Female Characters

[Imperator Invictus]

I think that it would be nice to have family members female characters to command battles and to govern cities (something like Xena), maybe for EB II the team will consider this...

[Paltmull]

Oh dear

[Salahedin]

why not? I'd love to see some amazons again, they were quite pretty in Rome vanilla ^^
and historicaly, Boudica for the celts, Cleopatra for the Ptolemaioi and Zeinobia for... uh rebels? are goog examples, though Boudica and Zeinobia are out of the game timeline (60AD and 240AD). Surely there are more.

[Moros]

Zenobia wasn't the only arabian 'warrior-princess'.

[Subotan]

While we're at it, we should mod in a realistic economic model, make the AI act smart in diplomacy, and give every unit the option to upgrade into Lorica Segmentata.

[A Very Super Market]

Portraits are randomnly assigned, so you'll get Julias with facial hair and bald spots. Besides, there is no point in doing so.

[mountaingoat]

While we're at it, we should mod in a realistic economic model, make the AI act smart in diplomacy

that kind of thinking would get you fired from CA.



and give every unit the option to upgrade into Lorica Segmentata.

this might get you promoted though :2thumbsup:

[Imperator Invictus]

Arsinoe II (Greek: Ἀρσινόη, 316 BC-July 270 BC), was queen of Thrace, Asia Minor and Macedonia as wife of King Lysimachus (Greek: Λυσίμαχος), and later co-ruler of Egypt with her brother and husband Ptolemy II Philadelphus (Greek: Πτολεμαῖος Φιλάδελφος, which means "Ptolemy the sibling-loving"). She was the daughter of king Ptolemy I Soter (Greek: Πτολεμαίος Σωτήρ, which means "Ptolemy the Savior"), the founder of the Hellenistic state of Egypt, and his second wife Berenice I.

Arsinoe, at the age of 15, married the King Lysimachus to whom she bore three sons, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Philip. In order to position her sons for the throne, she had Lysimachus's first son, Agathocles, poisoned on account of treason. After Lysimachus' death in battle in 281 BC, she fled to Cassandrea (Greek: Κασσάνδρεια) and married her half-brother Ptolemy Keraunos, son of Ptolemy I from his first wife, Euridice. The marriage was for political reasons as they both claimed the throne of Macedonia / Thrace (by the time of his death Lysimachus was ruler of both regions, and his power extended to south Greece and Asia Minor as well). Their relationship was never good. As Ptolemy Keraunos was becoming more powerful, she decided it was time to stop him and conspired against him with her sons. This action caused Ptolemy Keraunus to kill two of her sons, Lysimachus and Philip, while the eldest, Ptolemy, was able to escape and to flee north, to the kingdom of the Dardanians. She herself went to Alexandria, Egypt to seek protection from her brother, Ptolemy II Philadelphus.

In Egypt, she continued her intrigues and probably instigated the accusation and exile of her brother Ptolemy II's first wife, Arsinoe I of Egypt. Arsinoe II then married her brother; as a result, both were given the epithet "Philadelphoi" (Greek: Φιλάδελφοι "Sibling-loving (plural)") by the presumably scandalized Greeks. Arsinoe II shared all of her brother's titles and apparently was quite influential, having towns dedicated to her, her own cult (as was Egyptian custom), and appearing on coinage. Apparently, she contributed greatly to foreign policy, including Ptolemy's victory in the First Syrian War (274-271 BC) between Egypt and the Seleucid Empire in the Middle East. After her death, Ptolemy II continued to refer to her on official documents, as well as supporting her coinage and cult. He also established her worship as a Goddess, a clever move, because by doing this he established also his own worship as a God.

=================================================

Cleopatra VII Philopator (in Greek, Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ; (January 69 BC – August 12, 30 BC) was the last effective pharaoh of Egypt's Ptolemaic dynasty. She originally shared power with her father Ptolemy XII Auletes and later with her brothers Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV, whom she also married, but eventually gained sole rule. As pharaoh, she consummated a liaison with Gaius Julius Caesar that solidified her grip on the throne. She later elevated her son with Caesar, Caesarion, to co-ruler in name.

After Caesar's assassination in 44 BC, she aligned with Mark Antony in opposition to Caesar's legal heir Gaius Julius Caesar Octavian (later known as Augustus). With Antony she bore the twins Cleopatra Selene II and Alexander Helios, and another son, Ptolemy Philadelphus. Her successive unions with her brothers produced no children. After losing the Battle of Actium to Octavian's forces, Antony committed suicide. Cleopatra soon followed suit, according to tradition killing herself by means of an asp bite on August 12, 30 BC.[1] She was briefly outlived by Caesarion, who was declared pharaoh, but he was soon killed on Octavian's orders. Egypt became the Roman province of Aegyptus.

=================================================

Zenobia (240 - after 274) was a 3rd century Syrian queen of the Palmyrene Empire, who led a famous revolt against the Roman Empire.

The second wife of King Septimius Odaenathus, Zenobia became queen of the Palmyrene empire following Odaenathus' death in 267. By 269, Zenobia had expanded the empire, conquering Egypt and expelling the Roman prefect, Tenagino Probus, who was beheaded after he led an attempt to recapture the territory. She ruled over Egypt until 274, when she was defeated and taken as a hostage to Rome by Emperor Aurelian.

Zenobia is said to have worn golden chains in Aurelian's military triumph parade in Rome. There are multiple alternative accounts of Zenobia's death -- including illness, hunger strike or beheading. Under the most upbeat version, Aurelian was so impressed by Zenobia that he freed her, granting her an elegant villa in Tibur (modern Tivoli, Italy) where she became a prominent philosopher, socialite and Roman matron.

=================================================

Tomyris, from the Persian تهم#رییش Tahm-Rayiš,[1] was a queen who reigned over the Massagetae, an Iranic people of Central Asia east of the Caspian Sea, at approximately 530 B.C.

The Greek historians recorded that she "defeated and killed" the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great during his invasion and attempted conquest of her country. Herodotus, who lived from approximately 484 B.C. to 425 B.C., is the earliest of the classical writers to give an account of her career, writing almost one hundred years later. Her history was well known and became legendary.

=================================================

Esther (Hebrew: אֶסְתֵּר, Modern Ester Tiberian ʔɛster), born Hadassah, is the eponymous heroine of the Biblical Book of Esther. She was a Jewish queen of the Persian king Ahasuerus (traditionally identified with Xerxes I). Her story is the basis for the celebration of Purim in Jewish tradition.

http://www.howarddavidjohnson.com/legendary-women.htm

[Hax]

You don't have to post everything in a seperate post.

I'm not trying to be a sexist pig, but seriously though, most of the Hellenic cultures really were a man's world. Influential wives might be shown through ancillaries and traits.

[A Very Super Market]

Portraits are randomly assigned, so you'll get Julias with facial hair and bald spots. .

Since there wouldn't be any difference between them and a normal general, why bother?

[antisocialmunky]

Tomyris, from the Persian تهم#رییش Tahm-Rayiš,[1] was a queen who reigned over the Massagetae, an Iranic people of Central Asia east of the Caspian Sea, at approximately 530 B.C.

The Greek historians recorded that she "defeated and killed" the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great during his invasion and attempted conquest of her country. Herodotus, who lived from approximately 484 B.C. to 425 B.C., is the earliest of the classical writers to give an account of her career, writing almost one hundred years later. Her history was well known and became legendary.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/tomyris.html :laugh4: (probably NSFW - language)


Funny what you get in google searches. But yeah, few and far between female rulers were but totally awesome they were.

[Subotan]

that kind of thinking would get you fired from CA.

Curse my confounded desire for realism.


this might get you promoted though :2thumbsup:

Hooray! Urban Cohorts for everyone!

[Browning]

All this tells us that female leaders were an exception these times.

[Rahwana]

Unless you want your army filled with hysteric women screaming behind your lines just like the Vanilla Sweboz.... I love to see how my Naked Fanatics treat them... :clown:

[bobbin]

The main reason why it can't be done is because the game veiws every general as male (or more correctly as one gender) and this can't be changed, try to put in female names and portraits and you will get problems like those AVSM mentioned, it doesn't matter how historical it would be it just can't be done correctly.

[Macilrille]

Hooray! Urban Cohorts for everyone!


Oh noes!! I much rather want Gladiators and Ninjas :-(

[Subotan]

Oh noes!! I much rather want Gladiators and Ninjas :-(

Well, okay, but only as long as we can have Headhurlers.

Or you could just RP that your general is female, especially if the name is unisexs, and he/she looks a bit andorgynous.

[SwissBarbar]

Unless you want your army filled with hysteric women screaming behind your lines just like the Vanilla Sweboz.... I love to see how my Naked Fanatics treat them... :clown:

Lol. This would attribute a complete new meaning to the term "spearman" :laugh4:

[Ludens]

:focus:


http://www.badassoftheweek.com/tomyris.html :laugh4:

:inquisitive:

[Skullheadhq]

They tell a story about persians and then show an image form 300, don't go ther, you can't unsee it.

[antisocialmunky]

You probably should censor the language...

But yes you find interesting things when googling.

[Satyros]

why not? I'd love to see some amazons again, they were quite pretty in Rome vanilla ^^
and historicaly, Boudica for the celts, Cleopatra for the Ptolemaioi and Zeinobia for... uh rebels? are goog examples, though Boudica and Zeinobia are out of the game timeline (60AD and 240AD). Surely there are more.

Were there amazons in Vanilla Rome ?

I'm so glad and thankful for forgetting stuff sometimes ....

[Cute Wolf]

Please no.... because as far as I know, every woman who dress up as a general / warriors, won't have "sexy breast shaped" cuirass as their armour, but standard muscled armour, the same which men also worn. And their face will be completely covered in Thrakian / Montefortino / Anything else helmets, and we can bet their feminine traits will be mostly hidden. Not to count that at this era, no shampoo for their hairs, and men also grow long, coarse hair like them, so they are mostly indifferentiable from unbearded and unmoustached men when clad in heavy armour. You then could always pretend (if want to do it in roleplay), just like the trait of "secretly female" in catholic priest line at M2TW.

[Subotan]

You probably should censor the language...

But yes you find interesting things when googling.
I thought it was pretty funny.

Were there amazons in Vanilla Rome ?

I'm so glad and thankful for forgetting stuff sometimes ....
Yep, in Hyperboria.

Please no.... because as far as I know, every woman who dress up as a general / warriors, won't have "sexy breast shaped" cuirass as their armour,.

Of course not. I've seen examples which lack that curiass. On this very forum in fact.

[lionhard]

BOUDICA FTW!!!!!

lmao wat a joke topic

[antisocialmunky]

To be quite honest Boudica < Zenobia < Cleopatra < Tomyris in terms of success...

[Subotan]

To be quite honest Boudica < Zenobia < Cleopatra < Tomyris in terms of success...

Ahem.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/EleanorAkvitanie1068.jpg

<3

[Brennus]

I have recently finished a paper on the role of Celtic women during this period and based on my research there is no reason why women could not play a dominant political role in Celtic society, even to the extent of leading in battle e.g. Boudicca, Medb, Cartimandua, the Vix Princess (Halstatt I know but the point still stands).

[Horatius]

I have recently finished a paper on the role of Celtic women during this period and based on my research there is no reason why women could not play a dominant political role in Celtic society, even to the extent of leading in battle e.g. Boudicca, Medb, Cartimandua, the Vix Princess (Halstatt I know but the point still stands).

Every society has exceptions, the Rennaisance era had Queen Catherine de Medici, Joan of Arc, Queen Elizabeth, Dark Ages outnumber virtually every society in terms of warrior women thanks to the warladies of the Franks.

But the question of was it socially normal I think should be decisive.

I would love to think these ancient societies had equality, but the women you mention seem to have been an exception, like Livia, or the mother of Coriolanus (forgot her name) or Cloelia.

Even the Greeks had large numbers of powerful women (more so then one would think) but wouldn't depicting women equally in game give a very ahistorical impression of woman's liberation?

That said some ancient societies did give women remarkable degrees of rights, a few even made the husband legally a nobody in relationship to his wife, but for female emancipation that is something I know is a product of the later 19th and early 20th centuries, unfortunately not earlier.

Add to this problem a simple gameplay problem, wives, all of these powerful women were wives, Boudicca (one of your examples) was a widow (and not incharge while her husband lived) who only came to power because of an emergency where leadership and charisma rather then social place was decisive. Is it physically possible to change the way wife mechanics work ingame?

Don't get me wrong I would love to see some female characters, I even suggested spies and assasins.

[antisocialmunky]

Ahem.
<3

Congratulations, you posted a picture of someone who has nothing to do with the Classical Period.

[Subotan]

Point being?

[antisocialmunky]

The implication of your post was that I purposely left out someone who shouldn't have when they wouldn't have been included anyway. :-p

[Brennus]

I would love to think these ancient societies had equality, but the women you mention seem to have been an exception, like Livia, or the mother of Coriolanus (forgot her name) or Cloelia.


Very true

[Subotan]

Didn't the Pythagoreans think that the very worst thing to be reincarnated as was a woman?

[jirisys]

Unless you want your army filled with hysteric women screaming behind your lines just like the Vanilla Sweboz.... I love to see how my Naked Fanatics treat them... :clown:

First rule of Gallic warfare, naked fanatics never, NEVER go behind another cohort, unless it's a mercenary amazon from the vanilla sweboz :wink3::devilish::tongue2::wink2::fainting:

[jirisys]

Please no.... because as far as I know, every woman who dress up as a general / warriors, won't have "sexy breast shaped" cuirass as their armour, but standard muscled armour, the same which men also worn. And their face will be completely covered in Thrakian / Montefortino / Anything else helmets, and we can bet their feminine traits will be mostly hidden. Not to count that at this era, no shampoo for their hairs, and men also grow long, coarse hair like them, so they are mostly indifferentiable from unbearded and unmoustached men when clad in heavy armour. You then could always pretend (if want to do it in roleplay), just like the trait of "secretly female" in catholic priest line at M2TW.


I thought it was pretty funny.

Yep, in Hyperboria.


Of course not. I've seen examples which lack that curiass. On this very forum in fact.

mmm... so their, things, (you know what i mean :wink:) would be pressed tight on an armor that is more hot on the inside than a desert (IMHO) and jumping around with no support, either that or women with big... were abnormal in those times, IDTS (i don't think so) i think everyone has seen the Venus from Milo, and they're not cherries (but not watermelons either... yum watermelons... :smitten::mellow::rolleyes3::rolleyes4::smug::cool4::wiseguy::tongue2::tongue3::beam::clown:)

[Horatius]

mmm... so their, things, (you know what i mean :wink:) would be pressed tight on an armor that is more hot on the inside than a desert (IMHO) and jumping around with no support, either that or women with big... were abnormal in those times, IDTS (i don't think so) i think everyone has seen the Venus from Milo, and they're not cherries (but not watermelons either... yum watermelons... :smitten::mellow::rolleyes3::rolleyes4::smug::cool4::wiseguy::tongue2::tongue3::beam::clown:)

That really depends on the armor type, and other variables.




Very true

Yes, although I did some study and a lot of these ancient societies at least granted women remarkable freedoms when compared to the world in the 18th and early 19th and in some ways even late 19th century.

Since you just did a paper on it what evidence does exist for the "Barbarians". Tacitus doesn't exactly paint a picture of female liberation in Germanic society.

[gamegeek2]

You can find my old AAR, Of Mail and Men, which focused around a female character.

Someday I will replay that AAR, but not until AtB is released.

[Brennus]

Since you just did a paper on it what evidence does exist for the "Barbarians". Tacitus doesn't exactly paint a picture of female liberation in Germanic society.

The paper was only on the status of women in the Celtic world from the Halstatt period to the Norman invasion. Thats true, but as with all written sources on "barbarian" cultures you need to offset information with archaeology to get a more complete picture. For example no classical author that I know of mentions female warriors in continental Celtic society (some describe how intimidating they are or how when the Cimbri and Teutons were retreating the women took up weapons to slay the deserters and persuing Romans, but these were not warriors as such) but the archaeological data does show some women were active in battle, but again as you point out these were in the minority.

[Ludens]

mmm... so their, things, (you know what i mean :wink:) would be pressed tight on an armor that is more hot on the inside than a desert (IMHO) and jumping around with no support, either that or women with big... were abnormal in those times, IDTS (i don't think so) i think everyone has seen the Venus from Milo, and they're not cherries

:inquisitive:
And the Venus of Milo represents the typical female warrior rather than a beauty ideal? Women warriors were most likely though, sturdily-built women whose sexual characteristics had been suppressed by constant physical exercise. And I doubt the women mentioned in this thread used chest-plates: Boudicca and Tomyris because their cultures didn't know them, Cleopatra because she didn't fight, and Zenobia because she is described as an archer (and probably also didn't fight).

[jirisys]

:inquisitive:
And the Venus of Milo represents the typical female warrior rather than a beauty ideal? Women warriors were most likely though, sturdily-built women whose sexual characteristics had been suppressed by constant physical exercise. And I doubt the women mentioned in this thread used chest-plates: Boudicca and Tomyris because their cultures didn't know them, Cleopatra because she didn't fight, and Zenobia because she is described as an archer (and probably also didn't fight).

Well true that is, my point is wouldn't they be uncomfortable, either with big ones or small ones using a male unsupported armor, and even id they didn't use them i'm sure that they used clothes creating the "sexist armor plate" except that it is a piece of cloth, i was just saying that to contradict the point of the "sexist armor plate" for it's un-comfortability to use a male non-sexist armor plate, but big or small, they'd bound to be supported, protected and at least with a certain degree of comfort. Armors were designed for men because in those cultures, women fighters were almost impossible to find.

[Ludens]

I see what you are getting at, but wouldn't a simpler answer be that they didn't bother with chestplates at all? Apart from Zenobia, the only female warriors I am aware of were either Celtic or nomadic.

[Subotan]

mmm... so their, things, (you know what i mean :wink:) would be pressed tight on an armor that is more hot on the inside than a desert (IMHO) and jumping around with no support, either that or women with big... were abnormal in those times, IDTS (i don't think so) i think everyone has seen the Venus from Milo, and they're not cherries (but not watermelons either... yum watermelons...
No, I was subtly alluding to the fact that I have seen images on this forum of female hoplites lacking a curiass altogether.


2419966]:smitten::mellow::rolleyes3::rolleyes4::smug::cool4::wiseguy::tongue2::tongue3::beam::clown:)
...That's a lot of emoticons.

[Olaf The Great]

The only females you will see are Princesses and traps.

[jirisys]

No, I was subtly alluding to the fact that I have seen images on this forum of female hoplites lacking a curiass altogether.


...That's a lot of emoticons.

Yep they're

[Horatius]

The paper was only on the status of women in the Celtic world from the Halstatt period to the Norman invasion. Thats true, but as with all written sources on "barbarian" cultures you need to offset information with archaeology to get a more complete picture. For example no classical author that I know of mentions female warriors in continental Celtic society (some describe how intimidating they are or how when the Cimbri and Teutons were retreating the women took up weapons to slay the deserters and persuing Romans, but these were not warriors as such) but the archaeological data does show some women were active in battle, but again as you point out these were in the minority.

Interesting, although unfortunately archaeological evidence is open to multiple interpretation when not backed up by literary evidence, still I do agree there were some gender bending extrodinary warrior women back in the ancient world, it is in some ways surprising the ancients went as far as they did regarding womens status, I'm just not entirely convinced that enough women would be fighting in any paritcular battle while the battles results where in some type of question to justify having them on the battlefield.

Perhaps making female family members merchant princesses could be justified though?

[bobbin]

I'm getting a bit depressed by some of the rather immature posts that are cropping up in this thread, women have breasts get over it, you sound like 12 year olds.

As for the breastplate issue, women who were warriors would not have needed any adjustments as they would be very fit and so wouldn't normally have big breasts (being mostly made of fat), if the needed to they would probably bind them to flatten them too. This is beside the point, as Ludens stated the cultures that such warriors came from weren't really big on breastplates anyway.

[Cute Wolf]

Hmm... maybe they aren't wearing bronze/steel solid breastplate, but wearing lamellar breastplates that was more flexible....

But seriously, did you know how ridiculously Sarmatian virgin cavalry in BI fall quickly to arrow fire? that's why in real life, they need some kind of breastplate for protection...

[antisocialmunky]

Scale...

Why are you not mentioning the scale?!?

[Subotan]

I'm getting a bit depressed by some of the rather immature posts that are cropping up in this thread, women have breasts get over it, you sound like 12 year olds.

I quite agree. I was only mentioning that I had seen it.

[bobbin]

But seriously, did you know how ridiculously Sarmatian virgin cavalry in BI fall quickly to arrow fire? that's why in real life, they need some kind of breastplate for protection...
As far as I recall Scale was the armour of choice for steepe warriors, so if they were wealthy enough to afford armour female Sarmatian warriors would have worn Scale. Same goes for the Celts who would have worn chainmail instead of a breastplate.

[Cute Wolf]

As far as I recall Scale was the armour of choice for steepe warriors, so if they were wealthy enough to afford armour female Sarmatian warriors would have worn Scale. Same goes for the Celts who would have worn chainmail instead of a breastplate.

Yeah, they'll use scale... but I was mentioning Vanilla BI Virgin cavalry :yes:

[antisocialmunky]

As far as I recall Scale was the armour of choice for steepe warriors, so if they were wealthy enough to afford armour female Sarmatian warriors would have worn Scale. Same goes for the Celts who would have worn chainmail instead of a breastplate.

Thank you. :book: