Conversion to Christianity?

[Yesugey]

I converting my clan to Christianity only if they were really converted historically. And i disband all my Monks and Temples, then i build my army based on Muskets.

Specially on the fog, only 3 unit of Musketeers can hold an army of Samurai, It become like same at the "The Last Samurai" Movie ^^

[caravel]

Welcome Yesugey. I have moved this post from the 7 year old thread you originally posted it in.


On topic: I mostly convert my clan to christianity, regardless of which clan, as it makes for the most interesting campaigns.

:bow:

[Wishazu]

Hi Yesugey.

:bow:

As to converting, my favourite tactic is to wait untill the Dutch appear before making the decision. The Portuguese catholics really irritate me for some reason lol also, whilst trading with the dutch you don`t have to convert so can keep producing Warrior Monks too.

:bow:

[caravel]

You should should really try converting immediately Wishazu-sama - even if for one campaign only. I was once of the same opinion as yourself, but once I realised the true power of our bloodsucking reptilian overlords potential of converting as soon as possible, building churches and training teppo, I was quite surprised to say the least.

:bow:

[Yesugey]

Hey Asai, Wishazu.

And Thanks for moving the post.

In STW there are not much difference between the clans, so i prefer to put rules of myself. Thats why i do my converting just after Spanish arrives, not even wait for 1 turn. No matter how many Temples i have and how vulnerable i am against the rebellions at the moment.

[gollum]

IIRC in the Last Samurai the musket units did not hold any samurai in the fog - they were just wiped out.

[Togakure]

One great thing about converting early is early access to the morale penalty inflicted by firearms. In STW, morale matters, and even the lowly arquebus can be quite useful, particularly when coordinated with other morale attacks like flanking, cavalry charges, monk attacks, archery fire, assassination of a high-honor general on the field, etc.. The arq suffers in range and is more sensitive to moisture, but it's more powerful, and bottom line: still inflicts the morale penalty. If I go the Christian route, I'll usually have 1-2 units in an "ideal" 16-unit stack. If conditions permit, they can contribute much to routing the enemy and winning the battle.

Edit: on the subject of Warrior Monks, many times I have gone Christian in mid-game while controlling provinces with Buddhist Temples, producing monks, without incident. I just stationed a larger ashigaru and shinobi garrison in the province with the temple, and perhaps an extra ashi and/or spy in neighboring provinces that are known to be rebellious (those surrounding Kaga, Kii etc.). Best of both worlds.

[gollum]

The most chances of rebellion usually take place as population switches from one faith to the other. However, even when rebellions do happen, they are not as big as they could have been.

So, yes its quite a viable option actually to get away with both, although it would have been much better to be still viable but more unstable in practice.

[Pikenier]

When exactly does a faction convert to Christianity? As soon as you accept the Portuguese offer in the Throneroom or when you build your first church?

The reason I´m asking is that in my current Shimazu campaign (my first STW campaign :)) the Mori have also converted to Christianity. But only after they conquered one of my provinces with church existing. And the Portuguese ship is sailing on the south coast the whole time where no Mori port exists afaik. So have they converted because they accept a portuguese offer or accidently because conquering one of my christian provinces?

[gollum]

This is tricky but bear with me. Your Daimyo accepts Christianity as his own religion once he builds or owns a Church. In that case the clan is given the Christian sign in the info menu and your provinces will start to gradually convert and opposition is met until the surpass the 50% limit.

However even if you don't build any Church and don't turn Christian yourself, the Portuguese will start spread Christianity once you accept a trade deal with them. This however mean that although Christianity can cause unrest the Daimyo and the majority of the (buddhist) subjects are not in opposition and the effect is far smaller.

In order for a Christian to turn Buddhist again all is needed is to build a Buddhist temple. Once this is done Christian status is lost again. However if now the majority of the population is Christian expect unrest anew.

By the way the only way for a Buddhist daimyo to boost Buddhism is via the temples, which are expensive. The Christian Daimyo on the other hand apart from Churches and the Cathedral can use the cheap and handy Jesuit priests that turn japan Christian in no time.

:bow:

[ReluctantSamurai]

Your Daimyo accepts Christianity as his own religion once he builds or owns a Church.

Or builds a trading post. You can accept the offer anytime, but as long as you don't build either a church or a trading post, you won't begin the conversion process. You can defer as long as you like.......

[gollum]

Not exaclty sure about this, but its probably because the original that i usually play has slightly diferent behaviour in regards to this from MI/WE. You are most likely right.

:bow:

[Pikenier]

So I was right with my assumption? The Mori converted only because they captured my province where I had built a church?

That´s interesting, maybe i can use this to cause some unrest at the other Daimyos too. Conquer a distant province building a church and retreat afterwards.

[gollum]

yes, you could do that in principle.

[caravel]

By the way the only way for a Buddhist daimyo to boost Buddhism is via the temples, which are expensive. The Christian Daimyo on the other hand apart from Churches and the Cathedral can use the cheap and handy Jesuit priests that turn japan Christian in no time.
A minor correction; buddhist emissaries also propogate buddhism - at least they do in STW MI/WE v1.02b.

Yohei

[gollum]

They do? That's great news. Thanks Yohei. I always thought they should have.

:bow:

[Jef Costello]

I never used to bother with converting because the first few times I tried to use firearm units they got slaughtered, now I've worked out how to use them I use them if I capture the productiion facilities.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I never used to bother with converting because the first few times I tried to use firearm units they got slaughtered

You will find, as you become more proficient with them, that you will have to nerf them back to their original vanilla stats (from what they are given in WE/MI). And even further, you will probably limit yourself to the number of them in your army. Otherwise, they become too powerful.

I, personally, have a limit of four but I usually have only two.....three in dbl bridge provinces.

[Jef Costello]

You will find, as you become more proficient with them, that you will have to nerf them back to their original vanilla stats (from what they are given in WE/MI). And even further, you will probably limit yourself to the number of them in your army. Otherwise, they become too powerful.

I, personally, have a limit of four but I usually have only two.....three in dbl bridge provinces.
I've never altered any of the stats (don't know how for a start) but I don't find them to be a worry. I don't use them because they come later in the game when I am mostly on the atack. They are handy for defence, especially in bridge provinces.

[caravel]

I've never altered any of the stats (don't know how for a start) but I don't find them to be a worry. I don't use them because they come later in the game when I am mostly on the atack. They are handy for defence, especially in bridge provinces.
They are actually available very early on, but you need to accept the Portuguese and start building churches first.

:bow:

[A Nerd]

I never really learned to use muskets effectively. Always developed them once the Dutch would visit though. Never converted to Christianity with the Portoguese. Never really wanted to sacrifice my warrior monks, I am a real infantry buff! From reading this thread though it would seem you can be christian and raise warrior monks too though. Call me strange, but I think I would feel alittle guilty doing that though...mabey I'm afraid of dishonoring those fanatical monks, I don't know!

[gollum]

Not being able to use muskets happened to all starting players with STW - once you get the hang of it, you'll realise what terrifyingly effective units they are especially in MI that they are far more powerful than in the original release.

There is an thread here from the Samurai wars sub-forum, as to how to use guns. It is written for multiplayer but the same principles apply:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?71538-Teppos

Some of the principles are for more advanced play, but nonetheless all are good info.

:bow:

[ReluctantSamurai]

As has been already pointed out, you can gain access to guns quite early by accepting the Portuguese offer. I never wait for the Dutch as I can have muskets (rather than the arquebus) long before they arrive. I seem to recall having them as soon as 1560 (with a 1530 campaign) or 1565 (muskets, that is.....I never use the arquebus for very long).

I don't know which version you play, but in WE, the 1580 campaigns will have at least 3 Daimyo's converted to Christianity already, and the arquebus as field units. With some clans (particularly Oda and Shimazu) the musket will not be far behind. As Oda, the 1580 campaign will be nearly impossible without guns. I've always thought it to be the ultimate nightmare challenge for a STW player to play that campaign without guns:dizzy2: I can't even imagine trying it, myself, and that's my favorite, most often played campaign..............

@ Jef

Once you get the hang of them, teppo can be as devastating on the attack as they are on the defense. You have to use them quite differently, of course, and you have to be very careful what type of terrain you use them on, because they are a direct line-of-sight type of fire. One of their very best uses on the attack is taking a bridge province. When enemy melee units turn their backs to return to their positions (after routing your sacrificial lambs) they take devastating fire in their rear and the morale-breaking effect of guns is amplified to its' greatest extent. Only very high honor units led by a high honor Taisho/Daimyo has any chance at resisting, and even then they often don't.

My suggestion is to set up some practice battles and try out some of the different techniques presented in the link that gollum was so kind as to provide........

[cori]

Convert or not convert? For me it depends on a clan I am playing..
Mori-never.. Uesugy and Hojo –no real need.. All other –convert immediately..
Main benefit-you not depends on good harvests so much…Very easy you can make trade and cathedral income equal yours farm ones, dubling totals. When in bad year will be only 12.5 % drop in total money.
And I never been fond of monks, if not play Mori-there are too expensive..

[caravel]

Welcome back cori,

Yes it's a very clan dependent thing. While most clans have a lot to gain, i.e. the Shimazu, Oda and Imagawa with their poor farmlands and split or exposed territories, with others the gains are not so pronounced or in the case of Mori, they lose the Monks their clan is focused around.

Trade and cathedral income are huge however, so even the Mori that, as with the Shimazu, start with poor farmlands can benefit greatly.

The Uesugi, Hojo and Takeda, have access to richer lands, so conversion is not really a necessity for them. The Uesugi also have the cheaper, archers making teppo a little less useful, the Hojo can build cheaper castles meaning income is not as stretched and the Takeda are more cavalry focused, so it makes more sense to spend your koku on these than on teppo units. It's by no means a rule though - a very individual thing.

Aside from the obvious advantages of teppo units and cathedral/trade income already discussed, there are other benefits of conversion. Your units will no longer suffer the morale penalty when facing the Warriori Monks, also because your lands differ religiously from most of your rivals, invaders will find it hard to hold down your provinces. This works the other way as well of course, but isn't a problem if you send in the priests en masse for a few seasons prior to invasion.

:bow:

[Brandy Blue]

Send in the priests? I thought that conversion in STW was done by churches and cathedrals, or temples if Bhuddist, and that these buildings work on nearby provinces as well. Do the priests play a role in conversion?

[gollum]

a massive role BB. use them next time ;)

[caravel]

Send in the priests? I thought that conversion in STW was done by churches and cathedrals, or temples if Bhuddist, and that these buildings work on nearby provinces as well. Do the priests play a role in conversion?
Conversion works similarly to that in MTW. Priests, churches, the cathedral, buddhist temples and buddhist emissaries all play a part.

[Brandy Blue]

Thanks for the info. I don't know how conversions happened in real life, but it sort of makes sense if priests help.

[gollum]

Kinda makes sense, yes :) They're also dirt cheap, and you can make swarms of them ;)

[chaouki]

and let the enemy's ninjas kill them for level up's :D

[Brandy Blue]

Well, I can't honestly say that I ever really thought about how conversion happens in the game. I just stepped up security, scattered churches throughout the land, and settled back to try to be a wise father to my smaller warriors, or whatever it is the Portugese ambassador called me. But now you've got me curious.

Looks like the game recognizes three models of how conversion happens.

1: Convert the boss. The rest will follow. Do people automatically convert to the rulers religion like in MTW?

2: The St Paul version. Send out the missionaries to convert people. That's what your Jesuit priests are for.

3: The base camp version. Monestaries, especially the one on Holy Isle, are supposed to have played a key role in the conversion of northern England, and so can your Japanese churches.

There are other ways to think about conversion, but the game seems to only consider these three. I wonder how things happened in real life. Some diamyos converted, but did that lead to mass conversions in their clans, or did the leader convert because thats what the clan was doing anyway? What role did the foreign priests play? Did they do most of the converting, or did Japanese Christians do most of the converting, while the priests mostly taught, preached, said the Mass, etc? I believe there was some sporadic persecution. On the whole did that weaken or strengthen Japanese Christianity? Well, later it pretty much stamped it out, but I mean in the period covered by the game.

[gollum]

Hello BB,
the Jesuits that arrived in Japan spread a militant vesion of Christianity and within a relatively short period of time they had converted large parts of the population including lords. The "Kirishitan" (Christians in Japanese accent) included foremost generals and Daimyos. The game offers you conversion from churches and priests, but not automatically from the conversion of the daimyo as in MTW that the religion of the faction automatically propagates - once you convert you need to convert your subjects and this can be a tricky period if not plpanned. There were sporadic persecutions, yes, and towards the end of the period large scale persecutions. Japanese Christians of teh period masquearaded statues of the Virgin as statues of the Boddhisattva Kannon (the Bodhisattva (enlightened being) of compassion, female in representation), and did other such camouflages, as collective law in Japan was (and is) pretty severe.

For more, have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirishitan

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

I would not convert,in the game sense really.

The Matchlock ashaguri are good ,but not that good,the friebombers are ok.

There are many ways to defeat the peasent matchlock,even the samurai matchlock are no good.

No,I would not do it.

[gollum]

hello takeda shogunate - this is the forum for STW1, your comments sound for STW2 :) - but welcome nevertheless.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

oh,so you are my boss now?you're going to tell me what to do now?:furious3:

[gollum]

heh, you're so charming when you get angry, you know that? :)

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

eh?????

[gollum]

What happened, can't read very well lately Emperor? :)

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

what happened?

[gollum]

eh?????

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

forget it,the only thing we have in common is that battle,when you buy it of course,I will battle with you.and I will if not take my revenge.

[gollum]

You have much more in common if only you could calm down and behave a little better and without anger...

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

you're the one that angered me in the first place.

lets forget this

and I will await ,then we battle on the game

[gollum]

You get angered by anyone who you judge not to be "nice" to you... because you want to be part of the place but without having to do the work for it... then you go nuts and ask for matches that you cannot win against people that actually have nothing against you and you should be making friends with... better calm down, cause the one that gets hurt is actually you, not me or anyone else you fight with... you are clearly young and new in the community so be a bit more patient... also remember who made first friends with you in this forum in your previous account that got banned because again you couldn't control your temper...

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

You called me a troll,you insulted me.You further said I was nothing more than some idiot who loves to troll/.

That was high level operating docteur ;) Thanks for it and for opening the thread :).

You get angered by anyone who you judge not to be "nice" to you...er...I dont get that.

ask for matches that you cannot win against people that actually have nothing against you.and?

Yeah,you hold something against me.

nd you should be making friends with...

Lets see,I have a whole load of enemies.

better calm down, cause the one that gets hurt is actually you
True.

also remember who made first friends with you in this forum in your previous account that got banned because again you couldn't control your temper.
yeah you did.


Is there anymore you need to say,anymore you can embarrass me?
anything else or can I get back to editing my story?

[gollum]

I never called you a troll nor an idiot. I said you were trolling and spamming. I called you fellow, and that is not a swear word. My problem was your actions not you personally. The reason your actions were a problem is because you want to show that you are and that you know more than you are and you know. When people expose you, they tell you that you are not as big as you want to show, you get angry. This is your mistake and it has nothing to do with insults. I like you to be honest with you, but i don't like your mistakes. If you calm down, be more patient and accept that you are new in this community and that there are others that know more and are better than you, then you will have a good time here and others around you too. If not, you will keep getting angry and getting infraction points, warnings, bans that will get you more angry and so even more hurt and with less friends and more points,warnings and bans. Choice is yours.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

you want to show that you are and that you know more than you are and you know. When people expose you, they tell you that you are not as big as you want to show, you get angry.

I was not happy in that thread that people could think they could insult CA.CA spend a lot of time creating this game,some respect should be given to them,least a thanks or something.

I'm not into boasting.Yes,there are more better players than me and more than I can ever hope to be(At this moment,whats the use of me becoming a good general,when I can't understand the basics.)

then you will have a good time here and others around you too
I doubt you highly on that comment.Before that thread I was having some good time at least.

I am calm now.

aslo could you check out my story?

give some critism?feedback?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?134700-My-story.

[caravel]

Hello Takeda Shogunate,

Criticism is not the same as insulting - you're right that insulting is wrong, but criticism is very necessary. Without criticism CA would not have improved the game to the level it is at today. In fact many are of the opinion that it has not improved enough, but that's another story.

Be calm, have fun take it easy. Don't worry about what other people say - if you like the game, that's enough.

I will check out your story.

Regards

Asai Nagamasa

:bow:

[gollum]

Originally posted by Takeda Shogunate
I was not happy in that thread that people could think they could insult CA.CA spend a lot of time creating this game,some respect should be given to them,least a thanks or something.

People here have been buying, playing, organising tournaments, fansites, AARs etc for 10 years now. They criticise CA, as they try to tell you in that thread, because CA time and time again, has promised things that did not deliver over tthe last 10 years. People who play for that long know that as they had to live with those broken promises. As much as you want to defend them, many of the people in that thread were supporting CA even before TW became major success.

Also you fail to realise that the managers of CA are probably often more intent to have more sales than a good game. However the players here are intend in having the best game (no bugs etc) with the best gameplay (fix the stats for attack defence, the missiles etc) possible for mp and sp. This is not always going to happen if CA is not actively told that they need to fix it, because CA aims as i said more in selling. If nobody was paying attention to the game's faults CA would be all the more happier - as they wouldn't have to waste time to fix and improve the game.

You couldn't understand all this, understandably, because you are a new player and that's fine. What was not understandable was that you pushed for your point of view, without having the community and game and working with CA experiences. You just pushed because you "don't like to be told" like many young people. And then you get angry.


I'm not into boasting.

