Alexander in Kevlar....

[Drewski]

Laminated Linen Armor (http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/linothorax-alexander-great-armor.html)

May be of interest to some of you.....

P.S. Remember I didn't write it , just linking to it, so don't shoot the messanger ;)

[antisocialmunky]

Another one of EB's predictions comes true[/jk]

But seriously, everyone who knows anything about this period knows about this stuff.

[SwissBarbar]

Yeah, the oracle of Delphi is a rookie compared to the EB-Team

[Weebeast]

I was under the impression that a megalomaniac such as Alexander would've had LS made personally for him instead of this LL non-sense.

[bobbin]

It seems a bit of a non discovery, it's like saying after exstensive reasearch I've "discovered" that the romans used swords!

[Skullheadhq]

and saying after intensive research "Hey guys, I discovered Stalin had a weird mustache ZOMG!"

[bobbin]

and that he spoke russian!

[Skullheadhq]

THAT'S WHAT I CALL A BREAKTHROUGH! :laugh4:

[Gustave]

Bah ! It's still instructive for those who never heard about linothorax :yes:.

[Skullheadhq]

Presented at the annual meeting of the Archaeological Institute of America in Anaheim, Calif., the study suggests that Alexander and his soldiers protected themselves with linothorax, a type of body armor made by laminating together layers of linen.

...have achieved some very convincing results...

Sherman told Discovery News.
They made it sound like they found out that Alexander used Linothorax, which is simply not true, very unprofesional.

[alexanderthegreater]

Nothing new, but interesting article nonetheless. Wasn't the flexibility of the material one of the things that gave such great protection against arrow (ie "bending in" absorbing the shock of the arrow)
That wouldnt have been great in melee though since the force behind a sword/spear is constant (people keep pushing it) and would break through.
Could we speculate that linen armor was the tool for the task in the archer-happy east that Alexander fought in?
Wouldnt be as bad in the hot climate as bronze armor as well.

[bobbin]

No it's the layered nature that makes it so effective, the layers of linen dissapate energy much more effectively than a hard shell of metal. Modern composite armours work on a similar principle

[ARCHIPPOS]

ermmmmm, i thought i read somewhere (but can't remember where) that chinese used silk and hardpaper armours in a similar way...

[bobbin]

I've heard of silk being used as a undergarment to reduce the damage of arrow wounds, because of its high tensile strength it doesn't tear easliy when struck by a arrow and so is pushed into the body with the arrowhead, this allowed the arrow to be extracted much easier that would normally be the case (in ancient times it was not uncommon to actually push the arrow straight through to the other side as pulling it back out was so tricky).

[A Very Super Market]

Pushing an arrow straight through would only be a good idea if it got stuck in your arm or something. And even then, why would you do more damage to your own body? After the battle, there would be more than enough time for careful surgery.

[bobbin]

Because the shape of the arrowhead is designed so that if you try to pull it out the way it came in you could end up causing far more damage and risk the head coming off. Such a method would only have been used if the thing was really deep (and the victim was relatively unimportant) or in a limb.

Also leaving it in would be very dangerous as any movement could lead to further injury, most couldn't wait until after the battle.

[Drewski]

I was most interested in the fact, that they'd actually made some Linothorax, to as accurate as anyone's best guess (since absolutely no-one has actually seen any), and the fact that it was very effective indeed.

The tone of the article is very much in the "holy s&*^, this stuff really is good" vein. I suppose we can blame the generally deeply indoctrinated "progress in history is linear" attitude, drilled into Academics from an early age. Which of course just isn't true. Folks have always been very creative when it came to warfare especially.

There just tends to be this "mouth hanging open- face looking amazed" attitude, when it's `discovered` that people 2500+ yrs ago, had what seems a modern idea in a relevant field.

Shouldn't be :).....I'd still love to see this Ancient Kevlar actually performing in tests though...

[ziegenpeter]

Ohhh, man! Iread this thread when no one had answered yet and wondered, what this was all about. But now I see that this is like when I was a little kid and was convinced that I inveted breathing...

[A Very Super Market]

Because the shape of the arrowhead is designed so that if you try to pull it out the way it came in you could end up causing far more damage and risk the head coming off. Such a method would only have been used if the thing was really deep (and the victim was relatively unimportant) or in a limb.

Also leaving it in would be very dangerous as any movement could lead to further injury, most couldn't wait until after the battle.

And most died, as carelessly removing foreign objects from your body wasn't good for your health. Whether you pulled it out or pushed it through.

It isn't as if you could fight properly with a big hole in your muscle anyways.

[antisocialmunky]

Well there are instruments to extract arrow heads but they are just as likely to make it worse.

[seienchin]

Come on. As good as the linothorax probably(We probably never know 100%) was, there is a reason why it was replaced by chainmail.
I thinkt the biggest problem of history is that it is a science.
Science has to move on, has to progress or it is thought useless so historian have to find something new and exciting and provocant every week.
Just imagine the Linothorax beeing slightley inferior to the chainmail, nobody would care.
Just imagine the nomad tribes of the east were dangerous, but not the supermans they are in EB, or think about indian or caucasian bows beeing only slightly better than syrian ones. Nobody would be interested in them. Which was the in fact the way it has been. But because historians have to pull up something knew every second. Boom they are all great. Until someone prooves otherwise and historians justified there work another time.
Anyway of course modern history has a lot new interesting aspects, but we shoudnt believe everything and linothorax beeing close to kevlar is way too far stretched. If you think about layer techonology toilet paper is like kevlar ot the linothorax :laugh4:

Anyway maybe my sources about the linothorax arent sufficient. If anybody could provide me with a link to actual linothorax testing Id be nice :egypt:

[antisocialmunky]

Linothorax did not work in the rain very well. It could get water logged and fall apart since it was laminated with glue. It was definitely cheaper and probably cost effective however. Those are hte top of my head. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did anyone else use laminated clothe armor?

[Skullheadhq]

Linothorax did not work in the rain very well.
Small chance of rain in the Persian desert :laugh4:

[ARCHIPPOS]

I dunno ... although i'm sure Linothorax was certainly very effective,more light-weight and less costly than normal metal cuirass there is always the psychological factor to keep in mind. Normal metal armor (breastplates,cuirass,chainmail) make you "feel safe". Another problem could be production.Chainmal or laminated armour can be worked and mass-produced in a typical village blacksmith. Perhaps linothoraxes represented a technologic evolution that demanded very specialised labour and could not be so easily produced...

[Olaf The Great]

Normal metal armor (breastplates,cuirass,chainmail) I would feel perfectly safe with a pair of fur pants or a kilt and a giant axe, but that's me.

[ARCHIPPOS]

I would feel perfectly safe with a pair of fur pants or a kilt and a giant axe, but that's me.

hahaha i dunno man ... i'm terrified of doing full-contact kickboxing with no protective gear,i imagine i'ld be even more so stepping into a life-threatening battle without some decent equipment :yes:

[satalexton]

then you shall make a horrible gaesatae