Manipular Tactics

[Scutarii]

Hi,

I've heard a fair bit about manipular formations but wondered how they worked on the battlefield.

How did the Principes engage the enemy while the Hastati moved away? They clearly didn't just push through one another's formations as this would just cause heavy disruption and be slow.

So what were the actual mechanics of the switch?

Did the Triarii do this too or did they only engage if everyone else was forced to withdraw?

[Maeran]

The way they did it historically has been the subject of much debate. Personally I favour the idea that the change took place during lulls in the fighting, which never happens in game, so you have to push your principes through the hastati line in the game. Here's one of the discussions on the subject.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=91488&highlight=quincunx

[pezhetairoi]

Wow, a thread started by me, no less. And here I was about to reply with almost exactly what I said in that original post more than 2 years ago.

I've since found an extremely detailed site (even if it does look a little dodgy and has advertisements popping up all the time) that deals with that, in addition to just about every other aspect of Roman military organisation, in exhausting and very impressive detail, complete with diagrams, and some very sensible analysis and references (in my opinion).

The table of contents can be found here http://www.garyb.0catch.com/site_map.html.

[Macilrille]

A lot of books has also been written on the subject of Roman military, tactics, etc. I recommend getting and reading them, it is generally much more enlightening to read an actual analysis by a professional...

That goes for all subjects, BTW, though it is easier to sit down and watch THC or ask online, real enlightenment by and large is to be found in :book:

Happy new year and enjoy your reading.

[L.C. SVLLA]

Hi,

I've heard a fair bit about manipular formations but wondered how they worked on the battlefield.

How did the Principes engage the enemy while the Hastati moved away? They clearly didn't just push through one another's formations as this would just cause heavy disruption and be slow.

So what were the actual mechanics of the switch?

Did the Triarii do this too or did they only engage if everyone else was forced to withdraw?

it's complicated, i dont even see how it works completely yet.

the 'squares' of the engaging line are divided in two, the back half forms up on the front half's side, and advances, attacks...

for the units behind them (pricipes), they wait until the hastati breaks off (Adrian goldsworthy in "Caesar" says that battles were intense brief clashes, then lines fall back to reform and attack again) and the principes form up in the gap hastati left when the hastati forms back up into squares again, until they take the whole line when they hastati withdraws completely.

i never saw anybody do this in real life reenactment, it's complicated, and if there's mistakes in the above sentences i really have 'more or less' understanding of how the Romans did this.

[Jebivjetar]

Here I've found one interesting example concerning this subject you're discussing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uocQ8t9K9FA

[Ludens]

Here I've found one interesting example concerning this subject you're discussing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uocQ8t9K9FA

As I've written before, I don't believe the makers of HBO had any inside knowledge on the mechanics of historical battles and just made this up. I don't believe it would work in the real world either. The manoeuvre is too rigid and too predictable for close combat. As soon as the whistle blows, the attackers know what movements the legionaries are going to make. In close combat, being predictable will get you killed.

[Jebivjetar]

As I've written before, I don't believe the makers of HBO had any inside knowledge on the mechanics of historical battles and just made this up. I don't believe it would work in the real world either. The manoeuvre is too rigid and too predictable for close combat. As soon as the whistle blows, the attackers know what movements the legionaries are going to make. In close combat, being predictable will get you killed.


Yeah. I don't know either how much on this subject do HBO people know about. This link I gave as an optional suggestion rather than final solution. I found it interesting though.

[Macilrille]

Here I have to agree with L C Sulla. That is the general understanding of how it was done, there are other interpretations, but this one seems to fit the evidence we have best.

However, I cannot put my finger on it, but there is something in that interpretation that strikes me as wrong, intuitively and probably from my experience as a re-enactor (Viking, somewhat different). But as I cannot say what it is, it may just be a minor point for in general the interpretation seems right.

Still :book::book::book: has been written upon it, for a general overview you could get Osprey's, they are easy and give an overview. From there you can move on to specialists.

Ludens is definately right in HBO's case, everything in that interpretation is an invitation to a cunning opponent with just a little knowledge on your doctrine to time his attack and rip your formation apart at a vulnerable point. I see two of them in that interpretation. The guy behind you holding on to you will inhibit your mobilty somewhat = death. The shuffling will leave two guys in one' place as they shuffle and thus almost immobile and unable to defend themselves properly, ie very dead.

[Taedius]

I've since found an extremely detailed site (even if it does look a little dodgy and has advertisements popping up all the time) that deals with that, in addition to just about every other aspect of Roman military organisation, in exhausting and very impressive detail, complete with diagrams, and some very sensible analysis and references (in my opinion).

The table of contents can be found here http://www.garyb.0catch.com/site_map.html.

I'm sure it's a fine site. Any idea how to get around that advertisement site that takes over every time I try to enter or click a link?

[Macilrille]

Cute spider, Hail Lolth.