Tragedy in Haiti

[Devastatin Dave]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Haiti. Please donate to the Red Cross and other charities.


And Pat Robertson can burn in hell.:no:

[Ronin]

And Rush can join him (http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/i-predicted-conservatives-limbaugh-woul)

[Crazed Rabbit]

A true tragedy.

From the US State Department:

Private Offers of Assistance for Haiti Relief Efforts
Anyone wishing to donate or provide assistance in Haiti following the devastating earthquake that struck near Port au Prince on Jan 12, 2010, is asked to contact the Center for International Disaster Information. The Center, operated under a grant from the United States Agency for International Development's Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance and initial support from IBM, has become a valuable resource to the public, as well as US government agencies, foreign embassies and international corporations. CIDI has established a dedicated page to coordinate Haiti support at: http://www.cidi.org/incident/haiti-10a/

You can also text "HAITI" to "90999" and a donation of $10 will be given automatically to the Red Cross to help with relief efforts, charged to your cell phone bill. Or you can go online to organizations like the Red Cross and Mercy Corps to make a contribution to the disaster relief efforts.

And Ronin - that's a lot different than Mr. Robertson and shaky sourcing.

CR

[Scienter]

And Rush can join him (http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/i-predicted-conservatives-limbaugh-woul)

:furious3: He makes me so mad. I saw a clip of him talking about Haiti on the news tonight. Ugh.

[A Very Super Market]

Poor Haitians. First they get their forests cut up for charcoal, ruining whatever fertility they had, and now this. Although apparently, the poorer quarters were better off, as their shacks were too light to seriously injure someone if they collapsed. Of course, it won't change anything, and Haiti will probably continue to be dirt poor. A sad existence.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Yeah, the worst :daisy: always happens to the poorest wretches... I read a few years ago the Haitian GDP growth ground down to -4% just as a result of a single hurricane. And now this... How can one say there is a God and He controls nature if calamities befall randomly, on anyone, and only where it makes geologic sense?...

:shame:

As for Rush... Him showing some decency and wisdom will only come after after Putin becomes a hippie and apologises to Georgia... He stopped surprising me. The only question is such: Rush or beck - who is worse? Oh, and Palin will soon join. As if Fox had not already gathered the vilest and sauciest blockheads from all of US.

[Hosakawa Tito]

For those who wish to donate to aid the Haitians, beware the inevitable scams that are going to be out there.

[Fragony]

Red Cross can get my donation from the 700k their co makes.

[Cute Wolf]

Nah, everyone in and near the Tropical line seems to get a lot of disasters recently, we have minor flood :furious3:

[KukriKhan]

CNN was first with feet on the ground that I saw, with CBS ABC & NBC borrowing their clips. FOX is off in fantasy land talking elections 8 months away, as of last night.

I hope relief gets there soon. I saw video of a thousand people, sleeping in a park; someone shouted "Water", and they all ran, dropping their meager armful of stuff on the ground, in mob-panic, only to return, empty-handed, 30 minutes later when "Water" proved to be a hoax.

[Vladimir]

So is this a thread about the earthquake in Haiti or people venting their own political rant?

Or another perspective: As terrible as the plague was, didn't it lead to an improvement of life in Europe?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Or another perspective: As terrible as the plague was, didn't it lead to an improvement of life in Europe?
:skull:

Don't count on it :no:

For one, Europe was pretty well off for its time, or at least not lacking the resources. Secondly, it was a once-in-a-several-millennia cataclysm. Anything less rarely spurs people into meaningful action. Even if Haitian wanted to, say, build better buildings, they lack the money and building materials to do so.

[al Roumi]

So is this a thread about the earthquake in Haiti or people venting their own political rant?

Or another perspective: As terrible as the plague was, didn't it lead to an improvement of life in Europe?

er, which plague and how exactly did a plague directly lead to "an improvement of life in europe"???

[Vladimir]

er, which plague and how exactly did a plague directly lead to "an improvement of life in europe"???

This is the Backroom, not the monastery.

Edit: Being an enlightened despot means you never have to explain yourself.

[A Very Super Market]

Less people, more demand, must appease those people with better rights.

But this is Haiti we're talking about. It isn't feudal. They can't grow anything.

[Scienter]

Such a tragedy. Those people had very little and now they have nothing.

[Lemur]

Haiti has one of the longest histories of straight-up sadness. They're some kind of record-holder. They're like Sri Lanka without the Grameen Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grameen_Bank).

There's a (somewhat) local group that was already setting up a clinic in Port-au-Prince, now they're trying to treble the capacity to help the victims. I guess I'll be talking to them later today, see what they need.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If there is a better example of a "failed state" than Haiti, I have yet to see it. Toussaint L'Overture wasn't just the founder, he was the high point. Sadder, in its own way than is the tragedy as a whole.

[Fragony]

Red Cross can get my donation from the 700k their co makes.

scrap that is much much worse then I thought, population is angry and rioting they are building roadblocks with corpses.

[Jolt]

If there is a better example of a "failed state" than Haiti, I have yet to see it. Toussaint L'Overture wasn't just the founder, he was the high point. Sadder, in its own way than is the tragedy as a whole.

Somalia. It fails so hard it doesn't even have a State. I shudder to imagine what would happen if an equal Earthquake hit Somalia. At least in Haiti you can get relief aid there. In Somalia, the world'd be welcomed by Warlord Clans seeking desperatly to remain in control after a natural disaster restricting aid as much as possible to avoid external influences seeping into their domains, religious fanatics hoping to exploit such a tragedy and the incoming relief people so they could then target Westerners for maximum kidnapping and deaths possible, pirates welcoming the great influx of ships in the region to take their slice of the pie, etc.

The end result is that if there was something like what happened in Haiti, in Somalia... Wretched, wretched Somalis.

[Lemur]

If you're interested, this is a pretty decent guide (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=1004) to charities working in Haiti.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Here's another guy for hell - Danny Glover (http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/pact_with_gaia/), actor;

“When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I’m sayin’?”

