Google on Chinese Censorship

[CountArach]

From the official google blog (http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html):

We launched Google.cn in January 2006 in the belief that the benefits of increased access to information for people in China and a more open Internet outweighed our discomfort in agreeing to censor some results. At the time we made clear that "we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China."

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.

The decision to review our business operations in China has been incredibly hard, and we know that it will have potentially far-reaching consequences. We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China who have worked incredibly hard to make Google.cn the success it is today. We are committed to working responsibly to resolve the very difficult issues raised.
And the Chinese response (http://rconversation.blogs.com/rconversation/2010/01/google-puts-its-foot-down.html):

Another person reports that all the Chinese Internet portals have been told by authorities that they're only allowed to use Xinhua News Agency and People's Daily reports on the subject - they're not allowed to use reports from other sources, and they should not feature today's news about Google on the front pages of their sites.
Well done Google - living up to their motto of "Don't be evil" in a country where this great evil is being perpetrated. Hopefully this will get some more Chinese people thinking about what their government is doing to their access to information.

[KukriKhan]

Well, the seed (of freely-flowing info) has been planted. It reminds me of 12-15 years ago, when computers were still a minority hobby, and only in 25% of US homes. Back then most "casual", non-tech folks signed up with AOL, which censored content pretty heavily. After a year or so of living in AOL's "Walled Garden", people would gradually become aware that there was more "out there", and developed a thirst for it.

AOL was not the government (though there were some conspiracy theories about that), but the effect was similar, I think: people will naturally tend to seek and find more info, including info that contradicts what they've been fed.

China will come along. Kicking and screaming maybe; but it will come along. Its citizens will demand it, having had a taste.

[Beskar]

Only problem of the internet, it can end up with too much information and the majority of it is incorrect.

[Vladimir]

Well, the seed (of freely-flowing info) has been planted. It reminds me of 12-15 years ago, when computers were still a minority hobby, and only in 25% of US homes. Back then most "casual", non-tech folks signed up with AOL, which censored content pretty heavily. After a year or so of living in AOL's "Walled Garden", people would gradually become aware that there was more "out there", and developed a thirst for it.

AOL was not the government (though there were some conspiracy theories about that), but the effect was similar, I think: people will naturally tend to seek and find more info, including info that contradicts what they've been fed.

China will come along. Kicking and screaming maybe; but it will come along. Its citizens will demand it, having had a taste.

I wish this were true because it implies an organized, perhaps governmental, effort. In the end I doubt there is the will for such an ambitious program.

I view Google's statement as a "strongly worded letter" and nothing more. In the end the status quo will continue unabated.

[Ronin]

a curious point comes up when one actually reads the google blog entry about this situation.


First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.

Note that the issue with censorship of human rights activists is point number 2.....point number 1 is corporate interest.....

Google very publicly stated it's "do no harm" rule...but they were the ones that agreed to the chinese rules in the first place.

this strikes me more as a company pissed off that it's IT structure was compromised and using the anti-censorship angle to garner some positive press.

[drone]

Well done Google - living up to their motto of "Don't be evil" in a country where this great evil is being perpetrated. Hopefully this will get some more Chinese people thinking about what their government is doing to their access to information.

I don't know about that. They have not really had any problem being "evil" up to this point in China, the market is too big. This is more of a response to what Google sees as a coordinated attack by the Chinese government to hack Google services. Google seems to have made great concessions to the Chinese government to operate there, and have still been abused, so they are taking their ball and going home (or threatening it, anyway).

[Crazed Rabbit]

Good for them - if they go through with it.

Though as mentioned, it could just be google getting angry and trying to seem noble, while getting burnt by the demon they lay down with.

Funny how it's not until their infrastructure is threatened that they seem to care about censorship in China.

CR

[Tellos Athenaios]

a curious point comes up when one actually reads the google blog entry about this situation.

Note that the issue with censorship of human rights activists is point number 2.....point number 1 is corporate interest.....

But that involves reading. And in case your understanding of how one builds an argument is vastly different from mine; all I saw in those 2 paragraphs were the reasons why Google considers the attack to haver originated/ordered from within Chinese government [basically their argument is that it looks like it was one party from within China harvesting all these sources at once; and the only the only party which would be interested in doing so would be (connected to) the Chinese intelligence services] -- and not some other individual hackers or organizations.

There is actually nothing about censorship per se; it is all about what they perceive as breach of contract/violation of trust [the implied argument being that Google and Chinese government had settled on a modus operandi that was now side-stepped by China].

