Koinon Hellenon

[etipac]

Would love to do a campaign with Koinon Hellenon but would like some more help.

1) What is the typlical battle roster for a Koinon Hellenon 20slots?(Sort of a composition of a legion or so although its different)
2) If I would try to re-write history what would I try to do and where would I try to go?
3)Are there any reforms with Koinon Hellenon? and how do they kick in?

And more info please.

Thanks
Etienne

[podoh]

1) There are some threads around for this, I might do a search later on if I have more time, but you'll probably find them yourself faster.

2) Wherever there are Greeks struggling under tyranny, my friend! As the KH you'll have lots of Greeks poleis revolting to you. Trying to reinforce all of these revolts makes a very interesting campaign.

3) I think there were some reforms tied to the vanilla marians, so you have to wait till the Romans have a second huge city (probably Capua). I don't think there a some reforms you can trigger yourself.

[Poulp']

to answer question #2, you'll need to maintain a sizeable fleet if you want to send troops overseas (it will be overseas with the greeks) to cities revolting to you (the usual suspects are Emporion, Arsé, Messana, Syracuse, Halicarnassos, Kyrene, and those two cities in Krimea).
To keep this fleet up, you'll need money, lots of money, so concentrate first on taking most of Greece, making trade partners and turtle up.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Rome has a unified (i.e. standard) military. All legions are organised more or less identically.

The Greeks do not have a unified military. They are an alliance of individual city-states.

So, with the Greeks of Koinon Hellenon, what you really have is a Spartan army, an Athenian army, and a Rhodian army. All organised slightly differently, even if they use very similar units. Sparta might emphasise a head-on clash with old-style hoplites and missile troops in support. Athens might emphasise battles of maneuver, outflanking peltasts and skirmisher cavalry with new style hoplites and phalanxes in support. Rhodes might emphasise missile fire with Rhodian slingers, with classical or levy hoplites in support. Each army will have its own preferred fighting style, but be able to combine with the others if necessary when a very large field army is required.

Later, after expansion, Koinon Hellenon might have a Corinthian army, a Thermon army, a Syracusan army, a Cretan army, a Massilian army, etc, etc, etc. All organised slightly differently, with the tactical emphasis on what locally-produced unit is the most effective, and its own style.

Romans = uniformity. Greeks = variety!
and:
Romans = simplicity. Greeks = complexity!

Basically, no two Greek armies would be exactly the same. Unlike Roman armies.

[Unintended BM]

For the greeks, I usually use a bunch of classical hoplites and family members as my main line, then get a bunch of cavalry and heavy infantry to circle around and flank while the hoplites hold the enemy in place. That probably isn't the most effective strategy for KH, but I'm used to pikemen, and if you put hoplites in guard mode, they kind of serve a similar purpose. I like the mobility of hoplites too. You don't have to keep on lifting and lowering your spears to move around.

[fraoula]

Rome has a unified (i.e. standard) military. All legions are organised more or less identically.

The Greeks do not have a unified military. They are an alliance of individual city-states.

So, with the Greeks of Koinon Hellenon, what you really have is a Spartan army, an Athenian army, and a Rhodian army. All organised slightly differently, even if they use very similar units. Sparta might emphasise a head-on clash with old-style hoplites and missile troops in support. Athens might emphasise battles of maneuver, outflanking peltasts and skirmisher cavalry with new style hoplites and phalanxes in support. Rhodes might emphasise missile fire with Rhodian slingers, with classical or levy hoplites in support. Each army will have its own preferred fighting style, but be able to combine with the others if necessary when a very large field army is required.

Later, after expansion, Koinon Hellenon might have a Corinthian army, a Thermon army, a Syracusan army, a Cretan army, a Massilian army, etc, etc, etc. All organised slightly differently, with the tactical emphasis on what locally-produced unit is the most effective, and its own style.

Romans = uniformity. Greeks = variety!
and:
Romans = simplicity. Greeks = complexity!

Basically, no two Greek armies would be exactly the same. Unlike Roman armies.


Hey that's a wonderful idea! You can even role-play that the metropolis might want to conquer their colonies ( Sparta - Taras, Corinth - Epidamnos, Amnbrakia etc.) with their own armies.
Thanks for the suggestion mate.

[Mulceber]

My standard set up was 8 units of Hoplitai (just the standard, classical hoplites), 3 units of Epilektoi Hoplitai, 3 units of Spartiatai Hoplitai, 1-2 family members with their somatophulakes, 2 units of Thureophoroi and 2-3 units of heavy cavalry (usually Xystophoroi Hippeis). Once I started getting further west (into Sicily), I tended to replace the Spartiatai Hoplitai with the more locally available Syrakousai Hoplitai. -M

[Nachtmeister]

Hey, long time no see, had lots of uni-stuff to do...

1) really depends on whether you want efficient game-play or historical role-play...
I am no expert on Greek history, so here's a suggestion for an efficient roster:

- Don't use full stacks; they will only drain your treasury. You can win battles with fewer units.

- Use hoplites as your main battle line, ~4 units plus FMs in the later game, use FMs entirely in the beginning until you can recruit hoplites, use them as suggested above in guard mode to frontally engage enemy units and keep them in place for flanking, bolster them with some levy hoplite units
- peltasts are great flankers on your *left* flank, first expend all javelins on enemy rear or enemy right-side, then charge into melee and use the swords to quickly rout the enemy right flank, ~1-4 units depending on the size of your treasury
- akontistai can support the initial peltast javelins with their own but keep them away from melee because they will get slaughtered
- slingers are best for killing enemy cavalry generals (or at least reducing the number of their bodyguard) and killing phalanxes because peltasts take too long to kill them in melee and the casualties of the hoplites pinning them down will mount while the peltasts get exhausted and counter-attacked...
- ekdromoi hoplitai to cover the flanking peltasts and to counter flanking enemy cavalry, ~2-3 units
- hippakontistai to disrupt the enemy battle line before your hoplites engage them and to kill routing infantry afterwards, especially important if you fight phalanxes as you don't want to have to rout them more than once because you always get casualties when fighting them, always keep at least 1 unit with every army, better to have 2, any more will become ineffective to manage
- if they are available, 1-2 units of hippeis xystophoroi for hammer-and-anvil tactics, after the peltasts have spent their missiles or on your right flank to attack both enemy flanks at the same time, 2 units might be a bit un-historical because the KH had restricted access to horses and thus a limited cavalry arm, but if you want to insta-rout an enemy phalanx you will need 2 units charging simultaneously.
- toxotai kretikoi to counter enemy missile units and cause huge casualties to any lightly or un-armored units
- a "large" fleet after you unite Hellas and have mines all over the place; the rhodian trieremioliai (sp?) are the most cost-effective ship type of the KH but you have to extensively upgrade the rhodian naval port to get access to them; you can also build them in Antiocheia and Alexandreia if you decide to conquer the east, not sure about the other naval ports, you can't build them in Athens. Your fleet should be safe from being *sunk* in a single attack with 3 units of trieremioliai, even against the occasional huge Ptolemaioi double-hull-ships.

2) Kill off Makedonia and Epeiros and unite all of Hellas including Tylis and Serdike and Illyria before going overseas in any direction, also get any gold mines up and running and make sure you take Kreta in the starting turn with the Spartan army, then fortify the borders (1 half-stack army in the west, 1 in Pella, then either try to support all revolting cities (but that makes for a very long and slow campaign and it will severely drain your treasury) or focus on one direction; personally, I prefer to go east and take Asia Minor for it's mines and port cities, but prepare for a permanent war with both the Ptolemaioi and the Seleukids from there on.
You could also try to conquer the Thraikian tribes, but be warned that they get very tough if you don't absolutely rush them.
If you support the Krim colonies against the Sarmatians, prepare for an endless war there; they will come with a full stack every three rounds or so.
Supporting the Iberian colonies is rather impractical until you control at least Sicily. If you do, take Kyrene - usually the Ptolemaioi take a long time to attack there and it gives you a nice trade income.
If you support Syrakousai and the south-italian Hellenes, either sack rome immediately or prepare for a reeeally tough and long war. Either way, you might want to wait before attacking Rome because of the march of time event - which leads to

3) - you get phalangites when the Romans build a "huge city" that is not Rome itself in Italy, usually that's Capua.
You can also "cheat" by taking Capua, making it a huge city and then force-diplomacy-giving it to the Romans - or so I read somewhere here in the past, haven't tried it myself yet.
And you *want* phalangites. The KH can afaik not recruit regional pantodapoi phalangitai so they rely entirely on the factional phalanx units...

I hope this helps.

[Andronikos]

I agree with Titus Marcellus Scato's post, that's just my way of playing as KH. You can also roleplay reforms, such as using Thorakitai after battles with Romans or phalangitai after battles with diadochoi (these phalangitai require MOT reform) and use FM with proper ethnicity to command the right army (a Spartan command Spartan army, Athenian FM commands Athenian army...), for colonies or cities that aren't represented by ethnicity use the closest one.

[NikosMaximilian]

1) At the start, my KH full stack armies look something like:
-1 or 2 FM
-4 Hoplitai (Classical Hoplites)
-2 Thureophoroi
-2 Ekdromi Hoplitai (Light Hoplites) or 2 Thorakitai Hoplite (Greek Hoplite Phalanx)
-2 Toxotai/ Toxotai Kretikoi
-2 Sphendonetai/ Rhodoi Sphendonetai
-2 Lonchophoroi Hippeis
-2 Hippeis / Hippakontistai
-2 Units of whatever I feel I would need the most depending what'll be the objective of the army (if it will siege a settlement, 2 artillery pieces), the composition of the enemy stack, etc.

Later in the game:
-2 Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Koinon Hellenon Phalanx)
-2 Epilektoi Hoplitai (Greek Distinguished Hoplites)
-2 Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartans Hoplites)
-2 Thorakitai
-2 Misthophoroi Thraikioi Peltastai (Mercenary Thracian Peltast)
-2 Toxotai Kretikoi or Bosphoran Archers or Caucasian Archers
-2 Sphendonetai Rhodoi
-2 Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry) or Lonchophoroi Hippeis
-2 Skuda Baexdzhyntae (Schytian Raiders)
-2 Hippeis Thessalikoi / 2 Xystophoroi

However, as Titus Marcellus Scato pointed out, the Greeks depend much on regional troops, because you won't be able to retrain many of your best troops in several regions. An example, you can swap Spartan Hoplites for Galatian or Thracian Swordsmen.

2) My first objective is to control the triangle that goes from Sparte to Dalminion to Kallatis. Which means, your first objective is to defeat the Epirotes and Makedons, and leave them with a single settlement in Italy and Mytilene respectively (if they accept ceasefire and trade rights after this, great). Later, war with the Getai will follow. After that, the Sauromatae and Arche Seleukeia await. You could try to achieve your objectives with naval invasions on your target cities bypassing land battles, but I don't like to play KH that way.

[NikosMaximilian]

Oh, and I forgot. If some distant colony like Emporion or Massilia revolts to you, have a diplomat ready to give that settlement back to the previous owner for a ceasefire. Fighting that far away early in the game is a total waste of resources.

[etipac]

Thanks for your replies people, Since the FM are all fighting on foot is there a different way to fight with them. Meaning from the front or rear, charging or not and so on...

Etienne

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I'd say, do it according to what bodyguard the general has.

If he has Spartan bodyguards, then he's a Spartan, so he's going to do the Spartan hero thing and fight in the middle of the front rank of hoplites, facing the enemy charge head on.

If he has Athenian bodyguards, then he's Athenian, and he might fight on one of the flanks, or even be used as a reserve unit the way Romans would use a unit of triarii.

[ARCHIPPOS]

I'd say, do it according to what bodyguard the general has.
If he has Spartan bodyguards, then he's a Spartan, so he's going to do the Spartan hero thing and fight in the middle of the front rank of hoplites, facing the enemy charge head on.
If he has Athenian bodyguards, then he's Athenian, and he might fight on one of the flanks, or even be used as a reserve unit the way Romans would use a unit of triarii.

actually the best hoplite contigents would typically assume the far right edge of the battleline that was "shieldless" and thus considered more exposed...

[Ludens]

If he has Spartan bodyguards, then he's a Spartan, so he's going to do the Spartan hero thing and fight in the middle of the front rank of hoplites, facing the enemy charge head on.

If he has Athenian bodyguards, then he's Athenian, and he might fight on one of the flanks, or even be used as a reserve unit the way Romans would use a unit of triarii.

Remember that only the starting Spartans get a Spartan bodyguard. After that, the game assigns all KH generals the standard bodyguard.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Remember that only the starting Spartans get a Spartan bodyguard. After that, the game assigns all KH generals the standard bodyguard.

Indeed.

I roleplay this as the KH finally learning not to put their generals in the front hoplite rank, after a few Spartan generals get themselves killed doing that! Generals should be running the battle, not trying to be Achilles at Troy...


actually the best hoplite contigents would typically assume the far right edge of the battleline that was "shieldless" and thus considered more exposed...

Yes, plus the Greeks weren't big on keeping large units in reserve, unlike the Romans. They normally put everything in the front line.

[fraoula]

Indeed.




Yes, plus the Greeks weren't big on keeping large units in reserve, unlike the Romans. They normally put everything in the front line.

Yes but that was because the whole hoplite tactics (especially after Leuctra) relied on the first impact on the enemy and if they did not break trying to outflank them from a single line.
In a way the hoplon shield and a hoplites armour (due to the combined mass of all the soldiers) were the primar offensive weapons and not so much the spear so it was critical that they could hit as hard as they could on the first charge.

[Jive]

Oh, and I forgot. If some distant colony like Emporion or Massilia revolts to you, have a diplomat ready to give that settlement back to the previous owner for a ceasefire. Fighting that far away early in the game is a total waste of resources.

Roger that. After about a decade of defending Halicarnassos from the AS (mostly bridge battles north of the town), it was finally time to take Sardis. That fell like a ripe plum, but all of a sudden the Pontics showed up with overwhelming force. My puny effort to relieve Sardis was a disaster, and a couple turns later Halicarnassos was lost. What a waste of time, energy, and money.

So apparently it's better to concentrate on Greece, hold Crete and Rhodus (a bit challenging on BI execute with all the amphibious incursions), and take out Epiros along with southern Italy. At least that's how the campaign's going for now. But of course anything can happen...

[Ca Putt]

A bit of necromancy, however:

Yeah fighting in Anatolia can be quite a vietnam for the KH. Campaigns there tend to take ages and consume massive amounts of silver and blood.
Only attack anything outside Halicarnassos when you have the means for a prolonged campaign. I only succeded in this endevour when I had strong outposts on the crim and Rhodos, aka could provide troops from there. it still took me the same time to conquer anatolia as to conquer Italy and france.

[seleucid empire]

A bit of necromancy, however:

Yeah fighting in Anatolia can be quite a vietnam for the KH. Campaigns there tend to take ages and consume massive amounts of silver and blood.
Only attack anything outside Halicarnassos when you have the means for a prolonged campaign. I only succeded in this endevour when I had strong outposts on the crim and Rhodos, aka could provide troops from there. it still took me the same time to conquer anatolia as to conquer Italy and france.

I agree, the KH troops just aren't as lethal as other faction troops and I have a hard time fighing in asian minor and dealing with the hellenistic phalanxes and their heavy cavalry. I usually lose about 400-500 men in a fullstack vs fullstack battle, which is twice as much as I would using a faction that has phalanxes and great cavalry.

[Rovert]

There roster is useless later on , i just bump up unit numbers when playing with them , i make Hoplitai , Light And Heavy Thorakitai's 200 man units along with the Elite Hoplitai and i mean the thorakitai with swords.
They have crappy troops and less numbers in battles , nothing like have a pike line 3 times longer than yours lol.
With this i usally have 4 of each or 3 of each with archers and cav. Depends who im fighting.

Usally when you fight KH its funny looking at them there army is so small , pikes are 240 at least some of ur guys should be 200 man units.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Just supplement the KH factional troops with mercenaries to bulk out your army. The Greeks were frequent employers of mercenaries historically.

[Ca Putt]

Plus they have easy access to Mercs'R'Us just at the Cape Tainaron, while being one of the most wealthy factions later on. They do have factional=cheaper versions of some of the most popular mercenaries however, namely Tessalian Lancers and Cretan archers.

A healthy mix of imported Regional troops mercenaries and factional troops is the way to go for the KH.

[moonburn]

not to mention that is actually historical just see the example of tarentum who relied to much on mercenaries that their only troops where the cavelary

[seleucid empire]

Plus they have easy access to Mercs'R'Us just at the Cape Tainaron, while being one of the most wealthy factions later on. They do have factional=cheaper versions of some of the most popular mercenaries however, namely Tessalian Lancers and Cretan archers.

A healthy mix of imported Regional troops mercenaries and factional troops is the way to go for the KH.

question: are the factional ones stronger or weaker than the mercs? cause i know they have different stats but I dont know if hey are better or worse. Im talking about the cretans here. I know the Thess merc and factional cav are the same one.

[Ca Putt]

The regular one has one armor point less, and costs 90 minai less. Considering it's an archer I think that's ok. I think it's the same as that others can recruit on crete and some other places, just that they get it from the factional barrack, not sure atm.

The Koinon can however train the very similar Greek noble cavalry, which is quite a bit weaker but also costs 1000 minai less, and If you ask me does the job done just as well.

My statement is a bit disputable.

[Cambyses]

KH is often the most fun cos you can run the campaign using regional and/or city state armies, ie Sparta or Athens. Hoplite is a very strong unit, can really only be beaten by elites. Peltasts are extremely versatile (and use swords). use light infantry to flank, but dont trust Therophoroi [sp] etc on their own too far from the general. KH realyy do fight best in a line... Cav are for chasing down routers only. Later you can bring elite cav and phalnxes. But that makes things very easy.

Oh, and the FM is ur best reserve, alive general = win.

[seleucid empire]

Hoplite is a very strong unit, can really only be beaten by elites..

yeh but they take high casualties even when facing medium or low tier troops