Perhaps we should let Robertson and Glover fight it out over who's to blame, and why they're punishing Haiti.

CR

[Devastatin Dave]

Did anyone see what Danny Glover said about the crisis? He's as nutty as Rush and Robertson

LOL, the Rabbit beat me to it..

[Vladimir]

Here's another guy for hell - Danny Glover (http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/pact_with_gaia/), actor;

“When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I’m sayin’?”

Perhaps we should let Robertson and Glover fight it out over who's to blame, and why they're punishing Haiti.

CR


Did anyone see what Danny Glover said about the crisis? He's as nutty as Rush and Robertson

LOL, the Rabbit beat me to it..

Most virulent case of Lemur's disease ever. :laugh4:

or: Amid crisis, Lemur's disease spreads to Haiti.

[Strike For The South]

Glover is getting to old for this human excrement

[Lemur]

Well, if we can look past the ramblings of drug-addled radio race-baiters and washed-up Mel Gibson sidekicks, the Red Cross is reporting record-breaking funds pouring in (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/01/15/online.donations.haiti/). That's the good part. Now let's see how quickly they can translate that into action on the ground.

[Devastatin Dave]

Well, if we can look past the ramblings of drug-addled radio race-baiters and washed-up Mel Gibson sidekicks, the Red Cross is reporting record-breaking funds pouring in (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/01/15/online.donations.haiti/). That's the good part. Now let's see how quickly they can translate that into action on the ground.

The biggest issue right now is the deplorable infrastructure, which was almost as bad before the earthquake. Right now many countries are organising centralised dumping stations and spreading supplies by helicoptor. Unfortunately, with the lack of water and medical supplies, we are going to witness more suffering than previously predicted. We must hope that there are not any large aftershocks.

[Devastatin Dave]

I think Lemur you are on to something. The money is good but doesn't amount to crap if its not used properly at a neck breaking speed.

[aimlesswanderer]

Here is the Pat Robertson vid mentioned earlier, love that Christian compassion.
Lovely chap, this Pat Robertson character (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5TE99sAbwM)

[Skullheadhq]

Apparently, the US annexed the Airport, they say it's "US Territory" now :wall:
Them yankees taking every opportunity to annex things :clown:

[Furunculus]

Danny Glover speaks: failure at Copenhagen to blame for Haiti tragedy, not geology -
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100022430/haiti-disaster-caused-by-failure-of-copenhagen-summit-says-actor-danny-glover/

[Fragony]

A hint of light in the darkness http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1243484/Haiti-earthquake-Miracle-baby-plucked-rubble.html?ITO=1490

[Louis VI the Fat]

Apparently, the US annexed the Airport, they say it's "US Territory" now :wall:
Them yankees taking every opportunity to annex things :clown:Do you need to insult the Americans over their desperate effort to save what can be saved? :inquisitive:

America is leading the salvation effort. The evil Yanks reopened the devastated aiport for relief efforts. It is both a great show of decisiveness and skill, and absolutely crucial for opening up Haiti for relief.




PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti – A major obstacle to delivering aid to Haiti began to be cleared Friday, as the U.S. Air Force brought order to the chaotic Port-au-Prince airport.
In another sign of progress, the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson took up position off Haiti's coast and began to fly water and other badly needed supplies to land. Despite these and other advances, hundreds of thousands of Haitians remain stranded in dire conditions.


Earlier, authorities had been forced to turn away aid flights when the large influx of aircraft overwhelmed the facility's small tarmac. But by daybreak, a 115-person Air Force team, which flew in five C-17 cargo planes of communications and air-traffic management equipment overnight, had undone most of the logjam. A steady stream of flights arrived and departed without difficulty even during the pre-dawn hours, the first time the airport was able to accept nighttime flights since the quake.


The Vinson, a nuclear-powered ship with a crew of more than 3,000, is the largest American vessel to reach Haiti since a powerful earthquake Tuesday killed thousands of people and destroyed large swaths of Port-au-Prince, the Haitian capital.
The Vinson and the Air Force team join the rapidly expanding contingent of U.S. troops deployed to Haiti.



More than 3,000 soldiers from the Army's 82nd Infantry Division will be on the ground in Haiti this weekend, and the USS Bataan, an amphibious ship carrying 2,200 Marines, is slated to arrive off the coast of Haiti next week alongside the USNS Comfort, the military's largest medical ship.
Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Friday that up to 10,000 American troops will be operating in or near Haiti by Monday. Adm. Mullen, the nation's top military officer, said the size of the U.S. military commitment could grow even larger in coming days.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703657604575004913901168380.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular

[Crazed Rabbit]

Danny Glover speaks: failure at Copenhagen to blame for Haiti tragedy, not geology -
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100022430/haiti-disaster-caused-by-failure-of-copenhagen-summit-says-actor-danny-glover/

:inquisitive:

Lemur's disease is spreading fast in this thread!

And a big :rolleyes: to Skullhead.

CR

[Lemur]

Reports of movement (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2010808718_apeuredcrosshaiti.html), along with non-stop stories of heartbreaking, mind-numbing sadness.


The International Federation of the Red Cross says a convoy carrying a "huge amount" of aid is heading overland from the Dominican Republic to quake-struck Haiti.

The IFRC says the aid includes a 50-bed field hospital, surgical teams and an emergency telecommunications unit.

[Spokesman Paul Conneally] told The Associated Press by phone from Santo Domingo on Saturday that the convoy is traveling overland because "it's not possible to fly anything into Port-au-Prince right now because the airport is completely congested."

Meanwhile, the drug-addled radio race baiter seems determined to make this tragedy all about him. His latest is suggesting that the White House web page (http://www.whitehouse.gov/HaitiEarthquake) will somehow steal your money when it links you to charities. No, really (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100114/OPINION/100119985).


Justin of Raleigh, North Carolina: "Why does Obama say if you want to donate some money, you could go to whitehouse.gov to direct you how to do so? If I wanted to donate to the Red Cross, why do I have to go to the White House page to donate?"

