Britishness in the periphery

[Rhyfelwyr]

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[Centurion1]

^ how am i supposed to argue with that......

well done rhy.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Right now I'm so dissillusioned I've become West Saxon, screw the English.

Seriously.

[Strike For The South]

What about the muslims?

[Beskar]

I blame Mel Gibson's Braveheart for the rise in Scottish Nationalism.

Also, what is interesting, in 1960's or so, the only Welsh speaker was some random farmer in some out-back field, now, they are sticking Welsh language signs everywhere and actively teaching it in schools.

Though, there are a few things I don't get. Why don't we have a British football team? Why are all the football leagues different? In the Oylmpics, we are team GB, in the world cup, we are England, Scotland and Wales and N. Ireland.

[Justiciar]

Right now I'm so dissillusioned I've become West Saxon, screw the English.

Seriously.Good man. I'm all for English regionalism, within reason. Because no matter how bad everyone else is, they can't be worse than those bastards over the hill.

[gaelic cowboy]

Though, there are a few things I don't get. Why don't we have a British football team? Why are all the football leagues different? In the Oylmpics, we are team GB, in the world cup, we are England, Scotland and Wales and N. Ireland.

One word Tradition

[Beskar]

Everyone knows that the south is full of air-heads (I mean, who votes for Boris Johnson?) and limp-wristed accented wussies. While the burly men live in the north.

[johnhughthom]

I blame Mel Gibson's Braveheart for the rise in Scottish Nationalism.


Personally I've never met a Scot who doesn't loath that film.

[Furunculus]

I am well aware that there are English nationalists who decry the Union with what they see as the bloodsucking parasites on the periphery. I am not one of them.

I am British. I recognise that the Union has been immensely successful for its component nations. England brought industrial might, Wales some of our finest politicians, Scotland an empire expanding entrepeneurial class, and Ireland some of our finest literature.

But this is a family, and requires public commitment, not public spite to make it work.
I don't blame the SNP, I blame the Scottish Unionist parties (Cons & Lab & Lib-Dem) for a refusing a referendum on Scottish independence, where such a declaration of commitment to the family might be made, and as long as that is denied we are left with the acid drip-drip of spite which weakens the family commitment of all members.

And the junior partners need to remember what allowed Britain (as a whole) to make such a good fist of the sovereign nation state (when our continetal neighbours have made such a balls of it), is its inviolable island geography, which is partly the reason the Union exists in the first place; because England would not tolerate peripheral territories not under its sovereign control to be used as a spring-board for invasion by competing powers.

[al Roumi]

Good man. I'm all for English regionalism, within reason. Because no matter how bad everyone else is, they can't be worse than those bastards over the hill.

Indeed :laugh:

I'm all for regionalism, if there is such a problem as a lack of identity in the UK, a sense of belonging to something local would help in that. Plural identities needen't be a problem, IMO they add richness and depth to the Union -that goes for British Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Carribeans too.

[InsaneApache]

Good man. I'm all for English regionalism, within reason. Because no matter how bad everyone else is, they can't be worse than those bastards over the hill.

:stare: I know you live in Stockport sunny jim. :stare:

I lived in Scotland for a couple of years and I'm well aware how a lot of the Scots think about the English. I went up there a boy and came back to Manchester a hardened thug.

[Rhyfelwyr]

But this is a family, and requires public commitment, not public spite to make it work.
I don't blame the SNP, I blame the Scottish Unionist parties (Cons & Lab & Lib-Dem) for a refusing a referendum on Scottish independence, where such a declaration of commitment to the family might be made, and as long as that is denied we are left with the acid drip-drip of spite which weakens the family commitment of all members.


The problem with a referendum is over how it is phrased. If only two options are given (a simple yes/no), then the current majority opinion (more devolved power) may lean to the outright independence option. But if it is phrased with 3 options, then the more devolution option will probably win, and create more needless bureaucracy/politiicians.


:stare: I know you live in Stockport sunny jim. :stare:

I lived in Scotland for a couple of years and I'm well aware how a lot of the Scots think about the English. I went up there a boy and came back to Manchester a hardened thug.

I don't believe anti-Englishness can be that bad, simply because it is a middle-class phenomenon. Something like 12% of the Scottish population is either English born or has English parents, and the number of these that report discrimination is far less than that of other 'minority' groups. Source. (http://www.devolution.ac.uk/pdfdata/Briefing%2024%20-%20Hussain-Miller.pdf)

[Furunculus]

The problem with a referendum is over how it is phrased. If only two options are given (a simple yes/no), then the current majority opinion (more devolved power) may lean to the outright independence option. But if it is phrased with 3 options, then the more devolution option will probably win, and create more needless bureaucracy/politiicians.


i'm fine with in/out and damn the consequences. i'm only interested in the 'family' if the family is interested in me, and i say this as British Unionist.

[gaelic cowboy]

Britishness is becoming increasingly associated with Orangeism and sectarianism.

