Praetorian Stamina less than regular Legionaires?

[Intranetusa]

So I was messing around with the units the other day, and it seems that Prateorian legionaires have less stamina than regular reformed legionaires.

The regular legionaires have the good stamina description, whereas the Prateorians do not.

Is this suppose to be correct?

[Cute Wolf]

Regular Legionaries are Marius' Mule... they are usually march carry a heavyweight packs on their back, as well as doing camp constructions practically everytime they stop...

Compare that with Praetorians

They are pampered, highly waged elites, that aside from normal military drill, spends their time sitting arroung in tavern inside Barbaropolis Roma...

Of course, common sense will tell, who has better stamina... (the drill may built techniques, but stamina is tested with endurance)

[Intranetusa]

That's exactly what I had thought, thanks.

[seienchin]

Maybe real answer is way more simple...
The praetorians are just a copy of the cohortas evocata, which has low stamina, because they are old veterans.
That would be my guess.

[vartan]

Maybe real answer is way more simple...
The praetorians are just a copy of the cohortas evocata, which has low stamina, because they are old veterans.
That would be my guess.

Interesting idea. I was thinking of this as well. Age playing a factor...

[Macilrille]

I find that I at my 39 can still outmarch, outfight, outrun, outcycle, everything requiring stamina, 99% of the 18- 25 YO I meet. That is the general trend I see in elite military units as well. So I doubt that being a veteran would make you tired. Nor were the veterans posted to the Praetorian guard old, decrepit, semi-crippled men. They were supposedly the best and most fit, like any Guard unit.

However, have anyone checked the Praetorians' armour, it might be heavier, for that is with certainty a consideration. Very much so.

[Cute Wolf]

I find that I at my 39 can still outmarch, outfight, outrun, outcycle, everything requiring stamina, 99% of the 18- 25 YO I meet. That is the general trend I see in elite military units as well. So I doubt that being a veteran would make you tired. Nor were the veterans posted to the Praetorian guard old, decrepit, semi-crippled men. They were supposedly the best and most fit, like any Guard unit.

However, have anyone checked the Praetorians' armour, it might be heavier, for that is with certainty a consideration. Very much so.

Well, Praetorians are not "Veteran Guards" but they are separetely recruited, and taught in better combat skills and drills, but spend their lives pampered in Roma, while their fellow Cohors Reformata / Imperiorata carrying big rucksack almost everyday, will made a big difference...

BTW, armour of Praetorians is 14, while the normal cohors reformata / imperiorata is 10.... well, quite a big difference woth several Kg's of armour... maybe that was the reason...

[Ludens]

Well, Praetorians are not "Veteran Guards" but they are separetely recruited, and taught in better combat skills and drills, but spend their lives pampered in Roma, while their fellow Cohors Reformata / Imperiorata carrying big rucksack almost everyday, will made a big difference...

They may have ended up like that, but I doubt the early praetorians were pampered lazybones. It was a combat unit during Germanicus' campaign, at least.

[seienchin]

Okay, we have the cohortes evocate, which has lower stamina, because they are old.
Now we have the preatorians, which are a copy (Same model, skin has colourchange and a coat). I guess the person responsible just copied most of the stats also. Maybe because of gamebalance reasons...

[Macilrille]

And many others. It is the habit of most Guard Units to also be amongst the best in their nation/state's military.

Praetorians:
From the Scipiones to Augustus Praetorians was a small elite guard picked from each army by its commander to guard his tent, the "praetorium". They were picked from the ranks and were the the best, bravest and most loyal of the soldiers. They were generally exempt from standard camp duties, their only duty being to guard the general. It may sometimes have been an entire cohort.
Caesar supplemented his with a guard of Batavians if I recall correctly.

Augustus, being more a politician than a general, percieved the need for a constant loyal guard around his person. He thus created the Praetorian guard as we know it, recruited from the various provincial legions and deserving youths from the Italian Provinces and kept in garissions around- later in- Rome. Recruitment was later extended to other provinces.

Service in the guard was an honored position, and was considered elite status for a soldier. And the Praetorians often went on campaign with the Emperor. As the Empire pursued a "Preclusive Security" strategy (all enemies checked beyond or at the border) deep Barbarian penetrations were unopposed beyond the Limes, it could often fall upon the imperial guard to secure the interior empire. They also accompanied those emperors who functioned as generals while on campaign, and parts could go with the Son/Heir when he campaigned- as seen with Germanicus.Trajan and Marcus Aurelius both used them extensively, and the Praetorians certainly were involved in heavy action.