Limbaugh: "Exactly. Would you trust the money's gonna go to Haiti?"

Justin: "No."

Rush: "But would you trust that your name's gonna end up on a mailing list for the Obama people to start asking you for campaign donations for him and other causes?"

Justin: "Absolutely!"

Limbaugh: "Absolutely!"

I know, I know, don't feed the trolls. But this troll has a following of at least ten million, so ignoring his amoral flame-baiting isn't helpful either.

[Brenus]

The logistic will be immense:
Emergency
Food, Water, shelters, clothes cleaning of the roads and accesses, collect of the corps, inhumation, vaccination, and sanitation.

Just to give an idea:
Daily Need for a person (figures UNWFP/UNHCR)
Wheat: 400 g; feculent 60 g; oil: 30 g, fish/meat/cheese: 40 g; Sugar: 25 g, Salt: 5 g.
Water for drinking, cooking, toilet and washing: 3 l.

Then you add the milk (clean water needed) and the HI-protein Biscuits from babies and pregnants, and the need in blankets, in fire woods, in cooking pots and all boxes which can stock water and rice...

Knowing you have a window of 2 months to collect money and material before it vanish totaly from the news if you lucky to have a good PR...

[Hosakawa Tito]

Security concerns. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn)


Search and rescue must trump security. ... They need to man up and get back in there.
--Retired Army Lt. Gen. Russell Honoré

Man up indeed. Leaving critically injured people because of irrational fears of what? Afraid of poor desperate people? They should have refused to leave.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Meanwhile, the drug-addled radio race baiter seems determined to make this tragedy all about him. His latest is suggesting that the White House web page (http://www.whitehouse.gov/HaitiEarthquake) will somehow steal your money when it links you to charities. No, really (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100114/OPINION/100119985).

I have to agree with Ebert.


Man up indeed. Leaving critically injured people because of irrational fears of what? Afraid of poor desperate people? They should have refused to leave.

Indeed.

CR

[Brenus]

“Man up indeed. Leaving critically injured people because of irrational fears of what? Afraid of poor desperate people? They should have refused to leave.”

From experience, be afraid of desperate people. I can’t judge what happened on the field but I had an experience when providing humanitarian relief was dangerous. Without my driver who just pushed me, a desperate crowd that wanted right now what I was bringing would have at least seriously injured me. And it was not a tragedy of that scale…

When a more than 1000 men and women, fighting for their survival, run to you, you are dead. Hence the importance or logistic and professionalism…

[Hosakawa Tito]

These doctors had no supplies to take. All they had was their knowledge/expertise and ability to improvise treatment as best one can. Desperate rioters might resort to violence over food & water, I don't think they'd react that way over a team of doctors. The U.N. supervisors over-reacted.

[Fragony]

Here I am at my most cynical. none of my money ever got as far as Indonesia at the time, I will just feel good about being sorry for them but charity can find another host.

[Jolt]

Security concerns. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn)



Man up indeed. Leaving critically injured people because of irrational fears of what? Afraid of poor desperate people? They should have refused to leave.


“Man up indeed. Leaving critically injured people because of irrational fears of what? Afraid of poor desperate people? They should have refused to leave.”

From experience, be afraid of desperate people. I can’t judge what happened on the field but I had an experience when providing humanitarian relief was dangerous. Without my driver who just pushed me, a desperate crowd that wanted right now what I was bringing would have at least seriously injured me. And it was not a tragedy of that scale…

When a more than 1000 men and women, fighting for their survival, run to you, you are dead. Hence the importance or logistic and professionalism…

Indeed, there are reports of Haitians using corpses as road-blocks to loot the convoys all for themselves.

Desperation leads to irrational things.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

From experience, be afraid of desperate people. I can’t judge what happened on the field but I had an experience when providing humanitarian relief was dangerous. Without my driver who just pushed me, a desperate crowd that wanted right now what I was bringing would have at least seriously injured me. And it was not a tragedy of that scale…

When a more than 1000 men and women, fighting for their survival, run to you, you are dead. Hence the importance or logistic and professionalism…

I agree. I don't envy the unarmed doctors having to face that down. At least the response has been rapid and apparently helpful, though.

[Devastatin Dave]

Apparently, the US annexed the Airport, they say it's "US Territory" now :wall:
Them yankees taking every opportunity to annex things :clown:

Go find yourself a better thread to insult my country. :yes:

[Brenus]

"I don't think they'd react that way over a team of doctors."
I think they can as a panic/hungry/angry/despaired mob will target any body for every thing.
No. I know they can. I know they did in various occasion....

I had few friends/former colleague killed in Humantarian Work. Don't think Humanitarian Workers are protected because they do good.
And I don't speak about rapes, team of nurses digging they own graves, drivers RPGed etc...

"The U.N. supervisors over-reacted." Were you there to estimate the situation?

[Devastatin Dave]

Go find yourself a better thread to insult my country. :yes:

Gawd, I hate Terminator movies!!!:laugh4:

[Beskar]

Interesting article :laugh4:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/daniel-joseph-macarthur-seal/un-should-relocate-to-haiti

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Interesting article :laugh4:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/daniel-joseph-macarthur-seal/un-should-relocate-to-haiti

Haiti wouldn't benefit. The diplomats don't even pay their parking tickets. Not that Haiti has anyone to issue them.

[Beskar]

Haiti wouldn't benefit. The diplomats don't even pay their parking tickets. Not that Haiti has anyone to issue them.

Though argubly, the UN would pay for them (if they needed to be paid) so it would still benefit the Haiti people.

Though if my memory serves me right, isn't Haiti the place they elected Papa Doc?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Though argubly, the UN would pay for them (if they needed to be paid) so it would still benefit the Haiti people.

They haven't in New York. ~;)

[Brenus]

"They haven't in New York" They haven't in London!!! Parking tickets and congestion charges...:laugh4:

[Skullheadhq]

Some retards in Haiti thought it would be nice to loot and rob people that already have nothing.

[rory_20_uk]

Some retards in Haiti thought it would be nice to loot and rob people that already have nothing.

Hardly novel. residents on New Orleans were doing it on a far greater scale. There's a chance they were trying to, you know, get food to eat?

~:smoking:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"I don't think they'd react that way over a team of doctors."
I think they can as a panic/hungry/angry/despaired mob will target any body for every thing.
No. I know they can. I know they did in various occasion....

I had few friends/former colleague killed in Humantarian Work. Don't think Humanitarian Workers are protected because they do good.
And I don't speak about rapes, team of nurses digging they own graves, drivers RPGed etc...

"The U.N. supervisors over-reacted." Were you there to estimate the situation?

People, when desparate, will do some amazing things. I recall reading Cornelius Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far," wherein a US Army Sergeant, having made a promise to one of his comrades, held a doctor at gun point and forced him, under threat of death, to see to the needs of his comrade first -- irregardless of the doctor's other duties, patients, etc. The story had a happy ending because the head wound was not mortal as most had thought, but desparate people CAN be a threat to doctors -- or anyone -- if they feel the needs of their loved ones are threatened.

Did they OVER-estimate the threat potential here? Quite possibly. Is the security concern baseless? Not at all.

[Vladimir]

US accused of occupying Haiti: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetdaley/100022727/america-is-always-wrong-part-85-us-is-accused-of-occupying-haiti/

I thought about posting a France-bashing post but then I read Louis'. :bow:

Oh, and look at the picture of the author. Scary...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7020908/US-accused-of-occupying-Haiti-as-troops-flood-in.html

[Fragony]

"The death toll is now estimated at up to 200,000 lives. Around three million Haitians – a third of the country's population – have been affected by Tuesday's earthquake and two million require food assistance."

That is beyond any comprehension, and here I am cozy in my apartment and I don't think I even gave it any thought today until now.

[Lemur]

I know what you mean, Frag. It's very hard (impossible?) to wrap your head around that kind of tragedy.

Meanwhile, President 44 has a piece in Newsweek (http://www.newsweek.com/id/231131/output/print) about Haiti, and the freaky thing is that he probably wrote it himself.

[rvg]

Danny Glover speaks: failure at Copenhagen to blame for Haiti tragedy, not geology -
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100022430/haiti-disaster-caused-by-failure-of-copenhagen-summit-says-actor-danny-glover/

In that case I'll blame Baron Samedi.

[Beskar]

US accused of occupying Haiti: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetdaley/100022727/america-is-always-wrong-part-85-us-is-accused-of-occupying-haiti/

I thought about posting a France-bashing post but then I read Louis'. :bow:

Oh, and look at the picture of the author. Scary...


Looks like your typical Right-Wing older female. I am sure Furunculus' wouldn't like you for making such remarks about his mother though.

[Furunculus]

Looks like your typical Right-Wing older female.

what does your typical Right-Wing older female look like? :help:

[Beskar]

Maggie Thatcher.

[Vladimir]

Ann Coulter. She looks old to me. :shrug:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Looks like your typical Right-Wing older female.

When in doubt, attack the author...

[Furunculus]

israelies up to their usual crafty tricks:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/stephaniegutmann/100022827/israel-builds-a-field-hospital-in-haiti-anti-zionists-not-fooled/
Israel builds a field hospital in Haiti. Anti-Zionists not fooled!

Clever people the Jews… oops, I mean the Israelis. Look at the lengths to which they have gone to distract the world from their daily ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. The latest trick is an Israeli field hospital, rushed into Haiti last Friday and erected in a soccer field.

The US, with all its resources, hasn’t yet managed to set up a field hospital in Haiti (undoubtedly the State Department is still drafting the crucial legal papers needed) but the Israelis, operating with their usual disregard to the niceties of law, slapped one up and have already delivered a baby there. The father, obviously paid off by the Mossad, rapturously declared that the baby would be named “Israel”.

According to Israeli government sources the hospital includes 10 tons of medical equipment, 40 doctors, 24 nurses, medics, paramedics, x-ray equipment and personnel, a pharmacy, an emergency room, two surgery rooms, an incubation ward, a children’s ward and a maternity ward.

Information from Israeli government sources should, of course, be taken with a grain of salt, but footage of this tent-city/hospital has now been seen on SKY, Fox and CNN, ABC and CBS and the video seems to confirm (Mossad video fabricators are tricky) at least that the facility is large, clean, and full of modern equipment. CBS’s piece called the hospital the “Rolls Royce of medicine in Haiti”.

Thankfully, the BBC has kept its head and is not colluding with the Israeli government’s attempt to make the world forget its sins. However, that has not stopped Jewish…er…Zionist propagandists, who are already triumphantly calling the field hospital “Israel’s Disproportionate response”, a reference to the charge last year that Israel reacted to Hamas rocket fire with “disproportionate” military force. The word “disproportionate” in this case refers to the fact that this country of 7.5 million has sent 220 people, compared to say, China, which as of last week had sent 60.

Thankfully, many people are onto the ploy, as these comments from the Los Angles Times show:

“Great,” said someone identifying himself as ‘Smart Alex’, “I just hope the IDF soldiers don’t harvest any of the dead Haitians’ organs without the permission of their families.

“I know, I know,” he wrote, “that was a cheap shot. But I believe well-deserved for a country that tries to use its U.S.-funded humanitarian efforts as propaganda to paper over its disastrous and vile treatment of the Palestinians.”

A clever fellow and brave too! It takes guts to make such a deduction and publish it from behind the cover of a moniker like ‘Smart Alex’.

[Vladimir]

That is kinda silly. Who wants organs from Haitians?

[Brenus]

“I thought about posting a France-bashing post but then I read Louis'”
Thanks for the news and the comments. I read some…:dizzy2:

Wouahhh… Some wanted the French to have built an airport when Haiti was a Colony… Colony that rebelled at the start of the XIX century…:laugh4::laugh4:

I pass on the racist comments.

I am happy to see the knowledge of all the contributors.
I am not sure you show the best side of them...

By the way, Médecins Sans Frontières main office is in Paris. Somebody should tell the “journalist”
:oops:

[Meneldil]

“I thought about posting a France-bashing post but then I read Louis'”
Thanks for the news and the comments. I read some…:dizzy2:

Wouahhh… Some wanted the French to have built an airport when Haiti was a Colony… Colony that rebelled at the start of the XIX century…:laugh4::laugh4:

I pass on the racist comments.

I am happy to see the knowledge of all the contributors.
I am not sure you show the best side of them...

By the way, Médecins Sans Frontières main office is in Paris. Somebody should tell the “journalist”
:oops:

To be honest, media bitching about the fact the US took controle of the situation are kind of retard. They have more money, more soldiers, more means, so yeah, they do most of the job. Though I understand the frustration of the people who couldn't land in Haiti, the american-bashing we've been served was completely uncalled for.

(and so is the french bashing you can see on that website).

[Vladimir]

“I thought about posting a France-bashing post but then I read Louis'”
Thanks for the news and the comments. I read some…:dizzy2:

Wouahhh… Some wanted the French to have built an airport when Haiti was a Colony… Colony that rebelled at the start of the XIX century…:laugh4::laugh4:

I pass on the racist comments.

I am happy to see the knowledge of all the contributors.
I am not sure you show the best side of them...

By the way, Médecins Sans Frontières main office is in Paris. Somebody should tell the “journalist”
:oops:

Easy now.

It really doesn't matter where their offices are. That doesn't have any bearing on the statement. It's just a pretentious Frenchman likely harboring fond, idealized, notions of former empire, who is ashamed of his own country's impotence in a former colony. Haiti is one of many dark chapters in the story of imperial France. That is the source of my emotional reaction. Then, to have someone from that same country (Louis) express such kind words, really assuaged my irritation.

Your attention is misplaced; comments are for entertainment value only.

[Devastatin Dave]

To be honest, media bitching about the fact the US took controle of the situation are kind of retard. They have more money, more soldiers, more means, so yeah, they do most of the job. Though I understand the frustration of the people who couldn't land in Haiti, the american-bashing we've been served was completely uncalled for.

(and so is the french bashing you can see on that website).

Besides that, who REALLY is the UN? Who puts in the most money? Who hosts their headquarters? How in the heck do people criticize the US in this? How much has the American tax payer been extorted for all the years in aid to a country that can't even piss in a tin can without some form of gevernment curroption involved? I think those that criticize should take the lead and then we'll see how long it takes before the US is begged to com back into the fold.

[Beskar]

When in doubt, attack the author...

Why so? I didn't know calling some one 'typical right-wing' when they basically have "I am right-wing and proud of it" next to her picture was classified as attacking.

[Brenus]

“Who puts in the most money?”
Apparently not the USA:beam:
“United States debt to the United Nations, in both the regular and peacekeeping budgets, exceeded $1.5 billion at the start of 2009”

[Brenus]

“Your attention is misplaced; comments are for entertainment value only.”
I see your point.
In one hand it is depression by the lack of knowledge, but funny for the same reason…

[Jolt]

Thank god at least here I'm not seeing the disgusting display that I'm seeing in the Paradox OT Forum, with several members saying they don't feel the USA should be helping Haiti, and they don't feel any kind of compassion or pity for 100,000 dead and several millions displaced. Nothing short of little home-made Hitlers that country has.

[Furunculus]

Why so? I didn't know calling some one 'typical right-wing' when they basically have "I am right-wing and proud of it" next to her picture was classified as attacking.

so she looks righ wing because she states she is right wing, do i understand you correctly? :inquisitive:

[Beskar]

so she looks righ wing because she states she is right wing, do i understand you correctly? :inquisitive:

Are you trying to imply there is something wrong with being a right-wing female? So by saying "she looks like a typical right-wing female" when she states she is right-wing, is a bad thing?

It would only be attacking if I said something insulting or untrue.

I will show an alternative which is pretty equal.

Left-Wing Environmentalist's Comments on Latest International Talks.
https://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1301/hippiey.jpg
*Picture of Susan Blogs, Green Party MP.


"Oh, she looks like a typical left-wing green party member."

Would you be up in arms over that comment?

[Fragony]

Thank god at least here I'm not seeing the disgusting display that I'm seeing in the Paradox OT Forum, with several members saying they don't feel the USA should be helping Haiti, and they don't feel any kind of compassion or pity for 100,000 dead and several millions displaced. Nothing short of little home-made Hitlers that country has.

You have to be a particularly big idiot if you can actually manage to not give a crap, or haven't they seen the pictures it's a nightmare :dizzy2:

[al Roumi]

what does your typical Right-Wing older female look like? :help:

A frump? With her face haunted by an expression of fear, loathing and selfish ignorance?

It's not the most flattering image and it's certainly staged, so I think it would be as fair to have a pop at her as it is Brown's "grinace".

She reminds me a little of the Women's Insititute character Maggie Blackamoor (http://littlebritain.wikia.com/wiki/Maggie_Blackamoor) from little Britain.

[Fragony]

Ah, Chavez is once again showing why he should have sticked to hunting tapirs with poisoned darts, how very naughty of you Americans to use your earthquake-weapons (much improved since the seventies) against Haiti. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so, oh screw that it's hilarious.

edit: it gets better, Iran is on shaky grounds

clown

[Beskar]

A frump? With her face haunted by an expression of fear, loathing and selfish ignorance?

It's not the most flattering image and it's certainly staged, so I think it would be as fair to have a pop at her as it is Brown's "grinace".

She reminds me a little of the Women's Insititute character Maggie Blackamoor (http://littlebritain.wikia.com/wiki/Maggie_Blackamoor) from little Britain.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

I think Little Martian, Furunculus, et al, just had a collective heart-attack.

[Fragony]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

I think Little Martian, Furunculus, et al, just had a collective heart-attack.

Considering the possibility of a heart-attack with people you consider to be heartless, see that is why you lose, using oil as energy instead of you running in circles is nothing but an act of mercy when you really think about it.

[Beskar]

Considering the possibility of a heart-attack with people you consider to be heartless, see that is why you lose, using oil as energy instead of you running in circles is nothing but an act of mercy when you really think about it.

Fragony, don't project.

[Fragony]

Fragony, don't project.

What makes you think I think you can think

[Vladimir]

A frump? With her face haunted by an expression of fear, loathing and selfish ignorance?

It's not the most flattering image and it's certainly staged, so I think it would be as fair to have a pop at her as it is Brown's "grinace".

She reminds me a little of the Women's Insititute character Maggie Blackamoor (http://littlebritain.wikia.com/wiki/Maggie_Blackamoor) from little Britain.

They show that on BBCA. Pity I haven't seen an episode in a while.

[al Roumi]

They show that on BBCA. Pity I haven't seen an episode in a while.

Unfortunately they just repeat their sketches with minor vairations ad nauseum, rather like the repetitive drivel published in the Telegraph and Daily mail, one might say.

[al Roumi]

What makes you think I think

There certainly isn't much to support this argument much of the time. ;)

[Furunculus]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

I think Little Martian, Furunculus, et al, just had a collective heart-attack.

you wish. :juggle2:

[KukriKhan]

I know it's page 3. However, I remind all to stay on Topic ("Tragedy in Haiti") and resist the urge for personal attacks.

Thank you. Please carry on. :bow:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ah, I've finally seen the interview with Joyandet.

His remarks seem a bit petty, but nowhere near as controversial as I thought. (The video, around 3:15, here: http://www.joyandet.fr/site/ )

Insignificant remarks over petty turf wars. Meh.

[Strike For The South]

Get the aid to the people who need it.

The fact this has been wrapped up in politics really proves that most of the planet is stupid, petty, and insecure.

[Jolt]

6.1 magnitude aftershock earthquake hits Haiti

A strong earthquake has once again struck Haiti, eight days after a 7.0 magnitude quake left much of the nation in ruins.

The US Geological Survey said the latest tremor had a magnitude of 6.1 and was centered 59 kilometres from the capital Port-au-Prince, which was devastated by the initial quake. It occurred at 06.03 local time (11.03 UTC). There were no immediate reports of damage or injuries from the aftershock, which comes as an international aid effort is underway to help those affected by last week's powerful earthquake.

"People are still very traumatised here," said a reporter for the Al Jazeera news agency who was in Haiti when the aftershock struck. "It's 6.30 in the morning, but people have taken to the streets with whatever belongings they have. A lot of buildings did not collapse in the quake [a week ago] but they have cracks. We do not have any reports of damage yet."

Officials estimate the earthquake killed about 200,000 people and affected three million - about a third of Haiti's population. Haitian authorities said 75,000 have been buried in mass graves.

Survivors have been living in makeshift camps on streets littered with debris and decomposing bodies. Doctors meanwhile are struggling to treat thousands of injured with limited resources.

Another earthquake. Bleh is all I can think of.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I wonder what Limbaugh will say on this second one. Seriously, do most conservatives still listen to him? I mean, if so many of the solid Republicans are the Christian right, he should go down quickly after protesting the aid sent to Haiti, because many, if not most of those evangelical Christians are quite compassionate and support (whether in theory, or more often, in practice) the church missions, tithing, donating to/helping the unfortunate, especially in countries like Haiti. Before, Limbaugh seemed to have been careful not to stray too far from his Religious Right, but now? I see news of him being called a 'shock jock', by reputable news agencies such as BBC (yes, I know the claims of their alleged anti-Americanism).

Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but is he still alive, politically speaking? For a man who was often called the leading and/or most influential conservative in US?

I will take this to another thread, Kukri, if you so wish, :yes: although I do not believe it deserves one...

[Scienter]

the drug-addled radio race baiter

This is one of the best descriptions of Limbaugh I've seen in a while. I might have to steal it for personal use. :beam:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

I think Little Martian, Furunculus, et al, just had a collective heart-attack.

A collective giggle and eye roll, perhaps. I'm glad you acknowledged that we have hearts, though. :2thumbsup:

[Meneldil]

A collective giggle and eye roll, perhaps. I'm glad you acknowledged that we have hearts, though. :2thumbsup:

We all know right wingers are heartless iron men. Stop trying to fool us.

[Prince Cobra]

Poor people... I really start to reconsider the term "misfortune"... I've heard terrible things about the conditions of life there...

The earthquake just worsened the situation and attracted the attention to these people. I really wonder how many countries like this exist/on the verge of disaster and are aside from the public attention... :no: Of course, everything possible should be done to help the people of Haiti... :yes:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Poor people... I really start to reconsider the term "misfortune"... I've heard terrible things about the conditions of life there...

The earthquake just worsened the situation and attracted the attention to these people.Few people ever die from natural disasters. Casualty rates of disasters are overwhelmingly determined by human variables. This same earthquake would've been a minor disaster with a few thousand casualties if it had happened in, say, Japan.

There is very little 'misfortune' about any of this.



I really wonder how many countries like this exist/on the verge of disaster and are aside from the public attention... :no: Misery is quantifiable. One of the measurements is the Human Development Index. This would suggest 33 countries are more miserable than Haíti. With few exceptions, all located in Sub-Sahara Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index


Haïti is not far off the radar in Washington and Paris. There has been intense foreign political involvement for the past fifteen years. (Or, if one wants, for the last century, or since the very beginning)
Even before the earthquake, there were more foreign troops per capita in Haïti than in Afghanistan. The country is a virtual mandate territory.

In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti. Politically unfeasable, but by any practical measure, a blessing.

Compare in this regard, if you wish, on the HDI, Haïti with the French Caribbean colonies that did not became independent: Guadeloupe, Martinique, Guyana. These have a development of the level of Portugal, Czech Republic, Kuwait.
These former colonies receive political stability plus an endless transfer of funds(:bigcry:) from Metropolitan France. Otherwise they differ very little in demography, geography or history from Haïti.

