The Pagan Addon Thread.

[giskard]

Hello all.

It occured me that creating a common pagan pack might be a good way to enhance all pagan factions used in our campaigns.

Certain files used for multiplayer would have to be left untouched or playing online would be impossible.

We already have a pagan image pack that uses some default images based on barocca suggestion for a fix to an existing problem.

What we can do now is modify the pack to create a more pagan feeling when playing pagan factions. Perhaps even add some flags and a druid priest later once we figure out the end result of modifying the required files.

Anyway Im going to follow barocca lead here and start some research into the pagan pack idea and see how far it can be taken. With a hopeful end result in a drop in pagan expansion that doesnt conflict with existing game features too much.

I checked the building names and they seem to be set in a number of configs so its probably best to do a straight image replacement for them.

I would like to check into creating a brand new pagan build queue though.

Giskard

[giskard]

On the compatibility issue with other packs I have had a quick look at the modpack and noticed the following important files have been included and I assume changed.

All startpos campaigns.
A lot of Loc/eng files.
crusader_build_prod13.txt

This is why the pagan campaigns have problems. They assume those files are standard and they are not in this mod.

The modpack is a pretty heft change to the game though with lots of little changes to a lot of important default files. I doubt you would be able to drop in other addons without causing some sort of a problem. It looks like a complete upgrade rather than a number of small upgrades.

I would like to know if the mod allows online play though because it may help me see what files prevent online play for the pagan addon.

Tip: extract the mod to a directory other than your MTW directory and you will see all the modified files for your self.

Its a nice mod but I doubt it would be very compatible with other mods.

Giskard


[This message has been edited by giskard (edited 10-11-2002).]

[barocca]

any changes to the unit or build prod files require your opponent in online play to have exactly the same mods installed.
BUT
before vanya wrote his GUI statswapper there existed a number of batch file stat swappers,

these allowed you to switch between preferred SP stats and Standard MP stats very very easily,
as does Vanya's Statswapper.

I am not a programmer so i won't be able to duplicate Vanya's work in a GUI environment,
But i can write/modify a batch file to do the job for us.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

(XP users need only chioc.com installed, and choice.com can be easily included in the download)

so we need not be afraid of changing the unit and build prod files.

[Lord Krazy]

I was never afraid of that I have
about 200 of 'em at the moment.
now which was the last one?


Well done again,

LK.

[Swoosh So]

What differences are there from the pagan factions to the normal catholic or muslim?

[giskard]

Good question.

Aside from a few buildings and units that do differ they are currently more or less the same as the other cultures. Which is why we may be able to do better.

For instance suppose we do look at units. Pagans would probably have masses of cheap troops. More so than most other factions but they would be self motived or in fear for their lives so they may get certain bonuses.

Pagans probably wouldnt have highly advanced units though. It is hard to work it out as we dont have many 15th century pagen nations to look at. Only the Moguls and they invented the cannon i believe.

I think I'll get the images sorted first. Then see about making a couple of custom crusader files as an optional extra. Dont hold your breath for them though. For some reason everybody wants me time at once and my own site has stuff that needs sorting out too. If you have any good pics for pagan buildings send them to me via email. If you know how to covert them first pleae feel free to do so http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Perhaps somebody could help me out with units that would be good for pagan factions ?
The period the game covers is not my strongest point. OR units pagans definately wouldnt have.


Giskard



[This message has been edited by giskard (edited 10-11-2002).]

[barocca]

Units,

We can copy and create new units pretty much at will within the confines of the current file system, meaning if we want this mod to be as compatible as possible we need to use the current battlefield bif set available to us.

remember we can mix and match shields and weapons within those confines, thanks to Wellington and LK's research http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


the current Viking, Highland Clansmen, Kerns and GallowGlasses cover the typical Pagan Army mix,
plus light cavalry of some sort, some with spears, some bow firing, perhaps some with javelins
a new archer class is also required, often archers were ordinary soldiers/warriors who could fire a bow, and did so, but then fought hand to hand as capable as other warriors once ammo was depleted or meelee contact was reached

- all missile troops should have less ammo than other faction regular's of these types.
- all troops should be a little more liable to charge without orders, representing the chaotic nature of pagan army control
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

we can modify current unique to province units, to be available for pagan factions,
but less capable than origin province builds,
similar to the way the English can build Longbowmen anywhere...

that solves some problems, as for seige equipment, light catapult and light cannon would be my choice, perhaps lower the stats for these as Pagan Artillery,

Fanatics could be modified to represent peasantry.

The overall idea being lightly armoured, uncontrollable(liable to charge) and cheap,

I do not think Royal Knights should be used as the King and Heirs cavalry, Pagan Rulers were often adept ar archery, perhaps a better armoured, more capable horse archer type unit? (less ammo)

At least we are working with a feature of the game that has not been fully explored and developed, but is, on the whole, quite possible to create within the current game
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

now what do we do about the women?
Quote Ammianus Marcellinus circa 20 BC
A whole troop of foreigners would not be able to withstand a single Celt if he called his wife to his assistance. The wife is even more formidable. She is usually very strong, and with blue eyes; in rage her neck veins swell, she gnashes her teeth, and brandishes her snow-white robust arms. She begins to strike blows mingled with kicks, as if they were so many missles sent from the string of a catapault.
[/QUOTE]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[barocca]

this might help http://www.ealaghol.demon.co.uk/celtenc/celt_ind.htm
darn, only a partial copy of it...


hmm...
heres the FULL version online!! http://www.celticgrounds.com/chapters/encyclopedia/indices/encycintro.html

[This message has been edited by barocca (edited 10-12-2002).]

[barocca]

and incidently, the legendary ninth legion
was destroyed by Boadicea (IX Hispania - destroyed 60AD),
by the time of Marcus Aurelius 161 AD the reconstituted Ninth had again been annihilated in battle and was disbanded.

in 9AD 3 legions (XVII, XVIII, and XIX), six cohorts and three squadrons of cavalry under Varus were destroyed in the Teutoburger Wald (Saltus Teutoburgiensis) by The Germanic tribe, the Cherusci.
very little is known about these three legions, odd considering the detail the Romans usually kept on such things. http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/legions.htm

the two incidents are often "combined" in myth.

NOW,
must get back on topic
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[giskard]

I was thinking along the same lines my self.

First step is to make the image pack.

Second is to remove all barbarian refrences from existing entries they shouldnt have and add entries to reflect the modifications we need to make them truely pagan.

I should point out that for most of its life the Romans where pagan and so where the greeks. Atleast by modern day terms. Pagan doesnt nessessarily mean they do not believe in a god. They just do not conform to traditional views on the subject.

So we can expand our pagan references into a more organised army if need be. Pagans can be dreaded or loved too so loyality is something we need to decide upon.

For instance, do we go for a dreaded pagan army appraoch or do we make them like other factions we already know who can inspire loyality via other means.

Im going to start looking into this later. For now Im going to work on the buildings and do some research.

Thanks for the links http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Giskard

[giskard]

Just thinking out load here.

Building images we can replace for pagans.
+ means these have no value in a pagan culture like the vikings.

Royal Palace
Tavern
Brothel
Church
Cethedral +
Chapter House +
Monastory +
Religuary +
Inn
Royal Estate
Baronial Castle
County miltia
Royal court
Mosque +
Ribat +
Miltery Academy
Town Guard
Town Watch
Baronial Estates

In addition we must decide on what pagan nation we wish to base our mod on. Romans would be more or less what we already have. Vikings would be something different. However we cannot stick strictly to vikings as they where past their prime by the period the game covers.

A basic ealry period Pagan faction based on the vikings would probably have the following skills.

+1 dread some units.
+1 war on some units
+1 war on all ships or a free upgrade to the second level ships at the start of the game.

Town Guard, Royal buildings would more or less be centraly controlled by a warlord of some kind. He's close friends and family being people in important positions. Rule of the strongest would mean the king or warlord in this case would always be the toughest guy in the faction and his personal body guard would be made up of a lot of tough men from different backgrounds all loyal to the warlord.

Home regions would be well treated but newly conquered would not be at first. Atleast until the invader had convert them and made them pagan.

Due to the nature of the pagan army many units simply would not be buildable by pagans using the existing system because the required buildings would not be available to start with.

The effects of conquering a region containing a building they should not have needs to be looked into.

The celts where pretty common through europe at one point in history and as your links show (i have some too btw) the information on them is readily available.

Round houses or long houses seemed to be the prefered method of construction for them but this may be too early a period for MTW.

Giskard

[giskard]

All of this does run into some problems though. A lot of stuff is inside the campaign files for this and i really dont want to make those files unusable with any mod we eventually make.

So perhaps for now we should concentrate on repacing the images for the required buildings and seeing if we can add pagan flags and banners via script rather than replacing an existing factions flag or banner.

Giskard

[This message has been edited by giskard (edited 10-12-2002).]

[barocca]

if you conquer a province which as a a building you are not entitled to culture waise. then the building is destroyed and you get no plunder from it.


as for the buildings, round, long etc. it is what the pagans would most likely have continued with if left undisturbed, not too ealry at all i think...

[giskard]

I've been looking through the units and a lot of the late units simply would not be available to pagans. Many have cultural or religious qualities that would mean the troop selection would be limited for pagans.

The more I look into it the more complex the pagan problem becomes. Getting it right will be tricky to say the least. Especially since all references to major pagan factions are between 200 and 800 years out of date for this time period.

However if we look at the moguls and what they did in china and india we can see them using the expertese of the locals and developing techology they gained to be useful in war.

In india the Khans built a poor house next to the royal palace so the poor could get atleast 1 meal a day.

They believed in keeping the population happy and loyal and in this they succeeded.

By building the poor house next to the Royal Palace everybody could see how generous they where. Examples of a popular revolting because of bad treatment do exist along side text describing the faint of the mogul leader responsible. Apparently the mogul Khans would execute leaders that failed to keep the population loyal.

So whilst they would move into a region and kill every sign of resistance, once there they would take on the role of protectors and do what ever was required to maintain the peace and encourage loyality.

No other faction went to such extremes to my knowledge. So perhaps some of those buildings we see but cannot use may be reassigned to give pagan factions a +2 moral or loyality in the region where they where built.

Still studying pagan cultures though. It is clear that European pagan cultures died too early to give us an example of how they would have developed but Asian pagan cultures tended to become part of other religions over time. So my inclination is to start out as pure pagan and slowly develope faith in a god towards the end of the game.

Meaning we go from stone hendge to a cathedral over a period of time.

In game terms they remain pagan but start building build mounds and hedges for their own beliefs then upgrade to cathedrals later to keep the population happy.

The chapter house might be converted into a poor house or used for pagan invasions into other regions. We simply remove the holy references and replace them with invading pagan references.

Still not sure what building would be suitable for the poor house if we are to include it. Mercs would probably be a major feature of any pagan army though too so the inn would be important.

Giskard

[This message has been edited by giskard (edited 10-13-2002).]

[barocca]

seeing as this topic came up again i thought i would revive a few threads on the issue,

most of the work in these threads if for v1.0.
but the underlying principles remain,
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

oh yes, i also uploaded some pagan building resources to the upload folder
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWupload/
these are half finished, and also some resources to design more.

barocca

[Sakurai, Saionji]

Are you saying we can actually add new units??