View Full Version : There is something rotten in Australia
SO someone had the bright idea to pour gasoline over a student from India and light him up, the guy lived, if that is what you call it. That is more than a little bit disgusting such cruelty baffles me. India has given a negative advice for travelers to go to Ozzyland, what the hell is going on over there?
rory_20_uk
01-09-2010, 15:36
Australians aren't keen on people being there in significant numbers who aren't white.
The Indian contingent is increasing in size and this is upsetting some "people".
~:smoking:
Banquo's Ghost
01-09-2010, 15:45
SO someone had the bright idea to pour gasoline over a student from India and light him up, the guy lived, if that is what you call it. That is more than a little bit disgusting such cruelty baffles me. India has given a negative advice for travelers to go to Ozzyland, what the hell is going on over there?
Irrational hatred of immigrants is not confined to the Netherlands or Muslims.
Irrational hatred of immigrants is not confined to the Netherlands or Muslims.
Is there something you want to say to me? How long do I have to deal with that crap, it is perfectly possible to distinguish real and perceived problems. Or am I only just as good as people who pour gasoline over a person and put him on fire because he's from India.
rory_20_uk
01-09-2010, 16:09
I don't think a slight was intended. ~:grouphug:
~:smoking:
Kadagar_AV
01-09-2010, 18:26
Irrational hatred of immigrants is not confined to the Netherlands or Muslims.
So... Irrational slander is ok when you are a mod?
I dont think many old-timers doubt what (or who) you refer to... And that is just, well, wrong.
Get a grip, and dont post while drunk.
You now have an infraction, from me :whip:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
01-09-2010, 18:37
I sincerely hope that Banquo did not mean that in the way it sounded. :bow:
Australians aren't keen on people being there in significant numbers who aren't white.
The Indian contingent is increasing in size and this is upsetting some "people".
~:smoking:
Typical British understatement. :laugh4:
Yes, there is a problem with rascist :daisy:'s attacking Indians lately, but it's kind of interesting that you picked an attack that wasn't racially motivated to highlight the issue. This was just some random sickos who decided it might be fun to burn someones car whilst they were still sitting in it.
EDIT
Oh, and he wasn't a student either.
Banquo only stated something about irrational xenophobia. To what extent that xenophobia is expressed differs, in my opinion. I think we are all a bit xenophobic by nature.
CountArach
01-09-2010, 21:07
Racism is a huge problem here. It doesn't surprise me that this happened.
Meneldil
01-09-2010, 22:05
On another new, there's something rotten in Italy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8447990.stm) too.
According to the latest news, the local population went onto a immigrant hunt after the riot, injured ~40 of them, sometimes with firearms, took the city hall and patrol the streets.
As much as I dislike what's happening, I'm not surprised. Maybe leftist intellectuals will someday understand that there's indeed a problem with immigration.
Megas Methuselah
01-09-2010, 23:19
Racism is a huge problem here. It doesn't surprise me that this happened.
Dang racist whites. :laugh4:
HoreTore
01-09-2010, 23:45
Why are they upset at Indians coming to Australia?
I mean... If they all go to Australia, then there wouldn't be any more outsourcing to India! :smash:
@Meneldil: that Italy is going back to the Mussonlini days has been clear for quite a few years now... They even have their brownshirts patrolling Rome; if that isn't a disgusting sight I don't know what is.
tibilicus
01-10-2010, 02:00
I always find it odd how Australia has a significant racist sentiment yet visiting Sydney recently I was quite overwhelmed (in a good way) by the sheer number of Asian people. It was nice.
You should all lighten up about immigration to, I mean your sat on this fairly large continent and there's only 20 million of you. Quit hogging all the land (yes, aware that a significant portion of your country is just sand, but my point stills stands).
pevergreen
01-10-2010, 02:12
A large percentage of the population would probably welcome the return of the White Australia Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia).
A lot of hate that is directed towards asians in general is simply the "engrish". In the case of Indians, the national hate of Indian call centres is a major factor.
Particular areas are much worse. Can't say for anywhere but Brisbane. The riots a few years back down in sydney...
I wouldnt make an issue of the guy being indian. People of that age (anywhere from 12-mid twenties these days) go out to get drunk and start fight. Used to be about picking up the gals, but not anymore.
Beefy187
01-10-2010, 02:19
During my stay in Australia, I did get couple of racist comments, but over all, there wasn't that many unpleasant moments. In general, people there is nothing more then a nice lot.
When I start getting news about Indian bashing, I could'nt believe what I saw.
CountArach
01-10-2010, 04:19
I always find it odd how Australia has a significant racist sentiment yet visiting Sydney recently I was quite overwhelmed (in a good way) by the sheer number of Asian people. It was nice.
But most racial groups here live in enclaves, so people can avoid multiculturalism if they want to... and so many do.
aimlesswanderer
01-10-2010, 04:34
There are small pockets of idiots here. Walking around alone at night in some areas, walking through parks at night, all will increase your chances of something bad happening. There is probably a racist element to some of the attacks on Indians, but the Indian media have gone berserk, and are just as bad as the thugs and idiots here.
Tibilicus, the city is much more multicultural (especially Asian) than some suburbs, and there are also lots of tourist wandering around there too.
I don't know about Melbourne, where most of this stuff is happening, but it has been the crime centre of Australia for quite a while.
I can only speak for Sydney, and as CA said, while we have a broad amount of ethnicities within the city they tend to be in their own areas. For example, where I live there is a more general mix, due to it being a popular and youthful area. But, still it is predominately white. But, other areas like Chatswood (heavily Asian), the inner west (heavily Middle Eastern), etc, are very segmented.
My advice to Indians. Don't go to Melbourne, come to Sydney instead.
Gregoshi
01-10-2010, 07:20
My advice to Indians. Don't go to Melbourne, come to Sydney instead.
I guess I'm glad my family is white. My wife and daughter just returned to Melbourne today for a 3-4 month stay. Melbourne struck us as a safe and friendly city when we were there back in June-July. Spent 4 weeks walking the streets nearly every day and can't say any of us witnessed a racial incident during that time. Maybe we just didn't get to the right areas of the city though.
Megas Methuselah
01-10-2010, 07:59
I guess I'm glad my family is white. My wife and daughter just returned to Melbourne today for a 3-4 month stay. Melbourne struck us as a safe and friendly city when we were there back in June-July. Spent 4 weeks walking the streets nearly every day and can't say any of us witnessed a racial incident during that time. Maybe we just didn't get to the right areas of the city though.
Come over to mah 'hood and I'll show you how we deal with you people. :laugh4:
Gregoshi
01-10-2010, 08:12
Come over to mah 'hood and I'll show you how we deal with you people. :laugh4:
"You people"? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAlVKgl_zCQ) ~;p
I sincerely hope that Banquo did not mean that in the way it sounded. :bow:
So do I, I thought being courteous in disagreement was our thing BG, if a moderator makes a comment like that new members get confused.
Furunculus
01-10-2010, 12:55
It was out of character for the Backroom, and quite a jolt to read it.
Believe me I make no accusation out of ill feeling, being permanently and visibly solomon-like in a place like the backroom is an impossible task, and neatly describes why i would not want to be a backroom moderator; because i have far too much fun with visceral and violent debate. Banquo and the others have always done an excellent job, and have my absolute confidence.
But still, the comment struck me as off-kilter as soon as i read it too.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In other news, the sad death of a true Brit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6958760/Tributes-paid-to-have-a-go-hero-killed-by-muggers.html
Good so it isn't just me. I am growing sick of these insinuations I made a mistake years ago and it was nothing more then a flirt. Give it a rest already, or less diplomatically, could you please :daisy:
Captain Blackadder
01-10-2010, 13:49
Ok time to bring some facts into this case. I am from Melbourne the place where these attacks infact I am from the suburb where the lastest attack occured so I think I am fairly well placed to speak about these attacks.
Firstly race is not the issue here and it has being overblown by certain elements in the press. Yes Melbourne does have a violent crime problem but no more so then any other city and yes sometimes victims of these attacks are indian but there are plenty of examples of whites being attacked in the same manner. For example on the same weekend as the first indian attack there were two other stabbings both on whites. Australia has a far lower crime rate then India and anyway there is no evidence that any of these attacks were motivated by race.
Banquo's Ghost
01-10-2010, 13:49
On reflection, it was a badly worded comment and I apologise unreservedly.
I meant no offense.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-10-2010, 14:03
Come over to mah 'hood and I'll show you how we deal with you people. :laugh4:
Dang racist whites. :laugh4:
I really hope you're caracaturing something, because otherwise this isn't funny.
OT: Australia is a wierd one, whether it has something to do with the "convict colony" thing as a common history, or what, I don't know. Certainly there does seem to be a strong racist current in Australian culture.
CountArach
01-10-2010, 14:24
OT: Australia is a wierd one, whether it has something to do with the "convict colony" thing as a common history, or what, I don't know. Certainly there does seem to be a strong racist current in Australian culture.
I'd say it has more to do with the fact that all major parties in Australian politics up until the 1970s supported the White Australia Policy. In varying shades since then no Australian Party has fully supported broad immigration policies, and have instead decided to marginalise groups for electoral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_affair) gain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_overboard) by creating a sense of Australia being under siege from immigrants, which is a claim that has no basis in reality. Thus those in power are creating a societal 'other' that they can easily blame for problems. Further, segments (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/nixon_proves_it_she_did_mislead/desc/P20/) of the media push this anti-immigration line, despite the fact that the statistics (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2008/11/22/of-race-and-crime-and-andrew-bolt/) tell a different tale.
So yeah, I blame those with power and those with the power to stop those in power. A mythologised history, as you said, does undoubtedly play into the public consciousness, but that has been shaped very carefully by governments over various periods. Every government has had its own vision of our shared history and will glorify certain time-periods and aspects.
On reflection, it was a badly worded comment and I apologise unreservedly.
I meant no offense.
no probs
aimlesswanderer
01-11-2010, 02:00
I'd say it has more to do with the fact that all major parties in Australian politics up until the 1970s supported the White Australia Policy. In varying shades since then no Australian Party has fully supported broad immigration policies, and have instead decided to marginalise groups for electoral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_affair) gain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_overboard) by creating a sense of Australia being under siege from immigrants, which is a claim that has no basis in reality. Thus those in power are creating a societal 'other' that they can easily blame for problems. Further, segments (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/nixon_proves_it_she_did_mislead/desc/P20/) of the media push this anti-immigration line, despite the fact that the statistics (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2008/11/22/of-race-and-crime-and-andrew-bolt/) tell a different tale.
So yeah, I blame those with power and those with the power to stop those in power. A mythologised history, as you said, does undoubtedly play into the public consciousness, but that has been shaped very carefully by governments over various periods. Every government has had its own vision of our shared history and will glorify certain time-periods and aspects.
I'd agree that the good ol White Australia Policy still lingers in the hearts and minds of some (though my grandparents got through somehow!), and that feelings towards migrants have been manipulated and inflamed by various governments for their own end. I'd say that the Howard government (the previous, conservative govt) was (despite protestations to the contrary by them and fellow conservatives) quite egregious in this area, thanks to the above mentioned Tampa and Children Deliberately Thrown Overboard (but not actually as it turns out, but not the politicians fault of course, and look, they just happened to be Muslim! Whaddaya know, just before an election and soon after the Sept 11 attacks).
Also, the Pauline Hanson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson) circus, when the PM declined to call her a stupid bigot, and then proceeded to modify and steal her policies, and some more moderate rhetoric. Whatever his faults, at least Peter Costello was loud in his denunciations of her.
And there was the whole #*@$ up of the Mohamed Haneef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Haneef) saga, and the stupid government response, based on fear, paranoia, and a need to appear "tough" on terrorism, when the doctor was completely innocent, but was deported anyway. Also just months out from an election.
And then there was the OMG, Sudanese migrants are criminals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Andrews_(Australian_politician)#2007_Immigration_Controversy) saga, despite good ol Kevin Andrews (immigration minister to boot) not having any of that pesky evidence and statistics stuff to back it up. Whaddaya know, and election was in the offing then too - is there a pattern here?
However, despite the above incidents, Australia is generally a very welcoming country for migrants. After all, about 25% of the population was born overseas, and at least 7% of the population is 'Asian' (inc me). Thankfully, I'd say the change of government has generally improved the situation, with less fear mongering and inflammatory rhetoric. As with any country there are dodgy areas and people, but avoid those few and you should be fine.
pevergreen
01-11-2010, 02:11
Its a bad issue.
Would I welcome a return to the White Australia Policy, or something like it?
Yes.
Do I know why? No.
I have no problem with people of other ethnicities. Beefy is one of my best friends.
Drive through the main street of Moorooka (suburb in which i work, >90% population african immigration) and you can see why many people are not fans of immigrants. But then again, the tales that go around about people in ipswich (40-50km outside of CBD) and you wonder why we keep those australians.
CountArach
01-11-2010, 03:10
However, despite the above incidents, Australia is generally a very welcoming country for migrants. After all, about 25% of the population was born overseas, and at least 7% of the population is 'Asian' (inc me). Thankfully, I'd say the change of government has generally improved the situation, with less fear mongering and inflammatory rhetoric. As with any country there are dodgy areas and people, but avoid those few and you should be fine.
Yeah, but we still have detention centres, even if they aren't as bad as Howard's. The continuation of all the racist aspects of the Northern Territory Intervention with the patronising rhetoric that goes along with that doesn't help either.
The effect Pauline Hanson (for non-Australians, think of something like the British National Party, but rolled into one woman...) was something that I had forgotten to mention as well. The fact that openly racist commentary has been allowed into our national discourse at some point or another means that people are more likely to get away with racism, simply because our politicians can as well.
pevergreen
01-11-2010, 05:48
Most people knew she was a joke though.
The Chaser on Pauline. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E2ihEO8SO8)
Megas Methuselah
01-11-2010, 05:53
Its a bad issue.
Would I welcome a return to the White Australia Policy, or something like it?
Yes.
Do I know why? No.
I have no problem with people of other ethnicities. Beefy is one of my best friends.
Drive through the main street of Moorooka (suburb in which i work, >90% population african immigration) and you can see why many people are not fans of immigrants. But then again, the tales that go around about people in ipswich (40-50km outside of CBD) and you wonder why we keep those australians.
You're a descendant of European criminals; if you don't like immigration, then go back to Europe, you hypocrite.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
01-11-2010, 06:01
You're a descendant of European criminals; if you don't like immigration, then go back to Europe, you hypocrite.
You know, I've been thinking, we should pack the entire human population into Tanzania. Or maybe Iraq.
Megas Methuselah
01-11-2010, 06:07
You know, I've been thinking, we should pack the entire human population into Tanzania. Or maybe Iraq.
And then plant this one big special tree, right?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
01-11-2010, 06:09
And then plant this one big special tree, right?
I'm sure you saw my point.
Sasaki Kojiro
01-11-2010, 06:19
I'm sure you saw my point.
He's probably on his way back to siberia.
Apparently, everyone on the planet standing side by side can fit into Texas.
I think Strike would be big on that idea.
Admittedly, Banquo's comment made me laugh. :blush: Though, I am not sure if was the same way everyone else saw it though.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
01-11-2010, 06:25
Apparently, everyone on the planet standing side by side can fit into Texas.
Any figures on what the population density would be in that case?
Furunculus
01-11-2010, 09:34
You're a descendant of European criminals; if you don't like immigration, then go back to Europe, you hypocrite.
how's that chip coming along, eh?
-------------------------------------------
back on topic:
to me; pevergreens comment is merely evidence of my much derided concept of a shared social and cultural history.
the greater the commonality, the less friction points exist within a group, and the easier it is to rub along together.
i'm putting words in pevergreens mouth for which i apologise; but i imagine he goes through those badly integrated disctricts and recognises the tension that has arisen from those points of friction.
.......... but of course it couldn't be that, because as everyone on this forum knows we are all exactly the same, with exactly the same expectations and desires about what society should be, with identical aims and objectives as to how we wish to participate in that society..........
Beefy187
01-11-2010, 12:10
btw pever, if I was to visit Australia right now, would I make it out of there alive?
How badly do they hate the Japanese for whaling?
CountArach
01-11-2010, 13:25
How badly do they hate the Japanese for whaling?
We know the difference between Japanese whalers and every-day Japanese citizens.
pevergreen
01-11-2010, 13:41
Most people wouldn't care Beefy. Plus, I'd defend you. We leave japanese tourists alone, so you'd just have to go around with a camera, like we did that day.
i'm putting words in pevergreens mouth for which i apologise; but i imagine he goes through those badly integrated disctricts and recognises the tension that has arisen from those points of friction.
Not entirely sure what you mean.
@Megas: Yeah, I don't really have an excuse. I can trace back to the first fleet on my dads side and before that, to 1770's france.
Furunculus
01-11-2010, 13:42
We know the difference between Japanese whalers and every-day Japanese citizens.
on the other hand, every party in japans parliament supports whaling............ and they are in theory a representative democracy............
CountArach
01-11-2010, 13:49
on the other hand, every party in japans parliament supports whaling............ and they are in theory a representative democracy............
Emphasis mine.
Furunculus
01-11-2010, 14:02
Emphasis mine.
maybe we ought to ask beefy if he's living in a dictatorship? perhaps there's something rotten in japan.............?
Beefy187
01-11-2010, 14:06
on the other hand, every party in japans parliament supports whaling............ and they are in theory a representative democracy............
I guess your right. :shame:
Our biggest two party who is battling for their ruling seat is practically completely the same.
@pever, CA
Thats good to hear. Reading some of the comments on Australian news got me worried. :sweatdrop:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-11-2010, 14:15
Its a bad issue.
Would I welcome a return to the White Australia Policy, or something like it?
Yes.
Do I know why? No.
I have no problem with people of other ethnicities. Beefy is one of my best friends.
Drive through the main street of Moorooka (suburb in which i work, >90% population african immigration) and you can see why many people are not fans of immigrants. But then again, the tales that go around about people in ipswich (40-50km outside of CBD) and you wonder why we keep those australians.
We are all most comfortable with people like us, white Australians are more like each other than they are like African immigrants. Also, we want our children to look like us, and in Europe skin colour has become a major marker of identity, it used to be hair colour before that.
Don't worry about it too much, any one who claims not to be racist is lying. Just be aware it's there, in your subconcious.
You're a descendant of European criminals; if you don't like immigration, then go back to Europe, you hypocrite.
You're the desendent of genocidal Asians who so obliterated the previous inhabitants of the continent that all that remains now are their stone tools, but who's counting?
You're the desendent of genocidal Asians who so obliterated the previous inhabitants of the continent that all that remains now are their stone tools, but who's counting?
Evolution is a racist! Evolution should be banned!
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-11-2010, 15:47
Evolution is a racist! Evolution should be banned!
Nope, sorry. http://www.primtech.net/
Bruce (I know him personally) has demonstrated that the first human inhabitants of America were probably from Southern France (related to modern Basques). This is because the earliest stone technology found in America is European, not Asian.
Nope, sorry. http://www.primtech.net/
Bruce (I know him personally) has demonstrated that the first human inhabitants of America were probably from Southern France (related to modern Basques). This is because the earliest stone technology found in America is European, not Asian.
Ah. I thought you were talking about Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. Regardless, interesting nonetheless.
btw pever, if I was to visit Australia right now, would I make it out of there alive?
How badly do they hate the Japanese for whaling?
Wait, you're Japanese?
And whale is tasty :yes:
Banquo's Ghost
01-11-2010, 17:02
Bruce (I know him personally) has demonstrated that the first human inhabitants of America were probably from Southern France (related to modern Basques).
Typical. It's always the Frenchies' fault. :wink:
Mind you, if I was going to wiped out, there are worse ways to go than being sent to oblivion by French girls in modern basques. (I think I read that right...)
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-11-2010, 17:11
Ah. I thought you were talking about Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. Regardless, interesting nonetheless.
I don't think the Neanderthals ever got to the America's.
Sadly Bruce was, virtually, hounded out of America for his discoveries; as he basically divested the Native Americans of the "Aboriginal" status.
Nope, sorry. http://www.primtech.net/
Bruce (I know him personally) has demonstrated that the first human inhabitants of America were probably from Southern France (related to modern Basques). This is because the earliest stone technology found in America is European, not Asian.
I seen that as well on the History channel ages ago.
There was a Tribe in Southern France with an unique method of creating spearheads. Around 300-400 later, the same design appeared in America. Due to the climate at the time and how you can cross the altantic, they believed they followed game across the frozen sheets of the North Atlantic and settled in America.
But there is also the fact the Mongolians also went to America, crossing at Russia-Alaska, so hence why some native American population shares genes from Asian populations.
Louis VI the Fat
01-11-2010, 22:16
Is there something you want to say to me? Come on, Fragony. Don't be so think-skinned. Banquo made some light-hearted banter, in reference to your many posts about Muslims.
We can't have a fun, lively debate if we are not allowed to sneak in some mischievous fun.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-11-2010, 22:47
I seen that as well on the History channel ages ago.
There was a Tribe in Southern France with an unique method of creating spearheads. Around 300-400 later, the same design appeared in America. Due to the climate at the time and how you can cross the altantic, they believed they followed game across the frozen sheets of the North Atlantic and settled in America.
But there is also the fact the Mongolians also went to America, crossing at Russia-Alaska, so hence why some native American population shares genes from Asian populations.
I suspect they glossed over the fact that the European Tech seems to suddenly dissapear, shortly after the arrival of the Asian version. The implication is (at least) cultural genocide, as the debate is finally hotting up now this may become a political topic in the next ten years, or so.
Seamus Fermanagh
01-11-2010, 23:34
I don't think the Neanderthals ever got to the America's.
But we're trying to breed back to that level. Soon Belgians won't be able to get in the top five in the Darwins as we'll have them locked up.
:beam:
Louis VI the Fat
01-12-2010, 01:20
All the native Americans who currently inhabit northern Canada and Greenland, the Thule people, arrived from Alaska only in the 13th to 15th century. They genocided the Dorset people - who had been living in Canada forever since the 9th century, when the Dorset themselves arrived from Asia and genocided the peoples of Northern Canada.
This same Thule people is probably responsible for the genocide of Greenland's unique Vikingo-American culture.
That's two genocides in an area triple that of Québec, started only three centuries before the French settled Canada. The last remnants of the Dorset people, the original inhabitants of the continent Megas' ancestors (?) stole from them, died out only the century before the French arrived.
If only the French had arrived two, maybe three generations earlier, then we might have saved Northern Canada's real native peoples from these foreign genocidal maniacs...:smash:
Centurion1
01-12-2010, 01:37
I always find it odd how Australia has a significant racist sentiment yet visiting Sydney recently I was quite overwhelmed (in a good way) by the sheer number of Asian people. It was nice.
nobody hates Asians. think of all the stereotypes about Asians. "Oh they are too smart." wow don't insult me too much. other races don't even have to worry about their women leaving them to Asians because yah know...... physical deficiencies.
:clown:
So Australia has a significant anti immigration movement eh? though that story doesn't necessarily mean anything just sounded like some young jackasses.
Just about every Australian is racist to some extent, most people think all the racist steroetypes of immigrants, and sometimes the thoughts are even voiced, but the percentage of the population that actually wants to kick them out is rather small(it's still a lot of people of course, just a small percentage). For the most part, despite our racist thoughts, we are quite accepting of them. Like someone said before 25% of the population was born overseas, and almost 50% have at least one parent who was born overseas.
Lancashire (as Subotan will most likely comment on) is mostly an low level of melanin area of Britain. Only people of different melanin levels are pretty much working in the NHS or Foriegn Exchange student at University.
So all my interactions with people of other melanin levels have always been positive experience.
It is really strange, because all these comments racists/etc make, just seem really stupid. As my interactions have seem positive and all the comments racists make about them, I see from the locally born, low melalin level populace.
Though, I have to admit, going to Luton and ending up in a service station where I was the only low-level melalin person was a really weird experience.
pevergreen
01-12-2010, 03:15
Just about every Australian is racist to some extent, most people think all the racist steroetypes of immigrants, and sometimes the thoughts are even voiced, but the percentage of the population that actually wants to kick them out is rather small(it's still a lot of people of course, just a small percentage). For the most part, despite our racist thoughts, we are quite accepting of them.
Well said.
Unlike Howard: "We will decide who comes into this country and the conditions on which they come."
Gregoshi
01-12-2010, 06:35
Unlike Howard: "We will decide who comes into this country and the conditions on which they come."
:laugh4: That quote/paraphrase is worthy of a Statue of Liberty spoof.
The exact words were: “We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.”
Furunculus
01-12-2010, 10:18
The exact words were: “We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.”
sounds very reasonable, who's complaining?
Meneldil
01-12-2010, 11:02
I really hope you're caracaturing something, because otherwise this isn't funny.
Some people just have to blame others to explain their own shortcomings.
pevergreen
01-12-2010, 12:00
The exact words were: “We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.”
I stand corrected. :bow:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-12-2010, 12:07
Just about every Australian is racist to some extent, most people think all the racist steroetypes of immigrants, and sometimes the thoughts are even voiced, but the percentage of the population that actually wants to kick them out is rather small(it's still a lot of people of course, just a small percentage). For the most part, despite our racist thoughts, we are quite accepting of them. Like someone said before 25% of the population was born overseas, and almost 50% have at least one parent who was born overseas.
I doubt it's just Australians, though the Colonies were always more insular and less accepting than Britain. As I said before, everyone is prejudiced.
The exact words were: “We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.”
Question: Why should anyone be allowed to come to your country? A nation should be a polity, a socila arrangement between it's citizens. People coming to your country are applying to join your polity.
Lancashire (as Subotan will most likely comment on) is mostly an low level of melanin area of Britain. Only people of different melanin levels are pretty much working in the NHS or Foriegn Exchange student at University.