[Lemur]

In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti. Politically unfeasable, but by any practical measure, a blessing.
Yeah, 'cause we aren't doing enough nation-building in Afghanistan and Iraq. What we really need is another basket-case zombie country which we will try to normalize. Yikes.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yank imperialist Yank weakling.

France shall now proceed to berate America for not militarily occupying Haíti.

[Lemur]

Louis, I'm very sorry we're letting you down, but imperialism just doesn't pay when you can't enslave, rape and pillage the natives. And rebuilding Haiti from the ground up into something about as prosperous as, say, Puerto Rico would make Germany's re-absorption of East Germany look like a minor expense.

[A Very Super Market]

It's all Napoleon's fault.

[Brenus]

“In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti.”
Louis, President Woodrow Wilson tried it before.

Between 1911 and 1915 seven Haitian presidents were assassinated and in 1914 the USA “remove” $ 500,000 for safe keeping from the Haitian Central bank

Wilson sent the United States Marines into Haiti to restore order and maintain political and economic stability in the Caribbean after the assassination of the Haitian President in July of 1915.

Then following the 1915 elections (some say manipulated), the Wilson Administration attempted to strong-arm the Haitian legislature into adopting a new constitution in 1917. This constitution allowed foreign land ownership, which had been outlawed since the Haitian Revolution as a way to prevent foreign control of the country
Racial discrimination, abuse of powers and forced labour stated a peasant revolt from 1919-1920.
In 1929, a series of strikes and uprisings led the United States to begin withdrawal from Haiti

The occupation continued until 1934.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Yeah, but even more spectacularly, Cuba offered to sell itself to US. Which one should have US taken, if given a choice between the two? Obviously Cuba is a superb investment, clearly superior to Haiti, but I am talking about the hypothetical moral (because morality is purely hypothetical in itself xP) perspective. Buying Cuba, or occupying Haiti?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Dawkins: retribution for sin is the central dogma of Christianity. Robertson, far from being a fringe lunatic, was right, at least, accepting of the central tenet of Christianity.


We know what caused the catastrophe in Haiti. It was the bumping and grinding of the Caribbean Plate rubbing up against the North American Plate: a force of nature, sin-free and indifferent to sin, unpremeditated, unmotivated, supremely unconcerned with human affairs or human misery.
The religious mind, however, hubristically appropriates the blind happenings of physics for petty moralistic purposes. As with the Indonesian tsunami, which was blamed on loose sexual morals in tourist nightclubs; as with Hurricane Katrina, which was attributed to divine revenge on the entire city of New Orleans for organising a gay rally; and as with other disasters going back to the famous Lisbon earthquake and beyond, so Haiti’s tragedy must be payback for human “sin”.


The Rev Pat Robertson, infamous American televangelist, sees the hand of God in the earthquake, wreaking terrible retribution for a 1791 pact that the Haitians made with the Devil, to help to rid them of their French masters. 1791? Ah, but don’t forget “I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me”.
Needless to say, milder-mannered faith-heads fell over themselves to disown Robertson, just as they disowned those other pastors, evangelists, missionaries and mullahs at the time of the earlier disasters.


What hypocrisy. Loathsome as Robertson’s views undoubtedly are, he is the Christian who stands squarely in the Christian tradition. The agonised theodiceans who see suffering as an intractable “mystery”, or who see God in the help, money and goodwill that is now flooding into Haiti, or (most nauseating of all) who claim to see God “suffering on the cross” in the ruins of Port-au-Prince, those faux-anguished hypocrites are denying the centrepiece of their own theology. It is the obnoxious Pat Robertson who is the true Christian here.
Where was God in Noah’s flood? He was systematically drowning the entire world, animal as well as human, as punishment for “sin”. Where was God when Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed with fire and brimstone? He was deliberately barbecuing the citizenry, lock, stock and barrel, as punishment for “sin”.


“Oh but that’s the Old Testament. No one believes those stories literally any more. The New Testament is all about love.” Dear modern, enlightened, theologically sophisticated, gentle Christian, you cannot be serious. Your entire religion is founded on an obsession with “sin”, with punishment and with atonement. Where do you find the effrontery to condemn Pat Robertson, you who have signed up to the odious doctrine that the central purpose of Jesus’s incarnation was to have himself tortured as a scapegoat for the “sins” of all mankind, past, present and future, beginning with the “sin” of Adam, who (as any modern theologian well knows) never even existed?


Yes, I know you hate the word “scapegoat” (with good reason, because it is a barbaric idea) but what other word would you use? The only respect in which “scapegoat” falls short as a perfect epitome of Christian theology is that the Christian atonement is even more unpleasant. The goat of Jewish tradition was merely driven into the wilderness with its cargo of symbolic sin. Jesus was supposedly tortured and executed to atone for sins that, any rational person might protest, he had it in his power simply to forgive, without the agony. Among all the ideas ever to occur to a nasty human mind (Paul’s of course), the Christian “atonement” would win a prize for pointless futility as well as moral depravity.
Even without the stark heartlessness of Pat Robertson, tragedies like Haiti are meat and drink to the theological mind. To quote the president of one theological seminary, writing in the On Faith blog of the Washington Post: “The earthquake in Haiti, like every other earthly disaster, reminds us that creation groans under the weight of sin and the judgment of God. This is true for every cell in our bodies, even as it is for the crust of the earth at every point on the globe.”


You nice, middle-of-the-road theologians and clergymen, be-frocked and bleating in your pulpits, you disclaim Pat Robertson's suggestion that the Haitians are paying for a pact with the Devil. But you worship a god-man who — as you tell your congregations, even if you don’t believe it yourself — “cast out devils”. You even believe (or you don’t disabuse your flock when they believe) that Jesus cured a madman by causing the “devils” in him to fly into a herd of pigs and stampede them over a cliff. Charming story, well calculated to uplift and inspire the Sunday School and the Infant Bible Class.
Robertson may spout evil nonsense, but he is a mere amateur at that game. Just read your own New Testament. Pat Robertson is true to it. But you?


