A letter to Creative Assembly [Archive]

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Marcus Cornelius Marcellus

02-11-2010, 14:13

Dear all,

After checking with the esteemed TosaInu, I am letting you all know that there is a letter to Creative Assembly on behalf of the Total War modding community. Without flaming in any way,and as die hard fans of the Total War series, we are concerned at the lack of modding tools that are currently available for recent TW series games, especially ETW and the new NTW.

This is after repeated promises from CA both on the Sega website and in communications and press releases given by the company.

Many of us feel that perhaps the glory days of modding are now over, as many of the older ranks are retiring, and there are precious few new modders out there with any hopes of doing a full conversion mod.

Frustration with lack of tools, lack of customer support for bug ridden releases make us seriously concerned at the future of both the games and our community.

Having personally been a fan of TW games since Shogun, and as an ex-modder ( team leader of Rome Total Realism, Hexagon Council modding representative and community leader at Total War Center, I feel that we must speak up and voice our concerns and continuing love and hopes for TW games.

If you would like to join us in our letter, please follow this link and you add your name to the letter here. (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=330713)

With Very best regards,

Marcus Cornelius Marcellus

pevergreen

02-11-2010, 14:25

I'd do it if I thought it would accomplish anything.

:shrug:

G. Septimus

02-11-2010, 15:08

I don't do Letters, or join letters in TWC..........

~Caivs

antisocialmunky

02-11-2010, 15:14

A script bot could do a few thousand spam posts on their forums.

But then again you could yell at Jack Lusted.

Husar

02-11-2010, 15:38

Some marketing guy will count the number of signatories, substract it from the number of total sales of the last game, add a certain number for future new customers(and those who signed the letter but will give CA another "last chance" anyway) from the growing gamer market, factor in the DLC revenues, and decide it's not worth paying attention to.
That is if the marketing guy is bored enough to do it in the first place.
Oh and if they can find a developer who is really bored because he is not working on an improved AI, they will try to convince him to make a blog entry explaining how much CA value the customer feedback but that they cannot do the modding tools because they have to write long blog entries and calculate sales losses vs new customers.

gollum

02-11-2010, 17:37

Many of the problems mentioned are chronic and have been accumulating for quite some time. CA has been adamant in closing its ears when it had judged that it had no benefit from listening as in the MP community letter that went on sometime after RTW was released and was flat out rejected despite being signed by long term fans that were on since Shogun (and many say that in this day and age but not all are what they profess) and involved in many ways in the game, its scene and even its development.

However, given that mods contribute commerically to sales in the long run, there might be a chance that your voice may be heard. Of course CA seem very keen on keeping TW as mainstream as possible and as long as that line persists all fantypes are at the mercy of what "the suits" decide, so do not trust to hope.

In any case promising and then playing deaf will not the first nor the last time, most likely, for CA.

DukeCanada

02-13-2010, 15:38

Totalwar players, modders and fans. I urge you to join this petition. Imagine the possibilities of full ETW and NTW tools at our disposal! All it takes is a signature.

Also join the facebook group if you can,

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=299805958315&ref=nf

pevergreen

02-14-2010, 01:01

27 members is why i dont think this will do anything.

The l4d2 boycott group had huge numbers and actual leverage.

Fisherking

02-14-2010, 10:42

It certainly can’t hurt.

It runs to 23 pages at TWC at this point.

pevergreen

02-14-2010, 12:36

28,649 Members

Get north of 5 thousand and it might mean something.

Fisherking

02-14-2010, 15:18

I don’t understand the mind set.

It is as if no one would vote until they knew who the winner was going to be.

Of course numbers mean something but being unwilling to commit or contribute until it is a landslide is a bit puzzling to me.

antisocialmunky

02-14-2010, 15:29

Everyone has seen these things before and seen them fail because it is naive to believe that a commercial enterprise that doesn't have a history of 'we really care about our image in the community' and does not actively try to cultivate the community outside of pre-release hype will change their ways for a few people.

Marcus Cornelius Marcellus

02-15-2010, 02:40

Dear all,
Thank you for your response so far, both positive and negative.

Yes, I am aware of previous petitions in the past that have failed. I did a bit of research on Google, and its amazing what pops up.
I am also aware that historically up till now CA has been less than responsive, and that the general feeling of many members of the modding community that perhaps the best has already gone. I can also appreciate the apathy that some people feel.

That being said, I urge all of you to show your interest, and if possible even, add your name to the thread. Its a case where very much, every voice counts.

We have had 10,000 views on the topic over at the TWCenter in a week. We also now have a Modders Group on Facebook. The reason being is that as long as our voice only resonates here on the fan forums, its controllable and perhaps ignored.

Many of the general public have no idea the strength of the modding community, nor the passion with which these teams pursue their dreams, dealing with members at times spread across the globe. The goal is to show that indeed we are a unified voice. WE are a legitimate community that sparks incredible levels of creativity and development. In many ways I am sure that it stimulates CA to at least try a little harder.