So all my interactions with people of other melanin levels have always been positive experience.
It is really strange, because all these comments racists/etc make, just seem really stupid. As my interactions have seem positive and all the comments racists make about them, I see from the locally born, low melalin level populace.
Though, I have to admit, going to Luton and ending up in a service station where I was the only low-level melalin person was a really weird experience.
Devon is the same, darker skinned people make me uncomfortable, on a gut level, and I think it's just because I didn't meet any when I was a child (at all).
I think he was more specifically talking about asylum seekers. Basically he was telling them to go back to they country they came from and die or stay here and sit in a detention centre. This is an issue that I have a lot of trouble with personally, part of me says that I don't want all these stupid dirty boat people coming here and the other part says that they are people too and what right do we have to either a)lock them up for committing no crime or b)send them back to their country where chances are they will die?
Question: Why should anyone be allowed to come to your country? A nation should be a polity, a socila arrangement between it's citizens. People coming to your country are applying to join your polity.
I have no problem whatsoever with people who immigrate here legally. If a person wants to move here and get a job or study and raise a family or whatever they wish to do then I don't see why we should turn them away. They don't have to give up their traditions and assimilate(that's a bit of a dirty word), so long as they follow our laws then there isn't any reason to refuse them.
CountArach
01-12-2010, 14:39
sounds very reasonable, who's complaining?
The people who wanted us to actually treat refugees humanely.
But wouldn't the whole idea of refugees help prevent the world wide revolution?
As if people had to stay, they would have to fight for what is right, thus bring about the change to bring justice back, opposed to running away from their problems.
Lancashire (as Subotan will most likely comment on) is mostly an low level of melanin area of Britain. Only people of different melanin levels are pretty much working in the NHS or Foriegn Exchange student at University.
In the part of Lancashire where I'm from, this is pretty accurate.Likewise my college is whiter than a ski resort for polar bears, as AFAIK there are a couple of black students, one or two muslims and maybe ten South Asians out of 1,500 students. Ofc, parts of Lancashire like Burnley have a very mixed population, and unfortunately, they tend to be the poorer parts of Lancashire, although I don't know if that's the cause or the effect.
Devon is the same, darker skinned people make me uncomfortable, on a gut level, and I think it's just because I didn't meet any when I was a child (at all).
To be honest, I'm the same. Despite the fact that I was delivered by a Jamaican, I grew up in snow-white Belfast, and then a very monoethnic part of Lancashire. It's just unusual for me, although that feeling wuickly disappears after a few minutes of conversation.
CountArach
01-12-2010, 15:07
But wouldn't the whole idea of refugees help prevent the world wide revolution?
As if people had to stay, they would have to fight for what is right, thus bring about the change to bring justice back, opposed to running away from their problems.
That's cynical and inhumane.
Unless of course you are sarcastic, but I don't know...
Furunculus
01-12-2010, 15:09
meh, i grew up in africa. not a problem.
But wouldn't the whole idea of refugees help prevent the world wide revolution?
As if people had to stay, they would have to fight for what is right, thus bring about the change to bring justice back, opposed to running away from their problems.
What about the father who takes his wife and young child and flees certain death?
What about the father who takes his wife and young child and flees certain death?
The argument is, if they stayed and united with others, to protect their wife and young child, opposed to running away, they can stop the certain death by fighting those who do that not only to their wife and child, but the wife of child of many others.
Think of it this way. There is a room full of people, a couple of people have guns. If they united together, they can easily overcome the people with guns, thus solves the problem. A few people will die, but the problem is solved.
On the otherhand, if they all fleed to another room, what about all those people in there? They would have to share their food, drinks, etc. What about if the people in that room have guns as well and oppressing? Do you keep running away, room to room? to you find a cramped corner some where, while those people with guns in the other rooms are there feasting away on all those resources, since people were too chicken to confront them?
Wow. No oversimplification of the issues there.
Of course that works if you look at numbers on a page, but what does the father see when he looks at his family, a statistic or a fearful wife and scared, confused child?
CountArach
01-12-2010, 15:39
By that argument we should lock them out of Australia so that they will return to (as a common example) Indonesia... a country that they have just fled and in which they are now considered criminals... thus meaning that upon their return (assuming they can actually make it back to Indonesia, which is always far from certain on the crafts they use) they are locked up for life or worse. This doesn't lead to revolution any more than them coming here. Fear would continue to keep people in place. Revolutions are naturally occurring events that are dependent upon the conditions in a particular place at a particular time - they cannot be forced as there is no revolutionary infrastructure is in place.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-12-2010, 17:50
That's cynical and inhumane.
Unless of course you are sarcastic, but I don't know...
Beskar does have a point (how is it we are agreeing). You can take it to extremes, but there is definately an argument that you shouldn't accept every refugee without looking carefully at how much danger they are actually in.
About the Camps, if the people are treated well I think it is preferable to allowing them to dissapear into society-at-large, where they may become illegals and really be badly treated.
HoreTore
01-12-2010, 19:33
Beskar does have a point (how is it we are agreeing). You can take it to extremes, but there is definately an argument that you shouldn't accept every refugee without looking carefully at how much danger they are actually in.
I don't see what right you have to decide where I can live, who I can be friends with, who I can love or who I can work for.
I do not believe that a state should have that kind of power over us.
Furunculus
01-12-2010, 21:44
I don't see what right you have to decide where I can live, who I can be friends with, who I can love or who I can work for.
I do not believe that a state should have that kind of power over us.
i think there is a million BNP voters who absolutely want their government to operate stringent border controls, and many millions more who at least sympathise with the aim even if they are not willing to vote BNP to say so.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-12-2010, 22:28
I don't see what right you have to decide where I can live, who I can be friends with, who I can love or who I can work for.
I do not believe that a state should have that kind of power over us.
On the other hand, you have no rights other than those acknowledged by your State.
Let's turn it around, what right do you have to come and live in my country if I don't want you to? I am a citizen, you are not; why shouldn't I be allowed to have a say who comes into my nation and is granted membership of the citizenry?
Otherwise, you just a situation where people come and take what they can from who they can, either peacfully or otherwise. The fact that this is exactly what your ancestors tried to do to some of mine rather proves the point.
HoreTore
01-12-2010, 22:44
i think there is a million BNP voters who absolutely want their government to operate stringent border controls, and many millions more who at least sympathise with the aim even if they are not willing to vote BNP to say so.
On the other hand, you have no rights other than those acknowledged by your State.
Let's turn it around, what right do you have to come and live in my country if I don't want you to? I am a citizen, you are not; why shouldn't I be allowed to have a say who comes into my nation and is granted membership of the citizenry?
Otherwise, you just a situation where people come and take what they can from who they can, either peacfully or otherwise. The fact that this is exactly what your ancestors tried to do to some of mine rather proves the point.
I don't really care about what fascists or whatever believe they can control - I still want their filthy bodies away from me. Just like I don't care what religious fundies believe, I will still continue my adultery and sodomy as much as I please.
Phillipvs; let's say you want to buy a house in Tinyidyllicenglishvillageington. I don't like you, and decide that you can move here, you'll have to stay back in Smoginfectedhellholeshire. Is it my right to tell you where you can or can't live? I'd say no. And I can't see why that should change just because of some arbitrary line on a map.
Also; why on earth should my potential partners be limited by that line as well? Why shouldn't I be allowed to be with the woman I love? Why should I be forced to live without her?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-12-2010, 22:56
I don't really care about what fascists or whatever believe they can control - I still want their filthy bodies away from me. Just like I don't care what religious fundies believe, I will still continue my adultery and sodomy as much as I please.
Why do you hurl all this hatred around; I say that the members of a society should have a say in who is a part of that society and you call me a facist! Anyway, you say you want the filthy "facist" bodies away from you, isn't that the same thing.
Phillipvs; let's say you want to buy a house in Tinyidyllicenglishvillageington. I don't like you, and decide that you can move here, you'll have to stay back in Smoginfectedhellholeshire. Is it my right to tell you where you can or can't live? I'd say no. And I can't see why that should change just because of some arbitrary line on a map.
Lets be more explicit: If I want to emmigrate to Norway it is the right of the Norwegian State to bar me from entry if they believe I am unsuitable or harmful to Norwegian society.
Also; why on earth should my potential partners be limited by that line as well? Why shouldn't I be allowed to be with the woman I love? Why should I be forced to live without her?
Funny you should ask, my Mother married my Father and that ended the issue.
Article Thirteen of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that:
* (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
* (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
So if HoreTore was British, then PVC couldn't do or say anything if HoreTore moved into his town. On the other hand, if he was fleeing Norway, he has the right to leave but he doesn't have the right to enter the UK.
HoreTore
01-12-2010, 23:29
Why do you hurl all this hatred around; I say that the members of a society should have a say in who is a part of that society and you call me a facist! Anyway, you say you want the filthy "facist" bodies away from you, isn't that the same thing.
I've never called you a fascist, I called the BNP that Furunculus brought up fascists ~;) And as far as I know they don't deny that claim, so it really should be completely uncontroversial to call them that...
[QUOTE=Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla;2413554]Lets be more explicit: If I want to emmigrate to Norway it is the right of the Norwegian State to bar me from entry if they believe I am unsuitable or harmful to Norwegian society.
It is currently; and that's a right I don't want the state or society to have.
Funny you should ask, my Mother married my Father and that ended the issue.
Hah! :smash:
Furunculus
01-12-2010, 23:54
I don't really care about what fascists or whatever believe they can control - I still want their filthy bodies away from me. Just like I don't care what religious fundies believe, I will still continue my adultery and sodomy as much as I please.
i think you will find the vast majority of those 'fascists' are in fact merely good honest working class people who feel beset, and recognise that mainstream politics isn't interested in helping them.
I've never called you a fascist, I called the BNP that Furunculus brought up fascists ~;) And as far as I know they don't deny that claim, so it really should be completely uncontroversial to call them that...
ah, silly me, i was more concerned about what the voters want, you know; the plebs.
About the Camps, if the people are treated well I think it is preferable to allowing them to dissapear into society-at-large, where they may become illegals and really be badly treated.
Oh, I'm surprised. I didn't think you would agree so quickly that they should be let into the country.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-13-2010, 01:12
Oh, I'm surprised. I didn't think you would agree so quickly that they should be let into the country.
Genuine Asylum Seekers should be looked after, but people with their cases unresolved should not be allowed to roam around the country, where they simply dissapear into the underbelly of society and become someone's indentured servants.
"Detention Centres" make perfect sense if they are used to sort out who should, and who should not, stay, but the process should be swift and transparent. So long as the centres are reasonably comfortable and people are not kept there over-long I think they're better than any of the alternatives.
Megas Methuselah
01-13-2010, 04:10
All the native Americans who currently inhabit northern Canada and Greenland, the Thule people, arrived from Alaska only in the 13th to 15th century. They genocided the Dorset people - who had been living in Canada forever since the 9th century, when the Dorset themselves arrived from Asia and genocided the peoples of Northern Canada.
This same Thule people is probably responsible for the genocide of Greenland's unique Vikingo-American culture.
That's two genocides in an area triple that of Québec, started only three centuries before the French settled Canada. The last remnants of the Dorset people, the original inhabitants of the continent Megas' ancestors (?) stole from them, died out only the century before the French arrived.
That's nice and all, but you listed the northern Aboriginal (Yukon, Northwest, and Nunuvut territories, etc; the extreme northern parts of Canada), mainly Inuit, history. My people, and basically all people south of the Inuit, are pre-Dorset. IIRC, the earliest we could have arrived (according to the landbridge theory, anyways) is c. 40'000 years ago, with the latest being c. 12'000 years ago. Canada's landmass isn't restricted to the Arctic, you know; it's a bit of an insult to apply Inuit history over that of my own.
Anyways, if you take a good look at those pretty Inuit girls, you'll notice they have some suspiciously common Asiatic features, proof of their recent arrival on the continent relative to that of the earlier Aboriginal peoples further south.
You're the desendent of genocidal Asians who so obliterated the previous inhabitants of the continent that all that remains now are their stone tools, but who's counting?
Yea', that's how we do it in mah hood! The whole thing's a matter of debate though, so it may not be entirely safe to jump at conclusions just yet.
Samurai Waki
01-13-2010, 04:54
The American Aboriginals are certainly an interesting lot. Although like Megas' has said, most natives south of the Arctic are Pre Dorset. As far as Clovians go, nobody is really sure what happened, some think Toba (or the ice age following it) wiped em' out, or if that didn't do it the arrival of Pre Dorset peoples certainly did, whether it was genocide or they merged. The debate is still pretty heated, however, although the Natives down in the US seem to disregard a lot of compelling evidence to suggest their people weren't the first in the Americas.
The Blackfeet, as it stands are probably the greatest argument for the Clovians, maybe even descendants.
Megas Methuselah
01-13-2010, 06:41
The Blackfeet, as it stands are probably the greatest argument for the Clovians, maybe even descendants.
Which ones, and why? As far as I'm aware, the Blackfoot tribes speak an Algonquian language, just like most of us in the northeast. And I don't mean to sound insulting or anything, but am merely curious.
Samurai Waki
01-13-2010, 07:09
All of them. I took Native American Studies as a Liberal Arts credit, I don't have my book anymore :shame:, but I can distinctly remember an article where they linked the Blackfoot (and yes, also the Algonquin, as well as Mandans) to possibly the Clovians, since they carry a distinct genetic marker not found in other Natives, but since they don't actually have a good Clovian blood sample, so the assertion has been shot down. They do know however that Blackfoot (as well as Algonquin, and Mandan) have/had been around a very long time, and it's a shame the Mandan were completely wiped out, since they were extremely distinct. It's too bad most tribes didn't write things down, so much has been lost.
Megas Methuselah
01-13-2010, 07:43
All of them. I took Native American Studies as a Liberal Arts credit, I don't have my book anymore :shame:, but I can distinctly remember an article where they linked the Blackfoot (and yes, also the Algonquin, as well as Mandans) to possibly the Clovians, since they carry a distinct genetic marker not found in other Natives, but since they don't actually have a good Clovian blood sample, so the assertion has been shot down. They do know however that Blackfoot (as well as Algonquin, and Mandan) have/had been around a very long time, and it's a shame the Mandan were completely wiped out, since they were extremely distinct. It's too bad most tribes didn't write things down, so much has been lost.
That sounds interesting, and I believe I'll take a look into it. I like to imagine that the Clovis people survive by blood in our present First Peoples, but PVC will probably strike down anything I say (he really hates me :sad:).
Btw, be careful over the usage of the word "Algonquin." There's a difference between the Algonquin nation and the Algonquian language group. The nation is just that: a single nation or tribe that was historically located in the James Bay/Great Lakes area. The language group, though, spans over many different tribal groups scattered across mostly the north-eastern part of North America; all those tribes speak related languages. In my previous post, I meant the language group, and not the tribe.
I just realized how incredibly limited my knowledge of the native-americans is, somewhere between zip and nothing at all. Got something to read for me? Never really gave it any thought while I am sucking up Euro history like a sponge.
Tristuskhan
01-13-2010, 08:12
The argument is, if they stayed and united with others, to protect their wife and young child, opposed to running away, they can stop the certain death by fighting those who do that not only to their wife and child, but the wife of child of many others.
Think of it this way. There is a room full of people, a couple of people have guns. If they united together, they can easily overcome the people with guns, thus solves the problem. A few people will die, but the problem is solved.
On the otherhand, if they all fleed to another room, what about all those people in there? They would have to share their food, drinks, etc. What about if the people in that room have guns as well and oppressing? Do you keep running away, room to room? to you find a cramped corner some where, while those people with guns in the other rooms are there feasting away on all those resources, since people were too chicken to confront them?
?!Really?
So let's say you're 30 years old, the war began in your country when you were born. You've seen many, many attemps to unite, all met with treason and more war. War that prevented you to go to school, by the way. You're a farmer, maybe a good one but even when you have good harvests, the sale of it won't allow you to pay for basic hygiene (since imported goods will always be cheaper on the marketplace) that would prevent wife and children to risk death in childbirth. Inch'Allah, your first son is healthy and you hope you won't blow on a landmine (your fields are still dangerous) and see him growing. Foreigners came and chased the mad mollahs that ruled the country some years ago to bring justice and democracy, but you've seen that the last elections were a joke, a cheatfeast, and war is still there. Anyway, everytime you took arms since you're old enough to carry one, the outcome was more lies, corruption, crookery.
Welcome in the real world, you're Afghan! Cheers!
Now despite this hostile life, you still have a brain (many of your neighbours don't). You've heard that european chicken are treated marginaly better than Afghan children, you're still young and retain all your limbs and, Inch'Allah, wife is not pregnant for the moment. You look at your fields knowing that they are mined and that one day or another, you or your relatives are likely to blow, Inch'Allah! And you look at the horizon and think maybe it's time to leave and forget this rotten country of yours. Maybe it's time for the chicken to migrate since he has waited for too long.
Were you ironic, Beskar? Fleeing some countries is not cowardice but common sense.
Megas Methuselah
01-13-2010, 08:19
I just realized how incredibly limited my knowledge of the native-americans is, somewhere between zip and nothing at all. Got something to read for me? Never really gave it any thought while I am sucking up Euro history like a sponge.