Being extempted from normal camp duty such as digging latrinnes, etc; the Praetorians would, by all evidence, instead devote their time to training and as vegetius says and the LLE does "Hard training gives easy fights, easy training gives hard fights". There is nothing to indicate your position CW; that Praetorians should be lazy, pampered parade-ground soldiers. When choosing to fight they acquitted themselves well. And in general, they seem to have been a positive force for the Empire and its stability for at least the first two centuries of their existance until the period of nefarity where they basically auctioned the Empire, but apart from that the emperors they took out or allowed to be taken out were the weak and/or unpopular ones while the strong and popular ones were supported. Further, the Praetorians could generally keep the Roman mob in check when necessary and thus protect the Emperor against the sort of mob rule that often dominated the Late Republic.

I wonder where you got the impression they were weak, lazy and pa,pered?

In any case, I believe I hit the nail on the head- armour, not weakness, exhausts the Praetorians, just like it did the Triarii if you notice, and just like my extra-heavy chainmail does me or whoever else chose to wear it. heavy armour wears you down.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I assume it is a matter of heavier armour. Or an oversight. I don't know: I never drew up stats for units. Anyways, the same thing is seen with Thorakitai versus Tureophoroi, and various other units.

[ARCHIPPOS]

quoted by Suvorov Viktor "Spetsnaz. The Story Behind the Soviet SAS", Chapter 10, Battle Training (link here (http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/index.html))


"In the First World War the best Russian regiments stayed in Saint Petersburg. They protected the Emperor and they were trained only to be used in the most critical situations. The longer the war went on, the less inclined the guards regiments became to fight. The war dragged on, turned into a senseless carve-up, and finally the possibility arose of a quick end to it. To bring the end nearer the Emperor decided to make use of his guards....

The Revolution of 1917 was no revolution. It was simply a revolt by the guards in just one city in a huge empire. The soldiers no longer wanted to fight; they were afraid of war and did not want to die for nothing. Throughout the country there were numerous parties all of which were in favour of ending the war, and only one of them called for peace. The soldiers put their trust in that party. Meanwhile, the regiments that were fighting at the front had suffered enormous losses and their morale was very low, but they had not thought of dispersing to their homes. The front collapsed only when the central authority in Saint Petersburg collapsed.

Lenin's party, which seized power in that vast empire by means of the bayonets of terrified guards in the rear, drew the correct conclusions. Today soldiers are not kept for long in the rear and they don't spend much time in training. It is judged much wiser to throw the young soldier straight into battle, to put those who remain alive into the reserve, reinforce with fresh reservists, and into battle again. The title of 'guards' is then granted only in the course of battle, and only to those units that have suffered heavy losses but kept fighting."

However i agree that reduced stamina (in the EB game mechanics i mean) might have to do primarily with added armour weight-Watchman might have sth to say considering this.Frankly do we have any way of knowing if historicaly the Praetorians were "tougher" than the original legionary? (not only in terms of build or physical condition but rather on a mere "psychological" aspect)-we're all making assumptions here ...

[Cambyses]

Well, in their original incarnation, the Praetorian Guards were the chosen elite, picked from all the different legions. By definition that would indicate that the soldiers were better than average at fighting.

[Macilrille]

Lenin's party, which seized power in that vast empire by means of the bayonets of terrified guards in the rear, drew the correct conclusions. Today soldiers are not kept for long in the rear and they don't spend much time in training. It is judged much wiser to throw the young soldier straight into battle, to put those who remain alive into the reserve, reinforce with fresh reservists, and into battle again.

And we all know how effective this approach is in comparison with well-trained units like the Wehrmacht of 1941- '42...

I have little respect for the USSR/Russian approach, compare with effectiveness of Lehr, GD, senior SS divisions, LLE, USMC, UK/CW Guards, etc, etc. All these latter units were trained extensively in effective systems and states before being committed to combat and were by far more effective than any USSR/Russian counterpart. The problem is that you need an effective state to enforce effective discipline, training programmes and training. And you need to actually care for your soldiers well-being. As I see it the USSR did not have this and TBH Russia does not seem to either.

I maintain that it is easy to keep soldiers fit and trained for combat in garrision, look at LLE (The Foreign Legion). Most of it are not committed to battle and has not been since Algeria, but does anyone doubt that they are a fearsome force? They are because their training and discipline is extreme.

[bobbin]

From what I can tell the Praetorians get greaves and some extra chain mail on the shoulders, I suppose that could make up for the discrepency.

[vartan]

Are we talking about the Prima Cohors Reformata (http://tinyurl.com/Prima-Cohors-Reformata) and the Cohors Praetoriana (http://tinyurl.com/Cohors-Praetoriana)? If so, I see that Cohors Praetoriana has 4 higher armour value, 1 higher attack value, less men, and higher cost to recruit and maintain. I assume that the Rome: Total War engine takes into account armour value when determining stamina/fatigue of a unit.

[Mr Frost]

.. I assume that the Rome: Total War engine takes into account armour value when determining stamina/fatigue of a unit.

The game engine doesn't determine stamina . The developers or {in this case} modders do in the stats in export_units.txt along with other attributes .
Units that have good stamina are listed as Hardy , those with very good stamina as Very_Hardy .

[vartan]

The game engine doesn't determine stamina . The developers or {in this case} modders do in the stats in export_units.txt along with other attributes .
Units that have good stamina are listed as Hardy , those with very good stamina as Very_Hardy .

I am sorry. I did not phrase correctly. What I meant is: I assume that the current state of a unit in battle (e.g. winded, warmed up, etc.) that the engine displays takes into account the stamina value. But do all units tire at the same rate? i.e. If you have X number of stamina points and dX/dt is rate at which stamina points decrease in battle (assuming unit is constantly moving/attacking/defending), is dX/dt same for all units, or is it based on armour value, or several other factors??? I hope I am understandable...and I sure am going to miss mathematics (I stop courses in mathematics some time in March).

[ziegenpeter]

The game engine doesn't determine stamina . The developers or {in this case} modders do in the stats in export_units.txt along with other attributes .
Units that have good stamina are listed as Hardy , those with very good stamina as Very_Hardy .
Uhm sure that they arent listed as good stamina and very good stamina?

[Aemilius Paulus]

I am sorry. I did not phrase correctly. What I meant is: I assume that the current state of a unit in battle (e.g. winded, warmed up, etc.) that the engine displays takes into account the stamina value. But do all units tire at the same rate? i.e. If you have X number of stamina points and dX/dt is rate at which stamina points decrease in battle (assuming unit is constantly moving/attacking/defending), is dX/dt same for all units, or is it based on armour value, or several other factors??? I hope I am understandable...and I sure am going to miss mathematics (I stop courses in mathematics some time in March).
I understand what you are saying. You know that different units have different amounts of stamina, so you are asking if the units tire at different rates and have more/less stamina. Anyhow, it is a long thing to explain, but the main point is, I am pretty certain I got you.

The answer would be yes, IMO. I have noticed that the Roman Camillian Triarii tire just from walking. No other Camillian unit tires from walking, not as far as I saw (Not fully sure, so correct me if I am wrong - through a test-, but so far I did not notice any lighter units tire from walking). It seems that walking never depletes stamina for normal units, but it did for Triarii, and relatively swiftly... So it does seem they lose stamina at different rates, in addition to having less total stamina. OR, perhaps the engine has no such thing as a 'stamina bar' (y'know, like a HP bar in FPS/RPG games) and that all the differences in stamina are merely a product of each unit losing/regaining at different rates, with no second factor that measures the total stamina. That would make things easier.

[Macilrille]

No, as I mentioned earlier, I too have noticed Triarii tire faster (are my posts too long for people to read?), so does Pedites Extraordinarii.

[bobbin]

I just done a test using the Hypaspistai (14 armour and the hardy trait) and Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai (8 armour and the hardy trait) by first walking them across the Grassy Plain custom battle map and then running them across. Neither tired with the walking and when ordered to run both tired at the same rate (the hoplitai moved faster though) so it seems that armour dosen't have an effect on stamina.

[vartan]

I just done a test using the Hypaspistai (14 armour and the hardy trait) and Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai (8 armour and the hardy trait) by first walking them across the Grassy Plain custom battle map and then running them across. Neither tired with the walking and when ordered to run both tired at the same rate (the hoplitai moved faster though) so it seems that armour dosen't have an effect on stamina.

Alright. So what are the stamina traits? what is hardy, good stamina, and very good stamina? What are these? Because as I see it, fatigue depends on these.

[bobbin]

hardy and very_hardy are unit attributes that you find in the EDU,they control the rate at which a unit tires. In the game these are shown on the unit cards as "good stamina" and "very good stamina"

Unit entries in the EDU with the hardy attribute highlighted.