And yet you don't like to be corrected in the views you held. Instead of raising hell when your view is not accepted you are better off asking other people why you are wrong and think it over for a while to see if what they tell you might actually hold some truth. But you don;t do that. You just get angry and push with righteousness and confrontation. I realise that not all people have my p[atience to deal with younger members, but you are really pushing forward your opinions that in the eyes of experienced players are simply not true.

Instead of holding on to your opinions in this way, try to ask. Ask why they tell you you are wrong and think about it for a while and see the opinions of others n practice before you conclude.

You also need to realise that every forum has its own fans that view the game differently. Single players view the game very differently than multiplayers. You can't argue in an mp forum about sp. Again you got stuck in your opinion and didn't wanted to be told it was not good and pushed forward for it, until it was you against everyone there.


I doubt you highly on that comment.Before that thread I was having some good time at least.

As i said: i like you and think that, in time, if you manage to control your temper you can be a good member of this community. But if you can't you'll end up in similar troubles quite often.

I already enjoy your story, and wait for the next installment. Will give feedback as time allows.

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

k.

I'll calm down.

But still well the CA thing can be debated somewhere else.

I do ask,But since I percieve the world in a very different way(I have a mental disability which is called autism and I get kinda angry)Its kinda hard for me to er...what was it?...erm....say if I wrote a story.I get critism,thats ok.But if its something else then its very difficult for me to do it.


Again you got stuck in your opinion and didn't wanted to be told it was not good and pushed forward for it, until it was you against everyone there.
haha!I like that.

The story's not finished,But I can assure I am writing and editing it .

[Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout]

Be calm, have fun take it easy. Don't worry about what other people say - if you like the game, that's enough.

K,will take your advice!

:).

[gollum]

:bow:

[Kagemusha]

Self Moderation is a blessing. Thank you, gentlemen for handling this affair so well.:bow:

[gollum]

:bow:

[Brandy Blue]

"For more, have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirishitan"

Thank you gollum. So many nice people here ready to be helpful.

[gollum]

You're welcome BB.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Whew...a little late into the conversation but I'll try to add a few constructive koku......


The Matchlock ashaguri are good ,but not that good

This is what gollum was referring to when he said your comments were better placed in the S2TW forum...in the original STW, there are no seperate ashi/samurai teppo. There are only two kinds of teppo, arquebus & musket, and both are ashigaru.

For STW, I always convert to Christianity no matter which time period I play. For certain clans during certain time periods, it's nearly a matter of life or death to have guns. I simply cannot imagine playing the Oda 1580 campaign (on Expert) without guns. I consider myself a pretty decent SP, and a veteran at playing the Oda clan...whom I've probably played more than all the others combined. I don't think I could survive the Oda 1580 campaign without guns. [For an idea at how insane that campaign can get, take a look at my campaign AAR-Nobunaga's Ambition: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?112231-Nobunaga-s-Ambition].

If you lose Mino to either Takeda or Imagawa, you might as well restart...your interior provinces are too wide open, and you have very few troops with which to defend. And it won't be long before Shimazu comes knocking at your back door.

That's just one example of the usefulness of teppo. I also tend to think that folks that say guns are useless, generally don't know how to use them properly...I should know...I was one of those who often critisized their use, until I learned how to effectively use them on both offense and defense. If you happen to browse through my Nobunaga AAR, note the number of kills generated by my muskets. That single effect allowed me to save enough koku, while beating off repeated attacks on two fronts, to create new armies for my counterattack. I don't think I could've gotten as much mileage out of SA's.

[gollum]

Just for the record, and not as a comment on Reluctant Samurai's strategy and campaign: teppos (guns) are too powerful in the MI expansion. They are so powerful in fact that they can stop a cav charge while they were not meant to do so. Their shot power iirc was increased from 4 to 16, which has actually little meaning as the parameter saturates at 8, according to tests done by Puzz3D. This was not the case in the "old" original STW (the one in the red box). They can be brought back to their original values however in MI as unit stats and missile weapon stats are moddable in txt files. If anyone is interested how to do so, take a look at this post:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?77560-The-old-unit-stats

The resulting gameplay is better because it requires more tactical combination of melee/missiles/cav units for good results in battle than having all too powerful guns imo.

[ReluctantSamurai]

teppos (guns) are too powerful in the MI expansion.

Indeed they are. I modded teppo at a midling range of 8, halving the original MI stat of 16.

[caravel]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?77560-The-old-unit-stats
Invaluable... I've always looked that old thread up whenever I've reinstalled STW - cannot play the game without the altered stats - far too easy.

:bow: