Thorakitai for Makedonia?

[Moosemanmoo]

I was just wondering if they will be featured in EBII as I never understood why they were missing in EB1 :dizzy2:

Was their non-existence intentional or a mistake?

[bobbin]

I think it was intentional, something about how they never made use of the Thorakitai and instead developed more armoured phalangites.

[Genava]

I think it's because the thorakitai are quoted four times in ancient texts. In the Achaean league and in the Seleucid army.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Well in EB we have Epeirote, Seleukid, Hellene, Ptolemaic and Baktrian Thorakitai. There probably is a special reason why they did not develop their infantry like other pre-alexandreian Hellenes to the Thorakitai.

~Fluvius

[MeinPanzer]

Unlike in almost all the other Hellenistic kingdoms, we find next to no evidence for use of thureos-bearing troops of any kind beyond "ethnic" mercenaries like Thracians and Galatians in the Antigonid army. Our only evidence is really a handful of late Hellenistic (2nd-1st c. BC) bowls featuring Homeric reliefs which depict Greek and Trojan soldiers as a mixture of hoplites or peltastai and thureophoroi. These could be Macedonian troops, but this seems pretty unlikely, and they very well could be based on the appearance of other troops, like mercenaries or allies. If they are Macedonians, then they may represent a response to Roman domination which saw the Macedonians training as thureophoroi instead of phalangites due to limited military capability and lack of resources.

[tarem]

but if maks did not had any native thureos equpied infantry would that not exclude the thureoporoi as well? historically i think most of the phalangites were trained to fight both ways and were equped as the need required (both in phalanx and close quarter), but there is no way to represent in TW. there would be at least 3 weapon types and 2 shield types for 1 type of unit, plus they could not be interchangable after deployment (no way to caary sarissa + aspis + javelines at the same time)....

[mountaingoat]

would be nice if the "dismount before battle" option was still there .. maybe it could be used to change from pike to skirmisher equipment .. etc

[MeinPanzer]

but if maks did not had any native thureos equpied infantry would that not exclude the thureoporoi as well?

Pretty much, but at the least there is some evidence for thureophoroi being present in the Antigonid army, whereas there is none whatsoever for thorakitai.


historically i think most of the phalangites were trained to fight both ways and were equped as the need required (both in phalanx and close quarter), but there is no way to represent in TW. there would be at least 3 weapon types and 2 shield types for 1 type of unit, plus they could not be interchangable after deployment (no way to caary sarissa + aspis + javelines at the same time)....

This may have been so for some troops of the other Hellenistic kingdoms for which there is plentiful evidence of the use of thureos-bearing troops and phalangites, but there is absolutely no evidence for this in the case of Antigonid Macedonia. There is certainly evidence for phalangites carrying javelins and fighting with them when need be as de facto peltasts from the time of Alexander, but there is no evidence that I know of that phalangites would have carried thureoi on campaign in the Hellenistic period.

Many young men from Greece would have trained during their ephebeia with the thureos, but few would have had actual experience with operating in a phalanx. The only way I would imagine that this was regularly possible is if a state recruited Greek mercenaries from the regions of Greece where both the Macedonian phalanx and the thureos were employed, such as Boeotia. I have a feeling that if phalangites needed to fight in close combat during a siege or in some other kind of special operation, they would simply swap out their sarissae for javelins and go into combat as peltastai, rather than lugging along an extra shield just to be able to use it in the odd time they were required to do so.

[moonburn]

the lack of thorokitai are macedonias biggest weakness since using phalanxs in forest or in sieges sucks so much

[Cute Wolf]

the lack of thorokitai are macedonias biggest weakness since using phalanxs in forest or in sieges sucks so much

Use Agrianikoi pelekuphproi for that job, they are even better than thorakitai.

[HunGeneral]

Based on my experince I think it is possible for Makedonia to obtain local troops who can more or less fill the role of thorakitai although this is not true for all areas...

[ziegenpeter]

would be nice if the "dismount before battle" option was still there .. maybe it could be used to change from pike to skirmisher equipment .. etc

when has this ever been in?

[kuro570]

I think he was referring to E:TW where dragoons and such could dismount their horses and fight on foot.

[mountaingoat]

when has this ever been in?

oh i duno .... game called MTW

[ziegenpeter]

oh i duno .... game called MTW
well I was very young when MTW came out and I mostly played Viking Invasion, so I don't remember that feature. Funny they didn't use it for MTW2...

[mountaingoat]

well I was very young when MTW came out and I mostly played Viking Invasion, so I don't remember that feature. Funny they didn't use it for MTW2...

it is in VI too ( i meant to cover MTW&MTW VI) :yes:


yeah it does suck that they did not keep it in .... i will not comment any further on it :sweatdrop:

[ziegenpeter]

Oh man I really don't remember that. As a Viking Invader, you usually don't use that much cav. But you are sure that its not that "feature" they have in MTW2, those individual "dismounted" units?

[HunGeneral]

Oh man I really don't remember that. As a Viking Invader, you usually don't use that much cav. But you are sure that its not that "feature" they have in MTW2, those individual "dismounted" units?

I quess not - i haven't played MedI alot, but I've read several threads on those forums which describe which cavalry units truns into what if you order it to dismount (could only be done during unit placement before battle, but NOT during battle.)

[ziegenpeter]

What a great feature for sieges!

[Cute Wolf]

I quess not - i haven't played MedI alot, but I've read several threads on those forums which describe which cavalry units truns into what if you order it to dismount (could only be done during unit placement before battle, but NOT during battle.)

In empire, there is the Dragoon (but they are still poor both as cav and as inf), maybe they should have 2 hp when dismounted or such, or has significantly higher stat

[HunGeneral]

In empire, there is the Dragoon (but they are still poor both as cav and as inf), maybe they should have 2 hp when dismounted or such, or has significantly higher stat

Ah so they have implemented it in there latest realease again (more or less)...

[ziegenpeter]

With the difference that they can even dismount during battle. I wouldn't need that feature, since this would be to hectic for me. But before battles in rough terrain or sieges... What a dream

[antisocialmunky]

To be fair, they only remount if they really feel like it. -_-'

[paullus]

I think Makedonia will have access to thorakitai in EB II, but as with the thureophoroi, they'll be treated as allied/mercenary contingents from other parts of Greece. As others have pointed out, there are also plenty of comparable troops available in neighboring lands.

[ziegenpeter]

BTW: Why do the thorakitai and thureophoroi have the same attack and lethality for javelins, when its statet in the description of the thorakitai, that they use heavier javs?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well lethality is the same for all missiles so it can only come down to attack value. And I've always wondered the same thing actually.

I was under the assumption that Theurophoroi used a smaller javelin a la Peltasti from the description. They are also supposed to carry more than Thorakitai yet both carry the same amount.

[Watchman]

Something of a rule of thumb tends to be that "precursor" javelins amount to about 2-3 a nose, since obviously the soldiers are expected to toss them at the enemy before closing into hand-to-hand combat rather than having to deal with the minor inconvenience of a clutch of still-unused javelins in the shield hand during close combat.

As for why the Thureophoroi and the Thorakitai are armed with the exact same javelins despite explicit description to the contrary, um. Bit of an extended lapse in the statting process there, some mea culpa too. :sweatdrop:

[tarem]

This may have been so for some troops of the other Hellenistic kingdoms for which there is plentiful evidence of the use of thureos-bearing troops and phalangites, but there is absolutely no evidence for this in the case of Antigonid Macedonia. There is certainly evidence for phalangites carrying javelins and fighting with them when need be as de facto peltasts from the time of Alexander, but there is no evidence that I know of that phalangites would have carried thureoi on campaign in the Hellenistic period.

Many young men from Greece would have trained during their ephebeia with the thureos, but few would have had actual experience with operating in a phalanx. The only way I would imagine that this was regularly possible is if a state recruited Greek mercenaries from the regions of Greece where both the Macedonian phalanx and the thureos were employed, such as Boeotia. I have a feeling that if phalangites needed to fight in close combat during a siege or in some other kind of special operation, they would simply swap out their sarissae for javelins and go into combat as peltastai, rather than lugging along an extra shield just to be able to use it in the odd time they were required to do so.

i did not mean threos + aspis combination for the mak phalangites, but more of a aspis (as in hoplon) + macedonian shield and the afore mentioned weapon sets (phalanx-close quarters-javelines). although i think then when in peltast mode, they actually did use the smaller macedonian shields and not the heavy aspis. but were they trained to fight in a shield wall phalanx as well?