Well, if you're interested in studying some of my own ancestors, you could try William Warren's History of the Ojibway People (http://books.google.ca/books?id=-VV1RxhHOWsC&dq=history+of+the+ojibway+people&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=EG5NS-_uKpGHlAe6942ODQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false). Warren was a Metis man who wrote the spectacular book in the 19th century, and there are many different editions. I simply loaned the latest one from the FNUC library when I needed it for some research when I wrote my essay last semester. He uses some archaic words and phrases every now and then, but it is certainly understandable. You can learn how my Ojibway ancestors became a regional power and militarily expanded to occupy the vast expanse of land on which they presently live.
An even better book, and certainly much better suited to someone newly-introduced to Amerindian history, would be Ronald Wright's Stolen Continents: Conquest and Resistance in the Americas (http://www.amazon.ca/Stolen-Continents-Anniversary-Ronald-Wright/dp/0143015001). This book is absolutely amazing. Personally, I think you would enjoy it more as it connects closely with the European history that I am certain you are already quite familiar with. It concentrates on the history of the Aztecs, Incas, Maya, Iroquois, and Cherokee as they deal with colonialism, even up to the present day. Not only does it deal with history, then, but also includes aspects of present political turmoil that occurs between the governments and indigenous peoples. Highly recommended.
:smile:
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 09:07
i think you will find the vast majority of those 'fascists' are in fact merely good honest working class people who feel beset, and recognise that mainstream politics isn't interested in helping them.
ah, silly me, i was more concerned about what the voters want, you know; the plebs.
A supporter of a fascist is also a fascist, or at best a complete idiot.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 09:40
A supporter of a fascist is also a fascist, or at best a complete idiot.
or someone who realises that mainstream politics doesn't represent them, but a protest votes to a fringe party that the mainstream consensus wishes to remain an isolated fringe may result in a reappraisal of the mainstream consensus, and thus result in a more representative democracy.
anyone who thinks that the vast majority of those BNP votes were dyed-in-the-wool fascists is an idiot.
A supporter of a fascist is also a fascist, or at best a complete idiot.
If a country wouldn't be led by idiots party's like the BNP wouldn't be a last resort for the majority of BNP-voters. In the meantime without any fanfare and no press at all we have now for 12 days lived in the Euro-Mediteranian partnership, look it up.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 10:36
or someone who realises that mainstream politics doesn't represent them, but a protest votes to a fringe party that the mainstream consensus wishes to remain an isolated fringe may result in a reappraisal of the mainstream consensus, and thus result in a more representative democracy.
anyone who thinks that the vast majority of those BNP votes were dyed-in-the-wool fascists is an idiot.
There really is no excuse for supporting a fascist. Being upset with mainstream politics isn't an excuse either.
We live in free democracies, people. Make your own damn party if you don't like the big ones. If you vote for a social democratic party, you're a social democrat or at least tolerant of social democracy. If you vote conservative, you're a conservative or at least tolerant of conservatism. If you vote fascist, you're a fascist or at least tolerant of fascism. Or lazy.
If a country wouldn't be led by idiots party's like the BNP wouldn't be a last resort for the majority of BNP-voters. In the meantime without any fanfare and no press at all we have now for 12 days lived in the Euro-Mediteranian partnership, look it up.
You mean the thing I've been reading about in the newspaper for the last 3 years or so?
You mean the thing I've been reading about in the newspaper for the last 3 years or so?
yeahright sure you did. Pics or it didn't happen.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 10:51
yeahright sure you did. Pics or it didn't happen.
Hah! It's been -30 here these last few weeks, you think I have papers I haven't burned? :smash:
Anyway, Aftenposten has had articles on it in their "world"-section for at least the last couple of years. Sarkozy has been heavily involved in it, aftenposten loves to do stories on Sarkozy, you do the maths ~;)
Also, I know about it. How would I know about it I didn't read about it in the papers? It's not like I search the interwebs for obscure references to what you southerners are up to at all times...
Though I can't remember any articles on it in Dagbladet or VG, our two biggest papers.
Well Aftenposten's reputation speaks in favor of your claim, heard it is an excellent newspaper.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 11:39
Well Aftenposten's reputation speaks in favor of your claim, heard it is an excellent newspaper.
Indeed it is! The last big non-tabloid paper we have.
I'm sure Morgenbladet has reported it as well though, but I'm not a regular reader of that paper(they don't sell it at many places), and perhaps Klassekampen too.
Were you ironic, Beskar? Fleeing some countries is not cowardice but common sense.
I said "The argument is", I am not expressing my personal opinion, French-Beskar.
Though it could be argued that fleeing means any chance of that country getting anyway is falling down the cliff due to him and others not working together to make the country a better place. As you are talking about Afghanistan which is on the recieving end of major Western investment. Getting rid of the trouble-makers in your area would be a good start by informing Allied command, etc.
Once the trouble is gone, you can attempt to return to a good life, farming, selling, buying, eating, etc.
Presuming that you must at least symphasise with the Allies if you are considering fleeing to their country.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 12:22
I said "The argument is", I am not expressing my personal opinion, French-Beskar.
Though it could be argued that fleeing means any chance of that country getting anyway is falling down the cliff due to him and others not working together to make the country a better place. As you are talking about Afghanistan which is on the recieving end of major Western investment. Getting rid of the trouble-makers in your area would be a good start by informing Allied command, etc.
Once the trouble is gone, you can attempt to return to a good life, farming, selling, buying, eating, etc.
Presuming that you must at least symphasise with the Allies if you are considering fleeing to their country.
When Norwegians fled our piss-poor country in the late 1800's, the country was better off because of it.
When Norwegians fled our piss-poor country in the late 1800's, the country was better off because of it.
There is a difference in argument there. Unable to support the population due to conditions of the environment is not the same. That would simply be classed as immigratation.
Only real counter to my example are systematic fear by nations such as Communist China, Nazi Germany, etc, the reason that is, if you are Jewish in Nazi Germany, just get the hell out of there. That is a case where being a refugee is an obvious example. Communist China would be a similar one, you either follow the will of the party, or just get out of there, simply because the Communist Party in China is that popular.
The main differences here are obvious. If you are in a country where no one supports the government, there is plenty of scope for change. But if you are a vast minority to a popular government, then you simply have no chance.
but then again, History has shown that when a population fight for something, they can get it. Such an example are equal rights for whites and blacks in America. The blacks fought and changed the system, opposed to getting on a boat to elsewhere. Though the difference here, they were not getting genocided or massacred.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 12:42
There is a difference in argument there. Unable to support the population due to conditions of the environment is not the same. That would simply be classed as immigratation.
Only real counter to my example are systematic fear by nations such as Communist China, Nazi Germany, etc, the reason that is, if you are Jewish in Nazi Germany, just get the hell out of there. That is a case where being a refugee is an obvious example. Communist China would be a similar one, you either follow the will of the party, or just get out of there, simply because the Communist Party in China is that popular.
The main differences here are obvious. If you are in a country where no one supports the government, there is plenty of scope for change. But if you are a vast minority to a popular government, then you simply have no chance.
but then again, History has shown that when a population fight for something, they can get it. Such an example are equal rights for whites and blacks in America. The blacks fought and changed the system, opposed to getting on a boat to elsewhere. Though the difference here, they were not getting genocided or massacred.
The Norwegians who left the country were part of a majority run by a highly unpopular foreign government....
I think that if you want to understand the grievances of those flocking to the nastier sides of the right you should look for something much closer to home, namely multiculturalism. Most of these people aren't refugees they are colonists. They don't have any added benefit economically and that doesn't go unnoticed, and they make the life of many people miserable which is felt. Police can't enter certain neighborhoods while the elite still preaches how we should feel about that and destroys anything that doesn't get how great it all is. Can't keep doing this.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 12:57
I think that if you want to understand the grievances of those flocking to the nastier sides of the right you should look for something much closer to home, namely multiculturalism.
Still no excuse for supporting fascism.
If they don't like the status quo, they should simply start their own party. No reason to support people who believes jews and gas go well together.
s
but then again, History has shown that when a population fight for something, they can get it. Such an example are equal rights for whites and blacks in America. The blacks fought and changed the system, opposed to getting on a boat to elsewhere. Though the difference here, they were not getting genocided or massacred
The fought for equal rights for centuries, yet only got them when the system was prepared to work with them. Whether they forced the system to work with them remains a source of debate.
I think that if you want to understand the grievances of those flocking to the nastier sides of the right you should look for something much closer to home, namely multiculturalism. Most of these people aren't refugees they are colonists. They don't have any added benefit economically and that doesn't go unnoticed, and they make the life of many people miserable which is felt. Police can't enter certain neighborhoods while the elite still preaches how we should feel about that and destroys anything that doesn't get how great it all is. Can't keep doing this.
Is that a failure of the refugees or government policy? Immigrants of all colours and religions have integrated remarkably well in the USA (Apart from blacks, but they were the only group to enter it non-voluntarily.). Multiculturalism as an idea works perfectly well, when it's implemented well. It's just on the Continent, you've all made a pig's ear out of it (Though we're hardly free from blame)
Still no excuse for supporting fascism.
If they don't like the status quo, they should simply start their own party. No reason to support people who believe that jews and mustard gas go well together.
I am glad we have a decent right-wing party here (well only rightwing on immigration) but if I would live in a bad English neighborhood (and they are bad) where the police doesn't even go I would feel pretty cornered. Politics needs to wise up.
Example from here, there has been a bit of turmoil between Malaku's and Maroccans in a small town, it is a pretty dangerous situation, 5 Maroccan guys tried to roadkill a 13 year old Malaku girl, The Malaku's devision of the Hell's Angels has threatened to act if the politicians won't, and I wouldn't mess with these guys. What is the reaction of the minister of national affairs, she sends in 3 street-coaches. Does she have any idea what is happening, what planet does she come from?
Is that a failure of the refugees or government policy?
Government policy. In the USA you are what you are, nobody expects anything more. But here someone has a dream.
In many ways, it has worked well. Only problems with it are: Racists and those failing to assilimate into society and strangely oppose it.
In a way, Multicultural Society in concept can be seen as the borg...
In the Star Trek fictional universe, assimilation is the process by which the Borg integrate beings and cultures into their collective. "You will be assimilated" is one of the few on-screen phrases employed by the Borg when communicating with other species. The Borg are portrayed as having encountered and assimilated thousands of species and billions to trillions of individual life-forms throughout the galaxy.
The differences is, they bring their cultural, ideas and technological with them, which can assist in adapting and improving the system, to become a more superior system.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-13-2010, 13:21
Multiculturalism as an idea works perfectly well, when it's implemented well. It's just on the Continent, you've all made a pig's ear out of it (Though we're hardly free from blame)
I'd like to see some evidence that multi-culturalism actually works ever. I can't think of an example.
In many ways, it has worked well. Only problems with it are: Racists and those failing to assilimate into society and strangely oppose it.
There is no, or hardly any, racism in the Netherlands. The multiculturalist dream tends to become positive discrimination when things go wrong, and people can see that, those that are supposed to run a country grasping at straws when they don't have an answer. It are so many small things that ultimately adds up to becoming something unbearable. The people lecturing you have no idea what they are talking about they live in an alternative reality where society is always to blame and it are just a few screws that need a few 360's. But it isn't, for some life is a living hell they have to deal with intimidation daily. You can't expect those people to trust the status quo, it's the status quo that lets them down.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 13:56
In many ways, it has worked well. Only problems with it are: Racists and those failing to assilimate into society and strangely oppose it.
In a way, Multicultural Society in concept can be seen as the borg...
The differences is, they bring their cultural, ideas and technological with them, which can assist in adapting and improving the system, to become a more superior system.
your borg analogy sounds far more like america than europes multiculturalism.
your borg analogy sounds far more like america than europes multiculturalism.
It is the American/Austrialian and Anglosphere opinion, which many British actually agree with. "If they come to our country, they must obey our rules, our laws, and become British. If they want to still be a racist-term, they can go back there."
It is a opinion some one could symphaise with quite easy.
It is the American/Austrialian and Anglosphere opinion, which many British actually agree with. "If they come to our country, they must obey our rules, our laws, and become British. If they want to still be a racist-term, they can go back there."
It is a opinion some one could symphaise with quite easy.
Agree until 'become British', can't expect that from them as you aren't giving any clarity on which lines can't be crossed. On monday you are inviting it, on tuesday you are giving it, on wednesday you are wondering why, on thursday you want it back, and on friday you just take it, have a nice weekend it was a great week.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 14:47
It is the American/Austrialian and Anglosphere opinion, which many British actually agree with. "If they come to our country, they must obey our rules, our laws, and become British. If they want to still be a racist-term, they can go back there."
i agree with it.
i agree with it.
In what Britain would the have to be become british, you don't even know yourself.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 14:54
In what Britain would the have to be become british, you don't even know yourself.
que?
que?
Ok, how do you expect people to integrate in a climate of cultural relativism, you say behave! but we don't say how they should behave. Grab them lefties, they are to blame.
Government policy. In the USA you are what you are, nobody expects anything more. But here someone has a dream.
Um, the American Dream?
I'd like to see some evidence that multi-culturalism actually works ever. I can't think of an example.
America is a great example, as is Brazil. To a lesser extent, immigrants have assimalated well in the Uk too.
Um, the American Dream?
That would be great but I am afraid they are dreaming of something else.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 15:13
Ok, how do you expect people to integrate in a climate of cultural relativism, you say behave! but we don't say how they should behave. Grab them lefties, they are to blame.
ah, i understand, and agree.
That would be great but I am afraid they are dreaming of something else.
Which would be...?
And what's wrong with the idea of a "European Dream"?
Freude, schöner Götterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium...
*Wipes a patriotic tear away from his eye*
Which would be...?
A lot. And none of it is very realistic.
I like multiculturalism.
I got my South African plums, my Chicken Tikka sandwich, my Vientnam peanuts, with my Spanish orange drink.
aka - my lunch today.
I like multiculturalism.
I got my South African plums, my Chicken Tikka sandwich, my Vientnam peanuts, with my Spanish orange drink.
aka - my lunch today.
Sure, and where I live there is no problem at all, it's really cozy. And I like to keep it like that, I do not agree with this euro-mediteranean agreement to say the least and give kqri a welcome warm back.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 16:10
I like multiculturalism.
I got my South African plums, my Chicken Tikka sandwich, my Vientnam peanuts, with my Spanish orange drink.
aka - my lunch today.
you think multi-culturalism = free trade?
you think multi-culturalism = free trade?
Because of other cultures influences, I am able to buy these things, as shops have them stocked.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 16:17
you think multi-culturalism = free trade?
For me to enjoy my Kebab at 04:00 on a saturday night I need the Turk who's making it here in my town, not stuck in Turkey.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 16:19
Because of other cultures influences, I am able to buy these things, as shops have them stocked.
no, that's called free trade, i think you'll find we were importing tea* and bananas quite some time before multiculturalism** outed itself as stupid idea of the day.
* Although the custom of drinking tea dates back to the third millennium BC in China, it was not until the mid 17th century that the beverage first appeared in England.
** Multiculturalism was adopted as official policy, in several Western nations from the 1970s onward, for reasons that varied from country to country. Multiculturalism is the acceptance or promotion of multiple ethnic cultures, for practical reasons and/or for the sake of diversity and applied to the demographic make-up of a specific place, usually at the organizational level, e.g. schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities or nations.
** Multiculturalism was adopted as official policy, in several Western nations from the 1970s onward, for reasons that varied from country to country. Multiculturalism is the acceptance or promotion of multiple ethnic cultures, for practical reasons and/or for the sake of diversity and applied to the demographic make-up of a specific place, usually at the organizational level, e.g. schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities or nations.
aka, allowing black and white kids go to the same school, instead of different schools based on their skin colour.
aka, allowing black and white kids go to the same school, instead of different schools based on their skin colour.
That is peanuts, in Amsterdam the only condition for getting a high function at the city council is not being white, actual job describtion. Then you are excluded, can't join, aren't welcome, unable to participate.
lefties.
Furunculus
01-13-2010, 16:38
aka, allowing black and white kids go to the same school, instead of different schools based on their skin colour.
that is not what it is, as it is practised in britain, and you know it.
That is peanuts, in Amsterdam the only condition for getting a high function at the city council is not being white, actual job describtion. Then you are excluded, can't join, aren't welcome, unable to participate.
lefties.
I was talking about the 1970's, in particular, the end of Racial segregation in the United States in schools. (Yes, it was that recent.)
nutjobs.
I was talking about the 1970's, in particular, the end of Racial segregation in the United States in schools. (Yes, it was that recent.)
nutjobs.
Yeah?
But if you are a native white you still can't get a job at city council. You wouldn't be a reflexion of society. Now Amsterdam is Amsterdam but this sort of lunacy is everywhere lefties get to chew cables.
Ser Clegane
01-13-2010, 17:07
That is peanuts, in Amsterdam the only condition for getting a high function at the city council is not being white, actual job describtion. Then you are excluded, can't join, aren't welcome, unable to participate.
Source?
This sounds a bit like hyperbole.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 17:10
That is peanuts, in Amsterdam the only condition for getting a high function at the city council is not being white, actual job describtion. Then you are excluded, can't join, aren't welcome, unable to participate.
lefties.
As opposed to the private sector, where the job description is "being white"...?
Let's face it Frags; we as heterosexual, white males do have an advantage over those who are not. When job applications are flicked through, we will be chosen by default if our qualifications are about equal.
That is the reason why other groups are "positively discriminated".
Ser Clegane
01-13-2010, 17:24
When job applications are flicked through, we will be chosen by default if our qualifications are about equal.
And here goes another generalisation.
This might be true in some sectors but as a general statement it is certainly wrong.
And here goes another generalisation.
This might be true in some sectors but as a general statement it is certainly wrong.
Not entirely, then they brought in quotas, so businesses sometimes even go for lower qualified, just to create the numbers. That is the effects of positive discrimination. Which is ultimately a bad idea as well.
Then there are others who just throw job applications in the bin without even reading them, because they had an arabian sounding name. This is what forces government to do things like positive discrimination to attempt to prevent this from happening.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 17:35
And here goes another generalisation.
This might be true in some sectors but as a general statement it is certainly wrong.
You do not believe that John Smith will have a higher chance of getting employed than Ahmed Talibani...?
Let's face it Frags; we as heterosexual, white males do have an advantage over those who are not. When job applications are flicked through, we will be chosen by default if our qualifications are about equal.
No, it's about as easy as putting on a tie everybody wants his pet-worker. Introducing with 'yo' with your pants hanging on your knees doesn't help.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 17:40
No, it's about as easy as putting on a tie everybody wants his pet-worker. Introducing with 'yo' with your pants hanging on your knees doesn't help.
How can you put on a tie in a job application...?
Alright, let's say it's like you say, we have no better chance at getting employed than minorities. Why is it so, that a person with an arab name gets no interviews, but when he changes only the name on his application to a native one, he suddenly gets called in for interviews...?
Ser Clegane
01-13-2010, 17:44
Not entirely, then they brought in quotas, so businesses sometimes even go for lower qualified, just to create the numbers. That is the effects of positive discrimination. Which is ultimately a bad idea as well.
Then there are others who just throw job applications in the bin without even reading them, because they had an arabian sounding name. This is what forces government to do things like positive discrimination to attempt to prevent this from happening.
Of course not entirely - hence the remark that this might be the case on some segments.
Also, if your employee mix is not e.g. 50:50 male/female that does not mean that you discriminate - it might simply be a reflection of the mix of your applications.
I do not deny that some employers will not start reading the resumee of the guy with the Arabic name - I somehow doubt though that quota will help a lot improve such specific situations.
In many cases, people will still simply go for the obvious solution - hire the most suitable candidate.
Fun fact: When we hired for our US team we had to deliver data to some kind of governmental authority on the share of applications we received by ethnic group. Not very easy when applications are not supposed to include a photo or information on ethnicity...
Ser Clegane
01-13-2010, 17:48
You do not believe that John Smith will have a higher chance of getting employed than Ahmed Talibani...?
At some places this will be the case. At a lot of places it will not make a difference. That's why I disagree with your generalisation.
Example from my personal job situation:
I have a team with 11 people in the US and in Europe. Out of these 11 only three meet your profile of a while, heterosexual male.
How can you put on a tie in a job application...?
Alright, let's say it's like you say, we have no better chance at getting employed than minorities. Why is it so, that a person with an arab name gets no interviews, but when he changes only the name on his application to a native one, he suddenly gets called in for interviews...?
Must be bad luck, government usually compensates all your losses, very lucrative, you can get up to 20.000 euro per immigrant a year from the import-industry, wether they exist or not, they are just shoveling.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 18:10
Must be bad luck, government usually compensates all your losses, very lucrative, you can get up to 20.000 euro per immigrant a year from the import-industry, wether they exist or not, they are just shoveling.
Bad luck does not explain a difference of zero interviews to dozen interviews.
The only explanation for that is the simplest one; racism.
Bad luck does not explain a difference of zero interviews to dozen interviews.
The only explanation for that is the simplest one; racism.
No, they aren't worth the trouble, if they suddenly appear in a burqa you know you will be sued, and lose. And they will see how far they can go.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 18:21
No, they aren't worth the trouble, if they suddenly appear in a burqa you know you will be sued, and lose. And they will see how far they can go.
I seriously doubt anyone named "Ahmed Talibani" has an urge to wear a burqa....
The exaggeration on both sides is very entertaining.
I seriously doubt anyone named "Ahmed Talibani" has an urge to wear a burqa....
Well it's a pity for him that his religious brothers are such a pain. They come somewhere and they demand a place to pray. At work. No.
Why is Muslims praying at work such a problem for you? You claim that multi-culturalism doesn't work, and yet you come out with stuff like that. It's very circular logic.
Read what I said earlier about arabic names. People do actions like that which force people having to comply by hiring a certain number of ethnic minorities.
Unfortunately, it gives those who didn't want to hire them in the first place a big grumble saying they have to do it now.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 19:36
Read what I said earlier about arabic names. People do actions like that which force people having to comply by hiring a certain number of ethnic minorities.
Unfortunately, it gives those who didn't want to hire them in the first place a big grumble saying they have to do it now.
Death solves all problems. No man, no problem.
Ser Clegane
01-13-2010, 19:38
Bad luck does not explain a difference of zero interviews to dozen interviews.
Do you have some more information on this case you are referring to? Is it documented somewhere?
It would actually be interesting to know what kind of job the guy was applying for and if the the name was indeed the only thing that was changed in the resumee.
HoreTore
01-13-2010, 19:41
Do you have some more information on this case you are referring to? Is it documented somewhere?
It would actually be interesting to know what kind of job the guy was applying for and if the the name was indeed the only thing that was changed in the resumee.
It's happened quite a few times, and yes, all it took was to change the name.
Can't remember the profession, sorry. And I read my newspapers in paper, my google-fu is rather weak...
Ser Clegane
01-13-2010, 20:18
Can't remember the profession, sorry. And I read my newspapers in paper, my google-fu is rather weak...
OK - I did a search and came across this study. I only briefly scanned the study and the results - but this would confirm the point you were making with regard to Arabic name.
Link opens pdf-file of study
Study: Measuring Priors against Arabic-Named Job Applicants: A Field Experiment (http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/events/spring09/nekby/nekby.pdf)
:bow:
My statement about Arabic-named Job Applicants was also a reference to a forum member who owns their own business and they also reject based on the name. So it is closer to home than you think as well.
Ser Clegane
01-13-2010, 22:01
So it is closer to home than you think as well.
???
He's talking about me, and yeah, guilty as charged. Not into that trade anymore btw. But if a name ends with ski you know you have someone who shows up every day and works his :daisy: of, is never sick, and causes no trouble, if it starts with el quite the opposite not worth the trouble.
Megas Methuselah
01-14-2010, 07:29
There was a study done a while back which was posted in the local newspaper (again, a while back). IIRC, it confirmed that employers have a tendency to discriminate against people with east Asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc.) surnames whilst shifting through job applications. I can only imagine how other job applications involving "foreign" or, perhaps better stated, "undesired" surnames are similarly treated.
HoreTore
01-14-2010, 09:19
He's talking about me, and yeah, guilty as charged. Not into that trade anymore btw. But if a name ends with ski you know you have someone who shows up every day and works his :daisy: of, is never sick, and causes no trouble, if it starts with el quite the opposite not worth the trouble.
Yeah, because I've never heard of a pole/russian who was late for work...
Furunculus
01-14-2010, 09:47
things with the poles is; you know they will work hard, and you know they won't bring some enormous cultural chip on their shoulder into your workplace.
which is a comment in its own right, and not an automatic reflection on another specific group, but you questioned the wisdom of preferring polish workers, so now you have an answer.
HoreTore
01-14-2010, 11:53
things with the poles is; you know they will work hard, and you know they won't bring some enormous cultural chip on their shoulder into your workplace.
which is a comment in its own right, and not an aoutomatic refelection on another specific groups, but you questioned the wisdom of preferring polish workers, so now you have an answer.
1. Never heard of what happens to an eastern euro when exposed to Vodka?
2. Quite a few eastern european workers don't even speak basic english...
Anyway. Take a look at the working conditions in the middle east, north africa, india, etc. That's not "hard work"....? Bah, 95% of us europeans would've called in sick after the first day...
I think it still depends on the person, there may be some cultural differences but then a pole who works hard may not work very accurate, an african who doesn't work very hard may be very clever etc. And how many of you post here from work, eh? :laugh4:
things with the poles is; you know they will work hard
Yeah and they take great pride in that. The only one who ever sat home sick was there because I told him to go home, payment on the house.
HoreTore
01-14-2010, 13:10
I think it still depends on the person
Husar just found gold!!
:2thumbsup:
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