Educated apologist, how dare you weep Christian tears, when your entire theology is one long celebration of suffering: suffering as payback for “sin” — or suffering as “atonement” for it? You may weep for Haiti where Pat Robertson does not, but at least, in his hick, sub-Palinesque ignorance, he holds up an honest mirror to the ugliness of Christian theology. You are nothing but a whited sepulchre.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7007065.ece

What is the difference between telling Haitians they suffer for their sins, and telling a child he suffers for his sins?

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah, occupy Haiti. Poor black people can't handle independance, and they need European domination. It's for their own good.

Another option: stay in Europe where you friggin belong. :yes:

[Major Robert Dump]

Funny Lemur mentioned zombies.

Makes me wonder what has happened to all those zombie slaves in Haiti, and if all the vulnerable people will make good targets for zombie initiates.

[A Very Super Market]

Yeah, occupy Haiti. Poor black people can't handle independance, and they need European domination. It's for their own good.

Another option: stay in Europe where you friggin belong. :yes:

They truly cannot, though it doesn't have anything to do with being black. The Yugoslav states didn't do too well either.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yeah, occupy Haiti. Poor black people can't handle independance, and they need European domination. It's for their own good.

Another option: stay in Europe where you friggin belong. :yes:

America isn't part of Europe. :inquisitive:

The Economist suggests setting up an extra-governmental foreign authority:

Fortunately there is a blueprint, drawn up by Haiti’s government and presented to donors last year. It calls for investment to be targeted on infrastructure, basic services and combating soil erosion to make farmers more productive and the country less vulnerable to hurricanes. The pressing question is who should do it and how. Haiti’s government is in no position to take charge, yet the country needs a strong government to put it to rights. Paul Collier, a development economist who worked on the plan, reckons that the answer is to set up a temporary development authority with wide powers to act.

Given the local vacuum of power, this is the best idea around. The authority should be set up under the auspices of the UN or of an ad hoc group (the United States, Canada, the European Union and Brazil, for example). It should be led by a suitable outsider (Bill Clinton, who is the UN’s special envoy for Haiti, would be ideal, perhaps to be followed by Brazil’s Lula after he steps down as president in a year’s time) and a prominent Haitian, such as the prime minister. To provide services, it should work with aid groups.

Some will object that this would undermine a democratically elected government. But there is not much left to undermine. Done well, it could create a state in Haiti able to do more than preside over chaos and corruption. Otherwise the suffering of the past ten days risks being repeated.

Gah.

CR

[Seamus Fermanagh]

“In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti.”
Louis, President Woodrow Wilson tried it before.

Between 1911 and 1915 seven Haitian presidents were assassinated and in 1914 the USA “remove” $ 500,000 for safe keeping from the Haitian Central bank

True, though you forget to mention that the money was eventually returned -- with proper interest -- during the resumption of Haitian control over their Central Bank.


Wilson sent the United States Marines into Haiti to restore order and maintain political and economic stability in the Caribbean after the assassination of the Haitian President in July of 1915.

The USMC, and the USMC-officered Garde Haiti which did most of the lifting thereafter, broke the back of the incessant "caco" rebellions and established the closest thing to true stability that Haiti experienced since rebelling from France.


Then following the 1915 elections (some say manipulated), the Wilson Administration attempted to strong-arm the Haitian legislature into adopting a new constitution in 1917. This constitution allowed foreign land ownership, which had been outlawed since the Haitian Revolution as a way to prevent foreign control of the country
Racial discrimination, abuse of powers and forced labour stated a peasant revolt from 1919-1920.

Yes, we ran a very smooth and fair election....but rigged the candidates going in to get the leader we wanted. The Legislaure -- which really represented the Mulatto oligarch families -- six families owned much of Haiti's economy -- didn't like the idea of foreign owned (and efficient) companies urinating in their soup. Trying to portray this legislature as truly "representative" -- especially of the noirs -- would be a stretch. Their opposition was hardly surprising.


In 1929, a series of strikes and uprisings led the United States to begin withdrawal from Haiti. The occupation continued until 1934.

US Domestic politics and public opinion had more to do with Hoover opting out. The Hoover admin had enough on its plate without the media writing stories about abuses in Haiti (of which there were few, but even a few is too many). They wanted to go back to "dollar diplomacy" instead.

Interestingly, for all of the commentary on the USMC waging wars for United Fruit, US interventions in the Caribean and C.A. tended to occur where little US or British investment had been made. Even afterwards, the scope of US investment in these countries did not increase by orders of magnitude. Cuba, on the other hand, we put a lot of money into and then Didn't take control even when it was offered.

[Megas Methuselah]

America isn't part of Europe. :inquisitive:


It was aimed the frenchman, actually (in spite of the fact that he argued for USA intervention. Whites are euros, too, but that's another matter entirely).

[Louis VI the Fat]

Aimed at me? Me, I'm not European. My ancestors are Middle Easterners, who genocided the European males and took their wives*. Europeans you'll find in the Basque area.

Rather, some of my ancestors are. Because these Middle Easterners, including the Basques, were swept away by the next tide. Coming from the Central Asian plains, they tamed the horse and destroyed all before them as they spread theor genes and Indo-European language from the British Isles to India.

In other words, get over it. There are Turks in Southeast Europe. Tatars right next to Moscow. Magyars in the heart of Europe. After two hundred, five hundred years, thousand years, nobody is calling for them to 'go back where they belong in Asia'.
The colonisation of Spain by the Moors left it as mixed as Spanish colonisation of Mexico left that country mixed.

Such is history.

*Or so does recent DNA investigation of the spread of agriculture in Europe suggest.

[Fragony]

Don't ask me how he did it http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/02/08/haiti.rescue/index.html

I bucket of water in the ocean considering the scope of this tragedy, but still.