Two Questions [Archive]

Hamburglar

03-07-2003, 20:57

The last one was in the Korean war from what I remember. Saw a history channel doc on it and read an article in a military history magazine. Honestly I can't remember anything else about it except that the Yanks charged up a hill at the North Koreans and caught them off guard. Yanks took some losses on the way up but once they got in close they slaughtered the Koreans.

chilliwilli

03-07-2003, 23:38

Weren't there bayonets used in Vietnam?

Muneyoshi

03-08-2003, 06:57

Im not too sure if they were, cause part of me remembers seeing them on a few guns, but another part of me doesnt remember seeing them at all. Id think they would be used at least by some but not too many, and think they were rarely used for h2h, perhaps more of a "terror item"

And here (http://medievalrussia.freeservers.com/military.html) is a good site on russian armor, soldiers, and navy (and some other stuff)

Kongamato

03-09-2003, 06:55

I read about an Afghan that had been bayoneted for no reason by a Taliban member in a "crimes of the Taliban" article. This means that bayonets are mounted on the probable weapon, the AK47.

Anyway IMO there is no reason not to have a bayonet. It is basically a dagger that is drawn at all times. I'm not a soldier, but I sure would take one into an urban combat situation.

Pablo Sanchez

03-09-2003, 06:58

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Mar. 08 2003,23:55)]Anyway IMO there is no reason not to have a bayonet. It is basically a dagger that is drawn at all times. I'm not a soldier, but I sure would take one into an urban combat situation.
A bayonet weighs about as much as a full magazine from most modern assault rifles, and it's very minimally useful, even in urban combat. They're really only good for crowd control, be they rioters or prisoners.

Hakonarson

03-09-2003, 22:19

Bayonets are more about confidence - boostign your own and reducing the other guys. Bayonet training has alwys been more about instilling ferocity and agression - even in times when the generals actually expected their troops to use them as battlefield weapons.

The number of times infantry with firearms (on both sides) clashed with bayonets in the open can be counted on one hand....without any fingers or thumbs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Pablo Sanchez

03-10-2003, 04:06

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Mar. 09 2003,15:19)]Bayonets are more about confidence - boostign your own and reducing the other guys. Bayonet training has alwys been more about instilling ferocity and agression - even in times when the generals actually expected their troops to use them as battlefield weapons.

The number of times infantry with firearms (on both sides) clashed with bayonets in the open can be counted on one hand....without any fingers or thumbs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I've read that most casualties in hand to hand combat, even with troops equipped with bayonets, are inflicted by bludgeoning attacks with the butt of the weapon. The only time the bayonet is used is against a fleeing or prostrate enemy.

Kongamato

03-10-2003, 08:25

What am I going to use to cut heads off then?

redrooster

03-10-2003, 14:41

bayonet is not as heavy a full mag. assault on objective is often carried out with bayonet mounted and usage of bayonet is not only practiced in h2h drills but also charging to dislodge entrenched enemies.
bayonets are also used for removing jammed rounds, mine detection(sounds stupid but it is actually taught)also used to help place charges and mines and open coconuts. oh, and for those unfortunate enough, some were forced to dig shell scraps with just their hands and bayonet

Pablo Sanchez

03-11-2003, 03:22

Quote[/b] (redrooster @ Mar. 10 2003,07:41)]bayonet is not as heavy a full mag. assault on objective is often carried out with bayonet mounted and usage of bayonet is not only practiced in h2h drills but also charging to dislodge entrenched enemies.
bayonets are also used for removing jammed rounds, mine detection(sounds stupid but it is actually taught)also used to help place charges and mines and open coconuts. oh, and for those unfortunate enough, some were forced to dig shell scraps with just their hands and bayonet
I can't dispute that a large knife is useful. But I will dispute that a knife affixed to the end of a gun is useful in combat. I have never heard of a successful attack with fixed bayonets against an enemy which possessed any sort of organization or morale, at least not since 1918.

redrooster

03-11-2003, 06:35

Quote[/b] (Pablo Sanchez @ Mar. 10 2003,20:22)]I can't dispute that a large knife is useful. But I will dispute that a knife affixed to the end of a gun is useful in combat. I have never heard of a successful attack with fixed bayonets against an enemy which possessed any sort of organization or morale, at least not since 1918.
of course there is no more bayonet charges involving a sizable amount of men but the fact is a bayonet charge is still very much part of infantry tactics especially against entrenched enemy. also there are plenty of instances of bayonet charges through ww2 and the vietnam war. although nowadays bayonet charges could be confined to close terrain fighting like in jungles.
standard tactic in clearing trenches and fox holes would involve a fire support element pinning the enemy down and a flanking element moving in to charge the trench from the side and the finale is still performed with cold steel.

Red Peasant

03-11-2003, 20:42

Quote[/b] (redrooster @ Mar. 11 2003,04:35)]of course there is no more bayonet charges involving a sizable amount of men but the fact is a bayonet charge is still very much part of infantry tactics especially against entrenched enemy. also there are plenty of instances of bayonet charges through ww2 and the vietnam war. although nowadays bayonet charges could be confined to close terrain fighting like in jungles.
standard tactic in clearing trenches and fox holes would involve a fire support element pinning the enemy down and a flanking element moving in to charge the trench from the side and the finale is still performed with cold steel.
If I remember rightly, I think the Paras did it against the Argies at Goose Green in the Falklands....they were running low on ammo.

Galestrum

03-11-2003, 22:53

I was in the USMC from 92-94, they still train with the bayonet.

