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Azathoth
02-21-2010, 02:18
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35460268/ns/us_news-life?GT1=43001

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. Apparently yet another guy got pissed off at the government and decided to send a strong message while ending his own life.


Officials: Texas plane crash targeted feds
'Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different'
msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated 9:49 p.m. ET, Thurs., Feb. 18, 2010
AUSTIN, Texas - "If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, 'Why did this have to happen?' The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time."

So began a lengthy, rambling anti-government Web message believed posted by a Texas man suspected of crashing his small plane into an office building housing IRS employees.

The man, identified by federal law enforcement officials as Joseph Stack, 53, was a software engineer who had a long-running grudge with the Internal Revenue Service, whom he referred to in the screed as "thugs and plunderers."

The Web message was dated Thursday and signed "Joe Stack (1956-2010)."

Hours after posting it, Stack set fire to his home, drove to a municipal airport, got into his single-engine Piper Cherokee and deliberately crashed it into a multistory office building, authorities said.

Stack was presumed to have died in the crash, federal law enforcement officials said.

The Fire Department Thursday night said in a statement that it “has concluded its search of the building and located the remains of two victims. Identities have not been confirmed. AFD will have ongoing operations at the site throughout the night, putting out hot spots and watching for any fire flare-ups.”

At least two people were seriously injured and a third person — a federal employee who worked in the building — was unaccounted for, fire officials said.

The crash caused a raging fire that sent black smoke billowing from the seven-story Echelon Building. The fire was extinguished hours later.

At an afternoon news conference, Austin police Chief Art Acevedo said the crash "appears to be an intentional act."

"It would appear to be by a sole individual, and it appears this individual was targeting federal offices inside that building," Acevedo said.

Rep. Lloyd Doggett, D-Texas, said in a statement that the crash was "a cowardly act of domestic terrorism." The police chief, however, said he preferred to describe it as "a criminal act by a lone individual."

The FBI was taking over the investigation.

About 190 IRS employees work in the building, and IRS spokesman Richard C. Sanford the agency was trying to account for all of its workers.

Violence 'the only answer'
The pilot, listed in FAA and property records as Andrew Joseph Stack III of Austin and identified by law enforcement sources as Joseph Stack, apparently had a long-running dispute with the IRS.


A long message posted on a Web site registered to Stack outlined a litany of problems with the IRS and said violence "is the only answer."

The Web site was taken offline Thursday afternoon by the hosting company at the request of the FBI.


A senior law enforcement official told NBC the saga began Thursday morning, when police received a domestic disturbance call at Stack's house, about six miles from the crash site. When they responded, they discovered that the man had lit a fire in his house and fled. They said he went to the Georgetown Municipal Airport, got into his small plane and took off.

A short time later, the plane crashed into the office building about 30 miles away. Federal authorities said they did not know whether the man crashed the plane intentionally, though they said it was a distinct possibility, the official told NBC.

House fire
Elbert Hutchins, who lives one house away from Stack's home in a quiet, tree-lined middle-class neighborhood, said the house caught fire about 9:15 a.m. He said a woman and her teenage daughter drove up before firefighters arrived.

"They both were very, very distraught," said Hutchins, a retiree who said he didn't know the family well. "'That's our house!' they cried 'That's our house!' "

Red Cross spokeswoman Marty McKellips said the agency was treating two people who live in the house and that the family had no comment Thursday. McKellips said the family would “give information and answer questions” on Friday.

The pilot of the plane belonging to Stack which took off from the airport in Georgetown didn't file a flight plan, Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Lynn Lunsford said.

The Echelon Building is next to a major highway in north Austin, and the crash started fires on several floors of the hulking black building. Dozens of windows were blown out and vehicles traveling on a nearby highway paused to look.

Thirteen people were treated at the scene and two people were taken to a hospital with serious injuries, Austin fire officials said. Their condition wasn't immediately known.


Pilot's background
According to California Secretary of State records, Stack had a troubled business history, twice starting software companies that ultimately were suspended by the state's Franchise Tax Board.

He started Software Systems Service Corp. in Lincoln, Calif., but that business license was suspended in 2004 for nonpayment of back taxes totaling $1,153, KCRA-TV in Sacramento reported. Another company, Prowless Engineering Inc. was suspended in 2000 for failure to file a 1994 tax return, according to KCRA.

Stack listed himself as chief executive officer of both companies.


According to records, Stack apparently moved to the Austin area around 2003 and ran Embedded Art, a small, independent software firm specializing in "process control and automation" and "complex software engineering development tasks."


In his 3,200-word statement posted on the company's Web site early Thursday morning and later taken down, Stack appeared to blame the IRS for the loss of tens of thousands in savings and retirement money over the years.

Administrative records show the Web site was registered to Joe Stack of San Marcos, Texas, in 2006.

'Unthinkable atrocities'
Stack said his "nightmare" with the federal government dated to the early 1980s.

In one passage, Stack writes: “That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their 'freedom' … and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.”

He also wrote: "Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it's time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours?

Toward the end, he wrote, “I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.”

The IRS, CIA and FBI all have offices in the complex where the building that was struck is located, though it was not clear if they are all in the building that was hit.

The IRS Web site said an office of its EP Team Audit Program is located in the building where the plane crashed. The group, known as EPTA, examines employee benefit plans with 2,500 or more participants, according to the Web site.


The FBI said its office was not in the building.

In Washington, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said President Barack Obama was briefed on the crash. The Homeland Security Department was investigating all angles but the case does not appear to involve international terrorism, Gibbs said.


Played in country band
Friends of Stark were surprised at news of the crash.

Stack lived in a 2,500-square-foot house in North Austin with wife Sheryl and her daughter, who is about 12, the Austin American-Statesman reported, citing friends, neighbors and county records.

He played bass in the Billy Eli Band, an Austin alt-country band, according to friends.

Michael Cerza, who played drums in the band with Stack, told the Statesman, “My impression of Joe was a kind, quiet, not at all brooding or taciturn person.”

“I didn’t sense anything boiling under the surface. There was no indication in his actions or his words that he would harm anyone.”

Jim Hemphill, also a member of the band, said he was in shock.

“I never saw anything like this in Joe,” he said.

Stack's wife and daughter were believed to be in a neighbor’s house being assisted by the Red Cross. When reporters went to the door, an FBI agent answered, the newspaper reported.

'Huge fireball'
Witnesses to the crash recalled a scene of chaos and destruction.


Peggy Walker, an IRS officer who works in the building, said she was sitting at her desk when the plane crashed.

"It felt like a bomb blew off. The ceiling caved in and windows blew in. We got up and ran," she said.

Matt Farney, 39, who was in the parking lot of a nearby Home Depot, said he saw a low-flying private plane near some apartments and the office building just before it crashed.

"I figured he was going to buzz the apartments or he was showing off," Farney said, adding that the plane dipped down. "It was a ball of flames that was high or higher than the apartments. It was surreal. It was insane. ... It didn't look like he was out of control or anything."


Tucker Thurman was driving to work when he said he saw a small plane flying very low over the highway. He said he saw it then bank heavily to the right before heading into the building.

"There was a huge fireball. It's right into the building," Thurman told the Statesman.

Fragony
02-21-2010, 05:13
In style though,

If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?” The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time. The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken. Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it. I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head. Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy. Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.

While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!

How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system? Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.

How did I get here?

My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.

Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of “paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer.

On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father. I realized this at a very young age.

The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on.

In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time. When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me). I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread. I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made. I decided that I didn’t trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.

Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a ‘wet-behind-the-ears’ contract software engineer… and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.

For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml).

SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.

(a) IN GENERAL – Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:

(d) EXCEPTION. – This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. – The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.

Note:

“another person” is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.
“taxpayer” is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.
“individual”, “employee”, or “worker” is you.
Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but it’s not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave. Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.

During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time. I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity. This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”. Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients.

After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise. The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists). This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect.

Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle. If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.

Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks. Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s. Our leaders decided that they didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that. The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco. However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall. Again, I lost my retirement.

Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed. Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare. Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months. This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive. Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY! After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.

By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a change. Bye to California, I’ll try Austin for a while. So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where damn little real engineering work is done. I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work. The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages… and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.

To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA. This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income. I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out. Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.

So now we come to the present. After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again. But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle. After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.

When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order. I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting. Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit. By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.

This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented). Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone. The end result is… well, just look around.

I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”. Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.

As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone. The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government. Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough). In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.

I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand. It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won’t continue; I have just had enough.

I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer. The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.

I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

Joe Stack (1956-2010)

02/18/2010

V

Centurion1
02-22-2010, 01:30
yet another cowardly and weak man.

Tellos Athenaios
02-22-2010, 01:52
Still. Could be worse: in Southern Carolina they'd want another $25K for not declaring his intentions, or exhorting others to, overthrow government...

Seriously though: there are ways of making a point that do not involve maiming others. So no sympathy from me.

Louis VI the Fat
02-22-2010, 02:08
yet another cowardly and weak man.:yes:


Too cowardly to even await the Trbesmanning of his pathetic rambling that nobody is interested in. Such a shame these cowards need to take other people with them to make a point.

Subotan
02-22-2010, 03:17
yet another cowardly and weak man.
You mean desperate.

Azathoth
02-22-2010, 03:51
Should I have worded the title differently?

Beskar
02-22-2010, 16:58
The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

:laugh4: He is right with that though.

Centurion1
02-22-2010, 22:45
You mean desperate.

no i mean what i said. so "desperate" he not only killed himself which is weak and cowardly enough in my mind in 90% of the cases , he "had" to hurt other people.

Subotan
02-23-2010, 00:01
no i mean what i said. so "desperate" he not only killed himself which is weak and cowardly enough in my mind in 90% of the cases , he "had" to hurt other people.
Weakness and cowardice are subjective. This was a man who had been broken and ground down by his lot in life. Of course, I'm not condoning what he did, but this was as much a cry for help as one of protest.

And since when is being suicidal "weak and cowardly"?

Centurion1
02-23-2010, 01:08
Weakness and cowardice are subjective. This was a man who had been broken and ground down by his lot in life. Of course, I'm not condoning what he did, but this was as much a cry for help as one of protest.

And since when is being suicidal "weak and cowardly"?

he lit his bloody house on fire with his wife and children in it.

Suicide in most cases is a weak and cowardly gesture. Do not wish to make a blanket statement but in most cases yes. This isn't a reflection of my churchs view i personally believe that.

This man should have taken what life had given him and been faithful that eventually he would get a farther ahead, not to mention others lives are far far far worse than his.

Subotan
02-23-2010, 10:10
he lit his bloody house on fire with his wife and children in it.

No he didn't.



This man should have taken what life had given him and been faithful that eventually he would get a farther ahead, not to mention others lives are far far far worse than his.

You appear to think that I am agreeing with him, or that I condone his actions. I do not. But I do feel sympathy for him, in that he should have received help from a system which had totally broken him.



Suicide in most cases is a weak and cowardly gesture. Do not wish to make a blanket statement but in most cases yes. This isn't a reflection of my churchs view i personally believe that.

That's an appalling opinion. How can you make such a sweeping, prejudiced judgement against people who are mentally ill?

naut
02-23-2010, 11:13
He put a massive V at the end? Wow. Someone watched way too much V for Vendetta.

Subotan
02-23-2010, 15:00
"Watches"? :inquisitive:

Strike For The South
02-23-2010, 18:41
Well, That's Austin for you

Centurion1
02-23-2010, 22:44
No he didn't.

Read the article.



You appear to think that I am agreeing with him, or that I condone his actions. I do not. But I do feel sympathy for him, in that he should have received help from a system which had totally broken him.

He didn't pay his taxes which is an unlawful practice among other things. The government didnt force him to break the law



That's an appalling opinion. How can you make such a sweeping, prejudiced judgement against people who are mentally ill?

It is hard to imagine many people who kill themselves are completely sane at worst they are suffering from man made depression. Many people had lives FAR worse than this man and they do not kill themselves. Many people have suffered much further falls from grace and still do not kill themselves. Suicide should not be an accepted practice mentally ill or not. Not only that but this was a attempted murder-suicide which is selfish, cowardly, and weak.

some people do commit suicide as a result to some extent of mental illness but what i find most atrocious about this mans "suicide" is the fact that it was a murder-suicide which is what i meant to say in earlier posts.

no i do not think you condone his actions of course.

His life was pretty darn good still. A 2500 sq. foot house thats about a 1000 sq. feet bigger than mine. I guarantee the Psychologists decide he had some sort of disease that made him do this.

Subotan
02-24-2010, 01:19
Read the article..
He set fire to his house, but not with his family inside.


He didn't pay his taxes which is an unlawful practice among other things. The government didnt force him to break the law
What he appeared to be frustrated with is that many rich individuals didn't pay their taxes, as the "system" worked to their advantage.



It is hard to imagine many people who kill themselves are completely sane
Wanting to end your own life cannot be called sanity.


are suffering from man made depression.
Depression is an actual medical condition, and a very serious one at that.


Many people had lives FAR worse than this man and they do not kill themselves. Many people have suffered much further falls from grace and still do not kill themselves. Suicide should not be an accepted practice mentally ill or not
Maybe this particular individual was less mentally stable than the examples you were referring to. It's just if he had received help (And any mean actual help, not just Prozac and blaming it on childhood trauma) then this could have been avoided. Him comitting suicide, or having suicidal tendencies does not make him a bad person.


Not only that but this was a attempted murder-suicide which is selfish, cowardly, and weak.
I kind of agree with this though.


some people do commit suicide as a result to some extent of mental illness but what i find most atrocious about this mans "suicide" is the fact that it was a murder-suicide which is what i meant to say in earlier posts.
Right, that's what I was arguing against. Him being suicidal does not make him weak etc.



no i do not think you condone his actions of course..
Sorry, misinterpretation.



His life was pretty darn good still. A 2500 sq. foot house thats about a 1000 sq. feet bigger than mine. I guarantee the Psychologists decide he had some sort of disease that made him do this.

I was thinking, if he's worried about his pension, why does he own a plane? But then it's not like mental stress/illness makes you think rationally.

Centurion1
02-24-2010, 02:36
A well thought out post and i think we agree on more points than we disagree. But the house did actually have his family inside they were next door getting aid from red cross meaning they were in the fire. Any individual with a even a rented plane has some sort of cash reserves..... which he could have used for his retirement. I fail to see how him simply disregarding the law is the governments fault. He wanted to blame his failed enterprises on someone and the IRS often a outlet of peoples anger was a convenient target.

Edit: i do understand depression though. But often times some people do not have clinical depression right off the bat but certain events push them off the edge. Like i said killing yourself and trying to kill others along with yourself are too different things and i meant to make the distinction betweeen that in all my posts within this thread.

Devastatin Dave
02-24-2010, 18:06
Suicidal rage against the tyranical IRS and its unconstitutional theft of our wages makes me horny...

Seamus Fermanagh
02-24-2010, 20:54
Welly-welly-well. If it isn't our old droog leader....


Once a thread has gotten this kind of "rise" from our master of devestation, it's time for exeunt!