Dutch Governmental Crisis [Archive]

Hax

02-20-2010, 01:33

Well, people, here we go! While most of you are uninterested in the current developments within the Netherlands, we are speaking of a true "kabinetscrisis", or "governmental crisis" right now.

What exactly is going on, then? Well here we go:

Back in November our Minister of Foreign Affairs, Maxime Verhagen, responded to a request from the NATO about the Netherlands possibly staying for a longer time in Uruzgan. However, minister Verhagen was not really in the position to even respond to the NATO and should have waited until there had been official correspondence between the NATO and the Netherlands.

Our current cabinet (which might not be so "current", actually) was formed through a coalition of three parties: The PVDA (Labor Party), the CDA (Christian Democratic Appeal) and the CU (Christian Union). Minister of Economy, Wouter Bos (a member of the PvdA) promised the electorate back in 2007(?) that the Netherlands would pull out of Afghanistan by 2010, and as such is quick to reject the NATO's request. The CDA and CU keep saying that "all options are still on the table" and do not want to deny the NATO's request out of hand.

More information available: here (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0219/breaking34.html), and here (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/02/ministers_locked_in_talks_over_1.php)

This is where things turned nasty. Minister Bos denied that he knew anything about a letter that the NATO's president had sent to the Dutch government, while minister Verhagen is continuously stating that Minister Bos knew all about this letter, this resulting in a dirty mudfight within the same coalition. Mr. Wilders and Mrs. Verdonk also came into Parliament yesterday calling Minister Bos a liar and other kind of things.

This governmental coalition, as of now, is completely falling apart. There is a general mistrust between the three ruling parties and I don't think that anyone, including themselves, take them seriously as a governmental coalition. They've totally succumbed to political infighting, this mainly due to the fact that we're having municipalitical elections in about two weeks.

Meanwhile, the Dutch papers NRC describe NATO's reactions as flabbergasted (http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2487703.ece/Nato_flabbergasted_by_Dutch_reaction_to_troop_request), and I think this means that the international community isn't really impressed with the behaviour of the Dutch.

Even if this governmental coalition (kabinet) doesn't fall tonight, it won't matter. It's gone way over its display until date. This won't work at all.

We'll see what will happen!

- Hax, still watching Dutch national television, listening to Dutch national radio and reading continuous updates on twitter.

The Wizard

02-20-2010, 01:45

The only thing I have to say for now is that I still wish the Second Chamber was more like the House of Commons.

Beskar

02-20-2010, 01:49

It would be really bad for Netherlands only MP to end up in prison too.

KukriKhan

02-20-2010, 01:55

The government promised parliament last year to decide on the military stay before March 1st, two days before municipal elections.

Both the government and parliament will be on recess next week, making this afternoon's cabinet council the last regular meeting before the March 1st deadline.

Quite a pickle. Who, or what body, in Dutch constitution/law is authorized and tasked with the decision to commit or not commit troops to some mission? Is the DepPM exceeding his authority?

Hax

02-20-2010, 02:00

Who, or what body, in Dutch constitution/law is authorized and tasked with the decision to commit or not commit troops to some mission? Is the DepPM exceeding his authority?

Well, Prime Minister Balkenende promised back in 2007 that in 2010 all Dutch soldiers would have returned to the Netherlands. Under the normal circumstances, there would be a parliamental debate concerning the possible options. I don't think the Dutch cabinet has the power to say "we'll stay" without informing parliament.

KukriKhan

02-20-2010, 02:20

Under the normal circumstances, there would be a parliamental debate concerning the possible options.

I see. Does the PM have the power to convene an extraordinary session of Parliament?

Fragony

02-20-2010, 02:39

Nothing to see here, move along. Coalition has nothing to worry about Dutch troops will stay in Uruzgan, this is just about elections.

Hax

02-20-2010, 02:56

Nothing to see here
:inquisitive:

move along
:inquisitive::inquisitive:

Riiiiiiiiiight

Fragony

02-20-2010, 03:01

Fragony

02-20-2010, 04:49

YAY, [removed by moderator] this sorry crap we call government just fell. No, this has no consequences internationally don't worry. But it's going to be slaughter in the commision/jobbies-factory that is the dutch labour party, less to spend, less to feed on, this is ball.

The muslim community are now my allies, or did the left really think anybody is waiting for the types of Ramadan and Fawaz, they are scared silly.

Mr Wilders, do your thing, take away the pain

PVDA, I want my money back
CDA, stop being so interested in knowing where I was when and with who and why
CU, none of your business what 12 year old pubic hair looks like, you perverts
SCREW YOU BYE

Best news ever.

KukriKhan

02-20-2010, 15:37

Even if this governmental coalition (kabinet) doesn't fall tonight, it won't matter. It's gone way over its display until date. This won't work at all.

Looks like our Hax wins the prize for early prediction of a fallen gov't. Well played, Sir.

The Wizard

02-20-2010, 15:41

I am actually unsure what to think of all this. Elation at the fall of a Christian-dominated abomination of a cabinet, with the soulless Labor Party tagging along to taste power again; or dismay that the next PM of our country might very well be Geert Wilders?

Quite a pickle. Who, or what body, in Dutch constitution/law is authorized and tasked with the decision to commit or not commit troops to some mission? Is the DepPM exceeding his authority?

The Second Chamber, or lower house (equivalent to the British Commons). A coalition government, which under normal circumstances is supported by a coalition of parties in parliament, can propose legislation to do so. The executive branch of government is part of the legislative, hence the confusion.

Beskar

02-20-2010, 15:49

Looks like our Hax wins the prize for early prediction of a fallen gov't. Well played, Sir.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8525742.stm

Wow, Hax is really on the ball of Dutch politics.

Fragony

02-20-2010, 17:03

You don't understand enough of Dutch politics.

our country might very well be Geert Wilders?

Not likely, he already gave a so so called blanket voice for a CDA-VVD coalition, will be hard to refuse without making some consessions.

The Wizard

02-20-2010, 17:12

You mean a minority government?

KukriKhan

02-20-2010, 19:36

I am actually unsure what to think of all this. Elation at the fall of a Christian-dominated abomination of a cabinet, with the soulless Labor Party tagging along to taste power again; or dismay that the next PM of our country might very well be Geert Wilders?

The Second Chamber, or lower house (equivalent to the British Commons). A coalition government, which under normal circumstances is supported by a coalition of parties in parliament, can propose legislation to do so. The executive branch of government is part of the legislative, hence the confusion.

I see. The Queen (vacationing in Austria, from reports) still has to bless all this? Or is that just perfunctory?

The Wizard

02-20-2010, 19:41

Not in the least, the Dutch monarch has the most extensive set of powers of any remaining king or queen in a democracy. She has been recalled from her vacation to accept the cabinet's resignation, at which point the government will be demissionary. She will again play a major role in determining the outcome of the elections, because it is the queen who appoints the person leading coalition talks.

Louis VI the Fat

02-20-2010, 22:19

Ritual dance, this government is always in crisis. Do you really think we are going to pull out of Afghanistan, that isn't possible and everybody knows it. So they talk a little, have a row, make up, and everything stays exactly like it is.

edit: keyword will be 'combat mission', pvda doesn't like it, and they will find a new word for exactly the same thing, Koenders gets some more money for schools, presto no more crisis.Twenty minutes later, Fragony's government collapses...

:cheerleader: http://failopages.wordpress.com/fail-gallery/ :cheerleader:

OwneD pwnED OwnEd !!1!!1one!!

https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3600/failownedwaterfail.jpg

https://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2882/owned9wz.jpg

https://img380.imageshack.us/i/owned9wz.jpg/

KukriKhan

02-20-2010, 23:01

Mercy, I plead. Poor Fragony, a perfectly fine citizen, minding his own business, paying his taxes, now has no government, yet no one asked him. His life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness is in the hands of a Queen for whom he has expressed disdain. C'mon over to Texas, my friend. You'll like it there.

Tellos Athenaios

02-21-2010, 00:03

This is going to be ... interesting. Perhaps the PvdA (Social Democrats) is going to lose hard against GroenLinks (Green Left) and SP (Socialist Party); but what I am curious about: will VVD (Liberals in name only) get ripped to shreds for not being PVV nor CDA? And will D66 (Liberals in all but name) regain significance?

The upshot of such a scenario might very well end up in a more left wing coalition, or a humiliating backseat for PVV. Just imagine the amusing political marriages that might follow: a coalition of Pvda + left wing party + D66 because they need a majority and D66 needs some stage time? Or of two left wing parties? Or for a more sadistic form of entertainment: PVV with CDA and VVD with yet another PM-ship for Mr Balkenende? PVV won't be large enough to claim PM ship and if they're savvy they won't fall for the trap of being very much second in command but responsible nonetheless.

... Best of all yet: I get to vote!

The Wizard

02-21-2010, 01:06

Tellos, D66 has already stated they will remain in the opposition. Labor will get slaughtered, hopefully so hard they'll never recover. The Socialist'll get halved. Don't count on anything even remotely leftist in the government any time soon, unless the polls start changing radically from what they've looked like for the last year or so.

According the polls I've seen, the likeliest candidate for the next coalition government seems to be CDA + VVD + PVV. According to the latest polls (peil.nl) that'd get a combined total of 74 seats. That'd mean they'd need a fourth party: enter Rita Verdonk. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: the most right-wing government in Dutch political history.

I'll start planning my emigration

Tellos Athenaios

02-21-2010, 01:34

Well we have seen the VVD get slaughtered by the CDA just because the VVD voters feared for the PvdA to join government. Not that it helped much. Now they'd get slaughtered by both CDA and PVV, probably. But the thing is: CDA and PVV is not exactly a match made in heaven, and neither party will be quite large enough to join with VVD to become a coalition. I imagine that when it comes down to it a broad coalition of left wing parties + D66 stands more chance at actually governing (slightly less infighting) than does the other side of the fence, mainly because of the PVV. (It does not exactly go down well with other parties, and does not seem especially willing either, and Verdonk isn't too well versed in the art of compromises and tact either.)

I am somewhat skeptical about the great slaughter of Labour. On the one hand I certainly remember that they got in on an inflated seat count just 'cause people were fed up with the most right wing government since a while. How quickly that was forgotten by the “oh noes: leftists loonies everywhere” side of political spectrum (who were voted out of office and out of politics). But on the other hand: what alternative is there for people that Mr Wilders does not agree with? And how strongly do these people disagree with PVV? If they are sufficiently motivated to put a stop to him, I'd say the PvdA might get spared or at least a second chance Voter turnout in areas such as Feyenoord isn't the best in the country but if those people want to make a point by vote they have amply demonstrated in the past that they can and will; and that they don't necessarily choose wisely (remembers Leefbaar Nederland, oh the drama). Voter turnout will be key, I guess it will be fairly high because of how Balkenende (cabinet) has become synonymous with Failure & Dissatisfaction (tm).

D66 said they'd want to be opposition but they are known to be susceptible to the lure of office. ~;)

Either way it is probably going to be a fairly broad coalition.

The Wizard

02-21-2010, 01:54

No, D66 will not return to office. Their last foray was an absolute disaster and they remember that.

Labor will get slaughtered. The only question is to what extent. Three years ago, I recall a sickeningly smug Wouter Bos clearly stating he would "never" join with Balkenende; a little while later the coalition with the CDA was a fact. For three years, the party's sold its soul and has time and time again been exposed as nothing but a party of powermongering career bureaucrats. It's disgusting. Now Bos has blown up the government in the middle of a crisis. It will get slaughtered pal, don't you worry. And Lord, will it be glorious. There are no limits to the extent of my hatred for that party.

You ask what alternatives there are for Wilders-hating people. Oh, well, maybe D66? Or GreenLeft? Or any bloody party which has actually made any work whatsoever of opposing him?

Oh, and the CDA is a match made in heaven with any side of the political spectrum, as long as it gets them in power. Christian democrats to the fullest.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the right-wing coalition I described, which according to current polls will have a tiny, tiny majority in parliament, is the only mildly workable coalition that is possible. There is no other coalition that can be formed which will not consist of several mutually incompatible parties. We'll get Balkenende IV, only even worse. The Netherlands'll start looking like Israel with its coalition governments, God help us all.

Tellos Athenaios

02-21-2010, 02:09

Mildly workable? PVV doesn't want Ton -- made that quite clear in the past. PVV doesn't want CDA either and vice versa. VVD will be happy to bend over 3 different ways, that's for sure. But how will a PVV/CDA combo be so fundamentally different from PvdA/CDA except for the fact that PvdA is utterly pragmatic and the PVV has yet to prove itself? I got the impression that PVV wanted to either rule or not be in government since it is all too well aware that the kiss of CDA is the kiss of death to political integrity and voter support.

Fragony

02-21-2010, 04:43

I must have one of these mood but LOL@Louis, yeah he got me

Fragony

02-21-2010, 04:56

You mean a minority government?

Let's say the PVV gets the seats that are predicted, they won't have the time to fill them up with competent people. So the PVV backs the VVD-CDA coalition without delivering any ministers. The CDA-VVD coalition is 'tolerated' to get the seats, but must make a haul to the right. The PVV purely as an ideological force, I think everybody can live with that. They did something similar in Denmark. The PVV isn't ready to govern they don't have enough competent people, they have the right idea though and the popular support, perfect solution for everybody. The greens will be fine with their views on animal rights, the socialists will be satisfied with the money that goes to the elder, the liberals will be able to make their tax cuts, and the christians simply want to govern no matter what or why.

Edit: maybe a D66 VVD PVV coalition is possible. That would be great, D66 is keeping their door open, who would have thoughtloll. That would be the best for the country. Doubt the PVV is all to happy with them after everything that happened but sometimes you just have to swallow it and accept dirty play.

http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Politiek/258789/PVV-D66-en-VVD-klaar-voor-regeringsdeelname.htm

Shame on you D66 for being so pragmatic, we do not forget. But welcome when wanting to be welcomed, we will just forget your stand on the Armenian genocide to cater the Grey Wolves.

idiots.

edit, no that is a bad idea D66 is too unreliable, they have no idea's of their own. Shame because the people who vote for them usually do.

Tellos Athenaios

02-21-2010, 14:17

idiots.

edit, no that is a bad idea D66 is too unreliable, they have no idea's of their own. Shame because the people who vote for them usually do.

Yes I think you hit the nail on the head there. D66 is in principle a splendid party on political compass issues and so on. If it were not for their politicians: you just can't bear it to vote for their politicians because every single thing about a soulless labour applies equally and more forcefully on them.

The Wizard

02-21-2010, 14:36

Yes, very soulless, that's why they're the only party who've actually opposed Wilders on anything... ~:rolleyes: Drag your head out of the sands people, the days of Balkenende III are far behind us, the damage Lousewies van der Laan did to the party has been repaired. D66 has many ideas and they are considerably better than those of any other party; moreover, on multiple instances Pechtold has stated he does not seek to take part in any government, knowing full well the party's electoral history following such forays and seeing the success he's had in the opposition.

Edit: maybe a D66 VVD PVV coalition is possible. That would be great, D66 is keeping their door open, who would have thoughtloll. That would be the best for the country. Doubt the PVV is all to happy with them after everything that happened but sometimes you just have to swallow it and accept dirty play.

http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Politiek/258789/PVV-D66-en-VVD-klaar-voor-regeringsdeelname.htm

Shame on you D66 for being so pragmatic, we do not forget. But welcome when wanting to be welcomed, we will just forget your stand on the Armenian genocide to cater the Grey Wolves.

idiots.

edit, no that is a bad idea D66 is too unreliable, they have no idea's of their own. Shame because the people who vote for them usually do.

Erm... Elsevier quotes nobody from D66 to substantiate its claim that the party is "ready to take part in government". All I've read so far, on D66's site as well as nu.nl, is that D66 is "ready for the elections", a major difference. As of yet I have heard nothing whatsoever intimating that D66 even thinks of joining with the PVV, a concept that is laughable. And "no ideas of their own" :laugh4: You're stuck in the times of Balkenende III, times have changed.

Fragony

02-21-2010, 14:38

Yes I think you hit the nail on the head there. D66 is in principle a splendid party on political compass issues and so on. If it were not for their politicians: you just can't bear it to vote for their politicians because every single thing about a soulless labour applies equally and more forcefully on them.

The D66 voters are certainly something to be envied, but I think they got it wrong regardless. Direct democracy is still an issue even for them today, but their politicians have abandoned it. Much better of at the PVV imho but that sadly won't happen.

The Wizard

02-21-2010, 14:47

http://www.d66.nl/gemeenten/item/kwaliteit_van_overheid

4. Democratie: duidelijker scheiden uitvoerende en controlerende macht. Direct kiezen van bestuurders als burgemeesters en de premier. Met referenda om de overheid te corrigeren als het toch mis gaat

Translation: 4. Democracy: a clearer separation between executive and legislative (lit. "controlling") branches. Direct election of executives like mayors and the prime minister. With referenda to correct the government if things go wrong anyhow.

Nuff said.

Fragony

02-21-2010, 14:54

You don't like the PVV, but are you ok with the PVV just bringing in the seats and leave the rest to the VVD and CDA if certain conditions are met, a general move to the right, see it as the people tribune.

The Wizard

02-21-2010, 18:51

I'm not okay with any government that right-wing or conservative.

The Stranger

02-21-2010, 20:58

i say make wilders prime minister... well be rid of him in no time.

besides that... i dont really like politics... therefor i think ill become a politician.

Fragony

02-21-2010, 22:16

I'm not okay with any government that right-wing or conservative.

But that is what you are going to get, let's see how it goes, left will win popular support again if we screw up but we deserve the chance.

Andres

02-22-2010, 11:19

Kralizec

02-22-2010, 12:38

[snip]Rita Verdonk.

Haha, I didn't see Verdonk's movement/party going anywhere since the beginning. If she gets more seats than the SGP, she should be happy.

...

Fragony might get a seizure when he reads this, but I have my hopes set on a purple coalition. I don't like Labour, but then again, I dislike the CDA even more. It would probably take a fourth party (beyond Labour and the two liberal parties) to get a majority, though.
My actual vote...either VVD or D66.

Fragony

02-22-2010, 13:54

Also dislike the CDA but we might need them

Sarmatian

02-22-2010, 14:33

If you get one more government to fall in the next 5 years, we'll accept you as a Balkan nation. C'mon guys, don't give up now, you're nearly there.

Kralizec

02-22-2010, 14:34

The change in climate would be most welcome :yes:

Louis VI the Fat

02-22-2010, 15:09

If you get one more government to fall in the next 5 years, we'll accept you as a Balkan nation.Remarkably instable indeed.

I'm with Kralizec. The Netherlands ought to return to the Grand Coalition. The experiment was very succesful. The formula proved its worth too in Belgium, Germany, and, slightly related, but fitting in the same pattern of European politics a decade ago, in French cohabitation.

Haha, I didn't see Verdonk's movement/party going anywhere Did I mention yet that Verdonk - the leader of another other Dutch anti-immigration party - is a mixed raced Indo-European? :book:

Edit: which is, in fact, very interesting, and not merely a triviality. One would be surprised to what extent, and in which shape, post-colonial history haunts all of Europe still.
I have learned that any exploration of this topic leads to very hateful posts and thread lockage, so I shall not expand on it.

Fragony

02-22-2010, 15:43

That isn't a topic, you just can't accept that.

The Stranger

02-22-2010, 16:09

omg frag you're such a spammer... 15000 posts... gee...

on topic. i hope wilders becomes PM... I will have such a great time.

Fragony

02-22-2010, 17:26

It sure will be more entertaining, say what you want but he's extremely funny at times. But pretty unlikely, CDA will get more seats when it comes down to it.

Hax

02-22-2010, 17:41

I would like to see this: Alexander Pechtold as formator, and then a coalition of D66/GroenLinks/SP or D66/GroenLinks/PvdA.

Fragony

02-22-2010, 17:51

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/picardheadeskt.jpg

Pechtold, with his empty eyes in his doll-face, D66 has some good people in their ranks though.

liberals could aslo team up, GL, D66, VVD wouldn't be a total disaster if they keep throwing the greens some carrots.

But best would be PVV, CDA, VVD, and the PVV stays on the background to keep them in check. SO basicly CDA, VVD with backing from the PVV.

The Stranger

02-22-2010, 20:46

Fragony

02-22-2010, 21:24

glad you are catching up so fast, and you almost got it right

The Wizard

02-22-2010, 22:20

Here's something Frag'll love: the NRC was speculating that one of the likeliest coalitions will be...

Wait for it...

Paars III! PvdA, VVD and D66 reunion! With GreenLeft as new guy on the block :laugh4:

(To be frank I'll be just as excited to see a second consecutive government with Labor in it :furious: )

If you get one more government to fall in the next 5 years, we'll accept you as a Balkan nation. C'mon guys, don't give up now, you're nearly there.

Trust me, with the formation we're about to get, we're going down that road quick.

I have learned that any exploration of this topic leads to very hateful posts and thread lockage, so I shall not expand on it.

Then why mention it at all?

EDIT: I see a lot of people still seem to be living in the pre-2009 world... we won't have a cabinet with just three parties in it anymore, people. Not with no party polling more than 30 seats. Expect the most difficult formation ever and a big unwieldy coalition that will possibly be worse off than Balkenende IV.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-22-2010, 23:26

Sounds like the Knesset.

Louis VI the Fat

02-22-2010, 23:26

Then why mention it at all? Because I will not be intimidated into silence?

You may all shout it down, but the Dutch are not the only ones reading this forum. The rest of the world might find it interesting that both the spiritual father of the modern Dutch anti-immigration movement, Bolkestein, and the leaders of the two current 'mainstream' anti-immigration parties, Wilders and Verdonk, are all mixed-race Eurasians, with remarkably similar personal backgrounds in Dutch decolonisation and repatriatrion.
The rest of Europe knows similar phenomena and groups too. There, they mostly do play a visible part in the national conscious. (But not all of them)

Europe's largest group of immigrants are, surprisingly, the 'invisible immigrants'. It is in these groups that some of the most vehement bitterness about later immigration resides. The invisibles immigrated under traumatic circumstances, were treated with nothing but indifference, sometimes contempt. This on top of a sense of 'betrayal by the motherland', followed by involuntary displacement. Yet despite this, or because of this, they made themselves invisible, by assimilation, hard work, social succes. Their identity is to be more 'X' than the 'native X' themselves.
Then the later waves of immigrants came. Not very long after. a decade, two decades. These people, entirely alien to the receiving country, were warmly welcomed, with lavish subsidies, housing, social security. But these groups did anything but make themselves invisible. They are alarmingly overrepresented in crime, unemployment, low education statistics. To add insult to injury, these new groups combine with hostility towards the host nation.

This discrepancy is the source of much anger and discontent in the groups of the 'invisibles'. That most of this comes as a complete surprise to the Dutch was explained in the other thread too. Taboos and a culture of silence can be so strong that some things remain virtually unknown.

I understand that none of this is at all a matter of Dutch public debate. Nor does it explain at all what is going on in the Netherlands. Or whatever other non-relevant criticism is levelled at the above.
It does exist in sociology and anthropolgy. Or, alternatively, try Houellebecq.

The Wizard

02-22-2010, 23:27

The point was it seemed rather, well, trollish to just throw that out there and then say "but I won't discuss it!", Louis. That's all.

In any case, we've been over this at great length, you know my opinion (and that of all Dutchmen here), we know yours. I'm not going to derail this thread over it.

Sounds like the Knesset.

My thoughts exactly.

Fragony

02-23-2010, 04:30

Louis I wonder why you are so madly in love with your theory, you are not on to something give it a rest it's annoying.

lol https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/forum100220_620.jpg

more lol, can we do it as well https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/AdolfPechtold_gr.jpg

striking ressemblance

Fragony

02-23-2010, 12:13

Tellos Athenaios

02-23-2010, 15:47

I'll go and pack then. I can't sing Wilhelmus. I couldn't care less about that affront to the ears either. <_<

Seriously: as far as I am concerned anybody who's arranged for an occupation/study/etc. in the Netherlands is welcome to move over and make the place a bit better. No compulsory courses to attend for me; although municipalities should continue to offer them to those who want it.

Hax

02-23-2010, 16:31

Fragony: Yes, because Alexander Pechtold is inciting hatred all the time. Especially against Islam.

Oh wait no, I was confused with a certain politician from Venlo.

Fragony

02-23-2010, 16:42

Fragony: Yes, because Alexander Pechtold is inciting hatred all the time.

Yes, he does that all the time. Racist, extreme right, we are millions. Only when he isn't though, I doubt he will lure many Armenians very soon since he got cozy with the grey wolves. You know the grey wolves right, Turkish ultra-nationalists. He also likes to beat up his employees, nice guy. Also corrupt, as Leiden remembers from his time he spend there as the APPOINTED mayor. Do they have an opinion on anything anyway, except on Wilders, never heard one.

Hax

02-23-2010, 16:45

Nice way to go all slandering there, Fragony.Completely disregarding political skills and eloquence. You can sign up for the PVV right now!

Oh wait, no, you can't.

Fragony

02-23-2010, 16:53

Nice way to go all slandering there, Fragony.Completely disregarding political skills and eloquence. You can sign up for the PVV right now!.

Political skill, saying racist isn't that hard.

It isn't slander, D66 refused to take a stand in the Armenian genocide last elections to draw in Turkish voters, fact. Pechtold not beating his employees, ask Boris van der Ham. Got major wrong though he was just in council, confused him with the appointed major of Nijmegen Thom de Graaf. Do you know why D66 was founded? Direct democracy, a chosen major. But not when you can become major of course. About Leiden here's a nice rundown http://www.standejong.nl/2008/12/05/het-duistere-verleden-van-alexander-pechtold/

The Wizard

02-23-2010, 17:09

Yes, he does that all the time. Racist, extreme right, we are millions. Only when he isn't though, I doubt he will lure many Armenians very soon since he got cozy with the grey wolves. You know the grey wolves right, Turkish ultra-nationalists. He also likes to beat up his employees, nice guy. Also corrupt, as Leiden remembers from his time he spend there as the APPOINTED mayor. Do they have an opinion on anything anyway, except on Wilders, never heard one.

When did he ever excuse any Turkish racism? Wasn't that Labor? Or the SP? Sources please.

Fragony

02-23-2010, 17:12

When did he ever excuse any Turkish racism? Wasn't that Labor? Or the SP? Sources please.

http://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/nederland/article1418588.ece

And don't put words in my mouth, I never said he excuses Turkish racism, I said he catered Turkish ultra-nationalists to lure Turkish votes.

No not labor they cater the Maroccans, Maroccans hate the Turks and it's mutual, didn't you know. And the SP is just anit-sematic scum just like their spriritual predecessors from 39-45, they will get in anyones bed.

HoreTore

02-23-2010, 17:15

striking ressemblance

Where?:inquisitive:

The Wizard

02-23-2010, 17:15

HoreTore

02-23-2010, 17:18

:laugh4:

Oh, Frag, you really are like the PVV. You're basing yourself on what the Turkish government says about D66, not what D66 says itself. Moreover, it's not even sure the mail was ever sent. Even if it were, is D66 to blame for what Turkey did? Nope. Honestly, stop the hysterical pro-Wilders anti-everything else posts, they remind me too much of Wilders himself. And of Tea Party activists in the US. And Sarah Palin.

So.... The problem with the dutch government is that they've been too busy playing Doungeons&Dragons instead of paying attention to what's going on in the world? Right?

The Wizard

02-23-2010, 17:23

I blame the elves. :elf:

Hax

02-23-2010, 17:25

Political skill, saying racist isn't that hard.

Neither is blaming Islam for just about everything.

It isn't slander, D66 refused to take a stand in the Armenian genocide last elections to draw in Turkish voters, fact.

This is truthful and I think the effects of it clearly showed in the last elections. That doesn't make Alexander Pechtold comparable to Adolf Hitler, though.

About Leiden here's a nice rundown http://www.standejong.nl/2008/12/05/...nder-pechtold/ (http://www.standejong.nl/2008/12/05/het-duistere-verleden-van-alexander-pechtold/)

Yes, I think there are enough comments beneath the post to respond to this.."proof".

Slandering politicians for personal gain is not a something new, you should know that.

Fragony

02-23-2010, 17:30

:laugh4:

Oh, Frag, you really are like the PVV. You're basing yourself on what the Turkish government says about D66, not what D66 says itself. Moreover, it's not even sure the mail was ever sent. Even if it were, is D66 to blame for what Turkey did? Nope. Honestly, stop the hysterical pro-Wilders anti-everything else posts, they remind me too much of Wilders himself. And of Tea Party activists in the US. And Sarah Palin.

I am repeating what Trouw says, aren't you picky when it comes to quality media.

So you are assuming they took that position for a different reason, and you consider communication a la 'you say this and we will do that' unlikely? You that naive?

Neither is blaming Islam for just about everything.

You can keep repeating that but he doesn't do that, you are talking to your reflexes.

The Wizard

02-23-2010, 17:33

Beskar

02-23-2010, 17:34

Where?:inquisitive:

Being honest, even having wearing the same hat, toothbrush mustache and a nosejob, they don't look too similar either.

https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/930/adolfpechtoldgr.jpg

Tellos Athenaios

02-23-2010, 17:42

Hardly. At least one comment at that story punts the idea that she was actually instigator of a motion to request that the Netherlands pressures Turkey to recognize the genocide. Dunno about that but that's a different spin for sure.
Waar Koser Kaya nauwelijks voor uit durft te komen, al helemaal niet in de weken voorafgaand aan de verkiezingen, is dat zij zelf eind 2005 "de [Nederlandse] regering verzocht om met Turkije voortdurend en nadrukkelijk de erkenning van de Armeense genocide aan de orde te stellen". Die kamerbreed gesteunde motie stond in het kader van een politieke dialoog met het oog op de toetredingsonderhandelingen tussen Turkije en de EU. Ergo: ook Fatma wilde dat de Nederlandse regering bij de Turkse "de erkenning van de Armeense genocide aan de orde stelde". Maar sinds Fatma ontdekte dat ze meer stemmen kon winnen met het *niet* eisen dat Turkije de Armeense genocide erkent, sprak ze publiekelijk andere taal en zweeg ze over deze motie. In de weken voorafgaand aan de verkiezingen heb ik haar herhaaldelijk ter verantwoording geroepen over het ondertekenen ervan, maar Fatma gaf geen antwoord. Tot 24 uur voor verkiezingsdag, toen ze wist dat geen negatieve publiciteit haar meer kon bedreigen. Sneu.

Hannes Minkema, Amsterdam op 10-12-2006, 11:02

Anyway SP's “spiritual predecessors” are Maoist; didn't you know? http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoïsme

Fragony

02-23-2010, 17:50

No, I'm repeating what Trouw says, you're repeating something entirely different of which I'm not sure where it comes from. The most you can say is that D66 was ambiguous (in 2006, we're going on four years later now) on a subject that is a pretty clear-cut case.

Just gave you the best link since you have so much truth in quality media, as I said, last elections, they were in 2006. Why do you think they put that :daisy: on their list, you seem to think because it draws in the liberals. Said it before, I have a lot of sympathie for the lower regions of D66, but what represents them in the parliament should be tarred and feathered. What are they going to do with these votes anyway, if there is anything we can be absolutely sure of with D66 is that they will betray every principle they say to have.

edt: don't ask me any link in the future as it's a waste of time.

Anyway SP's “spiritual predecessors” are Maoist; didn't you know? http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoïsme

Don't care what they call it.

HoreTore

02-23-2010, 18:17

Being honest, even having wearing the same hat, toothbrush mustache and a nosejob, they don't look too similar either.

https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/930/adolfpechtoldgr.jpg

I'm having a hard time finding a single feature on those two that match....

Beskar

02-23-2010, 18:23

I'm having a hard time finding a single feature on those two that match....

The frown is similar, apart from the hat and nose, which was photoshopped onto the picture. That is it. The dutch guy has no chin, compared the obvious one Hitler has. Different hair, different ears. The eyes on the dutch guy are set higher and more forward. Etc etc.

HoreTore

02-23-2010, 18:26

The frown is similar

Nah.... The guy on the left looks like he's frowning... Hitler looks more like he's pausing between words in a speech or something...

The Stranger

02-23-2010, 19:28

Yep, elections coming up

KICK CRIMINAL IMMIGRANTS OUT OF THE COUNTRY (VVD)
HARDER PUNISHMENT FOR CRIMINAL MUSLIM YOUTHS (CDA)
NO ENTRY UNLESS YOU CAN SING THE COMPLETE WILHELMUSlol it's 10 minutes long or so (CDA)
LEARN THE LANGUAGE (all)

etc etc etc

Ah, labour calls for a cordon sanitaire, blunder numero quazillion

haha that is so ridiculous...

95% of the entire population of Holland doesnt know the entire wilhelmus.
and the questions asked on the "inburgeringscursus" are mostly obsolete too...

and the harder punishment for muslim youth is purely discriminating... and it wont even solve the problem because most of these youth are not even muslim in anything but name and stereotype. all you have to do is prove you are not muslim...

im looking forward to the elections. i think holland will enjoy its finist 4 years. I've even come up with a name already for my countermovement. Vitriol. nah thats not it... but youll hear it soon.

The Wizard

02-23-2010, 20:17

Just gave you the best link since you have so much truth in quality media

And I just told you you're misreading and misquoting it, if you even read it in the first place. One look at Tellos's post says enough.

Fragony

02-23-2010, 20:23

Wij van WC eend http://plein66.nl/users/show_profile/1904-hannes-minkema

The Wizard

02-23-2010, 20:26

Fragony

02-23-2010, 20:29

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/Odomaris/memes/1191265801867.jpg

Even if he were a D66 foot soldier for crying out loud, so what? The motion's still there, and you're still misquoting Trouw :dizzy2:

Die campagne begon nadat CDA en PvdA drie Turken van de kandidatenlijst hadden afgehaald, omdat ze de Armeense genocide van 1915 niet wilden erkennen. D66-leider Alexander Pechtold liet Koser Kaya vrij over de Armeense genocide. D66 kreeg drie zetels, Koser Kaya stond op nummer zes maar haalde toch het parlement met ruim 34.000 voorkeurstemmen.

I do? How

HoreTore

02-23-2010, 20:31

Tellos Athenaios

02-23-2010, 20:38

Is a quote from Trouw, isn't Fragony.

"This campaign begun after CDA and PvdA removed 3 Turkish candidates from the list of candidates as they refused to acknowledge the Armenian genocide of 1915. D66 leader Alexander Pechtold let off Koser Kaya regarding the Armenian genocide. D66 (subsequently) achieved 3 seats, yet Koser Kaya who was ranked number 6 on the list made it into parliament with 34000 preferential votes."

Fragony

02-23-2010, 20:40

Is a quote from Trouw, isn't Fragony.

"This campaign started after CDA and PvdA had stripped 3 Turkish candidates from the list of candidates since they refused to acknowledge the Armenian genocide of 1915. D66 leader Alexander Pechtold let off Koser Kaya regarding the Armenian genocide. D66 (subsequently) achieved 3 seats, yet Koser Kaya who was ranked number 6 on the list made it into parliament with 34000 preferential votes."

Yeah the one saying what I said, title should have been sufficient though

The Wizard

02-23-2010, 22:26

Die campagne begon nadat CDA en PvdA drie Turken van de kandidatenlijst hadden afgehaald, omdat ze de Armeense genocide van 1915 niet wilden erkennen. D66-leider Alexander Pechtold liet Koser Kaya vrij over de Armeense genocide. D66 kreeg drie zetels, Koser Kaya stond op nummer zes maar haalde toch het parlement met ruim 34.000 voorkeurstemmen.

I do? How

Because all it says is that D66 as a party was ambiguous, it goes on to say that the Turkish government claims D66 supports the Turkish version of events, no member of D66 is quoted anywhere. Later on even the VVD throws doubt on the e-mail even existing. You're presenting it as if Pechtold went out and publicly said "the Armenian genocide is :daisy:", which never happened and never will. Koser Kaya herself even condemns it.

Fragony

02-24-2010, 04:13

We will just have to go on the results then, a completely unknown politician getting 34.000 favor votes, out of nothing. Nothing to see here, move along.

The Stranger

02-24-2010, 10:28

i no longer get it...

i think ill run for presidente next year.

The Wizard

02-25-2010, 00:24

We will just have to go on the results then, a completely unknown politician getting 34.000 favor votes, out of nothing. Nothing to see here, move along.

And how exactly is it this to blame on Koser Kaya and D66 again? Or do they have secret connections to the inner circles of the Turkish government now, too?

Fragony

02-25-2010, 03:13

And how exactly is it this to blame on Koser Kaya and D66 again? Or do they have secret connections to the inner circles of the Turkish government now, too?

It's all in the article, more on blogs.

edit, another nice one THE ENEMY IS IS WITHIN OUR BORDERS (he's refering to criminal muslim youth) VVD

The Wizard

02-26-2010, 14:14

No it isn't, as I have tried to explain to you this past page. You know, you shouldn't expect much when you post something that doesn't support your views as a source.

Fragony

02-26-2010, 14:27

No it isn't, as I have tried to explain to you this past page. You know, you shouldn't expect much when you post something that doesn't support your views as a source.

Not if I said what you say I said. But does if it says what I said: D66 catered Turkish nationalists to draw Turkish votes.

D66 let Koser Kaya take the official stance of the Turkish government, people were killed but no genocide. They were rewarded by Turkish organizations with telling Turks to vote D66.

more, http://www.elsevier.nl/web/1098177/Dossiers/Verkiezingen-2006/De-Armeense-genocide-kwestie/Turken-voeren-actief-campagne-voor-D66.htm

You got some reading to do

http://www.elsevier.nl/web/1093430/Dossiers/Verkiezingen-2006/De-Armeense-genocide-kwestie/Genocide-Turkije-woedend-op-PvdA,-CDA.htm

http://www.elsevier.nl/web/10103886/Dossiers/Verkiezingen-2006/De-Armeense-genocide-kwestie/Ophef-over-D66-stemadvies-Turks-ministerie.htm

"De e-mail is verstuurd vanaf het Turkse ministerie van Algemene Zaken. Volgens NOVA is de afzender een adviseur van de Turkse minister van Religieuze Zaken die zich ook bezighoudt met kwesties rondom Turken in het buitenland. "

Not a single rectification, nothing see here, move along

The Wizard

02-26-2010, 14:34

Sigh. Again: the Trouw article you cite merely states that the Turkish government (allegedly, even the VVD doubts it) said to vote D66. Furthermore it says D66 remained ambiguous on the issue, no more. This is a very far cry from your claims that Pechtold (who is not even mentioned in the article!) denies the article. Read before you cry wolf.

Your Elsevier article is the same. Once again nothing about Pechtold, and a lot about Turkish organizations. Again the only thing you can criticize is D66's ambiguity. Not any true anti-Armenian, pro-Turkish comments. Please Frag, let it be, none of your sources support your wild claims about Pechtold being a Grey Wolf or the D66 toeing the Turkish government line, you're going nowhere. Blame the Turks or something, D66 has done nothing wrong.

Hax

02-26-2010, 14:41

I think someone needs to stop acting like he has a monopoly on "the truth". It's not like we're all blind and you are the only one who has seen the undefiled radiant light shining over lies.

Fragony

02-26-2010, 14:42

none of your sources support your wild claims about Pechtold being a Grey Wolf

lol?

D66 CATERED TURKISH NATIONALISTS TO DRAW TURKISH VOTES D66 CATERED TURKISH NATIONALISTS TO DRAW TURKISH VOTES D66 CATERED TURKISH NATIONALISTS TO DRAW TURKISH VOTES D66 CATERED TURKISH NATIONALISTS TO DRAW TURKISH VOTES D66 CATERED TURKISH NATIONALISTS TO DRAW TURKISH VOTES D66 CATERED TURKISH NATIONALISTS TO DRAW TURKISH VOTES

Could I make it anymore clear what I said.

The Wizard

02-26-2010, 14:46

Like I just said, one can criticize D66 for being ambiguous about it (and thus arguably catering Turkish votes). One cannot, however, claim D66 denies the Armenian genocide happened or that Pechtold is a Grey Wolf, or something ridiculous like that.

I think someone needs to stop acting like he has a monopoly on "the truth". It's not like we're all blind and you are the only one who has seen the undefiled radiant light shining over lies.

I'm merely repeating what's in the articles, buddy. Nothing more, nothing less.

Fragony

02-26-2010, 14:49

I'm merely repeating what's in the articles, buddy. Nothing more, nothing less.

He's on your side treat him nice ;)

But I really don't know why you simply can't accept that it is exactly as I said, Elsevier has a pretty complete dossier of this affair you can't have read all of it in 5 minutes. None of what I says has been denied, and none of the articles had to be rectified. Sorry about your look on things.

I think someone needs to stop acting like he has a monopoly on "the truth"

This is kinda hilarious though, needs to be repeated.

(and thus arguably catering Turkish votes)

Again, I never said Pechtold is a grey wolf, would be silly as he has no Turkish blood. But geez at last getting there, now be a good boy and look up the ties of TurksForum.nl

hint: De website TurksForum.nl ontkent de Armeense genocide en benadrukt de 'slachtingen door Armeniërs'. De deportatie van de Armenen door de Turken zou 'een humane oplossing' zijn geweest voor het probleem van de voor de Russen spionerende Armenen.

The Wizard

02-26-2010, 15:00

OK, and I quote:

Yes, he does that all the time. Racist, extreme right, we are millions. Only when he isn't though, I doubt he will lure many Armenians very soon since he got cozy with the grey wolves. You know the grey wolves right, Turkish ultra-nationalists. He also likes to beat up his employees, nice guy. Also corrupt, as Leiden remembers from his time he spend there as the APPOINTED mayor. Do they have an opinion on anything anyway, except on Wilders, never heard one.

So you are assuming they took that position for a different reason, and you consider communication a la 'you say this and we will do that' unlikely? You that naive?

Simply cannot be maintained while basing yourself on those sources, not even Elsevier. D66 was ambiguous, Koser Kaya is ambiguous, and this is lamentable and deserves to be decried and rectified.

Also, I'm not naive, on the contrary. You might be able to maintain that D66 refused to take a stand to attract Turkish voters, but maintaining that they did it to get the Turkish government to tell people to vote for them? :laugh4: Borders on the impossible.

Everything said in your links goes no further than that and is a far cry from agreeing with your "Grey Wolf" and "Turkish government foot soldiers" claptrap. I'm sorry, but that's what it is.

EDIT: Official D66 position (at the time) (http://www.d66.nl/d66nl/nieuws/20061208/over_de_uitzending_van_nova_2). Now try equating that with the TurksForum.nl position ~:rolleyes:

Fragony

02-26-2010, 15:08

You will just have to forgive me my poetic tendency's, ok that went a bit far, it's too much fun not to call a Turkish nationalist a grey wolf. So scuzi there. So scrap that and look at the 99% that remains, and that us still that D66 catered Turkish nationalists to draw Turkish votes. But we seem to agree at that at this point. Looked up Turksforum already, you know the guys who spread the non existing because it wasn't denied e-mail.

Hax

02-26-2010, 15:19

I'm merely repeating what's in the articles, buddy. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mr. Wizard Wizardson, I was not refering to you. However, I cannot directly point fingers in this forum due to the rules of chivalry, so I couldn't state exactly whoI had in mind.

The Wizard

02-26-2010, 15:21

:embarassed: My bad, then.

Frag I'm well aware of Turkish nationalist opinion, and its anti-Western (and anti-American in particular) character. And of course its denial of the Armenian genocide.

Though I must say, I think the Turkish government is really stupid. The Republic of Turkey had nothing to do with the genocides carried out under Enver Pasha's Ottoman empire, so it had nothing to personally apologize for. But they had to go and deny it ever happened in the first place, so now they're more or less bound to apoligize.

Anyhow, back to Dutch politics. Who else here hopes Labor won't be sitting in another coalition for at least a decade?

Fragony

02-26-2010, 15:25

Anyhow, back to Dutch politics.

First an 'ok Fragony I am sorry I ever doubted you, you were right and I didn't listen'

[ ] <-

The Wizard

02-26-2010, 15:26

No, I think you mean 'ok Wizard I am sorry I ever doubted you, you were right and I didn't listen' ~;)

Fragony

02-26-2010, 15:33

No, I think you mean 'ok Wizard I am sorry I ever doubted you, you were right and I didn't listen' ~;)

Good thinking, the accuser became the accused, now it is you who has to discredit me. So, why exactly is everything I claimed bull, I would start with idea's and ideology, and most of all consistency.

Louis VI the Fat

02-26-2010, 15:44

Yo, Frags. Dhimmi ammo for ya:

A Danish newspaper apologised today to eight Muslim organisations for the offence it caused by reprinting controversial cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad, in exchange for their dropping legal action against the newspaper.

Politiken reached a settlement with the groups, which represent 94,923 of Muhammad's descendants, in which it agreed to print an apology for the affront the cartoons caused. The newspaper has not given up its right to publish the cartoons and has not apologised for having printed them as part of its news coverage.

In a joint statement, the two sides said they wanted to "express their satisfaction with this amicable understanding and settlement, and express the hope that it may in some degree contribute to defusing the present tense situation".

The decision to issue an apology for the offence caused has been met, however, by widespread condemnation from the Danish media and political parties.
The editor of Jyllands-Posten, which originally printed the cartoons in 2005 and is published by the same media company as Politiken, said that its sister paper had failed in the fight for freedom of speech and called it a "sad day" for the Danish press.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/26/danish-cartoons-muhammad-politiken-apology

Hax

02-26-2010, 15:47

Why apologise now? God, has everyone lost their sense of responsibility.

This "freedom of speech" fallacy was quite childish to begin with in the first place.

Fragony

02-26-2010, 16:24

que?

Hax

02-26-2010, 17:33

It's become totally unrealistic, friend. People don't "use" their freedom of speech to say what they want to say, but to say stuff just because they can say it. There's no value in that, at all.

Fragony

02-26-2010, 18:10

It's become totally unrealistic, friend. People don't "use" their freedom of speech to say what they want to say, but to say stuff just because they can say it. There's no value in that, at all.

People don't understand what freedom of speech is, it's not saying whatever you want, it's protection from prosecution for what you say.

Hax

02-26-2010, 19:13

The Wizard

02-26-2010, 21:11

I got to say, I'm with Frag here. First Amendment rights, wish we had those here.

Strike For The South

02-26-2010, 21:14

Freedom of speech eh?

How about the duty of responsibility? I think that one's way more valuable (though always interlinked with the former) in civilised societies. Comparing the Qu'ran with Mein Kampf, what good is it? What's the goal Wilders wants to reach? None that I can see, apart from exercising his freedom of speech. What's the point of calling Muhammed a paedophile? None, except slandering a billion+ adherents to Islam.

Let's learn mutual responsibility first, before moving on to freedoms. Freedom is only freedom within boundaries.

People should be able to see through such hyperbole.

If people are convinced through fair and intimadation that is regretable but not nearly as regretable as "protecting" them for opinons

The "duty of responsibilty"? Does that mean we have to agree on what we can say before we say it? That kind of defeats the whole porpuse of freedom doesnt?

HoreTore

02-26-2010, 21:54

Freedom of speech eh?

How about the duty of responsibility? I think that one's way more valuable (though always interlinked with the former) in civilised societies. Comparing the Qu'ran with Mein Kampf, what good is it? What's the goal Wilders wants to reach? None that I can see, apart from exercising his freedom of speech. What's the point of calling Muhammed a paedophile? None, except slandering a billion+ adherents to Islam.

Let's learn mutual responsibility first, before moving on to freedoms. Freedom is only freedom within boundaries.

No. Everyone and their grandmother has the right to call Muhammed a pedophile without facing criminal prosecution.

And the rest of us has the right to label them ignorant loonies. Lawyers are for losers, winners use their words.

Hax

02-27-2010, 01:14

No. Everyone and their grandmother has the right to call Muhammed a pedophile without facing criminal prosecution.

Certainly. But they also need to take responsibility for what they've said. That goes out of court as well. Or rather, it's even more important, out of court.

And the rest of us has the right to label them ignorant loonies. Lawyers are for losers, winners use their words.

Yes. As long as we take responsibility for those words. "Ignorant loony" isn't really subtle, now.

The "duty of responsibilty"? Does that mean we have to agree on what we can say before we say it? That kind of defeats the whole porpuse of freedom doesnt?

I wasn't necessarily talking about intersubjective responsibility, I was talking about the fact that we should take responsibility for what we do and say. That goes for everyone, in my book.

Hax

02-27-2010, 01:23

Just to clarify something:

without facing criminal prosecution.

I think this is very important. I wasn't talking about legal consequences. I don't agree with persecuting people because of their opinions. This isn't North Korea.

Fragony

02-27-2010, 07:59

How about the duty of responsibility? I think that one's way more valuable (though always interlinked with the former) in civilised societies. Comparing the Qu'ran with Mein Kampf, what good is it? What's the goal Wilders wants to reach? None that I can see, apart from exercising his freedom of speech. What's the point of calling Muhammed a paedophile? None, except slandering a billion+ adherents to Islam.

So? Hardliners are offended anyway by anything so who cares let them rage, gets the lefties all stuck in their own argument, good fun, puts them into the position of having to defend the Quran. That's kinda hard so they hysterically scream and claw instead, go too far in their rightious rage, voila more seats for Wilders. Moderate muslims pull their shoulders and shrug it off. If Wilders said about muslims what hardcore muslims say about non-muslims you would be screaming bloody murder, so hypocrite.

HoreTore

02-27-2010, 09:04

Certainly. But they also need to take responsibility for what they've said. That goes out of court as well. Or rather, it's even more important, out of court.

Yes. As long as we take responsibility for those words. "Ignorant loony" isn't really subtle, now.

Just what do you mean when you say "responsibility"?

Hax

02-27-2010, 18:24

Just what do you mean when you say "responsibility"?

Moral and ethical responsibility that are dependent on the dominant culture.

This goes for everyone, I think.

So? Hardliners are offended anyway by anything so who cares let them rage, gets the lefties all stuck in their own argument, good fun, puts them into the position of having to defend the Quran. That's kinda hard so they hysterically scream and claw instead, go too far in their rightious rage, voila more seats for Wilders. Moderate muslims pull their shoulders and shrug it off. If Wilders said about muslims what hardcore muslims say about non-muslims you would be screaming bloody murder, so hypocrite.

Funny, I was talking about it with my colleague grey wolves D66 members today.

Fragony, you should know that "us vs them" behaviour is quite childish and outdated.

Why isn't Wilders coming with any solutions? His stances are completely one-sided: Islam is the root of (all) evil in the Netherlands. I don't buy it, as I have seen little to no proof that even suggests it is directly related to the problems we have with immigrants right now.

HoreTore

02-27-2010, 18:36

Moral and ethical responsibility that are dependent on the dominant culture.

This goes for everyone, I think.

Yes.... But what impact does it have?

Furunculus

02-27-2010, 20:11

interesting der spiegel article on the Dutch crisis:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,680222,00.html

Fragony

02-27-2010, 20:21

Dear Haxie, you fail to see the hight of logic, no Wilders has no solutions, very true. But the rest doesn't even have a problem to begin with. So we have a politician without solutions for a country without problems.

Hax

02-27-2010, 20:55

Yes.... But what impact does it have?

Responsibility? I think responsibility is one of the bedrocks of civilisation. It's one of the most important things about growing up...or I've been severely misinformed.

Dear Haxie, you fail to see the hight of logic, no Wilders has no solutions, very true. But the rest doesn't even have a problem to begin with. So we have a politician without solutions for a country without problems.

And yet, you won't hear people say that there is no problem with Maroccan youth gangs. However, this is not related to Islam. It is your problem once you equate the problems some non-western immigrants cause with Islam.

Kralizec

02-27-2010, 21:22

I think this is very important. I wasn't talking about legal consequences. I don't agree with persecuting people because of their opinions. This isn't North Korea.

Yet, this is precisely what most people really mean when they're saying "you have freedom of expression, but not the freedom to insult" or "freedom of expression comes with responsibility" and so on.

Who else here hopes Labor won't be sitting in another coalition for at least a decade?

Sounds appealing, but I dislike the christian democrats more than labor. Wich is why I think a purple coalition would be a good thing, an added bonus is that this is probably the only way we'll ever get rid of Balkenende.
Anywho, a new coalition between CDA and Labor doesn't seem very likely so I'm happy.

HoreTore

02-27-2010, 22:46

Responsibility? I think responsibility is one of the bedrocks of civilisation. It's one of the most important things about growing up...or I've been severely misinformed.

No, I mean, what exactly do you want "responsibility" to do? What will happen with responsibility, as opposed to without responsibility? Will we refrain from certain things, ie. self-censorship, or what?

In short, does it mean anything other than "I'll say whatever the hell I like, no matter what you think of it"?

Hax

02-28-2010, 00:03

Well, I might be way too unrealistic here, but what I'd like to see is that people think about the practical use and value to society of what they're saying before they say it.

Fragony

02-28-2010, 09:51

Well, I might be way too unrealistic here, but what I'd like to see is that people think about the practical use and value to society of what they're saying before they say it.

Should we walk on eggs because of their delicate sensibilities, no way. We should be as offensive, mean, and derogatory as is humanly possible, we must humiliate them to their very bones, mock their religious customs into oblivion. That is how we got rid of christian lunatics; screw your religion. Kick them so hard that they have no choice other then enjoying it. It's the only way.

And yet, you won't hear people say that there is no problem with Maroccan youth gangs. However, this is not related to Islam. It is your problem once you equate the problems some non-western immigrants cause with Islam.

Just pointing out there is a problem with Maroccan youths used to be political death. It is because of the right that this discussion can be held in the first place, so don't give me that 'no solution' crap. The left is the problem, we are the solution, and the muslims are going to be just fine. I apologize to the Dutch muslim community for fighting this one over their backs, but it has to happen, the left needs to go. The left is absolutely in love with Islam or at least pretend they are because of the suffocating social control that is political correctness.

The Wizard

02-28-2010, 14:34

Fragony

02-28-2010, 18:12

What I take exception to is equating Moroccan youth to Islam. Instead of focusing on their crappy socio-economic situation, apathetic and illiterate parents, and backwards rural culture (Rif/Atlas/Eastern Anatolia). All of which are decreasing problems as the generations advance, I might add.

What do you expect from the parents of Marrocan criminals, state wants to do everything for them, and then they get accused for apathy, that is so unfair.

Fragony

03-01-2010, 11:07

Owwwww naughty...... BIG NEWS PVV SUPPORTERS INTIMIDATE SHOPKEEPERS. Good thing the internet-journalists revealed the shopkeepers ties with the AFA.

nice try, next

Fragony

03-04-2010, 08:36

What a great way to start the day, if the results of local elections is anything to go on the crypto-communists and the church-party's have something to worry about. Second in The Hague and first in Almere, congrats Geert. The PVV is here to stay and Wilders will be our next president if he doesn't get a tragic accident.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/vote-wilders-wins-dutch-local-elections

Pechtold, Schiphol called, you are missing your plane.

Hax

03-04-2010, 10:46

Have you paid any attention to Leiden, Haarlem and Utrecht, Frags? ;D

I was at the D66 meeting last night, we did have something to celebrate.

Fragony

03-04-2010, 11:01

Keeping these seats will be hard. The pvda is going to go in hard from the very comfortable position that is being in the opposition, with a few months of De wereld draait door, Netwerk, Nova, Zembla, 1vandaag, Buitenhof, NOS (did I miss any?) singing the exclusive praises of the pvda most of these voters will be back in the fold. Pechtold only has one argument and that argument is Wilders, they have no idea's of their own, to stay in the spotlight he has to keep schreeching g at Wilders, and it that emptiness will be noticed.

Hax

03-04-2010, 11:09

Pechtold only has one argument and that argument is Wilders, they have no idea's of their own, to stay in the spotlight he has to keep schreeching g at Wilders, and it that emptiness will be noticed.

...yes...clearly (http://www.d66.nl/gemeenten/item/richtingwijzers_d66).

Wilders only has one argument, and that argument is Islam: he has no solutions of his own, to stay in the spotlight he has to keep screeching t at Muslims, and it that (?) emptiness will be noticed.

Fragony

03-04-2010, 11:14

...yes...clearly (http://www.d66.nl/gemeenten/item/richtingwijzers_d66).

Wilders only has one argument, and that argument is Islam: he has no solutions of his own, to stay in the spotlight he has to keep screeching t at Muslims, and it that (?) emptiness will be noticed.

You can keep saying that to each other, but that doesn't make it any more true, bezigheidstherapie voor geitenwollensokken. Why would he need any solutions anyway, there are no problems after all.

for you foreigners http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=20107 a little taste of how far the left goes

The exact same thing is being done to Geert Wilders and for the same reasons. He is running against the modern multicultural narrative and prefers free market economics as well as individual rights. Essentially classical liberalism as spelled out by people such as Thomas Jefferson.

Hax

03-04-2010, 12:24

I checked your link, dear Fragony (you live in Leiden, right?) and something caught my eye immediately: "Eurabia". Right, that's where he lost credibility, for me. Oh wait, Jihad Watch references, yeah, sure.

I think it's pretty obvious that there might be some problems with immigrant youthsters. However, the fact that they or their parents are Islamic has fairly little to do with it. On a related note, Morrocan youthsters cause less trouble than Arubans, and I'm pretty sure they are not Islamic. Need I remind you of the "Hoek van Holland"-incident. They were not Muslims nor Morrocans.

It's denial of facts to suggest that the problems some Morrocans cause are directly related to Islam. I'm sorry, but I've been taking a break at this place called "reality", and there is very little to suggest that Morrocans, crime and Islam are constantly intertwined.

Fragony

03-04-2010, 12:31

I checked your link, dear Fragony (you live in Leiden, right?) and something caught my eye immediately: "Eurabia". Right, that's where he lost credibility, for me.

No I live in Amersfoort, Krommestraat, pretty close to Zeist (you are from there right) http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/euromed/index_en.htm <- do your homework

Adrian II

03-04-2010, 12:36

Second in The Hague and first in Almere, congrats Geert. The PVV is here to stay and Wilders will be our next president if he doesn't get a tragic accident.

President no less! Has Wilders changed his views on the monarchy as well lately?

Look, Wilders' PVV is still a one-issue party and they're not even going to solve that one issue, they'll just make it more intractable.

Remember that we had a similar 'break-through' in the 2002 elections when the party of another right-wing maverick, Pim Fortuyn, made some big inroads. His LPF got 26 seats out of the total 150. But when the LPF participated in the ensuing coalition government and had to deliver, they collapsed and were soon down to 0 seats. The same thing happened to Haider's right-wing outfit, the FPÖ, in Austria in 2006. Wilders is going to go the same way. He is tapping into the same reservoir as other radical parties, the disgruntled 20% of the electorate who have no clue and root for forceful personalities. Pim Fortuyn was their man in 2002. Jan Marijnissen (leader of the radical Socialist Party or SP) was their hope in 2006, when his party jumped from from 9 to 25 seats - now that Marijnissen has stepped down they appear to be are down to single digits again. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

These guys are a waste of time, energy and money to us all. But we're a democracy, so we will put up with them and meanwhile try to implement real solutions to real problems. The Honourable Hax (see above) was right to celebrate last night since his party has a genuine program and something to show for. I wish mine had. But this impasse, too, wil pass. And while the scavengers fight over the corpses of national identity politics and free market nonsense, a new social democracy will arise and dominate the coming century as it did the last. It's in our genes, as biologist Frans de Waal would say. :bow:

Hax

03-04-2010, 12:38

I'm from Driebergen, which is pretty close to Zeist, yeah.

Interestingly, I came across the EuroMed thing not too long ago. I fail to see what this has to do with Islam.

the de-pollution of the Mediterranean Sea;
the establishment of maritime and land highways;
civil protection initiatives to combat natural and man-made disasters;
a Mediterranean solar energy plan;
the inauguration of the Euro-Mediterranean University in Slovenia;
and the Mediterranean Business Development Initiative focusing on micro, small and medium-sized enterprises.

Hey, look people, this is an evil plan by "the left" designed to turn Europe into a subservient Dhimmi state that is part of the Global Evil Islamic Empire led by people like Ahmadinejad, Osama Bin Laden, Ghadaffi and their ilk. The fact that the three formerly mentioned people probably hate eachothers guts doesn't matter!

Fragony

03-04-2010, 12:40

Interestingly, I came across the EuroMed thing not too long ago. I fail to see what this has to do with Islam.

'Cultural exchange', you didn't notice it? Never felt the need to culturally exchange with the budhists or the hindu's.

Hax

03-04-2010, 12:44

'Cultural exchange', you didn't notice it? Never felt the need to culturally exchange with the budhists or the hindu's.

No. Never (http://www.dalailamanederland.nl/site/?page_id=6&lang=en).

Fragony

03-04-2010, 12:47

straw --> grab

Hax

03-04-2010, 12:52

Fragony

03-04-2010, 13:00

What makes you so certain that everwyhere where Islam comes, we are faced with death and terror? I'm opposed to Islamism, yes, but way over 90% of all Islamic people that immigrate here are not in the least interested to making the Netherlands a sharia state.

Very true, so don't. We will have a ball with the new generation, you can keep your fundies and have honor with them in the local tea-house.

The Wizard

03-04-2010, 14:15

Ugh, the Volkskrant's front page this morning is pig disgusting, Labor's party paper declaring this was a day of glorious victory for the cadre, and the CDA and SP are doomed... ~:rolleyes: Amazing how they just copy/paste Bos's amazing translation of a giant loss into a victory.

On a related note, Morrocan youthsters cause less trouble than Arubans, and I'm pretty sure they are not Islamic.

Hey! :stare:

Fragony

03-04-2010, 15:01

Ugh, the Volkskrant's front page this morning is pig disgusting, Labor's party paper declaring this was a day of glorious victory for the cadre, and the CDA and SP are doomed... ~:rolleyes: Amazing how they just copy/paste Bos's amazing translation of a giant loss into a victory.

They weren't completely wiped out, they will be back.They have reason to be optimistic they will probably end up biggest leftist party again, they have the time and the means.

KukriKhan

03-04-2010, 15:58

...But this impasse, too, wil pass. And while the scavengers fight over the corpses of national identity politics and free market nonsense, a new social democracy will arise and dominate the coming century as it did the last. It's in our genes, as biologist Frans de Waal would say.

Some inspiring prose. I'm sorry Dutch politics are such a seeming mess, but if that's what it took to bring AdrianII back to our Backroom... I'm grateful.

Fragony

03-05-2010, 08:16

Some inspiring prose. I'm sorry Dutch politics are such a seeming mess, but if that's what it took to bring AdrianII back to our Backroom... I'm grateful.

Not that much of a mess, just turbulent. The debate is harsher here then it is in other countries, it's just how we do things, we tend to mistake going in with a stretched leg with honesty. And AdrianII is like his party, we will never be truly rid of it, like a phoenix from the ashes it will always emerge.

Welcome aboard mr Hiddema, this man is going to eat lazy leftist non-debaters alive with his calm eloquence, he is going to be an excellent minister of justice. And I know he looks like Hitler.

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2010/03/even_ballen_met_mr_hiddema.html#comments

The Wizard

03-05-2010, 17:05

They weren't completely wiped out, they will be back.They have reason to be optimistic they will probably end up biggest leftist party again, they have the time and the means.

Biggest leftist party meaning less than 20 seats ~;)

Louis VI the Fat

03-06-2010, 03:37

And while the scavengers fight over the corpses of national identity politics and free market nonsense, a new social democracy will arise and dominate the coming century as it did the last. It's in our genes, as biologist Frans de Waal would say. :bow:Oh, de Waal has been succesful in his defense of altruism alright.

But you shouldn't be reading Frans de Waal, you should read his intellectual superior, Frags de Waal.

Goodall showed the innate, genetic instinct of Chimpansees for genocide and groupthink. De Waal's altruism is reserved for those apes of their own group. Goodall shows that Chimps not only fight other groups, but won't tolerate others on their territory. Even have identity politics too. When a group splits up, in no time they will fight each other to death.

The multicultural society spells the end of socialism in Europe. Altruism extends only to one's own group, such as the monocultural society de Waal has been studying.

Fragony

03-06-2010, 09:15

Adrian II

03-18-2010, 11:26

He actually introduces 'instrumental altruism', quid pro quo, and yes it exists only within their own group, AdrianII must have stopped reading at the title 'Van Nature Goed' and drawn his conclusions ;)Frag, De Waal has since written five more books. Try his latest The Age of Empathy (2007). Oh, and Louis, De Waal not only read Goodall, he knows her personally. She wrote the foreword to his Chimpanzee Culture (1994). Wouldn't it be your educated guess that he deals with her views as well? So spare us the Wiki wisdom.

Fragony

03-18-2010, 11:52

I'll give it a look, sounds really interesting. And take a look outside you grumpy old man

Louis VI the Fat

03-18-2010, 12:44

This cool blog gives a quick Dutch politics 101:
http://www.quirksmode.org/politics/

And blogs about current events, including polls:
http://www.quirksmode.org/politics/blog/

Louis,

spare us the Wiki wisdom.'tis not me wot quoted French the Walloon to show the genetic inevitability of the triumph of socialism.

Progressives and their scientific socialism! Hrmph! Never shy of a pseudo-scientific theory why society is inevitably moving toward socialism.

Fragony

03-18-2010, 13:30

Read him for his behavioral study's, ignore the rest.

Louis VI the Fat

03-18-2010, 18:43

What effect will all the changes of party leadership have?

Labour replaced their leader. The Socialists got a new Dear Leader too. Will the Christian Democrats follow suit and change leadership to finally oust Europe's weakest PM?

Jan Peter 'See, Italy, I too can destabilise a country with a new government every five months' Balkende to go at long last?

Christian Democrat says Balkenende must go While Christian Democrats argue over the position of party leader Jan Peter Balkenende, more politicians are set to stand down at the next election.

Current prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende should make way for a new leader of the Christian Democrat (CDA) party. If he doesn't, the CDA risks becoming the Netherlands' third or fourth biggest party, according to CDA member of parliament Annie Schreijer-Pierik.

She is the first CDA member of parliament to speak out against Balkenende, who has been put forward by party officials as candidate leader.

In the meantime, more politicians have said they are standing down at the June election, following the resignations of Labour leader Wouter Bos, Socialist party leader Agnes Kant and CDA transport minister Camiel Eurlings . On Tuesday, Pieter van Geel, who leads the CDA in parliament, and former home affairs minister minister Johan Remkes and member of parliament Laetitia Griffith, both of the right-wing liberal party (VVD), joined the exodus.

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2505517.ece/Christian_Democrat_says_Balkenende_must_go

Better like this, Adrian? :beam:

Louis VI the Fat

03-19-2010, 12:46

The homosexual marxist Dutch undermine NATO's security!!

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Dutch government officials reacted angrily on Friday to claims by a retired U.S. general that Dutch forces were overrun in Srebrenica in 1995 in part because of the presence of gay soldiers.

At a U.S. congressional hearing on Thursday on allowing gay soldiers to serve openly in the military, former Supreme Allied Commander John Sheehan said there was a link between having homosexuals in the Dutch forces and the massacre at Srebrenica.

Bosnian Serb forces overran lightly armed Dutch soldiers in the United Nations (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/united_nations/index.html?inline=nyt-org)-designated enclave of Srebrenica in July 1995 and subsequently massacred more than 7,000 Muslim men and boys.
Reports on the hearing said Sheehan blamed a post-Cold War effort by European nations to "socialise" their forces by, among other things, letting gays serve.

"That led to a force that was ill-equipped to go to war. The case in point that I'm referring to is when the Dutch were required to defend Srebrenica against the Serbs," Sheehan said.
"The battalion was under-strength, poorly led, and the Serbs came into town, handcuffed the soldiers to the telephone poles, marched the Muslims off, and executed them."
Carl Levin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/carl_levin/index.html?inline=nyt-per), chairman of the U.S. Senate's (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/senate/index.html?inline=nyt-org) Armed Services Committee, asked: "Did the Dutch leaders tell you it was because there were gay soldiers there?"
"Yes, they did. They included that as part of the problem," Sheehan said, according to a webcast on the website of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
"That there were gay soldiers?" Levin then asked.
"That the combination was the liberalisation of the military, a net effect was basically social engineering."
The Dutch Defence Ministry issued a statement calling Sheehan's claims "absolute nonsense" and adding that gay Dutch soldiers routinely cooperate with the U.S. military in the NATO (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/north_atlantic_treaty_organization/index.html?inline=nyt-org) mission in Afghanistan.
Renee Jones-Bos, the Dutch ambassador to the United States, said in a statement, "I couldn't disagree more" with Sheehan, adding there was no evidence of his claims in the extensive record of research on Srebrenica.
Dutch press agency ANP quoted the head of the military union AFMP, Wim van den Burg, as saying Sheehan's comments were "ridiculous" and "out of the realm of fiction."
The events in Srebrenica remain a sensitive subject in the Netherlands, where a six-year investigation into the massacre led to the government's fall in 2002.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/03/19/world/international-uk-dutch-military-gays.html?_r=1

Fragony

03-19-2010, 12:58

A gay parade will never be the same

The Wizard

03-20-2010, 22:53

These new polls make me a sad panda

Fragony

03-21-2010, 08:18

Tell me about it, truly amazing. No story, no knowhow, no plans, just hype. Job Cohen isn't the second best mayor in the world as he bought was awarded, he is an artful dodger.

relevant collums, RIP Pammie RIP Theo

http://www.frontaalnaakt.nl/archives/00000745.html
http://www.degezonderoker.nl/metro_50.html

Louis VI the Fat

04-05-2010, 01:10

Online Muslim sex shop launched in the Netherlands

Candid but demure, an online sex shop for Muslims has been launched in the Netherlands to tap into a demand for erotica that does not offend Sharia law.

All ingredients are halal, or "permissible under Islam", said Aouragh, and conspicuously absent are dildos, vibrators and any type of pornography. "Most of the other products out there have pictures of naked people or foul language -- it was very difficult to find ones that I could use in my business," he said. Instead, the website shows only photos of boxes, tablets, tubes and bottles -- mainly in pink or blue with the brand's logo, a black flame.

"We have chosen a respectful approach," it says, proclaiming itself "a novelty in the Islamic world". In one sense, it is also a very Dutch product -- like Aouragh himself. Of Moroccan parentage, he was born and raised in Amsterdam and remains a practicing Muslim while embracing typically Dutch tolerance and search for consensus.

He says he, like many, used to think Islam looked upon sexuality as taboo until his friend-turned business partner Stefan Delsink prompted him to look further.

http://www.expatica.com/be/news/news_focus/Online-Muslim-sex-shop-launched-in-the-Netherlands_61047.htmlA halal sex shop. There's something so very 'Netherlands 2010' about all this. :beam:

Short of all my juvenile thoughts about it, it is very interesting. What mutual acculturation!