;157
type greek infantry hypaspistai
dictionary greek_infantry_hypaspistai ; Hypaspistai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_hypaspistai_massiloi_hoplitai, 30, 0, 1.22
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 0.76, 1, 1.6, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 12, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 17, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 14, 11, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -3
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 3250, 813, 60, 90, 3250
ownership macedon, romans_julii, thrace

;444
type celtic infantry keltohellenikoi
dictionary celtic_infantry_keltohellenikoi ; Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light_1
soldier celtic_infantry_keltohellenikoi, 40, 0, 1.18
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -3
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 5, 8, javelin, 45, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 15, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 8, 10, 3, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 11, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1250, 312, 70, 498, 1250
ownership britons, gauls, scythia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, numidia, romans_julii, carthage

On further searching the Triarii don't even have the hardy attribute which explains why the tire so quickly.

[antisocialmunky]

Triarii only need to sit in defense.

[Cute Wolf]

from my experience with modifying unit traits (in another RTW mod, for exact, my own mod project balance tests, not EB)
*. NOTE without "phalanx" formation, mere walking on flat ground NEVER deplete anyone's stamina. "Phalanx" formations did cause slow stamina drain when walking on flat ground.
- no hardy or very_hardy listed = tired moderalely by walking uphill or across rough terrain (such as forests), running and fighting deplete the stamina quickly
- hardy = tired slowly by walking uphill, and not tired from rough flat terrain, running and fighting moderately deplete the stamina.
- very_hardy = regain stamina when just walking (in flat, smooth terrain though), not tired by walking uphill, and only slowly tired from running. fighting did deplete the stamina in almost the same rate as "hardy"

remember that heat fatique value took place when it was on arid/desert climate... when your unit have negative heat fatique, they will regain stamina when walking in hot map

[Aemilius Paulus]

(are my posts too long for people to read?)
Wait 'till you see my Backroom posts. Average length - one page. But Backroom patrons are generally more mature, both in age and in behaviour, so patience may go along with that... Fellow long-wider, eh?



*. NOTE without "phalanx" formation, mere walking on flat ground NEVER deplete anyone's stamina.
So I would think, but I have consitently seen my Triarii tire on perfectly flat ground. Yes, flat - I marched my perfectly rested Triarii through Greek settlements enough times to consistently observe them tire, even when they never engage anyone. And a settlement is the definition of absolutely flat (but not the barbarian ones, of course).

[Mr Frost]

I am sorry. I did not phrase correctly. What I meant is: I assume that the current state of a unit in battle (e.g. winded, warmed up, etc.) that the engine displays takes into account the stamina value. But do all units tire at the same rate? i.e. If you have X number of stamina points and dX/dt is rate at which stamina points decrease in battle (assuming unit is constantly moving/attacking/defending), is dX/dt same for all units, or is it based on armour value, or several other factors??? I hope I am understandable...and I sure am going to miss mathematics (I stop courses in mathematics some time in March).

Sorry , I missunderstood then .

I've often wondered myself if they calculate individually too . I think they do in Empire {not certain mind , but I get that impression from modding around in it} but I have no idea if they do so in Rome .
I am certain that being under missile fire will add to the fatigue factor {it seems to be very similar to ETW} as will being in "ready" stance {where an enemy is close enough they will go into a "ready to fight" stance} .
I'm pretty certain armour doesn't make a difference , but I'm not certain even the current C/A development team remember all the different stuff they put in {and which is active or not} so who knows ?

[Aemilius Paulus]

I am certain that being under missile fire will add to the fatigue factor {it seems to be very similar to ETW} as will being in "ready" stance {where an enemy is close enough they will go into a "ready to fight" stance} .
No, not at all. Test it if you wish :shrug:

[Cute Wolf]

Sorry , I missunderstood then .

I've often wondered myself if they calculate individually too . I think they do in Empire {not certain mind , but I get that impression from modding around in it} but I have no idea if they do so in Rome .
I am certain that being under missile fire will add to the fatigue factor {it seems to be very similar to ETW} as will being in "ready" stance {where an enemy is close enough they will go into a "ready to fight" stance} .
I'm pretty certain armour doesn't make a difference , but I'm not certain even the current C/A development team remember all the different stuff they put in {and which is active or not} so who knows ?



I marched my perfectly rested Triarii through Greek settlements enough times to consistently observe them tire

No, not at all. Test it if you wish :shrug:

Even some arrow fire means they are "in-fighting" condition...

[bobbin]

So I would think, but I have consitently seen my Triarii tire on perfectly flat ground. Yes, flat - I marched my perfectly rested Triarii through Greek settlements enough times to consistently observe them tire, even when they never engage anyone. And a settlement is the definition of absolutely flat (but not the barbarian ones, of course).
I tested Polybian Triarii on the Grassy Flatland map and they didn't tire, i marched them from one end on the map to the other and back again and they stayed "fresh" the whole way. Maybe its something to do with moving through cities?:book:

[ARCHIPPOS]

Even some arrow fire means they are "in-fighting" condition...

Shooting arrows WILL tire your archer units even when they're stationary (just thought it's worth mentioning/reminding).

[Cute Wolf]

Shooting arrows WILL tire your archer units even when they're stationary (just thought it's worth mentioning/reminding).

I'm not talk about the archers who doing that shooting... I means unit under arrow fire (from wall towers and scattered enemies) do become tired because everytime one of them got a hit, they will assume "ready to fight" stance.

[ARCHIPPOS]

I'm not talk about the archers who doing that shooting... I means unit under arrow fire (from wall towers and scattered enemies) do become tired because everytime one of them got a hit, they will assume "ready to fight" stance.

i understood what you meant ... my point is that the guys shooting at your boys get tired too :)

[Cute Wolf]

i understood what you meant ... my point is that the guys shooting at your boys get tired too :)

City tower never tired :grin:
Add the fact that we have no rational cost onagerrs in EB

[Ludens]

I've often wondered myself if they calculate individually too . I think they do in Empire {not certain mind , but I get that impression from modding around in it} but I have no idea if they do so in Rome .

I seem to recall that fatigue was calculated on unit basis in R:TW 1.0, leading to units tiring quickly from one or two men joining combat. That was changed in later patch.


I'm pretty certain armour doesn't make a difference , but I'm not certain even the current C/A development team remember all the different stuff they put in {and which is active or not} so who knows ?

Armour did make a difference in original M:TW, when fighting in the desert. Doesn't R:TW use stat_heat for this?


I'm not talk about the archers who doing that shooting... I means unit under arrow fire (from wall towers and scattered enemies) do become tired because everytime one of them got a hit, they will assume "ready to fight" stance.

Interesting, I didn't know that

[Cute Wolf]

Interesting, I didn't know that

You can took an evidence when an unit get some of their men get an arrow (even when it wasn't cause any death), the animation and comments changed into "ready" stat..... you can look at their raised shield and ter to neat up their formations... actually, I got this conclusion just recently, when testing unit balance on my mod...

[vartan]

Thanks for your test results Cute Wolf, you rock. That's exactly what I was looking for.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Even some arrow fire means they are "in-fighting" condition...
No, it is different.

I'm not talk about the archers who doing that shooting... I means unit under arrow fire (from wall towers and scattered enemies) do become tired because everytime one of them got a hit, they will assume "ready to fight" stance.
Yes, I always knew this. Yes, they do go into the 'Ready' stance and pull their shields in. Yes. But they do not tire. Test it yourself.


Armour did make a difference in original M:TW, when fighting in the desert. Doesn't R:TW use stat_heat for this?
It does indeed. There are stats for heat and cold (and forest too). All are modifiers, not primary stats


Interesting, I didn't know that
You are correct, you did not know that. Why? Because it is not true...


You can took an evidence when an unit get some of their men get an arrow (even when it wasn't cause any death), the animation and comments changed into "ready" stat..... you can look at their raised shield and ter to neat up their formations... actually, I got this conclusion just recently, when testing unit balance on my mod...
Once again, I always knew this, as I am a big fan of zooming in for the eyecandy at all times (at the cost of spending more time in the 'pause' mode than in real-time :shame:. But the units do not get tired.


Shoot, I will test it this Friday or so and tell you :yes: Perhaps you are correct, but I doubt it. :shrug:

I tested Polybian Triarii on the Grassy Flatland map and they didn't tire, i marched them from one end on the map to the other and back again and they stayed "fresh" the whole way. Maybe its something to do with moving through cities?:book:
Yes, I do not believe this applies to Polybians - I have only seen the Camillian Triarii do it. I could easily be wrong in this case, because Triarii tiring from walking does not make much sense to me either. :dizzy2:

[Cute Wolf]

Test it yourself? I allready test that :wink:

Walking under arrow fire, even with no casualities... will definitely drain stamina for "non-hardy" troopers... well, next time I'll give a screenie....

[Rahwana]

Test it yourself? I allready test that :wink:

Walking under arrow fire, even with no casualities... will definitely drain stamina for "non-hardy" troopers... well, next time I'll give a screenie....

Minor nitpick to our unit balance test: Unit under fire only tired IF THEY WALK, and UNDER FIRE

This was allready proved....