Israelis stealing organs? That's just a dirty anti-Semitic lie, right? Right?

[Lemur]

I'm trying to think of how this could be a bigger PR disaster for Israel, but I'm coming up short. Maybe if there was video evidence of Jews drinking children's blood, yeah, I guess that would be worse. But organ theft from Muslims (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/12/2009122161551898444.html)? That's pretty ********* bad.

Somebody remind me why Israel is such a great ally of the U.S.A. I'm definitely missing something.


Jehuda Hiss, the former head of Israel's forensic institute [...] said: "We started to harvest corneas ... Whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family." [...]

Donald Bostrom, the journalist who broke the story in Aftonbladet, told Al Jazeera: "UN staff came to me and said that you have to look into this very serious issue. Palestinian young people were disappearing in the areas and five days later they appear back in the villages with an autopsy done on them against the will of the families.

"We need to know who are the victims. Mothers need to know what happened to their sons."

Bostrom said that there is no proof that people were killed for their organs but that an investigation is needed to find out whether there was a policy in place or if the bodies used were random.

Bostrom added that Hiss is the "main key" to solving such unanswered questions, but that there would also be other people involved who could help uncover the truth.

Scheper-Hughes said that some of the dead Palestinians from whom organs were harvested were killed during military raids.

"Some of the bodies were definitely Palestinians who were killed in conflicts," she told Al Jazeera.

"Their organs were taken without consent of families and were used to serve the needs of the country in terms of hospitals as well as the army's needs."

She said that Hiss told her "that the people who did the harvesting were sent by the military. They were often medical students".

"He did it informally and without permission, and it was technically illegal," she said.

[Hosakawa Tito]

"He did it informally and without permission, and it was technically illegal," she said.

Just "technically illegal" ? How about criminally, morally, ethically illegal too ? :thumbsdown:
He should be formally indicted and tried for his crimes, technically speaking.:whip:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

A few things:

Firstly, the article doesn't mention that it was just from Muslims. In fact, it specifically mentions that Israelis were among the victims.

Secondly, the practice is disgraceful and was fortunately ended over a decade ago.

Thirdly, the recent allegations were what individuals were calling an anti-Semitic lie.

Doesn't change the fact that it was wrong, of course.

[Louis VI the Fat]

In August the Aftonbladet newspaper ran an article alleging that the Israeli army had stolen body organs from Palestinian men after killing them.


Israel denied the claims, calling them anti-Semitic, and the incident raised tensions when Sweden refused to apologise for the article, saying that press freedom prevented it from intervening.
This gives me reminiscences about the 'Muslim' / Danish Jyllands Posten cartoons controversy. All that's missing (barely) is the Israelis burning Swedish flags and calling for a boycott.

Bless the Scandinavian press btw.


I am also going to invoke Godwin: it is uncivilized to use the physical remains of people you killed for your own gain and medical experiments. Leave it to Mengele.

[seireikhaan]

Yikes. As pointed out by EMFM, there seems to not have been given specific preference in terms of who ended up becoming unwilling donors. Pretty sure that wouldn't make me feel much better if I was in the area....

Nor am I assured by the claim that they stopped it a "whole ten years" ago. In my eyes, ten years isn't that long at all. Imagine if there'd been such a scandal to occur in America- the democratic party wouldn't have recovered for ages.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I am also going to invoke Godwin: it is uncivilized to use the physical remains of people you killed for your own gain and medical experiments. Leave it to Mengele.

So Israel murdered their own citizens for their own gain and medical experiments, did they? Even that article only insinuates it, it doesn't actually say so outright.

[HoreTore]

and calling for a boycott.

No, that's reserved for when one of our great writers publish an emotional chronicle calling on everyone to stop an ongoing war, calm down and talk to each other....

[Crazed Rabbit]

So the government stole organs from the dead, both Israeli and Palestinian, in the 1990s, seemingly for military purposes?
Scum, but not necessarily anti-Muslim or Palestinian (if they were doing it to their own people), just anti-human decency. We need more information.

The more recent allegations seem to have a lot less weight behind them.

CR

[Kadagar_AV]

I posted something about this when it just came up...

A bit fun how the israeli and pro-israeli jumped me, now they kind of have to give in given the source is from within Israel this time.

and yeah, the excuse "yeah, we so stole stole organs from people, but we stoped it a whole of ten years ago" doesn't really fly with me.

I hope some israelis get sent to the Haag soon, it is long over due.

[Fragony]

A bit fun how the israeli and pro-israeli jumped me, now they kind of have to give in given the source is from within Israel this time.

Only speaks in their favour, this happens everywhere make no mistake, in China it's they are basicly shooting prisoners for their organs, happens a lot in the middle east and central aisa as well. It's amazing how far and ruthless corruption can get.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I posted something about this when it just came up...

A bit fun how the israeli and pro-israeli jumped me, now they kind of have to give in given the source is from within Israel this time.

Remember that you were also saying that they were only harvesting them from the poor, innocent Palestinian Muslims though. Which turned out not to be true.

[Kadagar_AV]

Remember that you were also saying that they were only harvesting them from the poor, innocent Palestinian Muslims though. Which turned out not to be true.

Uh... No.

I said they were stealing organs from Palestinians. I never said they ONLY stole it from Palestinians. The article I refered to only mentioned Palestinians in specific, sure, but that doesnt mean they didn't harvest elsewhere.

All in all, disgusting.

Again, Israel would better start sending some people to Haag if they want any claim to being a civilized country.

[Fragony]

Again, Israel would better start sending some people to Haag if they want any claim to being a civilized country.

Yes, but as criminals not as Israelis.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, but as criminals not as Israelis.

Doh?

[Fragony]

Doh?

Not so very Doh, Israel is nice nice excuse for a lot of people, it's antisemitism nobody cares about the crimes committed in the countries surrounding it. The egyptians actually use gas in these tunnels, but the UN doesn't care,.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Guardian apologizes for their title. (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/12/22/tom-gross-britain-revives-the-old-israel-organ-fable.aspx)

[Incongruous]

LOL.

Thank god Israel is a democracy, otherwise this would be REALLY bad.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I have to start with the fact that there is still no evidence that Israel killed any Palestinians for organs. Other websites reporting on this issue report that all of the victims were dead, and most of those who had organs harvested from them were IDF soldiers or Israeli civilians who had been killed, with only a few Palestinian corpses being harvested. I have done some research with the evidence that is available, and there isn't really a clear answer whether the Israeli government was behind this, or just a few doctors.

I would remind posters that details are sketchy so far.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What is so important about Israel not only using dead Palestinians to harvest organs?


So for the past six months, coinciding with Sweden holding the EU presidency, Sweden has been under fierce attack from Israel. The Israeli foreign minister calling it all an antisemitic blood libel, demanding in harsh language that the Swedish government condemned its own press.

I wish I was the foreign minister of Sweden or the EU now. I'd so be looking forward to the Israeli ambassador at my desk tomorrow morning at nine 'o clock. :whip:



Coincidentally, the revelations coincide with a debate raging in Israel about donor organs. Biblical law forbids needlessly mutilating a body, delaying its burial and deriving benefit from a body, such as selling it for medical research. Unless a life is at stake, which seems not to have been the case in most of the desecrations of the deceased.


Only speaks in their favour, this happens everywhere make no mistake, in China it's they are basicly shooting prisoners for their organs, happens a lot in the middle east and central aisa as well. True. And that's why countries like those are not considered a 'beacon of democracy in their region', nor a trusted ally with near unhindered access to military intelligence.


@EMFM: My sentence was a bit ambiguous. Let me rephrase it as: 'it is uncivilized to use, for your own gain and medical experiments, the physical remains of people you killed'.

The details do not seem to be sketchy. The head of the forensic intsitute in a lenghty interview confirms the story, and the Israeli army confirmed his story in turn.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I just want to see a news organization besides Al Jazeera cover this in print. How do you expect anyone who says things like this:


The scandal over organ theft began emerging, after the organs were harvested from the body of Bilal Ghanim, a Palestinian martyr.

to be neutral? I have presented a more accurate version of events than the sensationalism I saw in their article and in the OP, and now I am waiting for more details to emerge or to be reported on.

I would remind individuals again, as appears to be necessary, that the blood libel allegation, which was false and has zero evidence to support it, was that Israel was deliberately murdering Palestinians specifically to harvest their organs. Israel was correct to deny that it took place and to call for an apology.

The question is to what extent the state of Israel was involved. It seems that Hiss was fired from being the head of the forensic institute over irregularities with organ use, and the attorney general of Israel examined the possibility of laying charges against him in 2004.

[Kralizec]

I have to start with the fact that there is still no evidence that Israel killed any Palestinians for organs. Other websites reporting on this issue report that all of the victims were dead, and most of those who had organs harvested from them were IDF soldiers or Israeli civilians who had been killed, with only a few Palestinian corpses being harvested. I have done some research with the evidence that is available, and there isn't really a clear answer whether the Israeli government was behind this, or just a few doctors.

I would remind posters that details are sketchy so far.

I don't remember if people suggested that in backroom threads, but here (http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=8390&lg=en) is a translation of the article originally published in the Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet.
It does contain accusations that Palestinians were specifically killed for their organs, but in the article it's clear that they originate from Palestinians and not the author himself.
According to the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/12/20/world/AP-ML-Israel-Organ-Harvesting.html?_r=4) Hiss said that the practice ended in 2000, wich is less than "over a decade".

I'd like to hear or read the actual interview with this dr. Hiss. It's mind boggling that the guy was and is still allowed to act as the chief pathologist in the institute he used to run. That suggests that either the prosecution and the other staff didn't think it was a big deal, or that this wasn't an isolated case where a crazy doctor acts entirely on his own shaky ethics.