I personally, as a past team member and then as a team leader, have seen some incredible talents develop under these teams and in these communities. Members learn valuable skills which that can take with them back into the real world. They learn a sense of discipline and an ability to push themselves even in the face of , at times, seemingly insurmountable obstacles. They learn to communicate and interact with people from other cultures, to listen and to find the commonalities which drive these teams together.

To see that community die out due to lack of tools, support and encouragement to me seems a terrible travesty.

It only takes a few seconds to log in and read what people have been saying. Many of the top shelf modders have posted and voice their own opinions and concerns, so if you do not want to be a part of the cause, at least inform yourself as to the nature of our concern and requests.

All communities, even like this one here at the Org, require user input. To stand on the sidelines while this important battle goes on would be the biggest tragedy of all.

With sincerest regards,

MCM

Megas Methuselah

02-15-2010, 08:08

That being said, I urge all of you to show your interest, and if possible even, add your name to the thread.

Oh? How much money you gonna give me?

Furunculus

02-17-2010, 18:15

signed.

gollum

02-17-2010, 21:54

Fisherking is actually right, anyone who owns the game and is expecting to play it again, better sign in for the modding tools. The modding community adds tremendous value and replayability in TW games, that are usually released and left unbalanced and poorly optimised in terms of gameplay. Can anyone imagine RTW or M2TW without the mods?

If the modding community fades out, then CA/SEGA's dry, commercial efforts will be all one gets. Not a very nice prospect.

Krusader

02-24-2010, 05:32

antisocialmunky

02-24-2010, 05:43

We'll I wouldn't mind moving from TW to SC2 if that's what the publishers want. :-D

DisruptorX

02-24-2010, 06:02

We'll I wouldn't mind moving from TW to SC2 if that's what the publishers want. :-D

A game which, coincidentally, will have amazing mod tools.

Dead Guy

02-24-2010, 10:40

gollum

02-24-2010, 11:40

Originally posted by Dead Guy
They're not going to give you modding tools, because they have figured out they can make sub-par "mods" and sell them for 5$ every other month to thousands of customers who reason that 5$ is so little money it doesn't matter.

If gamers started pumping out mods for free, this business model would be completely defunct. You want your modding tools? Stop buying their reskinned models instead of joining yet another facebook group. Five bucks per dissatisfied customer hurts way more than a list of names.

This sounds (sadly) true. Its difficult to say what was more obscene with ETW: the state the game was released (and left) in? the exploitation of teh fan base with add-ons? or the insistance of the same to buy them?

antisocialmunky

02-24-2010, 13:08

That's probably SEGA territory as its business strategy.

Furunculus

02-25-2010, 14:52

Dear CA,

Could your next game please be 17th century total war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_century

Some details:
It should cover the whole world
It should have four turns per year
It should span at least 1640-1700

Why because lots of interesting empires existed around then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_colonization_of_the_Americas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugese_Empire

Thank you.

F

caravel

02-25-2010, 17:35

Hello,

I'm sorry but your petition is actually "worthless":

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?66624-Medieval-Gold-Edition-Patch-Released&p=1187838&viewfull=1#post1187838

No the petition did not work. As we have clearly stated before we treat online petitions as worthless as they are not email verified and are totally open to abuse.

What we do take seriously though is polite feedback from our community. Despite what a tiny minority will try have you believe (generally to feed their inner troll) we are keen to support the community as much as possible.

This has always been the Creative Assembly stance on "online petitions" and has yet to change.

Yohei

Marcus Cornelius Marcellus

02-26-2010, 15:05

I think they may be paying a little bit more attention to this one..;)
Its managed to get press coverage and is also spreading through social media. The response is quite substantial. I suggest you go have a look.

An official communication was sent to CA this week, and acknowledged received. So I believe that they are listening. Whether they choose to act, we shall see.

Cheers,

MCM

antisocialmunky

02-28-2010, 22:24

Why can't they jsut release the file specs. Its not hard to make mod tools if you have specs.

Madoushi

03-01-2010, 19:54

Signed, though I'm personally more interested in AI fixing than mod tools.

Kagemusha

03-06-2010, 08:12

I have already signed this at TWC, while it is only wishful thinking that it could achieve anything. Personally M2TW has been so far the last TW game ive purchased. The reason being that the game simply is unmoddable for full conversion modifications, unless the said TW game sets on the same area and point of time as the modification does.

antisocialmunky

03-06-2010, 15:04

Hey Kage, what have you been doing? :-D

Kagemusha

03-06-2010, 16:28

Hey Kage, what have you been doing? :-D

Hi Munky! :) . Ive been having a vacation from TW world so does speak. ;)

Ratwar

03-06-2010, 18:44

They're not going to give you modding tools, because they have figured out they can make sub-par "mods" and sell them for 5$ every other month to thousands of customers who reason that 5$ is so little money it doesn't matter.

If gamers started pumping out mods for free, this business model would be completely defunct. You want your modding tools? Stop buying their reskinned models instead of joining yet another facebook group. Five bucks per dissatisfied customer hurts way more than a list of names.

I'm not sure if that's what they're thinking, and if it is, well, they aren't very smart. Look, probably 95% of people that have played Total War games have never installed a user created mod. The 5% that do are the die hard fans of the franchise (like us!). Now, those 95% of casual players may be enticed to buy content from CA because of advertising from Steam and such, but since there's no real advertising for user created mods, there's really no competition for that 95% of the market. Now the 5% of die hard fans who've bought the last 4 or 5 games are a small enough percentage of users that losing their business shouldn't matter. In fact, if CA released good modding tools, they'd actually come out ahead because the long time fans give advertising dollars and future sales.

A good example of these principles is Bethesda Softworks, the guys behind games like Oblivion and Fallout 3. They've made plenty of money off of Downloadable Content for Oblivion and Fallout 3 despite releasing very extensive modding tools.

Subotan

03-06-2010, 19:21

Most people here who still play strategy games have long ago moved on to Paradox Games. I know I have :D

Fisherking

03-06-2010, 20:30

I'm not sure if that's what they're thinking, and if it is, well, they aren't very smart. Look, probably 95% of people that have played Total War games have never installed a user created mod. The 5% that do are the die hard fans of the franchise (like us!). Now, those 95% of casual players may be enticed to buy content from CA because of advertising from Steam and such, but since there's no real advertising for user created mods, there's really no competition for that 95% of the market. Now the 5% of die hard fans who've bought the last 4 or 5 games are a small enough percentage of users that losing their business shouldn't matter. In fact, if CA released good modding tools, they'd actually come out ahead because the long time fans give advertising dollars and future sales.

A good example of these principles is Bethesda Softworks, the guys behind games like Oblivion and Fallout 3. They've made plenty of money off of Downloadable Content for Oblivion and Fallout 3 despite releasing very extensive modding tools.

That is all very true but a large portion of that reaming 5% would still buy the DLC too.

ReluctantSamurai

03-06-2010, 22:19

In fact, if CA released good modding tools, they'd actually come out ahead because the long time fans give advertising dollars and future sales.

Which is something Bioware discovered a long time ago with NWN. The mods created by fans did nothing but extend the interest in NWN and create a fanbase that has kept on purchasing Bioware products in that genre up to, and including their latest release.

Hell, I still play the Baldur's Gate trilogy 12 years after the release of BG1 mainly because of all the mods and add-ons create replayablity and keep it fun........Hamsters and Rangers everywhere, rejoice!!

Subotan

03-06-2010, 23:38

Hell, I still play the Baldur's Gate trilogy 12 years after the release of BG1 mainly because of all the mods and add-ons create replayablity and keep it fun........Hamsters and Rangers everywhere, rejoice!!
Boo is pleased. And when Boo is pleased, I am pleased.

Megas Methuselah

03-07-2010, 07:35

Boo is pleased. And when Boo is pleased, I am pleased.

What?

Madoushi

03-07-2010, 07:48

What?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsc

ReluctantSamurai

03-08-2010, 04:57

And here I thought there couldn't possibly be anyone who hasn't heard of, or played Baldur's Gate:laugh4:

Marcus Cornelius Marcellus

03-08-2010, 07:58

Subotan

03-08-2010, 09:48

And here I thought there couldn't possibly be anyone who hasn't heard of, or played Baldur's Gate:laugh4:
You have no idea. I know loads of people who do.

Fisherking

03-08-2010, 16:11

I am glad to see this is sparking some ongoing interest. We are at 44 pages at TWC and people just signing up there just to sign the petition. Very nice to see Kagemusha appear as well. This is the thing: there are so many great players and modders out there that have already moved on, CA can only play this dangerous game with their fans for so long. I for one would hate to see that happen.

Constant pressure is being applied over at CA, and will remain until they clarify their situation. Thanks to everyone for your concern! The word is spreading. It may be a trickle for now, but could end up a flood.

Best regards,

MCM

I can see where the development of mod tools could be a drain of resources and money for a company.

But since they are doing DLC anyway they could be released in the same fashion and produce revenue.

That is DLC people would pay a deal to get, even if released one type of editor at a time.

ReluctantSamurai

03-09-2010, 23:53

I can see where the development of mod tools could be a drain of resources and money for a company.

But if the response to Bioware's devoting time and money to such, it's a wise investment, IMHO. IIRC, a few of the really good modders for NWN eventually got onto Bioware's payroll either as consultants, beta testers, or designers. There were also a few of the design techniques used that made their way into the company's future releases.

I buy Bioware products sight unseen without even reading reviews because I know they produce good games, have excellent customer support and even if I'm less than overjoyed with the original release, I'll find plenty of mods later that satisfy me.

That is DLC people would pay a deal to get, even if released one type of editor at a time.

I'd hate to see that and I think it's totally unnecessary to generate funds, in the long run.