It is a very effective weapon, you just would rather shoot someone from 500 yards as oppossed to charge them, but its a nice tool when things get scary up close - anyone that thinks its not effective simply has never had to defend or use one.

Pablo Sanchez

03-12-2003, 00:04

Quote[/b] (Galestrum @ Mar. 11 2003,15:53)]I was in the USMC from 92-94, they still train with the bayonet.

It is a very effective weapon, you just would rather shoot someone from 500 yards as oppossed to charge them, but its a nice tool when things get scary up close - anyone that thinks its not effective simply has never had to defend or use one.
Hmm, two of the soldiers with whom I have had a limited correspondence over the internet regard it as useless. But, them being a sniper and an engineer, they may have a tilted perception.

redrooster

03-12-2003, 00:31

well galestrum was in the usmc and i was in the infantry and bayonet charges remain very much part of small group and small arms tactics......
also like harko mentioned, bayonet drills were for instilling confidence and aggression jsut like although we dun march into battle in ranks and files anymore but we still practice foot drill on the parade squad for espirit de corp and discipline

Mr Frost

03-12-2003, 10:16

Japanese had a rather high opinion of bayonet charges for most of the Second World War , their prefered method of attack could be considered to have been a good artillery barrage {and air strikes} and when the infantry are in place and the enemy suitably softened up to charge in and overrun . The WW II Japanese army was basically a "rush" type infantry force . That probebly had far more effect on them not putting enough R&D into tanks until their industry was so damaged and over burdened that they could not develop the tanks they should than most would consider .

Interestingly , the Japanese riflemen were more accurate shooting moving targets than stationary . Go figure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Negative

03-15-2003, 17:58

Also bayonets would be useful when steath is an issue.

Hakonarson

03-17-2003, 01:07

Japanese bayonet charges were almost universally carried out late in the war when the best of their infantry was dead and the troops were often Korean and Chinese conscripts, rear area, naval and airforce personnel.

this applies equally to the commanding staff in many places - they were poorly trained , and even when they did have good troops available they were unable to use them properly.

The Imperial Army's prefered infantry tactics were infiltration at dusk or dawn.

Where do you get teh idea that Japanese musketry was better when they were moving?

Longshanks

04-10-2003, 17:55

Quote[/b] (Shralp17 @ Mar. 07 2003,00:11)]Does anyone know when the last US bayonet charge took place?
A few days ago actually. Not really a Napoleonic bayonet charge, but it was a hand-to-hand fight in which bayonets were used. The 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment was fighting with some Jordanian, Sudanese, Egyptian and Syrian volunteers in marshland. The fight was close-quarters and became a hand-to-hand scrap, the Marines with fixed bayonets. The jihadist volunteers were routed, many of the dead and wounded with stab wounds.

Lord Godfrey

04-10-2003, 21:53

Captain Lewis Millet earned the Medal of Honor for leading his company on a bayonet charge up a Korean hill in 1951. I was in charge of an officer’s professional development class at Ft. Ord in 1992 and arrived at the Officer’s Club early to make sure everything was set up. I saw a white haired colonel in uniform standing at the bar with the Medal of Honor Ribbon on his chest and almost empty bottle of beer in his hand. His name tag read Millet. I knew who he was and quickly bought him another round and asked if he would like to reminisce with some fellow infantry officers. I scrapped the content of our class and Col Millet gave a very inspiring talk on leadership and the background leading up to his famous bayonet charge.

The use of the bayonet is more about instilling the confidence to close with and destroy your enemy than actually using the pointed end. At the appropriate time, you want your soldiers to move forward and get into close contact with the enemy instead of exchanging fire from 200-300 meters.

lonewolf371

04-10-2003, 22:51

The bayonet can still be used today, but it's not as effective. The problem lies with range accuracy which heavily increased around the American Civil War. Guns were able to fire farther distances with more accuracy. Earlier guns did not have this, so charging in with a few bayonets right after the enemy fired would give them a nice little suprise and a good bit of confusion. In addition to this the enemy may not have their own baynotes fixed, which would make a melee slaughter. Personally, I believe that currently the best use for a bayonet is... a can opener.

Lechev

04-14-2003, 19:23

I beg to differ lonewolf. Bayonet can be use as a primitive way to detect mine if no mine detector is available through probing the blade about 45 degree into the ground at a site suspected to be filled with mines.

Hakonarson

04-15-2003, 05:11

I beg to differ with lonewolf too - stabbing someone with a baynet today is precisely as effective as it has ever been http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ..... or perhaps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif is more appropriate......

Lechev

04-15-2003, 16:03

Quote[/b] (redrooster @ Mar. 12 2003,06:31)]although we dun march into battle in ranks and files anymore but we still practice foot drill on the parade squad for espirit de corp and discipline
Yep, I can still remember in those days that we dread the Bayonet drills as its physically demanding with lots of curses hurling at us by the sarges/trainner/cmdr when we were going through the basic training as recruits. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

MonkeyMan

04-15-2003, 16:36

MrNiceGuy Kindly posted a few links for you in the Entrance Hall.

Quote[/b] ]If Shralp is still interested in links to russian military and bayonet charges try the following:

Russia - Crimean war (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/6247/95836)
UK bayonet usage (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?###=/news/2002/09/15/nbayo15.###)
Russian - Borodino (http://www.wtj.com/archives/lejeune1.htm)
UK miniature gamers resource (http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/)
Russian military history (http://www.deremilitari.org/easteuropewarfare.htm)

*Hope you don't mind MonkeyMan just cleared up the links for easier listing - Ith.