Yes a likely side effect of the "Were out here defending the empire from the Indians on the Frontier" Since the values of these people became intrinsically associated with symbols there cultural and political identity was at threat by its dilution at the core ie in London.


with these circumstances, I'm not sure what exactly the future of Britishness (or the union) is. Will it last, will it become purely a secondary identity, does it have the roots for a revival?

Britishness is both doomed and assured at the same time for two reasons the COE is no longer the force it was and newer people have come to UK see Britishness in a differant light to a Orangeman. Until Britishness delinks from Orangeism it will be indigestible for many ordinary people in the UK it smacks of religous intolerence and that is unacceptable to most people.

[Furunculus]

Britishness is both doomed and assured at the same time for two reasons the COE is no longer the force it was and newer people have come to UK see Britishness in a differant light to a Orangeman.
it might seem that way to a Mayo-man, but i'm not sure how much importance CoE is to the average 'mainlander'......

[gaelic cowboy]

it might seem that way to a Mayo-man, but i'm not sure how much importance CoE is to the average 'mainlander'......

Exactly thats what I meant it does not mean much any more at all so as a result Britishness needs and has evolved in the core while the regions which Rhyfelwyr was talking seen anachronistic in keeping that idea alive.

[KukriKhan]

British:
1) Stiff upper lip
2) Steely resolve in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds
3) When the chips are truly down, unity of effort among the diverse peoples - but in peacetime, loud and constant internal bickering
4) Seemingly DNA-level Inbred competition with the French
5) Quick wit

Stereotypes, I know. But I find at least 3 out of 5 applicable to every Brit I've met.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yes a likely side effect of the "Were out here defending the empire from the Indians on the Frontier" Since the values of these people became intrinsically associated with symbols there cultural and political identity was at threat by its dilution at the core ie in London.

Very true, and I think the fact that traditional Britishness exists now more in the regions has had the effect of leaving many feeling of the regional British feeling betrayed and sold out by London.


Britishness is both doomed and assured at the same time for two reasons the COE is no longer the force it was and newer people have come to UK see Britishness in a differant light to a Orangeman. Until Britishness delinks from Orangeism it will be indigestible for many ordinary people in the UK it smacks of religous intolerence and that is unacceptable to most people.

Indeed, although remember there are different connotations that come with different understandings of Britishness, both historically and in the present. The sense of Britishness associated with the rise of the welfare state was one aspect that played a big role in helping Scottish Catholics integrate into the British state. Also, as I understand things, in England, Britishness is seen as the more tolerant form of patriotism, due to it's idea of including the various peoples of Britain (as opposed to English nationalism which has been quite heavily associated with far-right views and racism etc)

[gaelic cowboy]

British:
1) Stiff upper lip
2) Steely resolve in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds
3) When the chips are truly down, unity of effort among the diverse peoples - but in peacetime, loud and constant internal bickering
4) Seemingly DNA-level Inbred competition with the French
5) Quick wit

Stereotypes, I know. But I find at least 3 out of 5 applicable to every Brit I've met.

You forgot tea drinker's " Ah put kettle on" is a refrain imprinted not at a genetic but the atomic level :smiley:

[Beskar]

Also forgot the gift of the understating. A precious which we are losing fast thanks to sensalism tabloid press.

Where are the days when a British Gentlemen gets stabbed by a sword through the heart and says "Oh my, it appears some one has just killed me."

[Louis VI the Fat]

And with these circumstances, I'm not sure what exactly the future of Britishness (or the union) is. Will it last, will it become purely a secondary identity, does it have the roots for a revival?The future of Celticism I do not know.

On a hunch, I think that Britishness will have a revival. Overt Scottish, Welsh, Norn Iron regionalism is a passing sentiment. Most Britons in the the end are British foremost, or at least British second but not at all willing to do away with that identity.


Slightly related, but timely, the Grauniad ran a good article on Englishness last week, that identity Britain had all but forgotten about
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/11/english-nationalism-fight

[johnhughthom]

Also forgot the gift of the understating. A precious which we are losing fast thanks to sensalism tabloid press.

Where are the days when a British Gentlemen gets stabbed by a sword through the heart and says "Oh my, it appears some one has just killed me."

That's not proper British understatement... A better response would be " Oh my, it appears I have taken a slight nick to the chest."

[Louis VI the Fat]

Dear oh dear, today´s uncouth British youngsters. :no:


Small wonder the empire got lost. What of the British tradition of apologising when somebody else steps on your shoes?

´Oh my. My chest seems to have inexcusably sheathed your sword, ever so sorry about that my dear chap.´

[Rhyfelwyr]

What of the British tradition of apologising when somebody else steps on your shoes?

You know, I actually did that on the subway the other day...

[naut]

Dear oh dear, today´s uncouth British youngsters. :no:


Small wonder the empire got lost. What of the British tradition of apologising when somebody else steps on your shoes?

´Oh my. My chest seems to have inexcusably sheathed your sword, ever so sorry about that my dear chap.´
I haven't been in the UK since 2005, and I still do that. :laugh4:

[Justiciar]

:stare: I know you live in Stockport sunny jim. :stare:You can't prove 'owt!

I'm Marpudlian. That's my excuse and I'm stickin' to it! :disguise:

[The Wizard]

As a bloody Continental, I wouldn't mind seeing the UK fall apart within my lifetime :smartass:


Everyone knows that the south is full of air-heads (I mean, who votes for Boris Johnson?) and limp-wristed accented wussies. While the burly men live in the north.

Now if only one could understand your incomprehensible little tongue

P.S. As a Dutchman I find Orangeism amusing as well.

[Pannonian]

Also forgot the gift of the understating. A precious which we are losing fast thanks to sensalism tabloid press.

Penny dreadfuls aren't unique to the 21st century.


Where are the days when a British Gentlemen gets stabbed by a sword through the heart and says "Oh my, it appears some one has just killed me."
"By God, I think I've lost my leg."
"By God, so you have."

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Everyone knows that the south is full of air-heads (I mean, who votes for Boris Johnson?) and limp-wristed accented wussies. While the burly men live in the north.


I'd like to point out that the Danelaw is full of illiterate, thieving, barbarian Pikies.

[Fisherking]

When you stop cueing you have lost all Britishness.

Understatement is an English thing...I don't think it is becoming of the Scots or and the Irish.

However, apologies? I think the Canadians have the market cornered there... They will apologize to a table for passing too near.

Regionalism is only a family argument, and as one Irish proverb goes; so long as you have family, you will never want for enemies.

[Louis VI the Fat]

This year's Six Nations will turn out to be between France and England.

As a question to all of our Island-dwelling friends, whom do you support? At least, whose triumph would leave you least miserable - the English re-affirming their Divine Right to rule over the entire British Isles, or the frogs showing the Irish and Scots how to keep the rosbifs down?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I would support England of course, they have supported us often enough in the World Cup.

Well, I would if it was football at least, I couldn't care less about such a poor excuse for a sport as rugby. :wink:

[Pannonian]

When you stop cueing you have lost all Britishness.


Snooker isn't as popular as it once was, but a lot of pubs and bars still have pool tables, so cueing isn't likely to die out just yet.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This year's Six Nations will turn out to be between France and England.

As a question to all of our Island-dwelling friends, whom do you support? At least, whose triumph would leave you least miserable - the English re-affirming their Divine Right to rule over the entire British Isles, or the frogs showing the Irish and Scots how to keep the rosbifs down?

Wel, as on Ingelischemon I wol cleve too mine fellow Engelonders.

I do so love mine own tongue!

[Furunculus]

This year's Six Nations will turn out to be between France and England.

As a question to all of our Island-dwelling friends, whom do you support? At least, whose triumph would leave you least miserable - the English re-affirming their Divine Right to rule over the entire British Isles, or the frogs showing the Irish and Scots how to keep the rosbifs down?

lol, england of course.

i do prefer the Lions games however.

[Subotan]

The British identity is a strange one. Waving the Union Flag or shouting "God Save the Queen" will get you funny looks from most Britons and the silent labelling of you by your community as a BNP member. It is most un-British to be vocal in your Britishness.

Multiple identities confuse the problem even more. It's OK to wave the Red Dragon or St. Andrew's Saltire, but it's more difficult with St. George's. That's a symptom of the root phenomenon mentioned in the initial post, the mistrust some English have with Celtic Nationalism.

To be English is to simultaneously be British; the two are near inseparable, and to denounce one is to denounce both. And yet in Scotland and Wales, there are British citizens expressing pride in their Celtic identity, seemingly at the expense of their British identity. Maybe some English are jealous of this, as to do the same to their English identity is impossible. Of course, there's probably a lot of "outsider" sentiment, as an English pensioner I met who disliked Scots for the sin of being Scottish clearly had.


British:
1) Stiff upper lip
2) Steely resolve in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds
3) When the chips are truly down, unity of effort among the diverse peoples - but in peacetime, loud and constant internal bickering
4) Seemingly DNA-level Inbred competition with the French
5) Quick wit

Stereotypes, I know. But I find at least 3 out of 5 applicable to every Brit I've met.
I identify with all of these (but then they may just be qualities that everyone likes to think he possesses). And yet I'm a half Catholic Irish, half Protestant Settler born in Belfast living in England. Does that make me British? Or does my background exclude me from being British? Or maybe I'm just half-British.

I've derived a series of identities for myself which I all consider myselef to be, and which are useful when dealing with the minefield that is extended Northern Irish Catholic family relations. I consider myself ethnically Irish but culturally British. I hold a passport for both (I hold the Irish one for the neutrality thing), and yet I identify primarily as a European, and that's how I answer when asked. Thanks to this complicated set up, I am hated by extremists of all the nationalities.


What of the British tradition of apologising when somebody else steps on your shoes?
Some of us are still carrying that particular torch. :yes: