I didn't see that this was from the Minaret thread. SHAME.

[TinCow]

Cry me a river. Homeowner's association rules are not arbitrarily imposed on people against their will. They're part of the contract you sign when you buy the property and you explicitly agree to abide by them when you buy the house. He knew what the rules were when he bought the place, so he has no reason to complain. If the flag mattered to him that much, he shouldn't have moved to a place that didn't allow flagpoles and then signed an agreement to legally bind himself to abide by their rules.

Receiving the Medal of Honor doesn't make you immune to the rule of law.

[Strike For The South]

Cry me a river. Homeowner's association rules are not arbitrarily imposed on people against their will. They're part of the contract you sign when you buy the property and you explicitly agree to abide by them when you buy the house. He knew what the rules were when he bought the place, so he has no reason to complain. If the flag mattered to him that much, he shouldn't have moved to a place that didn't allow flagpoles and then signed an agreement to legally bind himself to abide by their rules.

Receiving the Medal of Honor doesn't make you immune to the rule of law.

Have you ever thought about looking into the law profession?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Cry me a river. Homeowner's association rules are not arbitrarily imposed on people against their will. They're part of the contract you sign when you buy the property and you explicitly agree to abide by them when you buy the house. He knew what the rules were when he bought the place, so he has no reason to complain. If the flag mattered to him that much, he shouldn't have moved to a place that didn't allow flagpoles and then signed an agreement to legally bind himself to abide by their rules.

Receiving the Medal of Honor doesn't make you immune to the rule of law.

Flagpoles aren't forbidden in the agreement, the board made the ruling.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Have you ever thought about looking into the law profession?See witticism like this is why I want to marry you.

[Reverend Joe]

Cry me a river. Homeowner's association rules are not arbitrarily imposed on people against their will. They're part of the contract you sign when you buy the property and you explicitly agree to abide by them when you buy the house. He knew what the rules were when he bought the place, so he has no reason to complain. If the flag mattered to him that much, he shouldn't have moved to a place that didn't allow flagpoles and then signed an agreement to legally bind himself to abide by their rules.

Receiving the Medal of Honor doesn't make you immune to the rule of law.


There is no provision in the community's rules expressly forbidding flagpoles, Barfoot's daughter said. But she said the board ruled against her father's fixture and ordered it removed in July, deciding that free-standing flag poles are not aesthetically appropriate. Short flag stands attached to porches dot the community.

I dunno, it seems to me that he has a case here. :shrug:

[rory_20_uk]

Laws still apply to war veterans. I'm sure there are other places he can go to fly a flag.

I'm a doctor - can I drive at 80mph instead of 70 as I'm special too? :inquisitive:

He might have a case, and that's fine. But that's for the courts of law, not of emotive public opinion.

~:smoking:

[Subotan]

Maybe to make a point, he should set up lots of little flag poles, with the Iranian Flag, North Korean Flag, USSR Flag etc, just out of badness :shrug:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Laws still apply to war veterans. I'm sure there are other places he can go to fly a flag.

I'm a doctor - can I drive at 80mph instead of 70 as I'm special too? :inquisitive:

He might have a case, and that's fine. But that's for the courts of law, not of emotive public opinion.

~:smoking:

He asked for a flagpole, and that specific request was declined. It has nothing to do with making an exception.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Maybe to make a point, he should set up lots of little flag poles, with the Iranian Flag, North Korean Flag, USSR Flag etc, just out of badness :shrug:

except that he is a total patriot, thats why he served in 3 wars and has a real flagpole.



and no, being an MoH winner or veteran of 3 wars doesn't give him different rights, but it does entitle him to be as patriotic as he damn well pleases. if I was him, I'd put up flag poles all over the property just to be a dick.

[rory_20_uk]

He asked for a flagpole, and that specific request was declined. It has nothing to do with making an exception.

Then why is it still there? Clearly he feels he is an exception and that the ruling does not apply to him, else he'd have taken it down.

~:smoking:

[drone]

Just a quick clarification to those unfamiliar with Homeowner's Associations (AKA Neighborhood Nazis): This has nothing to do with breaking laws or inalienable rights. He is in violation of lawn and building standards set aside by the HOA, so I believe he is technically in breach of contract.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Then why is it still there? Clearly he feels he is an exception and that the ruling does not apply to him, else he'd have taken it down.

~:smoking:

You think he wouldn't support his neighbor if they were being asked to take a flagpole down?

The reason I posted it in the minaret thread is that it's similar in many ways. The swiss ruled no minarets, many were saying that was unfair. You could say the muslims feel they are an exception, but that would be an oversimplification.

[rory_20_uk]

The rules are clear. He broke them. Simple. Whether he would allow someone else to do something is not relevant.

~:smoking:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The rules are clear. He broke them. Simple. Whether he would allow someone else to do something is not relevant.

~:smoking:

Rosa Parks broke the rules too.

They were simple. They were clear. If you are black, you have to sit at the back of the bus. Clearly she thought she was an exception.

:laugh4:

Well, I'm joking around with that.

So you aren't claiming he thinks he's an exception any more?

Some rules are dumb and it's perfectly legitimate to say so. The HOA is probable going to catch some well deserved flack for this, can't see that as a bad thing.

[Subotan]

except that he is a total patriot, thats why he served in 3 wars and has a real flagpole.


:wall:

Which is why I said he should make a point. By the logic of the HAA, they would prefer to see the Hammer on Sickle flapping around in their neighbours garden on a little pole than their nation's flag on a big one.

I'm sure he could just plead the first or something and be done with it.

[TinCow]

Flagpoles aren't forbidden in the agreement, the board made the ruling.

From another article on the OP link website:


There is no provision in the community's rules expressly forbidding flagpoles, Barfoot's daughter said. But she said the board ruled against her father's fixture and ordered it removed in July, deciding that free-standing flag poles are not aesthetically appropriate. Short flag stands attached to porches dot the community.

My house is in a community that has a homeowner's association. That association is also very concerned with aesthetic standards. The reason for this is that the entire street is very attractive because of the way it is designed. There is a uniformity of tree plantings and lighting that makes the entire area look and feel like a single community. It creates a very friendly feeling. The property value of each individual house is increased as a result of this. If the aesthetics of the street are broken up, then the property value of each house will go down.

Free-standing flagpoles are much more intrusive than flag holders that are attached to the sides of buildings. If someone put up a flagpole on my street, I would complain very quickly. That flagpole would be damaging the property value of my home.

It's worth noting that a Homeowner's association is comprised of representatives of the residents of that area. Thus, the ruling was made by his neighbors, who are the ones who would directly suffer from any decrease in property value as a result of his actions. So, we've got a situation where the majority of the elected representatives of his street feel that his actions risk damaging the property values of all the houses in the area. Yet he refuses to take it down. Medal of Honor or not, in that situation, he's just a jerk.

[Whacker]

I am in 100% agreement with what Tincow has stated in both of his posts.

The gentleman in question is out of bounds and in breach of his community covenant. Large flagpoles are very intrusive, and his is probably damaging the property value of his neighbor's houses. He can put up a normal hanging flagpole just like dozens of his other neighbors probably have (and we have here) and fly a flag that way. This is the exact same situation that I would expect and hold myself to and my neighbors to in our community.