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hmm, too bad for Google and the Chinese people. I have seen this in the news a few days ago and was shocked. What sort of sane for-profit corporation discard a market of the size of China? Surely they are not pretending to be moral?

Supposing I was a Chinese national, I would be saddened by this, as Google provides far more relevant results than any other search engine I have tried. Gmail is just about the best mail I have ever tried, and nearly all of my computer enthusiast friends concede on this point. Now, Google Shopping is rubbish, but that is another discussion. For the sake of brevity, Google provides superb service to any-one with a computer and Internet. I feel that Google was correct in their initial statements, that the benefits outweighed the moral implications.

Not to mention, numerous other countries censor results. In Arab countries, some Google results are censored, although AFAIK, the censorship is by the government authorities and not Google itself. Surely there is something else behind this declaration of the cessation of service? Or perhaps Google is not revealing the full scale of the alleged "attacks"?

[Subotan]

I'm just praying that Google will pull through OK.

[drone]

Surely there is something else behind this declaration of the cessation of service? Or perhaps Google is not revealing the full scale of the alleged "attacks"?

Google is now defaulting Gmail to HTTPS. Probably should have started that way, but :shrug:

Maybe companies are finally learning that dealing with the Chinese government is not worth the hassle, cost, or risk.

[A Very Super Market]

Mein gott, this is going to make my summer dragging's across the Pacific even worse.

China needs a good economic disaster to rile everyone up. That, or if industry starts moving into other places with too many bodies for any domestic product.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Maybe companies are finally learning that dealing with the Chinese government is not worth the hassle, cost, or risk.
Heh, yes, Economist ran an article several months ago about the immense difficulties of running profitable businesses in China. Very difficult - competition, corruption, illegal favouritism for native companies, red tape and overall inflexible as well as illiberal economic laws and regulations. And China is not exactly and unexplored market either, well, not overmuch so. For nearly everything Western companies make, the Chinese have a cheaper, indigenous counterpart. Or a knock-off.

Not to mention, let us not confuse trade with business. I doubt you meant to say we should stop trading with China - you merely said that actually selling in China was difficult. (correct me if I am wrong)

[drone]

For nearly everything Western companies make, the Chinese have a cheaper, indigenous counterpart. Or a knock-off.

:yes: The SOP is to offer a large marketplace and workforce, the only cost is your methods and IP through industrial espionage or "third shifts". Which kinda negates the "large marketplace" portion of the deal...

[Subotan]

China needs a good economic disaster to rile everyone up..
This. Some nice good old fashioned inflation would, and I think will, destroy the CCP.


M That, or if industry starts moving into other places with too many bodies for any domestic product.
India? Burma? Or dare I say it; Africa?

[Vladimir]

Hmm, too bad for Google and the Chinese people. I have seen this in the news a few days ago and was shocked. What sort of sane for-profit corporation discard a market of the size of China? Surely they are not pretending to be moral?

BBCA discussed this last night. A sane for-profit corporation discards a market that isn't profitable, regardless of size.

[KukriKhan]

Don Corleone has some personal experience conducting electronics business (or trying to) in China. Maybe he can offer some perspective.

[Beskar]

He left the forums in a fit of rage calling everyone eunuch Americans because they got no... well... you can add it up.

Also why Lemur had the tag-line "Eunuch American" for quite a while.

[Kadagar_AV]

He left the forums in a fit of rage calling everyone eunuch Americans because they got no... well... you can add it up.

Also why Lemur had the tag-line "Eunuch American" for quite a while.

:2thumbsup:

He def left a legacy with that term!

[Kurando]

Don Corleone has some personal experience conducting electronics business (or trying to) in China. Maybe he can offer some perspective.

Ahh, that makes sense. I was wondering what that "Five Year Plan" post on Don Corleone's blog was all about... :beam: https://img696.imageshack.us/img696/15/chairmandon.jpg

[Louis VI the Fat]

Note that the issue with censorship of human rights activists is point number 2.....point number 1 is corporate interest.....

Google very publicly stated it's "do no harm" rule...but they were the ones that agreed to the chinese rules in the first place.

this strikes me more as a company pissed off that it's IT structure was compromised and using the anti-censorship angle to garner some positive press.I think this is where it's at. The cyber-attacked againts Google traces back to a single adress of the Chinese state. Incredible. Not a surprise, in light of China's relentless espionage and attacks on Western firms, but still shocking.

China is not a reliable trade partner. It is a dictatorship in open non-military warfare with the rest of the world.


The US government is investigating allegations of a Chinese hacking attack on Google amid what Washington called "serious concerns" over internet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/internet) security.
The strike, which the company said was aimed at uncovering information linked to political dissidents in the country, led Google to announce last night that it would no longer censor its search engine in China (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/jan/12/google-china-ends-censors).


The move could result in Google being forced to pull out of China (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/china) four years after it controversially announced its intention to launch a censored version of google.cn (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/jan/25/news.citynews), the local version of its search engine.


Faced with a conflict between one of America's most powerful companies and the Chinese government, the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/hillaryclinton), called on Beijing to discuss the situation.
"We have been briefed by Google on these allegations, which raise very serious concerns and questions," she said. "We look to the Chinese government for an explanation."
Clinton, who is about to begin a tour of Asia and the Pacific, said it was important for businesses and governments around the world to be able to operate online without interference.
"The ability to operate with confidence in cyberspace is critical in a modern society and economy," she said.


Barack Obama has called internet security a "national security priority".


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/jan/13/china-google-hacking-attack-us

[Tellos Athenaios]

Links for those interested in the how: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/14/cyber_assault_followup/, http://siblog.mcafee.com/cto/operation-“aurora”-hit-google-others/

[KukriKhan]

Clinton, who is about to begin a tour of Asia and the Pacific, said it was important for businesses and governments around the world to be able to operate online without interference.


I guess that's now overcome by events, as she's moving to the Haiti relief thingee.


It is a dictatorship in open non-military warfare with the rest of the world.

I think that's true, generally. They're certainly not very adept at hiding their tracks, cyber-wise, or politically.

[al Roumi]

Don Corleone has some personal experience conducting electronics business (or trying to) in China. Maybe he can offer some perspective.

I'll not purport to be a substitiute for a former/inactive Orgah, but I used to work for a UK manufacturer exporting to China. Our marketing strategy included sponsored links on local search engines. In the UK & US that meant Google, in Japan Yahoo and in China Baidu. This was 2 years ago but back then our Chinese employees were of the view that Baidu was bigger (or perhaps, I have to acknowledge, more appropriate) than Google.

Google could have grown in the last couple of years -does anyone know what the latest market share stats are for search engines in China? Or is that also classified by the PRC?

[drone]

Don't forget that Google's customers are not the users, it's the advertisers. So while there are lots of potential eyes for the ads, the ROI from advertising income might not be that high. I am not a bloodsucking toolmarketing exec, but I would imagine that the per-hit rate would be lower in China than the US or Western Europe. Given the large server and bandwidth costs for handling China's population, it might not be worth it when you stick the IP/PR risks on top.

[aimlesswanderer]

I have seen figure that suggest that Google has(had?) anything from 18-30% of the Chinese market. Baidu apparently has pretty much the rest, and they apparently have good 'connections' with the CCP. Given that there are many hurdles (government, regulatory, bribery 'entertainment expenses', etc) for furrin companies operating in China, Google have done well, and that share of a massive and growing market is nothing to scoff at.

[Whacker]

Bah.

I don't believe for one iota of a second that Google is doing this because of human rights or their hollow "do no evil" motto.

Google is a business, and will always look for a profit margin.

As pointed out by others, this turn of events is because of one or both of 1. they are not turning enough or any profit compared with operating costs and 2. pressure from both US and Chinese governments, in the form of national security BS. I have no doubt that Chinese hackers are trying to get in to Google's systems, they've been trying for years and years and years (and sometimes succeeding) to get into US government ones. People don't realize there's a cyber-cold war going on right now, and has been for a few years.

[Skullheadhq]

Google is as twisted as the Chinese government, so I don't understand why they can't be friends.

[The Wizard]

Not impressed. Yahoo had the same high ideals back in the nineties, and look where they are now: helping the Chinese censor and control their Internet.

[Kadagar_AV]

The thing that worries me is that people seriosly believe a big company like google has "do no evil" as a principle, not a marketing slogan strategy....

Get serious guys, when google thought they could cash in from helping China cencor they helped China... When they thought they will lose cash they withdrew.

Case closed.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think people tend to believe that because the google founders hold a controlling interest, while in most companies there is the idea that what is best for the stockholders is what must be done.

[FactionHeir]

An alternative view of how it happened:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/23/schneier.google.hacking/index.html?hpt=T2

And that means that https won't change anything - just a way of making people think they are secure

The comments section there is quite interesting too.

[The Wizard]

Read in the paper today that Google still wants to continue to operate in China and is still showing censured search results, just that they'll provide "different results" in "a while". Yawn. Just like Yahoo, only even more quickly.