In short, cry me a river.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

From another article on the OP link website:



My house is in a community that has a homeowner's association. That association is also very concerned with aesthetic standards. The reason for this is that the entire street is very attractive because of the way it is designed. There is a uniformity of tree plantings and lighting that makes the entire area look and feel like a single community. It creates a very friendly feeling. The property value of each individual house is increased as a result of this. If the aesthetics of the street are broken up, then the property value of each house will go down.

Free-standing flagpoles are much more intrusive than flag holders that are attached to the sides of buildings. If someone put up a flagpole on my street, I would complain very quickly. That flagpole would be damaging the property value of my home.

It's worth noting that a Homeowner's association is comprised of representatives of the residents of that area. Thus, the ruling was made by his neighbors, who are the ones who would directly suffer from any decrease in property value as a result of his actions. So, we've got a situation where the majority of the elected representatives of his street feel that his actions risk damaging the property values of all the houses in the area. Yet he refuses to take it down. Medal of Honor or not, in that situation, he's just a jerk.

That makes sense for your neighborhood. But it's pretty clear that he lives in an old people suburb type of neighborhood. Property values are not an issue here, and his house is butt ugly anyway :laugh4:

Eh, trying to find a picture of the street it does look like one of those "picturesque" neighborhoods. I find the whole thing goofy, but they are within their rights to removed the flagpole.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2wghf9h.jpg


In short, cry me a river.

That's probably what he thinks when people start complaining about their property value :laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

I detest homeowner's associations.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I detest homeowner's associations.

CR

I don't know much about buying houses, but surely he could have found a place that didn't come with a homeowners association?

I think the "nice neighborhood" look is silly, but he wanted to live there.

[TinCow]

Eh, trying to find a picture of the street it does look like one of those "picturesque" neighborhoods. I find the whole thing goofy, but they are within their rights to removed the flagpole.

Yeah, I can't find a good picture either. The news articles just have close-ups of the guy and the flag without showing the pole in the context of the street. Google streetview goes right past the community, but not down the street.

[Reverend Joe]

I detest homeowner's associations.

CR

Indeed. I guess I can see it Tincow's way, in that he is in violation of the contract and the HA has an interest in keeping everything uniform. But on the other hand, Homeowner's Associations can be really bad for neighborhoods. For example, my family moved into a neighborhood that was later taken over by something similar to a homeowner's association, called the *insert street name here* Historical Society. The Historical Society then proceeded to stop people from doing things like putting up artificial siding that, in addition to being much better for a house than wooden siding, is indistinguishable from the real thing (I'm not talking about the older stuff that people put up on cheap houses decades ago; I've seen real siding and this stuff, and believe me, it looks completely real.) Their reasoning? It wasn't historical or aesthetically pleasing. So they would rather have houses with old rotting wooden siding falling off the walls and destroying the property value, aesthetic appeal and overall structural integrity of the houses than a perfectly good-looking house that will last decades longer just because it requires artificial siding. And it gets worse: people have complained about not being allowed to cut down old, rotting trees that are a serious danger to their house and their neighbor's houses because the Historical Society wants to preserve the historical appeal of the neighborhood.

You can argue that these people could just move to another neighborhood. But that requires them to be able to move to another house, and that's just not something most people can do whenever they please. So much for a man's house being his castle.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Can neighborhoods really be taken over by a HOA? I don't see how that works.

[Major Robert Dump]

Typically, the group who is ultimately in charge of the HOA (ie board of directors, not elected reps) are the people who owned the land where the houses were built and membership in the HOA was required up front before building the houses.

In other words, a HOA who pops up in your neighborhood years and years after it is built is not going to have much power.

However, if me, joe snuffy and jane doe own 48 acres and decide to subdivide and allow people to buy lots and build houses if they agree to abide by the HOA chaired by us for our wonderful neighborhood XXXXX, then by god you are stuck, because even tho u own the lot, the roads, sidewalks, pool and everything else belongs to us.

HOAs are most common in fenced communities and areas with roads that are not kept by the city

The people who really get screwed are the folks who move into the home as the 2nd, 3rd owners, etc, and may not realize what they are getting in to, as the previous owners whitewashed the situation so they could GTFO

It also means if the original owners of the subdivided property, me, jane and joe, go bankrupt and lose our assets and have to skip town, that the bank who forecloses us is now the HOA because they won the rights to our little enclave.

beautiful, eh?

[KukriKhan]

I'm in an HOA neighborhood. I flew the American flag, attached to my house. Three times it got ripped off, pole and all. So I applied for permission to erect a 15 foot flagpole on my tiny lawn, so I could fly the colors in a place less accessable to passers-by (yard is fenced). Denied. Appealed. Denied.

Last month, I suggested/threatened to paint the street-facing front of my house as a giant American flag. Silence. I'm still thinking about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the CCR's may grant the Board the power of denial all nice and legal. And I'm not a Medal of Honor winner. But it's a crappy way to treat a vet, in the OP's story.

I'm running for the board next spring.

-edit-

Maybe to make a point, he should set up lots of little flag poles, with the Iranian Flag, North Korean Flag, USSR Flag etc, just out of badness

the rebel in me likes this idea. :grin:

[Prussian to the Iron]

My house is in a community that has a homeowner's association. That association is also very concerned with aesthetic standards. The reason for this is that the entire street is very attractive because of the way it is designed. There is a uniformity of tree plantings and lighting that makes the entire area look and feel like a single community. It creates a very friendly feeling. The property value of each individual house is increased as a result of this. If the aesthetics of the street are broken up, then the property value of each house will go down.

Free-standing flagpoles are much more intrusive than flag holders that are attached to the sides of buildings. If someone put up a flagpole on my street, I would complain very quickly. That flagpole would be damaging the property value of my home.

It's worth noting that a Homeowner's association is comprised of representatives of the residents of that area. Thus, the ruling was made by his neighbors, who are the ones who would directly suffer from any decrease in property value as a result of his actions. So, we've got a situation where the majority of the elected representatives of his street feel that his actions risk damaging the property values of all the houses in the area. Yet he refuses to take it down. Medal of Honor or not, in that situation, he's just a jerk.

ok......no. I don't know much about real estate...but a single flagpole is not going to lower anybodies property values. why? because they aren't "aesthetically displeasing". I personally find those half-assed, 5 dollar little hanging flagpoles "aesthetically displeasing".


flag poles are not "intrusive". they are not ugly, they are not displeasing, they are not malicious. they are patriotic, and that does not lower home values. even if someone construed them as ugly:

A) they dont have to look at it

B)the value wouldn't drop down or anything, it could drop a few dollars and thats it.

[TinCow]

ok......no. I don't know much about real estate...but a single flagpole is not going to lower anybodies property values. why? because they aren't "aesthetically displeasing". I personally find those half-assed, 5 dollar little hanging flagpoles "aesthetically displeasing".

flag poles are not "intrusive". they are not ugly, they are not displeasing, they are not malicious. they are patriotic, and that does not lower home values. even if someone construed them as ugly:

That's totally subjective. I live in a townhouse community, where the front yard of each house is no more than about 10' x 10'. A 20' flagpole would look horrendous there. The same 20' flagpole would look perfectly fine in front of a large house set back a good ways from the street. You can't just say that flagpoles always look fine, because they don't... or at least most people won't think they do. Obviously the HOA in this case doesn't think that one looks good, or they wouldn't have ruled against it specifically for aesthetic reasons.


A) they dont have to look at it

On my street, I have to look at every other house every day I drive down there. If I close my eyes, I will crash my car.


B)the value wouldn't drop down or anything, it could drop a few dollars and thats it.

A few dollars? We're talking about real estate prices here. A 'small' change in a house price is measured in the thousands of dollars. A quick google search (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:9qAlqO-2DRkJ:www.richmondvatownhouses.com/Sussex-Square-Townhouses-POOL-and-TENNIS-COURTS-1ST-FLOOR-MASTER-SUITES!.htm+sussex+square,+richmond&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) shows that the house prices in that guys' community are in the $200k to $250k range. So, if that flag pole made prospective buyers dislike the community enough to drop their offer by half of one percent, that's still a drop of $1,000. That's not "a few dollars."

[Louis VI the Fat]

Some Black family wanted to move into my block. My homeowner association voted against it to protect our real estate value.

[Subotan]

I detest real estate in general. Speculators, landlords, most estate agents, and all the other types who buy houses as an "investment" artificially inflate the price of land, and deny first time buyers; i.e. everyone under 30 from being able to own their own house. Why should Bob own three houses when he only lives in one, just because he happens to have been alive when a property bubble started?

[Prussian to the Iron]

That's totally subjective. I live in a townhouse community, where the front yard of each house is no more than about 10' x 10'. A 20' flagpole would look horrendous there. The same 20' flagpole would look perfectly fine in front of a large house set back a good ways from the street. You can't just say that flagpoles always look fine, because they don't... or at least most people won't think they do. Obviously the HOA in this case doesn't think that one looks good, or they wouldn't have ruled against it specifically for aesthetic reasons.


A few dollars? We're talking about real estate prices here. A 'small' change in a house price is measured in the thousands of dollars. A quick google search (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:9qAlqO-2DRkJ:www.richmondvatownhouses.com/Sussex-Square-Townhouses-POOL-and-TENNIS-COURTS-1ST-FLOOR-MASTER-SUITES!.htm+sussex+square,+richmond&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) shows that the house prices in that guys' community are in the $200k to $250k range. So, if that flag pole made prospective buyers dislike the community enough to drop their offer by half of one percent, that's still a drop of $1,000. That's not "a few dollars."


well, in the area the guy lives in the houses appear to be somewhat large, and a flag pole wouldnt reduce prices.

[Samurai Waki]

I could hardly see how THAT could reduce the price of surrounding property, if the pole was 40 feet tall, and the flag was 50ftx36ft; then it would be a problem. That's small, and the flag is hardly an eyesore (the houses themselves don't seem to be overly spectacular anyways) if I was that guy I'd walk over to the HOA and Stick my 90 year old hardass military boot so far up each one of their rectal cavities, they'd be singing The Star Spangled Banner.

[Subotan]

I can play The Star Spangled Banner on bass. It's quite cool.

[Centurion1]

Maybe to make a point, he should set up lots of little flag poles, with the Iranian Flag, North Korean Flag, USSR Flag etc, just out of badness

this man doesn't put up the flags of those whom he has defeated in combat.

he stomps on them and laughs.



yeah this is outrageous and i now hate homeowners associations even more but i can't claim they are doing anything illegal technically.

[A Very Super Market]

Are the homeowners associations finicky? Yes. Is this man entitled to special treatment because of his history? No.

[miotas]

Did you just blatantly rip this from the Minaret thread? :thumbsdown:

Of course he didn't. He couldn't keep up, remember?


Eh, trying to find a picture of the street it does look like one of those "picturesque" neighborhoods. I find the whole thing goofy, but they are within their rights to removed the flagpole.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2wghf9h.jpg

All those dead trees everywhere must be terrible for property value, why do they care about one little pole?

[Centurion1]

^ its winter :inquisitive:

[Azathoth]

It's ok Centurion, he's just Australian.

[pevergreen]

It's ok Centurion, he's just Australian.

I resent that.

[Azathoth]

It's ok Pevergreen, I'm just American.

[naut]

Couldn't they make a communal space in the community (in a park or whatever) and erect the flag-pole there and put him in charge of that?

Then, he would get to fly the flag, do his thing, no rules would be broken, all standards kept. Problem solved.

Nah, taking a 90 y.o. vet to court is so much more fun.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Nah, taking a 90 y.o. vet to court is so much more fun.Yes, I have the same feeling. Why make the life of that man miserable over some flag. Whatever makes him happy, eh. Whatever gives him a sense of daily purpose, of having a story for his life. He's an old man.

I have the same feeling I get when I read about stripping 87 year olds in retirement homes of their cigarettes. Even if you are right about it, and it is is forbidden, why push it? Leave em their little pleasure.

[spmetla]

While I think it's in poor taste for the HOA to have denied his request he should still abide by it. As much as I respect the guy he can't just do his own thing. In all honesty, with a flagpole not being against the rules of the HOA he really should have just put the thing up without asking. By having asked, he opened up the opportunity to be denied his request, despite how stupid their response was in light of his exemplary service.

However, taking him to court over it is asinine.

[Whacker]

A few things.

First, HOA's are not completely evil in all situations. Mine has actually done some good, and as far as I know isn't run by a bunch of facists. We've had a situation where someone near the entrance to our neighborhood was letting his yard go, AND decided to rip off a chunk of his fence in order to do some real heavy yard work. At one point, his kid's damn swing set was parked OUTSIDE his fence on the side lawn directly next to the street for no less than 2 weeks. People eventually had enough, and the HOA started to put some serious pressure on him. It started out nicely enough, with the Pres. (who is a nice enough guy) talking to him one on one about it, etc. He used the excuse he's a pilot in the military and often flies long hours. OK, that we could buy. Problem is he was home a LOT more than what he made it out to be, AND he was given PLENTY of time to deal with this. Push came to shove and I think the served him. The mess was cleaned up within a few days. We've also had people put their satellite TV dishes on the front areas of their houses, and it looks utterly tacky and tasteless. Thankfully one of our restrictions is against that, so those get taken down pretty fast.

So, they aren't totally evil in all instances.

Next, I find it precious and amusing that quite a few of the people arguing in this thread about how dumb and meaningless this is are friggin' teenagers. Let's get something straight kids. When you grow up and are big boys (and girls) with your own jobs, and you actually own a damn house, come on back. We'll talk about mortgages, property values, upkeep and maintenance, easements, worrying about neighbors doing stupid crap with their property (and yours), and all that fun stuff that adults do. Until then, stay in school.

Lastly, @ Kukri. DO IT.

:balloon2:

[Lemur]

I've never lived in a neighborhood that had a HOA, and I expect I never will. Sounds entirely too obtrusive to this lemur. If I have a neighbor who hasn't mowed/raked/shoveled in a couple of weeks, a little good-natured ribbing will do the trick with far less fuss than a contract.

Besides which, I enjoy people being odd and doing their own thing. The dude across the street who bought a used Bobcat and uses it to landscape his hideous yard? Why the heck not? The old lady who never shovels her walk? (We all shovel it for her, depending on who gets out there first.) The 'naturalists" who have a jungle for a yard? More power to 'em.

But then again, I view my home as a place to live first and foremost. The investment aspect never really interested me.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Push came to shove and I think the served him. The mess was cleaned up within a few days. We've also had people put their satellite TV dishes on the front areas of their houses, and it looks utterly tacky and tasteless. Thankfully one of our restrictions is against that, so those get taken down pretty fast.


Sounds like you're just as anal as the guys asking the vet to take out his flagpost :laugh4:

Some people just need to chill out. Do I get upset about scratches and dents in my car? No, it's not an important part of my life.

The HOA request is still ridiculous, it's just counteracted by the fact that the guy wanted to live in that neighborhood.

[Samurai Waki]

I've never lived in a neighborhood that had a HOA, and I expect I never will.

Precisely. I can handle living in the boondocks, just so that I can avoid having to deal with people telling me how my property should look. Not that it looks bad, but I dislike Crackerjack neighborhoods to begin with, and there isn't any set building codes, so I can butt the corners on my deck any way I want to.

[Whacker]

Sounds like you're just as anal as the guys asking the vet to take out his flagpost :laugh4:

Some people just need to chill out. Do I get upset about scratches and dents in my car? No, it's not an important part of my life.

The HOA request is still ridiculous, it's just counteracted by the fact that the guy wanted to live in that neighborhood.

When your neighbors end up doing crap that can and does affect your property value, you will not be pleased over it. All the same reasons I care about dings in my truck. I like it, and want to keep it looking nice as long as I can. Eventually when I get tired of it, the better shape it's in translates directly into trade-in value. If you don't, then I guess I can somewhat admire your "screw it" attitude, but I would turn that right around and tell you that indifference is ridiculous. The dude I mainly talked about who let his property go was actually making some real safety hazards for the local kids, and it was becoming a real eyesore. So much of one that I think even you would agree. The sat dishes are subjective, but I guess I could see some folks not caring as much.

Property value = selling the house = moving my family into a bigger house eventually = more space for us, the eventual kids, dogs, and friends + family visiting. Rinse and repeat.

[Ronin]

I've never lived in a neighborhood that had a HOA, and I expect I never will. Sounds entirely too obtrusive to this lemur. If I have a neighbor who hasn't mowed/raked/shoveled in a couple of weeks, a little good-natured ribbing will do the trick with far less fuss than a contract.



So a HOA is too obtrusive but you will mess with your neighbors until they do stuff the way you want it?

what´s the difference then? :laugh4:

if the guy down the street doesn´t want to mow is lawn...or even have a lawn...what business is that of anyone else?

I admit I don´t get American's obsessions with flagpoles....maybe compensating for something? :P...but if the old man down the street wants to have a flagpole let him have it...it should be is right....just like it would be my right to think he is a coot for wanting it.

[miotas]

I don't see how having row after row of identical houses and lawns makes for an appealing neighbourhood, it sounds pretty boring to me. In my neighbourhood, there are all kinds of differently designed houses, each with their own uniquely designed gardens and various houses have things like flagpoles, statues, boats, cars, water features and more out the front, there is even a two-storey house that really sticks out and is completely different from anything else around.

This world where everyone is identical sounds kind of creepy.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Besides which, I enjoy people being odd and doing their own thing. The dude across the street who bought a used Bobcat and uses it to landscape his hideous yard? Why the heck not? The old lady who never shovels her walk? (We all shovel it for her, depending on who gets out there first.) The 'naturalists" who have a jungle for a yard? More power to 'em.Aye, that's why I enjoy cities. All your daily dose of live 'human interest'.



- The pettiness of private regulation will trump public regulation. Or, the difference between the US and Europe part 462312. This case would be one of public regulation in Europe, not of private regulation and property rights.

(Public regulation means a better democratic control, some democratic mitigation. It is more wasteful, more time-consuming, and has more powers for abuse.
Trying to get a government permit in France for building a 30 centimeter extention to your shack out in the back is enough to make one understand just why Eastern Europe had revolted against meddlesome governments in 1989.)

- Could the flag hoister not claim freedom of expression in this case?

- One's home is one's castle. While I am usually not overly impressed with private property rights, a home must enjoy a special status. 'Unaesthetical' is not sufficient reason for intrusion on a person's right to live the way he pleases.

[Lemur]

So a HOA is too obtrusive but you will mess with your neighbors until they do stuff the way you want it?

what´s the difference then?
Indeed, what is the difference between minimal standards maintained through contract law versus minimal standards maintained through social norms? Do tell the class.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I sympathize with the veteran. I've known a few of the "old guys" -- funny how that's in quotes now that I'm closer to 50 than 40 -- who maintained such a flag-raising tradition. I found it quaint. If the flagpole in the front yard did look a little "off" compared to the milieu of the entire neighborhood, it never jarred me enough to bother me.


HOAs are THE norm in the US today. More and more, states and counties are requiring that new construction, especially subdivisions and regardless of road maintenance issues, MUST be organized into HOAs and not sold as freeholds. This is a powerful tool of government, since they can then pass the oversight of the county right of ways at the edge of each property where it borders the road to the HOA while retaining ownership of the right of way for any county purpose. Neighbors take over the "policing" of the neighborhoods and there's fewer things for the county to have to send its people out to take care of.


If the HOA's grounds/architectural review/oversight committee wishes to be a bunch of jerks, you will find that you have relatively few rights over your property (check your contract carefully, once signed it's caveat emptor!), and that almost none of these extend outside the walls of your abode.

Unfortunately for Kukri, that will include his new paint scheme.

[Whacker]

Indeed, what is the difference between minimal standards maintained through contract law versus minimal standards maintained through social norms? Do tell the class.

This. It's not just contract law either, it's health and safety regulations.

@ Louis. Generally in the US you will have what is generally "health and safety" public building codes. These are in place to prevent real danger to others by neglecting one's property or housing. For example, you cannot let your grass get too high because pests and critters might take up living in your own personal jungle. You must take care of your trash and not leave it around the yard, for the same reasons. Building codes help prevent fire hazards, and ensure that structures are safe and livable. Auto safety codes can apply to vehicles on one's property as well, depending on what's happening.

The next layer is going to be HOA and community contracts. As mentioned several times, HOAs can and do often devolve into a handful of jerks. The best thing one can do is vote them the hell out, or run for the board. If you don't like it, fix it yourself. Find some like minded neighbors and fix the problem. Or move. Many options available.

The last piece is going to be social norms. Let's face it. If you keep your house looking nasty, or paint it horrible colors, or generally have it in a state that's not aesthetically pleasing BUT still within legal limits, you are generally going to become "that neighbor" and your social situation will suffer accordingly. Need help with something while you are away on vacation? Not going to happen. Want someone near to keep an eye on your house so it's not broken in to, or if it is it's cause quickly? Not going to happen. The social consequences can range from passive (as previous examples) to people actively making your life hell so you'll move the hell out. Some people don't give a hoot what their neighbors think, and go about their own business without a care in the world. I submit those types are arrogant and selfish fools. I like my neighbors, they like me, and that's how I want to keep it. I treat them the same way I want to be in return, and I do my best to keep my property and house looking nice so it keeps all of our property values up, and we all win in the end.

[KukriKhan]

Sgt (later 2Lt) Barfoot's MoH Citation (from here (http://distantcousin.com/Military/MedalofHonor/WWII/):

Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty on 23 May 1944, near Carano, Italy. With his platoon heavily engaged during an assault against forces well entrenched on commanding ground, 2d Lt. Barfoot (then Tech. Sgt.) moved off alone upon the enemy left flank. He crawled to the proximity of 1 machinegun nest and made a direct hit on it with a hand grenade, killing 2 and wounding 3 Germans. He continued along the German defense line to another machinegun emplacement, and with his tommygun killed 2 and captured 3 soldiers. Members of another enemy machinegun crew then abandoned their position and gave themselves up to Sgt. Barfoot. Leaving the prisoners for his support squad to pick up, he proceeded to mop up positions in the immediate area, capturing more prisoners and bringing his total count to 17. Later that day, after he had reorganized his men and consolidated the newly captured ground, the enemy launched a fierce armored counterattack directly at his platoon positions. Securing a bazooka, Sgt. Barfoot took up an exposed position directly in front of 3 advancing Mark VI tanks. From a distance of 75 yards his first shot destroyed the track of the leading tank, effectively disabling it, while the other 2 changed direction toward the flank. As the crew of the disabled tank dismounted, Sgt. Barfoot killed 3 of them with his tommygun. He continued onward into enemy terrain and destroyed a recently abandoned German fieldpiece with a demolition charge placed in the breech. While returning to his platoon position, Sgt. Barfoot, though greatly fatigued by his Herculean efforts, assisted 2 of his seriously wounded men 1,700 yards to a position of safety. Sgt. Barfoot's extraordinary heroism, demonstration of magnificent valor, and aggressive determination in the face of pointblank fire are a perpetual inspiration to his fellow soldiers.


This guy's actions and service ENABLED and guaranteed the freedom of a group like his HOA to be as wrong-headed as they wanna be without some fascist goose-stepper telling them different at bayonet-point. They should be more respectful.

[Ronin]

Indeed, what is the difference between minimal standards maintained through contract law versus minimal standards maintained through social norms? Do tell the class.

you obtrusive Lemur you!

[Strike For The South]

Some Black family wanted to move into my block. My homeowner association voted against it to protect our real estate value.

Did they try and put up minnarets?

[Subotan]

Next, I find it precious and amusing that quite a few of the people arguing in this thread about how dumb and meaningless this is are friggin' teenagers. Let's get something straight kids. When you grow up and are big boys (and girls) with your own jobs, and you actually own a damn house, come on back. We'll talk about mortgages, property values, upkeep and maintenance, easements, worrying about neighbors doing stupid crap with their property (and yours), and all that fun stuff that adults do. Until then, stay in school.


I have just had an epiphany. Suddenly it has become clear to me that to have any opinion about something that won't affect me at this precise point in time is "dumb and meaningless". I guess I'll have to throw out my "dumb and meaningless" opinions about retirement homes, politics, careers as well then, since none of then will affect me until I have left full time education.

[Major Robert Dump]

This is why I bought a house in the country. I'm going to paint it with zebra stripes and put up signs that label it as a Zombie Safe Zone. And no one can do anything about it.

[Lemur]

Just be on your guard when they start subdividing that farmer's field near you, MRD.

I guess my predilection for buying very old houses has kept me safe all of these years. I wasn't even conscious of it.

IMHO, individual conscience is superior to social pressure, social pressure is superior to binding contracts, and binding contracts are superior to law. The least amount of outside interference and/or force should be used to arrive at a safe minimum of conduct. But that's just my perspective.

[KukriKhan]

Just be on your guard when they start subdividing that farmer's field near you, MRD.

I guess my predilection for buying very old houses has kept me safe all of these years. I wasn't even conscious of it.

IMHO, individual conscience is superior to social pressure, social pressure is superior to binding contracts, and binding contracts are superior to law. The least amount of outside interference and/or force should be used to arrive at a safe minimum of conduct. But that's just my perspective.

Up the individual, down the collective!

[drone]

This is why I bought a house in the country. I'm going to paint it with zebra stripes and put up signs that label it as a Zombie Safe Zone. And no one can do anything about it.

My dream has always been to get a house on lots of land, that way if anybody complains about the way my house looks, I could shoot them for trespassing. ~D

[Lemur]

They've already got a sign ready for you, drone:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/P28331B.jpg

[Prussian to the Iron]

Did they try and put up minnarets?

Minarets and Flag-Poles. And Medals of Honor.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

When your neighbors end up doing crap that can and does affect your property value, you will not be pleased over it. All the same reasons I care about dings in my truck. I like it, and want to keep it looking nice as long as I can. Eventually when I get tired of it, the better shape it's in translates directly into trade-in value. If you don't, then I guess I can somewhat admire your "screw it" attitude, but I would turn that right around and tell you that indifference is ridiculous.

I think everyone from buddha to modern psychologists would say that being invested in your belongings is not a good route to happiness. Indifference is ridiculous from a financial perspective, I agree.

If the HOA was going to ban leaf blowers and edge trimmers I'd be right with you.




Property value = selling the house = moving my family into a bigger house eventually = more space for us, the eventual kids, dogs, and friends + family visiting. Rinse and repeat.

I hate dogs, and big houses are overrated :beam:




The last piece is going to be social norms. Let's face it. If you keep your house looking nasty, or paint it horrible colors, or generally have it in a state that's not aesthetically pleasing BUT still within legal limits, you are generally going to become "that neighbor" and your social situation will suffer accordingly.

The couple on our street who are "that neighbor" are the ones who keep their house and yard very tidy and send out concerned emails. Possibly one of the funniest things ever was when they sent out an email about the "black man walking by who peered into their windows", giving his description and warning us all to be on the lookout. Of course everyone else recognized the description, it was the judge who lives down the street :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Centurion1]

sasaki id be worried if MY neighbors started looking in my windows.......

[Prussian to the Iron]

i think they over-reacted, and he was just looking at the house.

[A Very Super Market]

No, I think that judge was going to rob them. All

[Whacker]

I think everyone from buddha to modern psychologists would say that being invested in your belongings is not a good route to happiness. Indifference is ridiculous from a financial perspective, I agree.

If the HOA was going to ban leaf blowers and edge trimmers I'd be right with you.

I hate dogs, and big houses are overrated :beam:

I'll just say this much. If one's happiness is based only on his or her toys, then I'd agree that's a fragile and sad situation. Life is much more than that.

However, the guy who coined the phrase "Money can't buy happiness" clearly didn't have much money or toys.

Also you are a wretched, horrible person for not liking dogs!!!111oneoneone :whip:


The couple on our street who are "that neighbor" are the ones who keep their house and yard very tidy and send out concerned emails. Possibly one of the funniest things ever was when they sent out an email about the "black man walking by who peered into their windows", giving his description and warning us all to be on the lookout. Of course everyone else recognized the description, it was the judge who lives down the street :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

That's just terrible. Obviously there's more than one way to become "that neighbor", your example is perfect. More often than naught the situations I've run in to growing up and now, "that neighbor" is the jacknuts who doesn't keep his property up. I'd say on my cul de sac, the worst ones (who are actually nice people) are the obnoxious Steelers fans (I'm looking at you, Ice). Steelers flags, stuff under the mailbox, wheel covers on their jeeps, etc etc. In the neighborhood, it's the junkies the next street over that are on the cop's watch list, have strange people coming and going at all hours, and don't take good care of their house to boot.

[miotas]

The "that neighbour" I can remember best growing up was a man who was obsessed with his property value and he would lose his nut when the kids would hit a cricket ball into his bushes and go rummaging though his garden looking for it. One day he told us to get off his lawn and threw our ball down the drain, then my mate's dad went to his house and asked quite loudly and rather impolitely, what the :daisy: was his problem, we were just a few kids wanting our ball back after all. When "that neighbour" responded he didn't want a few kids destroying his property value, he was told in no short order just where to stick his "property value", at which point everyone in the street cheered. He moved out not long after.

[Husar]

Well, here in europe people don't buy sellaway houses to live in for two years and then move on like nomads, they usually build a house to live in and call their home for the rest of their lives, so property value is secondary at best. Or that's how I perceive it anyway.

[KukriKhan]

Well, here in europe people don't buy sellaway houses to live in for two years and then move on like nomads, they usually build a house to live in and call their home for the rest of their lives, so property value is secondary at best. Or that's how I perceive it anyway.

It helps that your houses, and even apartments, are built to last for 300+ years. Where I live now, the oldest house in town has a brass plaque on it, celebrating that it was built in 1894. In the 21 years I've been here, it has changed owners 3 times, so I take your point.

[Prussian to the Iron]

well, admittedly, even if you intend on living somewhere your entire life, it may not always end up working out. your kids may want to sell it after your death, you might have problems with property taxes, you could be forced to move due to any number of things (jobs, neighbors, and amount of activity in your area are notable).


so, in short, it's nice to not worry about property value, but you do need to upkeep your house just in case. however, that DOES NOT mean being an insensitive dick about it and trying to force an old man to take out hsi flagpole.



honestly....think about it. if he removed the flag pole there is a large hole in the ground with nothing on it. sod helps i suppose, but thats not a good solution.

[Fisherking]

With regard to home owners associations, most American real-estate transactions have a clause in them stating that the home owner will abide by the regulations, even though there is no association at the time of purchase.

From what is said, flag poles are not expressly forbidden, but it is likely that all improvements be submitted to the board for approval.

The Board is likely four people sitting around a kitchen table once a month.

These people must have known who they were dealing with before they denied the request. Hence, some or all of the board have some agenda in the requests denial.

This type of controversy does not increase property values. It gives people pause before buying a home under their jurisdiction.

Their next meeting is likely to be more like a lynching with everyone calling for them to resign.

These people are usually about petty power. They will be losing it, I would imagine.

They should just quietly change their minds because even if they win in court, they only get more trouble.

I would worry that someone gives their names...

[Prussian to the Iron]

This type of controversy does not increase property values. It gives people pause before buying a home under their jurisdiction.



exactly. if I had wanted a house there, after this incident, I would be worried about what kind of rights I have, and whether or not I'd be allowed to even make any improvements at all. I think people will be more weary about HOA's now.

[Papewaio]

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf


Restrictions on Display of the Flag by
Real Estate Associations
The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 200556 prohibits a
condominium, cooperative, or real estate management association from adopting or
enforcing any policy or agreement that would restrict or prevent a member of the
association from displaying the flag in accordance with the Federal Flag Code on
residential property to which the member has a separate ownership interest.

So is the HOA breaking the law?

If this is the case he should use the 24hr illuminated rule too:

It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on
buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic
effect is desired, the flag may be displayed 24 hours a day if properly illuminated
during hours of darkness.23

I wonder what would happen if he sub-leased his flagpole to the DoD what would then happen?

In general in Aus we don't have many flagpoles or flags flying. I would be amazed to see a VC winner being banned from flying the Australia flag in Australia. I find it abhorrent that people are so fixated on money that they would tell a 90 year old war hero that he cannot continue doing something that is representative of what he believes in.

Given the list of courtesies given to Medal of Honor recipients I think the HOA is out of line with what they are asking. It would be interesting if another benefit added would be for MoH to have a flagpole any place they please.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf



So is the HOA breaking the law?



They can't stop you from flying a flag, but they can stop you from having a flagpole.

[Prussian to the Iron]

in the second quote it says "flagstaffs", so i assume that at least that one applies o flag poles as well, so if he keeps it illuminated (which, honestly, i think would lower property value more than just a sun-up to sun-down thing) he should be good.

[KukriKhan]

I wonder what would happen if he sub-leased his flagpole to the DoD what would then happen?

Fort Lee, Virginia (home of the Quartermaster Corps) is the nearest military installation to our hero's neighborhood. If you were the Command Sergeant Major of Fort Lee, wouldn't you be tempted to send an Honor Guard detail, with bugler, to his house at sunrise and sunset to formally observe Reveille and Retreat?

I would.

Some good lawyers could have big fun with the issues raised. Do HOA CCR's trump local zoning laws? Contract Law? Federal Flag Codes? Freedom of Speech rights?

Send it to the Supremes, sez I.

[drone]

Fort Lee, Virginia (home of the Quartermaster Corps) is the nearest military installation to our hero's neighborhood. If you were the Command Sergeant Major of Fort Lee, wouldn't you be tempted to send an Honor Guard detail, with bugler, to his house at sunrise and sunset to formally observe Reveille and Retreat?

:laugh4: That would show 'em! :laugh4:

[Beskar]

Only time you see flags in the United Kingdom are generally on Saint Days (Irish flag on St Patricks day, etc) or National Football games (Go England! Go Scotland! etc) or it's a member of the BNP. (self explanatory)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Fort Lee, Virginia (home of the Quartermaster Corps) is the nearest military installation to our hero's neighborhood. If you were the Command Sergeant Major of Fort Lee, wouldn't you be tempted to send an Honor Guard detail, with bugler, to his house at sunrise and sunset to formally observe Reveille and Retreat?

I would.

Some good lawyers could have big fun with the issues raised. Do HOA CCR's trump local zoning laws? Contract Law? Federal Flag Codes? Freedom of Speech rights?

Send it to the Supremes, sez I.Do you approve of a ninety year old woman who's worked in a kindergarten for fifty years to daily hang out diapers outside?

[Beskar]

Do you approve of a ninety year old woman who's worked in a kindergarten for fifty years to daily hang out diapers outside?

Only if they are clean.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Do you approve of a ninety year old woman who's worked in a kindergarten for fifty years to daily hang out diapers outside?

since that is not a real comparison at all, since diapers are not patriotic nor are they appropriate for hanging outside(like christmas lights in november or january), no, i do not.

[Meneldil]

since that is not a real comparison at all, since diapers are not patriotic nor are they appropriate for hanging outside(like christmas lights in november or january), no, i do not.

Star-spangled diapers then?

[Louis VI the Fat]

https://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4163/purple2bducks2bflag2bdi.jpg (https://img709.imageshack.us/i/purple2bducks2bflag2bdi.jpg/)

[Strike For The South]

Do you approve of a ninety year old woman who's worked in a kindergarten for fifty years to daily hang out diapers outside?

You still craped yourself at 5?

Well....That explains allot....:laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

At the age of one-and-a-half, I could already read and write so they took me out of childcare centre and into the kindergarten. :book:


The point is, should veterans receive a free pass? What of somebody who has worked as a nurse all his life? Does he get to fly a flag at ninety?

For me, it's more his age, not his having fought in the Civil War that irks me a bit about this.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

At the age of one-and-a-half, I could already read and write so they took me out of childcare centre and into the kindergarten. :book:


The point is, should veterans receive a free pass? What of somebody who has worked as a nurse all his life? Does he get to fly a flag at ninety?

For me, it's more his age, not his having fought in the Civil War that irks me a bit about this.

If someone deserves benefits, do we not give it to them because we aren't able to give those benefits to everyone who is deserving?

[Louis VI the Fat]

When the nightingale sings, do not a thousand lotus flowers blossom?





[on-topic]
If the vet got a lucky break for being a vet, then good for him and no complaints that others who deserve it also didn't get it. But here, benefits are not bestowed on anyone in particular, they are stripped of somebody in an active manner.

[Prussian to the Iron]

The point is, should veterans receive a free pass? What of somebody who has worked as a nurse all his life? Does he get to fly a flag at ninety?


yes, he does get to fly a flag at ninety. and yes a veteran of 3 wars and who played an instrumental part in a battle in italy during WWII and won an MoH because of it...does deserve a free pass on some things.

[Jolt]

Sgt (later 2Lt) Barfoot's MoH Citation (from here (http://distantcousin.com/Military/MedalofHonor/WWII/):
Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty on 23 May 1944, near Carano, Italy. With his platoon heavily engaged during an assault against forces well entrenched on commanding ground, 2d Lt. Barfoot (then Tech. Sgt.) moved off alone upon the enemy left flank. He crawled to the proximity of 1 machinegun nest and made a direct hit on it with a hand grenade, killing 2 and wounding 3 Germans. He continued along the German defense line to another machinegun emplacement, and with his tommygun killed 2 and captured 3 soldiers. Members of another enemy machinegun crew then abandoned their position and gave themselves up to Sgt. Barfoot. Leaving the prisoners for his support squad to pick up, he proceeded to mop up positions in the immediate area, capturing more prisoners and bringing his total count to 17. Later that day, after he had reorganized his men and consolidated the newly captured ground, the enemy launched a fierce armored counterattack directly at his platoon positions. Securing a bazooka, Sgt. Barfoot took up an exposed position directly in front of 3 advancing Mark VI tanks. From a distance of 75 yards his first shot destroyed the track of the leading tank, effectively disabling it, while the other 2 changed direction toward the flank. As the crew of the disabled tank dismounted, Sgt. Barfoot killed 3 of them with his tommygun. He continued onward into enemy terrain and destroyed a recently abandoned German fieldpiece with a demolition charge placed in the breech. While returning to his platoon position, Sgt. Barfoot, though greatly fatigued by his Herculean efforts, assisted 2 of his seriously wounded men 1,700 yards to a position of safety. Sgt. Barfoot's extraordinary heroism, demonstration of magnificent valor, and aggressive determination in the face of pointblank fire are a perpetual inspiration to his fellow soldiers.

This guy's actions and service ENABLED and guaranteed the freedom of a group like his HOA to be as wrong-headed as they wanna be without some fascist goose-stepper telling them different at bayonet-point. They should be more respectful.

Holy :daisy: that guy looks like the terminator! :stunned:

[Kralizec]

Should a combat veteran be allowed to burn car tires in his backyard just for fun?

You might not think that a flag pole is a big deal, but obviously many people do. I think that veterans should be treated generously by the government, but civilians shouldn't have to put up with double standards in daily life.

[Don Corleone]

I don't know what's more pathetic...

a bunch of eunuchs sitting around a homeowners association, trying to take away a medal of honor winner's right to fly a flag and claim its about the flagpole itself cause they're too chickenshit to make their point...

or

a bunch of euncuhs sitting around an internet message board carping about how it was the right thing to do, regardless of wherever they live here or not.

I dont' have the time or the energy to decide. Thanks for the reminder of why i need to take this place out of my favorites list. Pathetic. Sad. Completely and utterly without honor. There. Said my peace. Cheers, bye bye.

[A Very Super Market]

I'd say it'd be the eunuchs sitting around the internet message board. How the hell are they doing that?

[Kralizec]

I don't know what's more pathetic...

a bunch of eunuchs sitting around a homeowners association, trying to take away a medal of honor winner's right to fly a flag and claim its about the flagpole itself cause they're too chickenshit to make their point...

or

a bunch of euncuhs sitting around an internet message board carping about how it was the right thing to do, regardless of wherever they live here or not.

I dont' have the time or the energy to decide. Thanks for the reminder of why i need to take this place out of my favorites list. Pathetic. Sad. Completely and utterly without honor. There. Said my peace. Cheers, bye bye.

I'm not entirely sure, but I thought that you never were in the military?

Bleeding heart, sanctimonious hysteria does not suit you. And suggesting that everyone who disagrees with you has no testicles is just bad taste.

[Husar]

If I were an eunuch, I wouldn't have the balls to post here...

[Prussian to the Iron]

*googles "eunich"*


"AAAAAAAH!!!!!! MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!!"

[KukriKhan]

Do you approve of a ninety year old woman who's worked in a kindergarten for fifty years to daily hang out diapers outside?

Not mine to approve or disapprove - only hers. Her yard, her clothesline, her career, her method of proclamation.

[Lemur]

a bunch of euncuhs sitting around an internet message board carping about how it was the right thing to do, regardless of wherever they live here or not.
Speaking as a proud eunuch-American, I resent this characterization. Studies show that only 20% of eunuchs have internet access.

[KukriKhan]

Speaking as a proud eunuch-American, I resent this characterization. Studies show that only 20% of eunuchs have internet access.

And "carping"; what about that? I've fished those pretty fishies our of their decorative koi-ponds when nobody was looking. They taste like crap. I think somebody is guilty of mis-spelling there.

[Beskar]

Eunuchs were reknown for being very beaucratic efficient and doing good work in organisational practises and doings. They were constantly pumped with testorone which gets in the way, also, the lack of it, nulled their impulses or allowed (mainly sexual) desires to get in the way.

[caravel]

I don't see how a flagpole can be offensive or compared with anti social behaviour? Let's suppose he has a collection of mobile atrillery and a few tanks in his garden, that certainly might be an issue for someone. But a flag pole makes no noise or sound nor does it really block any light, so this is simply nitpicking bureaucratic idiocy to the extreme.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Let's suppose he has a collection of mobile artillery and a few tanks in his garden, that certainly might be an issue for someone.

speak for yourself; the guy across the street has a collection of tanks from WWI up in his front yard. nothin like waking up to a line of tank barrels staring at you.

but thats nothing compared to the guy with a few flak 88's and some anti-air guns on his roof! helps to defend against my zerg-rush and my neighbors air force, but my anti-tank missles easily wipe out most opposition.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't see how a flagpole can be offensive or compared with anti social behaviour? Let's suppose he has a collection of mobile atrillery and a few tanks in his garden, that certainly might be an issue for someone. But a flag pole makes no noise or sound nor does it really block any light, so this is simply nitpicking bureaucratic idiocy to the extreme.

But he signed up for nitpicking bureaucracy when he bought the house. It's like joining a club that charges membership dues and saying you can't pay them because you don't have any money.

If he was on the board, I wouldn't be surprised if he voted in favor of a similar nitpicky action against one of his neighbors--perhaps if they were flying the flag upside down (which might be technically illegal), he'd report them...without really knowing the person, you can't come to his defense with complete confidence.

[Strike For The South]

I don't know what's more pathetic...

a bunch of eunuchs sitting around a homeowners association, trying to take away a medal of honor winner's right to fly a flag and claim its about the flagpole itself cause they're too chickenshit to make their point...

or

a bunch of euncuhs sitting around an internet message board carping about how it was the right thing to do, regardless of wherever they live here or not.

I dont' have the time or the energy to decide. Thanks for the reminder of why i need to take this place out of my favorites list. Pathetic. Sad. Completely and utterly without honor. There. Said my peace. Cheers, bye bye.


Mountain meet Molehill

[Prussian to the Iron]

If he was on the board, I wouldn't be surprised if he voted in favor of a similar nitpicky action against one of his neighbors--perhaps if they were flying the flag upside down (which might be technically illegal), he'd report them...without really knowing the person, you can't come to his defense with complete confidence.

if the person had a mental condition (like retardation) i could excuse that. i'd help him with it actually. maybe thats just my kind helping nature :beam:

[Jolt]

I don't know what's more pathetic...

a bunch of eunuchs sitting around a homeowners association, trying to take away a medal of honor winner's right to fly a flag and claim its about the flagpole itself cause they're too chickenshit to make their point...

or

a bunch of euncuhs sitting around an internet message board carping about how it was the right thing to do, regardless of wherever they live here or not.

I dont' have the time or the energy to decide. Thanks for the reminder of why i need to take this place out of my favorites list. Pathetic. Sad. Completely and utterly without honor. There. Said my peace. Cheers, bye bye.

You know how it goes.


Eunuchs have a natural attraction for flagpoles...

...

:wacko:

[Prussian to the Iron]

You know how it goes.


Eunuchs have a natural attraction for flagpoles...

...

:wacko:

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Pannonian]

I'm wondering if he should move to Headington (http://www.headington.org.uk/shark/) instead.

[Papewaio]

You know how it goes.


Eunuchs have a natural attraction for flagpoles...

...

:wacko:

Actually they have a natural anger towards anything erect... and with those who have the balls to perform above and beyond.

:laugh4:

[spmetla]

Well it seems that this issue has made it to the White House. Though Obama hasn't commented his press secretary has:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/12/ap_army_moh_recipient_flagpole_120809/


Obama spokesman: MoH flagpole dispute absurd

The Associated Press
Posted : Tuesday Dec 8, 2009 9:16:36 EST

WASHINGTON — White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Monday that it is “silly” to think that a 90-year-old Medal of Honor recipient is being asked to remove a flagpole from his front yard.

Retired Army Col. Van T. Barfoot, a World War II veteran, is fighting to keep the 21-foot pole at his suburban Richmond home. His homeowners association said the pole violates the neighborhood’s aesthetic guidelines. It pushed back a deadline to remove it to Friday.

Gibbs said during a briefing that he hasn’t spoken directly to President Barack Obama about the flap. But he said “the president believes — I think all of us believe — that the very least we can do is show our gratitude and thanks to somebody that served our country so admirably.”

He went on to say that “it’s silly to ... think that somebody that’s done that can’t have a flagpole and ... show the proper respect and appreciation that any flag deserves by flying that in their neighborhood.”

Other supporters include U.S. Sens. Mark R. Warner and Jim Webb, both Virginia Democrats. They and veterans groups have rallied behind Barfoot, who was awarded the lofty Congressional honor for actions including standing up to three German tanks with a bazooka and stopping their advance.

Warner is among those offering to help break the impasse with the Sussex Square homeowners’ association, which voted unanimously to ask the senator’s office’s help in reaching a compromise.

In a letter last week, Webb urged the association to “consider the exceptional nature of Col. Barfoot’s service when considering his pride and determination in honoring our flag.”

The association in a statement said the dispute is not about the American flag but the flagpole.

Barfoot’s fight also has lit up veterans bulletin boards and blog sites supporting him.

Barfoot won the Medal of Honor for actions while his platoon was under German assault near Carano, Italy, in May 1944.

He also won the Purple Heart and other decorations, and served in Korea and Vietnam before retiring from the service in 1974.

The Associated Press left a message at a number listed for the homeowners group early Tuesday seeking comment.

[A Very Super Market]

Essentially, the administration called the HoA a bunch of douchebags. Well put.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Well it seems that this issue has made it to the White House. Though Obama hasn't commented his press secretary has:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/12/ap_army_moh_recipient_flagpole_120809/


Essentially, the administration called the HoA a bunch of douchebags. Well put.

finally, obamas administration is doing something right.

[Lemur]

Looks as though having the entire nation, from Fox News to President Obama (not to mention the Guvnor of your own state), declare you to be a bunch of jerks, has repercussions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/09/AR2009120904393.html):


In the end, it took the combined forces of the American Legion, members of Congress, untold numbers of sympathetic veterans and the spokesman for the leader of the free world to persuade the homeowners association to back off its threat to sue a war hero. Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.) finally brokered a deal that will allowBarfoot to keep his flagpole.

"All my life, from childhood to now, I have been able to fly the flag," Barfoot told supporters standing outside his house Wednesday. "In the time I have left, I plan to continue to fly the American flag without interference."

The rules at Sussex Square are simple: "no building, fence, flagpole, wall, improvement or other structure" may be put up without the association's approval. Like the nearly 60 million Americans who live in communities governed by homeowners associations, Barfoot and his neighbors must seek approval before even painting their house a different color.

[spmetla]

Glad he's able to fly the flag. :balloon2::balloon2::balloon2:

[Subotan]

Putting up the flag of North Vietnam would have worked just as well.

[Beskar]

Could be worse, he could be one of the Red Necks flying a confederate flag.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Could be worse, he could be one of the Red Necks flying a confederate flag.

:laugh4:

[drone]

Could be worse, he could be one of the Red Necks flying a confederate flag.

This is in Richmond. I'm sure he's got a few neighbors with Dixie hanging off the porch.

[Prussian to the Iron]

This is in Richmond. I'm sure he's got a few neighbors with Dixie hanging off the porch.

about every other car here has it. not too many houses though.