Request to Community

[Lord Krazy]

I have nearly 90 free unit slots
waiting to be filled in with new units.

I would like you guys to submit
the name and weapon of a unit or
units of choice so I can release a mod
with 90 new units that you picked
I would prefer to do this then
choose them all myself.
It would be better to let you guys pick anyway so if you have a unit you
want to see in the game or at least
in my mod PLEASE let me know.
First serve first come or something like
that.

I will be posting two new units later.
It will be a musket unit
and a musket with bayonette
no new battelfield lbm icon
or info_pic or unit model yet
but the res will be new
and bad as it is a test unit
to play around with.
They will not be perfect
but neither am I and I made
them.

Lord Krazy

[Stefan the Berserker]

Things I would like to have:

Foresters - Woodmen with doubled-axe and a Robin Hood Style Suit + medium Armor.

Puzta Riders - Horse Archers for Hungarians.

"Schwertlanzer" - Pikemen with "Euro-Naginata" and heavy Armor. Nice for killing Knights! (Real Unit programmers forgot!)

Skirmisher Cavallary - Light Cavallary throwing Spears.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Before I forget:

Hungarian Knights!!! Lightly Armored and FAST!!!

And the Puzta Riders should be mighty!

Great Idea Krazy! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Kraellin]

i'd like to see some pitchfork peasants, some real rabble. maybe some small scythes, cudgels, clubs. surely all these armies werent as well equipped as the game depicts.

K.


------------------
http://home.domaindlx.com/takiyama/kraellin/icons-1.gif

[Wellington]

Mounted pistolier would be very nice LK.

Any change of a Slinger! I've been looking at this possibilty and it look's f*****g hard to do!!

[hectogg]

new units

i like to see:

Avar light cavalry (lance)
scotish archer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gifbow)
Avar Heavy Cav (Lance)
timur Heavy cav (mongol heavy cav)
timur light cav (mongol light cav)
sicilian mercenary (bow)as German units
murabatin spain mercenary (as spain service)
Magyar Light Cav (lance)
scandinavian archer
Norman Heavy Cav (feudal knight)
saxon fryrdmen (lance+round shield)
norman archer
rus warrior (axe and spearman shield)
asiatic Heavy Cavalry (lance)
georgian cavalry (lance)
seljuk horse archer
viking bondi (axe+round shield)
ottoman handgunner
wallachian light cavalry (bow)
syrian christian archer
Bulgarian Heavy Cavalry (lance)
flemish pikemen
scotish pikemen
morish crossbows
condottieri heavy infantery
condottieri light infantery

if you need i can send more specific units
regards
Hector

[Lord Krazy]

Thanks guys thats great
btw hectogg we should call you unithogg
If I don't get a large feed back from
different ppl u will see a lot
of your units but if I do then
I will ration them out to give
a flavour of the community
which is my goal with this.
So you can suggest more but
you wont get them all
so the ones you relly want first.

Welly slingers I wish to do but yes
will require work and I'm just
going to basic stuff first
Mounted pistol no problem
coming next.

The Musket will be uploaded
in a few minuets.

Thanks again guys

LK

[Lord Krazy]

Posted muskets but forgot to
put a musketA folder in weapons1
so you can do this.
Just create MusketA folder in weapons1
and copy the fight.txt
from the arquebusier folder.
It so the sword shows when they
fight.Can you say that 10 tines quickly?

Btw K,
I couldn't agree more about rabble
I will do of more them

If I forgot anthing else, tell me.
Thanks,

LK

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Things I would like to have:

Foresters - Woodmen with doubled-axe and a Robin Hood Style Suit + medium Armor.


http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------

Did you know that you have a robin hood
bifs and buffs in the
campmap\pieces\agents:folder
which you could use as the assassin
by changing the names
try it out.

LK

[Lord Krazy]

I was just thinking
if I could get mounted musket
to dismount and fire in
battel would aynone use it?
It would need alot of work but it can be done
this is why I'm asking because I'm
not doing this one just to amuse me
if you know what I mean.

LK

[Hakonarson]

You mean a Dragoon?

I'm sure the renaissance and ECW buffs would love you for it!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Skelington The Great]

Chinese Harquebus Mercenaries? No idea about the reality of such, but they'd be cool. (available by 1400?)

I have to second the mention of mounted handgunners, Viking Bondi, and Scandic archers. Great ideas.

[shand994]

i would liek some more religious order untis added. They could have chapter houses etc as requirements to build.

[cromwell]

How about some Welsh unit's
they also have a cool dragon as their symbol.

[Coug]

I got an idea for a siege weapon. I know that DeVinnci was working on a thing called an organ gun. I dont know if there was a working model. But it was a cannon with a a bunch (6 or 7 small) cannon barrels in line and it would fire em all at once. I think it would be a cool addition to the game. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Coug (edited 10-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Coug (edited 10-17-2002).]

[Lord Krazy]

This is great so far so good

Yes I mean dragoons

Chineese guys ah on a slow boat I supose.

Welsh units ,can you think of a name
or will I call them Taffy yeoman
with leeks as weapons.
could try harder he he

6 barrel cannon how about a laser gun
and fighter planes emm
sorry later mod muc later

and some guys with bibles
the mormons by any chance
see leek

most of these should be no problem
Like I said name and weapon please
and some idea of what it looks like
in comparison to MTW units
because I can't add new bifs
just change the ones that are there
this is a hardcoded list so I ca't change
that just the weapons for now,
so the bifs stay compatable.

Thanks,

LK

[dclare4]

Mounted pistoleers
Dragoons (perhaps the best way to simulate this is making them fire from the saddle. They have to stop to fire anyways so that can simulate dismounting to a certain degree)
Wild Geese (shock Irish infantry with arquebuses and shillelaghs)

I think I listed down the units for Reformation TW in an earlier post...

Best of Luck,
Gilbert de Clare

[Coug]

I know its a real gun, I'll go look and find a picture of it.

[This message has been edited by Coug (edited 10-17-2002).]

[Coug]

My bad the gun had 3 sets of 11 barrels, but no lasers. Sorry there Krazy.

"Triple-Tier Machine Gun: There are eleven barrels in each tier. While one is fired, another tier is loaded, and the third cools."

go here and have a look for yourself smart ass
http://www.lib.stevens-tech.edu/collections/davinci/inventions/index.html

[Swoosh So]

I would like to see a scottish bagpipe unit that caused -1 morale to enemies in hearing distance http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


Swooooooooooshoooooooowl

[Stefan the Berserker]

Thunderiders! Cavallary Grenadeers!!! Nice to hit heavy armored Units and weak Castles http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

And Pagan Warriors!!! Vikings in HRE-Services!

Two fictive Units that would be great:

Naptha-Thrower-Cavallary and Knight-xBow-Horse-Archers!

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
Mounted pistoleers
Dragoons (perhaps the best way to simulate this is making them fire from the saddle. They have to stop to fire anyways so that can simulate dismounting to a certain degree)
Wild Geese (shock Irish infantry with arquebuses and shillelaghs)

I think I listed down the units for Reformation TW in an earlier post...

Best of Luck,
Gilbert de Clare[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------
I was thinkihg get of the horse more so
as it could be used for other mods then
like American civil war.
As for shillelaghs
this is a hawtorne stick
used as a walking stick
and you can sit on it,
but you are taking the piss,
arn't you?


thanks

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[ICantSpellDawg]

more religious warriors, but they will all look bad cuz i dont think you can change the mantles that they wear (can you??????!!!!!)

[Stefan the Berserker]

Oi! Diffrent Horses!

There are only brown Horses, why not make black and grey Horses for diffrent style of Cav?

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Oi! Diffrent Horses!

There are only brown Horses, why not make black and grey Horses for diffrent style of Cav?[/QUOTE]

Because it can't be done - yet.

[Galestrum]

Byzantine Auxileries (light javelin throwing spear infantry - light armor and shield) kinda like kerns

Byzantine Menavlatoi (heavy infantry pikemen)armor piercing anti cav unit

Anatolian Highlanders (similar to Bulagarian Brigands - armed with bows and axes)

Armenian Infantry (similar to ottoman infantry bows and swords)

Pronoai Infantry (feudal men at arms)

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Wellington:
Because it can't be done - yet.

[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------
Yes it can,I just don't think it's a priority
you will have to change one of the horses
thats there but it can be done.
How about a pieball poney.
LK

[Lord Krazy]

galestrum,
this is a good example of what
basic info I need.


Ok this is going well I'll give it another
couple of days and I'll get cracking
I'll finalise a list show you what it
is and if you want you can then tell me
if you would like them to good or bad
at anything in particular stats wise
and it won't take to long to finish
then.

Thanks alot guys
even the Krazy ones I like Krazy things

Lord Krazy

[shand994]

You know what I think would be good, everyone keeps saying the mongols are strong enough, how about adding all the units they get from Warlords. and makeing them only availible to them. Everytime i come up agaisnt them i always think the reason i beat them is they never have enought variety of units.

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Things I would like to have:

Foresters - Woodmen with doubled-axe and a Robin Hood Style Suit + medium Armor.

Puzta Riders - Horse Archers for Hungarians.

"Schwertlanzer" - Pikemen with "Euro-Naginata" and heavy Armor. Nice for killing Knights! (Real Unit programmers forgot!)

Skirmisher Cavallary - Light Cavallary throwing Spears.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[/QUOTE]

when you say euro naginata do you
mean with a pole ake type weapon
in which case you want a pike pole axe
this sounds good actualy did exist
who cares for this guy I will make
a pike pole ake .Do you know what it
looks like or do you want me
to use my imagination.

As for the rest I will post a list
of which will be the 90 new units
and I should be finished putting them in the prod11,
dead page,
and bif entries
by tonight
all jags units will get in because he is sending all the relavant files
If any one else wants to do so I am willing
to make amedments.To the list anything to
less work he he.

LK

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:

I think I listed down the units for Reformation TW in an earlier post...
[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------May I request you do it again here I
can't find it.

Thanks
Lord Krazy

[Lord Krazy]

unitname:weapon: who gets them : suggeted by:

1 Schwertlanzer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gifoleaxe pike: some german place: Stefan the Berserker

2 Puzta Riders:bows: hungarians: STB
Stef I can do double axe guy but robin hood suit would take a week alone
so if you want him without the leotards I'll put him in,
if they had bows I could use the janissarybows they look like
a cross between robin hood and an elf.

3 Mounted pistolier:guess: all : Wellington


Next bunch by Hectog speaks for it self more or less but I need some clarification
on a few like condottieri asaitic and avar who gets them they sound
scottish and jewish to me and what weapons do they get?


4 Avar light cavalry: (lance);where?

5 scotish archer: bow:

6 Avar Heavy Cav (Lance)where?

7 timur Heavy cav :lance?: (mongol heavy cav)

8 timur light cav:bow: (mongol light cav)

9 sicilian mercenary (bow)as German units?

10 murabatin spain mercenary (as spain service)

11 Magyar Light Cav (lance)

12 scandinavian archer :bow: 3 countries guess

13 Norman Heavy Cav (feudal knight)

14 saxon fryrdmen (lance+round shield)

15 norman archer

16 rus warrior (axe and spearman shield)

17 condottieri light infantery :?:?:

18 condottieri heavy infantery:?:?:

19 georgian cavalry (lance)

20 seljuk horse archer

21 viking bondi (axe+round shield)

22 ottoman handgunner

23 wallachian light cavalry (bow)

24 syrian christian archer

25 Bulgarian Heavy Cavalry (lance)

26 morish crossbows

27 asiatic Heavy Cavalry (lance)

28 Chineese arquebusier :gun: Shand994( he eh god loves a trier)
I'll do a couple of units for mongols I'll call them mercs but only let
mogols have them .Hows that? eg:mercenary Korean spearmen

next lot by Galestrum


29Byzantine Auxileries (light javelin throwing spear infantry - light armor and shield)

30Byzantine Menavlatoi (heavy infantry pikemen)armor piercing anti cav unit

31Anatolian Highlanders (similar to Bulagarian Brigands - armed with bows and axes)

32Armenian Infantry (similar to ottoman infantry bows and swords)

33Pronoai Infantry (feudal men at arms)

next bunch by

34 Light Irish Horse. A small 30 man cavalry unit with a javelin capability. Medium speed, low honor, low defense, low armor. Armed with a sword as well, but really a throw javelin and run unit. It can't stand up to anything else on a horse-nor much on foot that wants to fight..

35 Bonnacht Spearmen. An Irish javelin armed spearmen unit which represents a sightly lower quality spear counterpart to the Gallowglas and fights in close formation. Uncontrollable tendencies in battle

36 Breton Javelinmen. A javelin armed skirmisher similiar to the Kern but of smaller formation size and some small stat differences.

37 Scottish Pikemen. This unit lies between the 6 ft spear and 20 ft pike unit. Originally showed up around 1300. Stats to match between a spear and a pike. Weakly armored but good honor.

38 Flemish Pikemen. Similiar to Scottish Pikemen but better armor and defence due to the richness of the region. Honor like a reg pikemen.

39 Welsh Spearmen. An early era skirmishing spearmen with javelins. Formation spacing is between tight and loose. The unit has poor armor/defense but fast for skirmishing. Yet can also stand up to cavalry if necessary with their spears. Ideal for broken terrain. Uncontrollable tendencies in battle though.

40 Housecarle spearmen :spear

41 Early Noman knights :spear

42 Early Spanish Knights:spear

43 Early German Knights:spear

44 Geonese xbow:xbow

This lot inspired by Kraelinn:

45 peasant with: club

46 peasant with http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gifitch fork

47 peasant with:axe

if I can fit a scyth in the bif I'll do one but not sure yet K.

This lot by me:

48 Grenadiers : grenade\sword :all

49 Cuman mercenary cavalry:bow:mercs

50 Cuman archars:bow:mercs

51 Irish FootKnights:sword:irish

52 feudal bows :bows:all

53 Musket:musket with sword:all

54 Musket and bayonette:all

55 Nubian javalin:almohad
(I was thinking of doing a Zulu dawn mod with these guys.
I'm going to give them different names of course.Would you play it?
the idea would be that as the Zulus you got to kill the English
and as the English you have to kill the Zulus.I think it's very Original
yet based on history he he. )

I was thinking of doing personalised
royal bodyguards for each faction
and foot Knights to go with them


That makes the extra 90 odd I think
this does not have to be the case if you
got anymore suggestions.Plus
if I forgot something you think should
be there same goes
Another thing only 3 bifs have an animation for throwing
a javalin the peaseant, the bornous and the neginf,
so if you want a javalin tell which unit you want
I presume you all want the peasant one

Thanks

Lord Krazy

[Lungfish]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coug:
[B]I got an idea for a siege weapon. I know that DeVinnci was working on a thing called an organ gun. I dont know if there was a working model. But it was a cannon with a a bunch (6 or 7 small) cannon barrels in line and it would fire em all at once. I think it would be a cool addition to the game. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The Wars of the Roses group I fight with has a 3 barrled Organ gun, and are making a 9 barrled "street cleaner" from contempery drawing and descrptions. Having some probs with licencing as the police think it could count as a machine gun!!. BTW you dont fire all the barrels at once. You always keep at least one loaded for a last shot as the enemy charge in!! Lots of conditari mentions of guns up to 25 barrels.

------------------

[Stefan the Berserker]

Eh! I got a nice idea: Paladin!

Make a kind of Kensai-Knight riding on white Horse so he looks like the perfect Knight in those Fairy Tales from Middleages!!!

Paladin: "Myes is gay, but hero we are and fuck you up we can!"

[Stefan the Berserker]

Humm... Will send you what I mean on email, not a kind of axe, Sword-Pike! The German "Schwertlanze" should be known, isn't it? Its a Swordblade put on a Stick, in easy formulation... If the guy puts it in the Ground it's too late for the Knight!

Just look in your email, I have painted it now... Maybe the discription Euro-Naginata is not so precisely, sorry http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

But look at it, isn't it a nice weapon?

[Stefan the Berserker]

Actually Foresters have something to do with Elves: It are so called "Waldläufer", no idea to translate it but it are Bandits and Pagans who survived through hiding in the deep Woods. People in Germany and Scandinavia oftenly thought that these guys are Wargs (Wearwulfs). So you can make them with these bows...

[Galestrum]

Hey LK ill be giving you detailed report about my units, if you need further info just let me know here and thx for doing this =)

Byzantine Auxiliaries - they throw javelins in (ranged) and use spears in (melee), use the peasant bif. Look and feel should be byzantine, armed with medium shield and spear

missiles good vs armour, poor morale, defend well vs. cavalry, strong charge, weak attack

bldgs. req - town_watch2
unit size - 100
cost - on par with spearmen, support costs fairly low
faction(s) byzantine

Byzantine Menavlatoi - elite byzantine unit, use heavy pikes and shields and are armoured heavily, byzantine look and feel.

large shield, very good defense, armoured, defend well vs cavalry, good morale, disciplined, bonus vs. armoured troops, very good attack, very strong charge

Bldgs req. - Spearmaker3, armourer2
Unit size - 100
faction(s) byzantine

Pronoai Infantry - similar to feudal man at arms in look and weaponry (sword and medium shield)

armoured, good attack, good defense, good morale

bldg. req. - swordsmith 2
unit size - 60
faction(s) byzantine

Armenian Infantry - eastern/islamic/byzantine look and feel, armed with bows, and swords

armed w/ bows, good attack, strong charge, armoured

bldg req - bowyer1, swordsmith1, armor1
unit size - 60
factions - all factions
regions req - lesser armenia, rum, armenia


Anatolian Highlanders - eastern/islamic/byzantine look and feel armed with bows and axes

bonus vs. armoured troops, armed w/ bows, good attack

bldg. req - bowyer2
unit size - 60
faction(s) - all
req region(s) - anatolia

there you go and thanks =)

[CaPeFeAr]

LK, if you could plz make the original units from shogun you would be the hero of online play http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif we miss our old sprites.... so much attention to detail went into the first set of units, they were truly good looking... the no dachi... warrior monk... the ashi... the yari... the cav were better too... 900 yari cav charging at once was sweet.... i still have screenshots of it. seems they spent a lot less time on the unit graphics this time around...

if you could make a stw mod everone would be truly happy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif if i can help let me know!

[Galestrum]

LK a side note on the Byzantine Menavlatoi unit

Drop the bonus vs. armoured troops stat

and the unit should look something like the italian light infantry

ty again

[Lord Krazy]

Good news for K enough room to put a scythe
and the bif already has
a pitchfork at 141,240,204,247

bad news it has 8 other weapons so that would mean
not using one of the other weapons
as it can only take 8 weapons folders
So to get around this I will put them in the dervish folder .
It only has one unit ,that looks the part too.
I think they look more like celts then Dervish
It has loads of room so I can use this to add new weapons for the peasants.

I'v added 55 units to prod11, deadpage and names.txt so far
so I will get that done tonight more or less
Fell free to suggest more
---------------------------------------------

Stefan,Galestrum,
thanks very much makes that
things easier.Not sure how to get byzantian
look in peasant.bif ,maybe I'll try
and fix the LtopHelm.bif and add a throwing
animation seen as it's supposed to have
one for the almugarvar who seem to magic
thier javalin into flight .Its not because
they forgot to put the right numbers
in the right folder,no they just plain forgot
to draw it.
---------------------------------------------


CaPeFeAr,
This is more up baroccas street
thanks to him we know the principle is sound.
Now I'v been thinking ever scince
I managed to add the 90+ units ,that it
would be possible to add all the units
from shogun and I know somebody who wants to do it.I have told him already that I would
help out on this project.He told me about
this hero thing too but I'm to sure about that,look what happened to John Lennon
and you guys kill for fun, he he.
So if it's simply a case of just rearanging
the numbers and CA allow more bifs I'll do it soon .If not we will have to derive a suitable system which will take time.
Either way you will see some of them soon
by hook or by crook.

LK



[This message has been edited by Lord Krazy (edited 10-20-2002).]

[hectogg]

my units request,clarifications

Avar Light Cavalry -Turkish Faction similar
to Turcoman cavalry

Avar Heavy Cav-Turkish Faction similar to Early Ghulan cavalry

Timur Heavy Cavalry -Turkish faction similar
to Mongol heavy cav

Timur Light cav -Turkish Faction similar to
mongol light cav

sicilian mercenary -Hre faction similar to nizar unit

if yu need other clarification,pls inform
im not intened to yu put all my request,but
im happy with put most the units
regards
Hector

[Stefan the Berserker]

Nice Mongo-Unit: Cho-Ko-Nu Archery!

Mongos have brought many tech from Asia to Europe and from Europe to Asia (Venice Glasses and other stuff have been found in the grave of Yu Emperors!). So why shouldn't they get the Cho-Ko-Nu Crossbow? Asian Stuff of the first class!

Anybody here also complained about missing more Mongos...

Could you edit the Mongo-Warriors to be Crossbow Archers and drag down the reloadtime so they don't need more time to reload than a normal Archer? And make Samurai(yes) so they are not peasantlike! This is a nice unit!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Hehehehehehe

[CaPeFeAr]

http://www.fearfulways.com/pics/elmohead.jpg

[Lord Krazy]

Not exactly what I was planing for my
RoyalElmoHead bodyguard but nice touch
very life like he he.
The RoyalElmoHead bodyguard
Will look more like a hilbilly
with shotgun,wisky jar and overalls
This vision of beauty was approved
by the Big Head himself.
If it was not for him I would not
have been able to do so much
work early on.Don't ask it's a long
story.They will not be in this mod but will see them after the Big Head gets to ok it.

Nice one C
LK
---------------------------------------------

Btw Hec, we have some icons already

Timur light cav
Seljuk Archers
Vicking Bondi
and more to to come

Thanks for clarification
it helps

I reckon LBA and myself will
probabley do an icon.LBM for all of them
and the Review and Info bifs too.If you have
some already let me know.NOW

LK

[Galestrum]

*waits in great anticipation for the unit add ons* =)

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Galestrum:
*waits in great anticipation for the unit add ons* =)[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------
You can fecken wait do you know how many
files I have to rename never mind edit http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


I'll post an icon and bif pack later
for about 15 of the units
All the units that end up in this mod
will get a full set of icons
We will use the lbms made for the demo
waste not want not,so if you don't
like them LBA will be very angry he eh.
They wont be great but we tought it would be a nice touch.If we are going to rename them
we might as well open them and paste something else.We will try to use real
pictures of the units if we can.Yes some
of them actualy existed.


and I'll post an update for
the muskets.Wellington has done some great
work on the items files,it's very
worthy of public viewing.
new icon set for them too.

---------------------------------------------
Jag,
thanks for the stuff it helps loads.
---------------------------------------------

It's going well so you won't wait too
long.I learned that one from CA he he.


LK\LBA

[Rosacrux]

Do ya take late entries, Krazy?

Some Byzantine units:

- Klivanarioi(or Klivanophoroi): Heavy cavalry, the "tank" of the Byzantine army (something like the lancers). Great charge bonus, relatively slow (not lika Kataphractoi though) and all-armoured.


- Hosarioi: Light cavalry, armed with bows or javelins and lances. Good skirmishers and in pursuit, no armour. Region dependant (they came from Greece and Serbia). Maybe the hungarians should have those too (that's where they borrowed the term "hussar" from, anyway).


- Skutatoi: Light infantry, fast and armed with spear and shield, light armoured.


- Psiloi: "Psiloi" is a generic term to define the auxiliary troops that had no armor at all and acted as a supplement to the professional or regular army. Of those, you could make a decent Javelin unit for the Byzantines (they lack one). No armor, no shield, fast, low morale. armed with javelins and little axes and/or swords.

[Magraev]

Wow you guys know a lot - I'm impressed.

[Swoosh So]

I origonally posted the scottish piper, but realising this might not be feasable perhaps some scottish light cavalry, Mounted clansmen http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Never too late if I can't mod the mod
well what the hell are we doing he he.
Nice one guys ,still lot's of room
as I'm not going to do the royal knights
this time round.
Jocks on horseback it is
hiho lassy,been a Celt I feel
I have the right to take the piss out
ourselves.Skirts or britches?
your call swoooooosh.
I will be doing clansmen at leter stage
with tarten kilts and and ginger beards
weather or not the let us add new bifs.
I'm sure you'll use them .

LK

[Swoosh So]

Whats the attack mod for a bottle of irn bru? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[ick_of_pick]

you saying that klivanarioi are like a more advanced sort of kataphraktoi? it would be nice if the byzanines had an elite unit that could compete in the late game.
but how do slow units have a good charge? beats me.
i made a mod that makes pronoiai allegion better and more expensive: they cost 675 have charge 8 and defence 5
and i made kataphraktoi better: they cost 1500 charge reduced to 6 because they are slow. melee 7, defence 10, armour 10, honor 8, and the first two ranks can fight (because of the kontos)

[This message has been edited by ick_of_pick (edited 10-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ick_of_pick (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Odyssey of War]

Leonardo da Vinci wasnt even born until 1450.

Quote Originally posted by Coug:
My bad the gun had 3 sets of 11 barrels, but no lasers. Sorry there Krazy.

"Triple-Tier Machine Gun: There are eleven barrels in each tier. While one is fired, another tier is loaded, and the third cools."

go here and have a look for yourself smart ass
http://www.lib.stevens-tech.edu/collections/davinci/inventions/index.html [/QUOTE]

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
Whats the attack mod for a bottle of irn bru? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------
I don't know but Buckfast is +20 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
LK

---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I agree with Klivanarioi point
LK
---------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can count the last bunch in as well
btw

Did Leonardo da Vinci do LBMs
if so could you send them to me
plus acx files ocx files txx files and so on
and I will do your gun .Otherwise no cannon.
Real or not.I just can't do it.
It's a pain in the hole to be exact.


buy now busy
LK

[Stefan the Berserker]

I got some new Units!

Teutonic Footknights - Crusader Footknights exclusive to Germany. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Even Stronger than the gothic Footknight and this way, a real advance to nerve my neigbours... Only avarible with Chapterhouse, but nice strong fanatic Guy!

"Vollmaier" - Kind of HRE Yeomen. Vollmaiers are Farmers who own the Ground they Work on and can afford Sword and Shield and defend their country. So Farmers using a round shield with buckett and a germanic-styled sword like I sent you some time ago... Because they are moral-stable and you get masses of them, they're a nice Unit if you are on lowbudget and as Unit in Rebellions...

Don't know proper Name... Tax Inquister??? I mean a strategic Unit that collects tax from a province. You could make him this way: Edit a Spy so he makes Money, say 100Fl per turn, and that he drags down Loyality in own provinces and his Spy abilities are so low they atomatically get him if he goes to a foreign province. This extra-tax was not beloved by people in Middleages, but is good for income...

Hansean Cog - Cog that is more effective. Should be for England, Denmark, Germany, France and Poland.

Hansean Council - After Hansean League is formed, there should be
a possebility to build the Hansean Council as Building in Saxony. This thing is the Center of the Hansean League and makes a lot of money!

[Rosacrux]

Thanks LK, you are my main man http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


Ick_of_pick

Actually, the whole issue of the byzantine units in this game is kinda messed up. To clear this up: The klivanarioi (klivanophoroi) are another type of kataphractoi, usually armed with lances but not exclusively (maces, swords and axes of all sorts were utilized as well). Only issue being that usually the kataphractoi were something like the Byzantine Cavalry of the game, but with the armor of the Kataphraktoi. Bow and sword.

About the speed thing... well, even at relatively moderate spead, an all-armoured (both horse and archer) wall of lances, with all the noise and the psyche... well, it should've been a really terrifying sight for poor men who faced those.

Allthough gameplay-wise I think having the clivanarioi would add more options to the Byzantine player, like having an adequate heavy cavalry in the late stages - that would be especially useful when the patch adresses the swiss pikemen bug... err... issue.

[This message has been edited by Rosacrux (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Swoosh So]

Ahh this is a mod lord krazy that will be excellent as long as theres no super units or if there are at least the upkeep would reflect that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif looking forward to enjoying your hard work. Maybe a nice icon for you for this from the mods?


Swooooooooooooosh

[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 10-23-2002).]

[King David]

For Lord Krazy:

Spanish Caballeros (Knights) light Cav. From Aragon early 14th century
Alan (Turkish) without turbans Infantry
Aragonese Jinetes: Light Cav with Javalin and shield.

All these belong i spanish regions.. And are typical to the Early period of the Game hystoricaly..

Spanish Jinetes that can shoot on and off the horse in late periods... Not with pistols but with the longer range arbuskers or musket, cant recall the name..

Lord Krazy, I would like to learn how you do it...

[ick_of_pick]

ya i read about them, they were horse archers with a ton of armour, armed with sword and kontos, not lance, and would never charge. they would kinda trot into battle cause they simply had too much armour to charge effectively. the charging was left to the Allegions who were armed with lances. so i was thinking that the klivs should not be based on knights but slow unstoppable shock troops, and an upgrade of the kataphraktois, (like the way you upgrade royal knights) but would be very expensive.
a mistake that the disigners made (like i mentioned earlier) was basing kats on the european knights, and it would be nice to add some historically accurate variety in the cavalry types.

[This message has been edited by ick_of_pick (edited 10-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ick_of_pick (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Lord Krazy]

Ok guys thanks for all the help
and support.I'm not the only person doing
this so you can thank us all and yourselves
when it's finished.I still have alot of files
to write and rename and LBA has taken
responsability for the unit icons.
I will post a revised list
tomorrow I think.
---------------------------------------------
Swoooosh,
the bag pipes thing is possible
so later maybe.

LK

[Stefan the Berserker]

Eh? WAIT! If that Backpipe thing Swoosh wanted works you can make our Dark Age Priest that way, too: Make him so he is shouting increddebile words (I'll give you .wav) that cause massive fear on his foes! This way he can become part of interessting Strategies...

Imagine: Triarii are dismoraled and fannatic peasants rush in...

Nice Strategy: Defaeat strong Units with weak ones!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

King David,
Alan (Turkish) without turbans Infantry?
Never met a Turkish guy called Alan he he http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

So does he have a bow, if not I can't spite you and give him
a turban.

But seriously what weapons should I give this unit
and I can use any of the images in the game without a tuban.
You can't have any of our nice new superduper
ones that we made for ourselves and not letting
you see.I wish that were true he he http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
---------------------------------------------
Lord Krazy, I would like to learn how you do it...

Your asking the wrong guy he eh.
Sorry I can't help it.
Anyway not being funny do you mean editing production files and so
to add new units or do you mean editing the graphics or both.
You can find a wealth of information on this site alone
on how to do most things and the other things
will be documented eventualy I'm sure.
A guide so to speak is not available yet
as a set process has not been fully defined
for a total conversion and things will change in the patch
as to what effect that will have has yet to be seen also.
It maybe great it maybe minor or it might make no
difference at all.
If you want advice on things you don't understand
many ppl will be happy to answere your questions
and you can feel free to mail me.
I can help you with how to proceed,
where to start, what files to edit
how the unit animation's work
which software to use and so on
it's a big job to do the whole thing
but you can change and add many things with ease
I don't work alone that's always a good start too.

Check: animations how to :Wellington

and Giskard has a campaigne guide going

Barocca has loads of stuff from guides to utilities

and if I had a brain I'd give you a link.

Welly,Giskard: on threads here
Barocca: org downloads check the shogun stuff as well.


If you can follow that jibberish your a natural.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------
Patrons(I don't mean, people with more than 50 posts)
Any information you leave out pertaining to the unit make up
such as Weapon, Image, Period,Faction and stats
I'll have to use my imagination which I find hard to control ,
now the stats, I don't expect people to send me readymade prod files
(although if you could that would be great, then we could just compile it and
do the icons ) because not everybody can do it for starters and this is cool.
Telling me they are shit and peasant or though cookies and rather noble,
that would be a good start I'll get the idea at least.
Just tought I'd mention that again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Swoosh how about Highlanders with bag pipes on camels ,then they
could frighten the horses too with the smell.Em, or would they need camels
for that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
We have a nice icon for your highlandcav btw
we went for skirts so they could frighten the girls too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I hope you don't mind.Also you been Scottish and all that
is the underware optional, bare in mind children play this game too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
That's why I can't say " " on this forum.

I'll send you a screen shot of something
I think you'll find very interesting
if you don't mind.

---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Stef,
how about when he chants, if he get's
a double six on the dice rool, it will
rain, or should we keep that one for the Geronimo mod http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Regards

LK

[hectogg]

to Lk

any idea when the first v¡batch of new units
will be available?

regards
Hector

[Stefan the Berserker]

My poor Priest! Do you really think you don't can make him that way? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Ok give me a couple day's for first
copy.If you don't like it don't worry
I will update this soon after
and when the patch
comes I'll amend all the things that
need amending.So you could say it won't
be finished till the patch comes.
Which is not a bad thing we can sort of beta test it till most of you are happy
I refuse to make everybody happy
it's not healthy.Then I never want to see
any of you again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

_____________________________________________

Stef,
Priest can be done no problem
but I'm not sure if he would be compatable
with this mod but he would not be the only one not mentioning anyone particular http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
So if you cry some more I may give in.
With the fire fighters going on strike
here we could do with some extra water http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


_____________________________________________

Still some slot to fill btw

[Rosacrux]

LK

More details you want, more details you get


Some Byzantine units:

- Klivanarioi(or Klivanophoroi): One word: Lancers. Same armor, somehate lower charge bonus, more than a tad lower speed, up the defence/armour factor. Elite troops all the way. All periods

- Hosarioi: Something like the Jinnetes, with upped defence. Not any sort of nobility here. once more: Region dependant (Greece, Serbia) and available to Byzantines and Hungars. All periods.

- Skutatoi: Something like the Italian Infantry, with a tad lower defence and a slight increase to offence. Lower morale too. Early, high.

- Psiloi: Take the Muwwahid infantry, give them small axes (can you do that?) and take away their shields. Make them faster, too. Something like the kerns, maybe. Just weaker (and cheaper, too). Early, high.


ick_of_pick
You know the name Kondos? Nice, I thought you wouldn't, that's why I used the more generic "lance".

[Lord Krazy]

Ros,
Thats great thank's
as long as the bif in question does not
have 8 used weapons, which it doesn't
I can add weapons if they are not thier.
This will be on a sepeerate download
as I will be implamenting a few different
weapons and shields on different bifs
plus with the other graphics it will
be quite big by my standards so expect
to see them a little later.
First you'll just get the text files
lacking some descriptions too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

So buy now busy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

LK

[Swoosh So]

Are you going to make all the units look different? Phew ! would take ages

[Stefan the Berserker]

Gah! I have an easy made new Unit: Bandit Knights!

You know that there were Knights going to raid, so why not make them this way avaribale for Hire n' Fire Units section? I mean this Units you may hire if you got an Inn...

And this way also Muslims may get them, Knights who went Islamic are Historic and funny!

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
Are you going to make all the units look different? Phew ! would take ages[/QUOTE]

_____________________________________________
No just some new weapons
info_pic and review_panal bifs
and an icon.This won't take to long
I hope.

We already have some men in kilts
running around but only 5 frames
so far.They are a highland unit
that will appear in a Waterloo mod
we have planned for the future.
And if I say so my self they look
Jim dandy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gifbut this will be ages
to finish and we only plan on doing
a couple of units a side.

C ya
LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Gah! I have an easy made new Unit: Bandit Knights!

You know that there were Knights going to raid, so why not make them this way avaribale for Hire n' Fire Units section? I mean this Units you may hire if you got an Inn...

And this way also Muslims may get them, Knights who went Islamic are Historic and funny![/QUOTE]
_____________________________________________

funny ha ha or funny wierd

Historical yes aristocatic bastards
have always fought for money
lied for money betrayed for money
did most things for money actualy
so they are inn if you excuse the punn.
regards,


LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

ps if you are an aristocrate and I
have offended you, tough http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[ick_of_pick]

so klivanophoris should be something like upgraded kats with lances instead of the kontos?
it would be cool to give a unit with the kontos the ability to fight with the first two ranks. a really slow but strong cavalry unit. that requires a different style of warfare then the charge.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Oh, for every society there are good and not so good ones! Am I aristoctratic? Don't know, but I got some guy in my family tree who was SIR and part of Austrian Army, so perhaps... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Oh, dear! This poor world if I was the german Emperor!

[Stefan the Berserker]

Oh! And I got new Siege equipment!!!

I was on Holyday in Francosia this Summer, and visited the rests of an old Robber-Castle. In an old Story of the people there, there were "Leichte Mangen", which could fire 300 Meters! Scientists thought that this was Pub-Stuff... until they found the thing...

It is the "Light Magnoel", a smaller Magnoel put on an Axis like the Catapult. Of course, the light Magnoel is better than the Catapult, but it is also better than the Magnoel because it can be moved... But is of course weaker... HRE-Special Siege Weapon??? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Stef how do I get the mangonel to
move?

And if you were one you would not
be asking the question http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Lk

[Toledo's Maverick]

"(I was thinking of doing a Zulu dawn mod with these guys.
I'm going to give them different names of course.Would you play it?
the idea would be that as the Zulus you got to kill the English
and as the English you have to kill the Zulus.I think it's very Original
yet based on history he he. )"

Good god yes!

also, your probably doing this already but these units should mainly be area specific (like gallowglasses and genoese) That way we won't have to choose from forty units that we can build in a single province that are all essentially the same.

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by Toledo's Maverick:
"(I was thinking of doing a Zulu dawn mod with these guys.
I'm going to give them different names of course.Would you play it?
the idea would be that as the Zulus you got to kill the English
and as the English you have to kill the Zulus.I think it's very Original
yet based on history he he. )"

Good god yes!

also, your probably doing this already but these units should mainly be area specific (like gallowglasses and genoese) That way we won't have to choose from forty units that we can build in a single province that are all essentially the same.[/QUOTE]

_____________________________________________

I was thinking more of a few battles
I'm doing an africa map for this
I'm not that krazy
So they will be extemly area specific
ie the battles
LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Haven't I said that? It's smaller and put on a wagon like the Catapult! Through that, it can be moved like Catapult or Cannon.

Eh? Africa Map? Map Editor or Strategy Map??? If Strategy Map that would be great... Humm... must be possible somehow, but will certainly take some time...

In have such a funny modding idea: Crusader States? Yup, I'll make that! I'll give Israel to Papal States, thats a great idea! Then make Popel Major, give him Templars, Santiago and Teutonic... Must try! Must make Knight riding on Camel!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[chilliwilli]

How about a unit that can only be built in flanders that wields on of these:
http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm

I don't know the name of this type of soldier just the name of the weapon. A goendendag.

------------------
Master Guardian of The Turkish empire for The Oner Order of Ommisions. http://oooo.freewebspace.com/

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 10-26-2002).]

[antidotos]

Hi my lord !
I m probably a bit late but I need some special units for the mod I m working on (Diadochoi, that is Alexander's successors).
Before investing too much time in this mod I would like to know if it is possible to have these units :
- War Elephants
- War charriots (celtic)
- Helepoles (Assault towers used by Alexander and Demetrios Poliorcete)

The last one is probably hopeless and could be discarded, the charriots would be great but their role was minor, however the Elephants are strategic keys of the era, actually several types would be required.

Thanks LK and all for your great efforts.

------------------
Never Use Signatures...

[Lord Krazy]

I just made post that did not apear as it should have it was quite long
and I'm doing it again

so the gist was

Stef cannos turn they don't move http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Antidot
Get real, it would take months
give me something to work with
and you can have it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

and the weapons thing not seen yet
but weapons are easy.So I think so


regards
LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Shit forgot what I came here for daa!
Sample icons from LBA will be uploaded now
cheak them out and let me know what you
think http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gifThey are for the mod I'll post
the review panel bifs for these later http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
"TheLords_Sample_icons"


LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
_____________________________________________


[This message has been edited by Lord Krazy (edited 10-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Lord Krazy (edited 10-26-2002).]

[Lord Krazy]

Here is list of review_panel and info_pics bifs
to be created and compiled.
This will give you an ides of who's
in the mod so far.
We are not sure what to call it
so for the moment it's called
"The Lords Request Unit Pack"

They are not in any particular order


PeasantClubs.bif

ArmenianInfantry.bif

Feudalbows.bif

CumanArchars.bif

ScotishArcher.bif

SicilianMercenary.bif

Scandinavianarcher.bif

Syrianchristianarcher.bif

AnatolianHighlanders.bif

NormanArcher.bif

MorishCrossbows.bif

GeoneseCrossbows.bif

CumanMercenaryCavalry.bif

TimurHeavyCav.bif

AsiaticHeavyCav.bif

AvarHeavyCav.bif

NormanHeavyCav.bif

BulgarianHeavyCav.bif

GermanKnights.bif

SpanishKnights.bif

NormanKnights.bif

GeorgianCavalry.bif

TimurlightCav.bif

PuztaRiders.bif

WallachianLightCav.bif

SeljukHorseArcher.bif

AvarLightCav.bif

MagyarLightCav.bif

MurabatinSpanishMercenary.bif

ByzantineAuxileries.bif

BretonJavelinmen.bif

NubianJavalin.bif

ScottishPikemen.bif

FlemishPikemen.bif

Schwertlanzer.bif

ByzantineMenavlatoi.bif

HousecarleSpearmen.bif

WelshSpearmen.bif

BonnachtSpearmen.bif

SaxonFryrdmen.bif

RussianWarriors.bif

CondottieriLightInfantery.bif

CondottieriHeavyInfantery.bif

Pitchfork.bif

ChineeseArquebusier.bif

Grenadiers.bif

IrishFootKnights.bif

PronoaiInfantry.bif

Ottomanhandgunner.bif

Vikingbondi.bif

IrishLightHorse.bif

TeutonicFootknights.bif

SantiagoFootKnights.bif

TemplarFootKnights.bif

RoyalFootKnights.bif

HighRoyalFootKnights.bif

LateRoyalFootKnights.bif

Klivanarioi.bif

Hosarioi.bif

Psiloi.bif

Skutatoi.bif

BasqueSpearmen.bif

Peasantsjav.bif

Vollmaie.bif

Alan.bif

UskoksMusket.bif

MountedPistolier.bif

UskoksCAV.bif

SpanishCaballeros.bif

JinetesDeMusket.bif

AragoneseJinetes.bif

Axepeasant.bif

HighlandCavalry.bif


_________________________________________

Ok thats about 70 odd
and we have a few more finished
They all have an entry
in the prod11, dead page,names,descriptions
and an entry for all the icons camp and battle.
I have about 50 or so actionpages
to compile still and then the
I can do the items folder.
When this is done we'll
have 80 odd extra units
not perfect mind you.
I'll then need to sort out
the prod11 properly
and tweak all the other
errors I'm bound to make http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Thats when I'll release a provisional
prod and you tell me "NO NA B#%%#$K
they were suposed to be like THIS"
and I'll go finish them off http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

So by the time the patch comes
we'll have a good little mod
to test it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
(well I think so)
Regards,

Lord Krazy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by antidotos:
I would like to know if it is possible to have these units :
- War Elephants
- War charriots (celtic)[/QUOTE]


There are particular problems associated with these 2 unit types - both in the animation imaging and the usage on the battlefield (as determined principally by the contents of prod11).

A quick answer to your question, for both types -

Q: Could realistic animations be produced - Maybe
Q: Would this be difficult - Immensely
Q: Would these units be of practical use on the battlefield - No, not really

I'm writing up the specifics of 'why' in the Animations thread (PART 16) which should arrive in the thread in the next 3/5 days.

[Lord Krazy]

Welly ,
I think he was asking
for this mod.They can be done
of course I'v done work on
an elephant already
and as for practicality
who cares
and you can't say they didn't exist

I was more talking about
actualy drawing them.
So these will not feature until
the roman mod is done
unless somebody else does them
before that, which is very
possible.As for chaiots well
they won't be on my priority list.
I think they were more suited to
shopping http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
LK

[Wellington]

LK,
I know what you mean. In terms of practicality however I was thinking -

- animals have no offensive characteristics within MTW, so you could'nt get your Elephants to 'fight'
- only the action of the figure (the Mahout or the man in the Howdah)is relevant in MTW so you can't get the elephant to charge through an enemy line (it could only perform the charge action whilst the figure is fighting, which means charging on the spot!)
- when the elephant routs it would always AVOID the enemy!!! (in Shogun units used to rout through the enemy and before the patch also had a charge bonus for doing this - EXACTLY what is required for elephants in MTW - pity!)
- a routing elephant would cause damage to allied units as well (not simulatable in MTW)
- all 'fight' action characteristics would have to be associated with the figure, as opposed to the elephant, and presuming the elephant units were only 3/4 strong this would mean giving the figure extremely high values in prod11 (otherwise they die too quickly when opposed by a 40/60/100 strength unit). Can the MTW engine take the high values that would presumably be required?

Basically, with the current MTW engine, I suspect an elephant could only operate similar to a mount. No 'real' war elephant characteristics.

Thast's just the practicalities. There are also several potential problems with animation of a war elephant.

[Lord Krazy]

I know what you are talking about
and these points are very true
but even they just sit on the hill
eating peanuts they will still
look good.
Also we could mess around with
the stats of the riders.
You see if LateKnights can
have different stats to EarlyKnights
the why can't elephants have different stats
to the rest just like camels.
Now I am aware that the game engine will
not let us do all the things we desire
but we could have two riders with bow
or jav we can cause the elephant to
cause fear we can increase the charge and melle we can make them rout easily
so its not a dead loss and they will
look good even if they are scared of mice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
This still don't mean we are going to do it.


regards
LK

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
I know what you are talking about
and these points are very true
but even they just sit on the hill
eating peanuts they will still
look good.[/QUOTE]

No .. that's monkeys! Elephants eat bun's http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Unless you fancy making a Planet of the Apes mod!!!


Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
Also we could mess around with
the stats of the riders.
You see if LateKnights can
have different stats to EarlyKnights
the why can't elephants have different stats
to the rest just like camels.[/QUOTE]

Sure, changing the figure associated with the elephant is one way to make them more effective. Also you could make ALL units afraid of elephants, just as all cavalry (or horses) are afraid of camels.


Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
Now I am aware that the game engine will
not let us do all the things we desire
but we could have two riders with bow
or jav we can cause the elephant to
cause fear we can increase the charge and melle we can make them rout easily[/QUOTE]

I was only anticipating 1 figure on the Elephant, as that's all MTW allows. The other way, drawing the figures on the elephant plates may cause problems in terms of size in the BIF's (you's need 16 elephant images - with a howdah and 2 figures I suspect space problems http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif


Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
so its not a dead loss and they will
look good even if they are scared of mice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[/QUOTE]


A mice unit? As well as the monkeys? Jeez, these elephants are a pain http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
This still don't mean we are going to do it. [/QUOTE]

Nothing I'd like more than to see Elephants on the battlefield LK.

If you ever decide to have a crack at this let me know and we can do some simulation 1st (before the hard work re images takes place) to see how feasible it is.

[Lord Krazy]

quote:
_____________________________________________
I was only anticipating 1 figure on the Elephant, as that's all MTW allows. The other way, drawing the figures on the elephant plates may cause problems in terms of size in the BIF's (you's need 16 elephant images - with a howdah and 2 figures I suspect space problems
_____________________________________________

Welly,
Some great points again!

Firstly let's think about space,
I have some questions for you
I want you answere them too
as I value your opinion.

How tall is a camel?
How tall is an elephant?
I would say similar
if not the same.

The rider comes from a different bif
which can be altered too.
You could have the rider in a box
and a driver drawn on the elephants
neck with his legs hidden by the ears.

To cut a long story short
we have already run a feasiblity
test, by drawing an elephant and
putting a camel rider on it
and ran it in the game.
It kinda looked like an elephant
with a guy on top.The only
problem was that when it moved
it turned back into a camel.
Here my friend is the problem
I do not have the time to draw
other 10 million frames for
an animation that can not be
added to the game without
removing an original,
nor a mod to go with it
like the roman one.But this needs
a lot more work before we can justify
it.The elephants, not the roman mod thats
what needs the work http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Repainting is one thing, creating
a whole new animation for a new
image is another story.
This does not mean I'm not interested.
As you can see I have studied the subject
quite a bit, but I don't want
to get bogged down in projects that will require this sort of work at the moment.
I mean making one generic waterloo
unit and repainting for factions
would be much easier and would nearly
make a mod in itself.


Your help is always welcome round
these parts if not essential http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
So when we all get a bit more organised
we will be able to do all this shit.
It's also possible that some
wiz kid animator will show up soon
that does this stuff for breakfast
and then we could have it
for lunch http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
regards
LK

[antidotos]

Thanks LK for your kind attention -)
I was really talking about the feasability of introducing War Elephants.
By the way an elephant is at least twice as big as a camel...
However I feared that it was impossible but I thought there could have been a way round (with the camels as you pointed it) and someone as talented as one of the contributors to this thread might have had an educated opinion about that.
So your answer is very helpful LK as it is a decisive argument triggering my decision to stop working on the Diadochoi mod (that 's unfortunate as I had huge sources about this period) and concentrate on periods with men and horses (and camels) only.
(PS Whithout elephants we are also barred from modding any Asiatic campaign).

Thanks for reading.

------------------
Never Use Signatures...

[antidotos]

Thanks to Wellington too (even if I m French)

------------------
Never Use Signatures...

[ick_of_pick]

an idea for the klivonophoroi:
cost: 900
20 of them per unit
charge: 8
melee: 6
defense: 10
armour: 10
moral: 6
first 2 ranks can fight
make them just a tad faster then Kataphraktoi
i saw a picture of a mosaic made by the byzantines showing the emperor and his cavalry and the armour was black, so it would look cool if both the horse and man were covered in black plate armour with a purple blanket under the saddle to represent the emperors unit (purple was the royal color).

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by ick_of_pick:
i saw a picture of a mosaic made by the byzantines showing the emperor and his cavalry and the armour was black, so it would look cool if both the horse and man were covered in black plate armour with a purple blanket under the saddle to represent the emperors unit (purple was the royal color).[/QUOTE]


Hhhmmm ... sure would ....

... but who's gonna recolour the 384 mount images and 576 figure images in order to make them look so cool?

[ick_of_pick]

i could try....lol!

[Stefan the Berserker]

Nice idea for Inquisation Problem: Allow Pagans and Catholics to build a Strategic Unit called "Whitch", which is a very strong assasin!

Put it the other way around: Let's toast Inquisters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, WHAT ARE CHARRIOTS??? No idea...

EVIL IDEA: Kamikazè! Why not a religious fanatic that blows up himself and a whole Unit? Battlefield Hashashiri!

[Lord Krazy]

OK,
repaints on this are out for one reason and one reason only.I know it would take time
alot of time not for first version.
Maybe version 10
but we would do this for popular
units but we would have to remove
a unit image.I do not want to make this call
at the moment.We can if you, wish as I
have said before, any unit which
ends up in this prod will get it's own set of icons, send me the picture
and if I can use the image I will ok.
---------------------------------------------
Stef,
Chariots are things on wheels pulled
by horses like a wagon but it has to
two wheels and the rider stands.
It's about as useful as a
boat in the desert http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
---------------------------------------------
Thanks for info on unit btw
regards
LK

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by antidotos:
Thanks LK for your kind attention -)
I was really talking about the feasability of introducing War Elephants.
By the way an elephant is at least twice as big as a camel...
.

[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------
An African war elephant used by the
romans stood 2.5 meters an Indian
3.meters.I don't think a camel
stands at 1.5 meters.That would make
it smaller than me.
These are heights the Romans
said they were anyway.
This is the mod I intended them for
after all.
So if you were refering to an
Indian one you would not be correct neither.
So I reckon the camels in the game
are a bit big and the perspective
can be changed by defining the scale
and if you draw the box on the rider
you could make it look big enough, if not
perfect.One could always make the sprites
of the other units smaller for the mod
in question.The point being that it does
not really matter that much it can be done.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
---------------------------------------------
Btw could we move all the elephant shit
to an elephant thread as it's getting
away from the point of this thread
and it's quite big alredy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Lord Krazy (edited 10-29-2002).]

[Stefan the Berserker]

Chariotts! Looks very silly and not very realistic to me...

Stupid Question: Is mercenary the english word for a hired Soldier? We don't learn that things at school...

If this is it, why not allow "Tartar Mercenaries" (Mongos) for Russians, Hungary and Poland? The Mongos fighting in those armies as hired guys is historic and nice to play...

To my Kaikazè: Hashashiri? Those famous turkish killers! Or are they called Assasiri or something in english? Doesn't need new art, take normal turkish Cav on Camel. Then make it a small group of 3 Men... Use the "System" for a Grenadeer but drag down the range to 0, so they make BOOOOOOMMM too! Osama-Bin-Laden-Evil Unit but effective...

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Chariotts! Looks very silly and not very realistic to me... ...[/QUOTE]

Strange as it may seem, Chariots present far fewer problems than elephants.

Drawing the images on a BIF is far easier (chariots DONT move - only the wheels), so a lot less different images are required.

Chariots have little offensive capability (unless they have scythed wheels) other than threat and the prowess of the rider(s).

Chariots (the 1 horse version) are not too difficult to represent in MTW in respect of size and width - it CAN be done!

Stupid Question: Is mercenary the english word for a hired Soldier? We don't learn that things at school...[/QUOTE]

Yes. A mercenary, in English, is a 'soldier for hire' (although it was never quite as simple as that).

Then again Stef, as your German, how many English speakers know what a 'Lansknecht' or 'Reiter' is (even now I don't know if I'm using the accepted German words for these or the English 'translations' of these words!).

Military terminology across Nations can be SO confusing.

[Lord Krazy]

Range 0 for an area effect weapon
would be a bit risky.You might
hit something http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

If you want to see some of the
unit icons for the mod you can
have a look here:
http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/

It's just there so you can have look
and maybe give some feedback.

LK

[Lord_Lenny]

Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
Whats the attack mod for a bottle of irn bru? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]

heh heh go the irn bru!!! correct spelling to :d the scene could go a little something like this......

English Knight #1: look my liege, the scots, they appear to be carrying some sort of orangeish weapon

English Knight #2: Ye Gods!!! It's Irn Bru!!

English King: Ruuunnnnn!!!!!!

hehehe

[Lord_Lenny]

True the Celts did have War Chariots, but by the time of MTW i believe they weren't in use, mainly because the 'Celtic Nation' as a loose term had ceased to exist. The 'Celtic' Kingdoms now were Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Brittany. These nations had moved more towards foot infantry (mainly because their lands were to hilly for chariots to be used effectivley) Is it to late to suggest a new unit?? I believe that the Croats had effective light cav around this time, tho i'm not sure, also it may be abut early but cossacks?? say lightly/not armoured, good morale, fast, armed with only a sword and cause fear in enemies?? I've just seen the Polish movie 'With Fire and Sword' so i love cossacks at the moment http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[fenir]

Lord Krazy,

I have a small request if i may? I have had problems trying to get several of my mods to work.

I have tried to put a Royal Purple Blanket under my Katapharaktoi. Any suggestions? Mainly to represent the elite status of the unit.

Also, I have been trying to change the Byzantine standard spearman to a hoplite. So the Byzantine forces have an individual unit make up.
IF anyone, can help here I would appreicate it.
As it would be more realistic representation. Infact they still used the term hoplite for the sarrisa armed infantry even in 1148AD.

And if some one can make Byzantine Infantry with 2 light javelins? make them 225/250 cost, and the same infantry spec's, just with a javelin included.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Landsknecht has more than one meaning, it can be farmer or Retainer.

An Reiter is a rider, nothing more.

Through Schools want us to learn Languages to be friendly to foreigners, they logiacally don't teach us the Military English. I don't think you learned Military german.

[Lord Krazy]

It's not too late to suggest units!
The period will not really matter
seen as many of the units
I,v suggestsd don't fit the time
frame i.e. Musket ,Uskoks(croats)
Jinete de musket
and so on,that would mean cossacks
from their period would be fine by me.
I can split prods up
as well, late ,early, before the game,
after the game ,we wont stop when I
get 90 I'll just keep making more http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
So keep the suggestions coming.
I'm just going to release the first
90 togeather thats all.
We intend to be around for a while
so many prods and icons to come.
The first one is for fun and to experiment
with, how to do it.
The rest will be for fun too but
they will probably be more thought out
with less bugs and and better images.

Thanks LK


[This message has been edited by Lord Krazy (edited 10-31-2002).]

[fenir]

Just to clarify.

****HOPLITE****
Early period
Cost 350Florins.
Spearmaker3 Armourer1
Unit 100.
Rows Perferred 5
Support costs 75
March 6
Run 9
Charge 10

Charge 5
Morale 1
Melee 1
Defence 2
Armour 3 (Lamellar & chain).
Honour 2
(Armed with a Sarrisa, and sword).
Attack Cavalry 1
Defend Cavalry 5
V Armour No
Slow to turn.
Perfect formation.
Disciplined.
Samuri yes.
Very Strong Charge.

First three rows can fight.
Large round Shield (gold/Bronze colour).
Bronze Helmet.
Byzantine Only unit.
Valor Bonus Greece.
The unit above is actually one of the Byzantine Infantry used during the start, and before the start of the game.

*******Klivanarioi*******

Where actually how the Ottomans got there Spiahi of the Porte, it was a copy.
The Klivanarioi was actually a very heavily armoured Horse archer who was also used as a Shock Troop. They had Very heavy maces and tended to be unstoppable melee troops as their defence was enormous, Espeically with the Chain and Lamellar armour, with some plate combination. They where also nearly always nobles or minor nobles. Hence good morale and honour.

*******My personal Klivanarioi********
High period
Cost 950Florins.
Horse breeder4, Armourer4
Unit 20.
Rows Perferred 3
Support costs 95
March 9
Run 15
Charge 18

Charge 5
Morale 1
Melee 6
Defence 7
Armour 9 (Lamellar & chain W/ plate, Horse & Rider).
Honour 4
(Armed with a Bow, and Heavy Mace).
V Armour YES. With Mace only

[Fearless]

Hey Lord Krazy I checked out your site and congratulations to the work you have so far accomplished. I would however like a closer look at what you have already produced purely to see if the images require a professional clean up.

[King David]

Wow Krazy !!!

You should be a game developer.. That is some increadible artwork.. Keep up the good work.. Can't wait to see the finished product..

[BobBest conte de Toulouse]

Great job LK....amazing....

It will be nice to organize the new units by period:
classical : roman, greek...
dark ages : visigoths, franks...
middle ages...you know...
Napoleonic..

It will be so great to play historical battles that would use these new units..such as austerlitz, or Poitier (with Charles Martel against the muslim invasion...)

just a thought...

[ick_of_pick]

where is krazys website?

[Lord Krazy]

i_o_p,
you mean you have not read every
word I have wrote http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
why do I bother http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
hell I don't read
everything I write neither http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
It saves time just to write it.
http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/

Stop calling it my wed site,
peopel will get the wrong
idea.It won't be there very long.
Unless I forget to remove it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Anyway less of the adulation
shit.I just wanted to know
if they were what you were
kinda expecting.
I told you guy's already
I don't do this stuff by
myself we are a collective
a small but growing collective.
We are also part time as we
haven't figured out a way
to mod food yet http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
We are called "The Lords"
So my "site" is just their
so you could see some of the things
we are trying to achive
and what you could do to.
We are not experts by any
steach of the imagination.
To use an English vernacular,
we are a bunch of blaggers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It's just fun :

Thanks for all the bullshit anyway .

fenir,
that will be usefull
thank you.


Fearless,
same goes ,if you can't see that
from what you have seen already,
or was that a polite way of saying
so.

King David ,
Cajones!no son tantos buenos,
pero,sin embargo gracias.

Adios amibas

LK(not the only lord in town)

p.s. if you mail me, you will
run a serious risk of
me replying http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Shahed]

Man Diz Community is even crzier than I thought !!!

Kray u must be totally krazy coz what u got on that web site looks totally cool !!!

Can you please add a Janissary unit:

Janissary Musketeer

This is to follow the historical guidelines wher Janissaries were among the first to use gunpowder weapons. They still carried sords for melee and wielded them fircely once engaged in hand to hand combat.

Consider this a medium Janissary unit with gunpowder range capacity and the melee of an Elite troop, like the Knights.

Awesome work man !

[YunDog]

Knights with Flails - like mounted bishops or something all in red or purple with those pointy armored helms

foot nights with large 2 handed bastard swords - small unit size

flaming arrows archers

battering rams

barbarians with furs and animal skins and spiked clubs

catapults that fire animal and human carcasses and heads

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by YunDog:
Knights with Flails - like mounted bishops or something all in red or purple with those pointy armored helms

foot nights with large 2 handed bastard swords - small unit size

flaming arrows archers

battering rams

barbarians with furs and animal skins and spiked clubs

catapults that fire animal and human carcasses and heads

[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------
OK I'v learned a lot of Australian
from Baroccas readmes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
so lets see if I'v got
this right.
You want

A Knight formaly none as Prince.

A large two handed bastard.

F*%#ing arrows.

A dangerous sheep.

A rugby team wearing expencive coats
in a Perth night spot.

And the All Blacks aswell http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
---------------------------------------------

Spiky clubs is all you can have
for the moment http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

I'd like to give you all these
things, but if you got nothing to
do read the rest of the thread and you'll
see why.It's not personal it's just
unit animation is not on the agenda at the moment, well not for release anyway.
regards,
LK

[YunDog]

LOL

youll be a citizen soon - do you love beer more than life itself and only talk about sport and war, in that order

ya I was having a read, but no harm in dreaming
keep up the grouse clobba

onya
Yun

[ick_of_pick]

fenir, did you accually make those byzantine units, or is it just your idea. if you accually made them, id like to get my hands on em!

[Mithrandir]

I'd like to see F16'f, Apaches & u noats in your patch... if that cant be done make me some Elephaunts! Gah! Work now slave! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Mithrandir:
I'd like to see F16'f, Apaches & u noats in your patch... if that cant be done make me some Elephaunts! Gah! Work now slave! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.[/QUOTE]

Mith,

If you can image all the requirements for Apache Helo's - we can make them visually correct (hovering, flying etc http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

One problem. They either shoot arrows instead of Sidewinders or your archers units have some pretty heavy capabilities!

[fenir]

ick_of_pick,

They where/are my pet project at present. I have done all the file editing, but am trying to do the actual lbm & Bif files. SO, at present, no they aren't finished.
I posted them here for the "Lords" so if they got the Bif and lbm files done, I would up load the lot to the .org DL list, (barrocca's grace approving of course).

But if the "Lords can do the bif and lbm files, and pass them over to me, I will have the files up in 24hours, Testing allowing.

PS: I will let you know asap when they are finished http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I am also trying to do the lbm and bif, so I can practise. But it is very slow going. (newbie at this part).

But hopefully it won't be to long.

I will then do the Egyptians, as they are missing a few units.

The units.
They are actually based on real Byzantine units that existed. Both prof. and Aux.
I have also taken into account the differences in western mail/plate and the eastern mail and Lamellar amour strenghts, (lamellar being strong and lighter and not used by the west until the 20th century tanks). Not to mention the training etc...
But most of the units are made up from Byzantine narrations and descriptions.

So i will continue this over into Egyptians as well. Then maybe some others. All will be as accurate as possible.

Lord Krazy
Yeah, Don't forget those "All Blacks".

*starts singing.... Bledisloe Cup... come home.....to the place....where you belong.... for 57 years.... you know where you belong...... western pacific......New Zealand....come on home....*

hehehehe

PSS: Now give us back our World cup. :P~


fenir

[Lord Krazy]

I kinda like aussi rules myself
although I think they should call
lack of rules http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It's galic football played
with a rugby ball on a cricket
field.Now that's what I call
creative http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

When you have tested your units
send them to me and then I can just
paste them in, the way you want
them.
As regards to icons we have x amount
done but not sure which ones are best
for what yet.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[fenir]

Thanks Lord Krazy, I should have them finished today.

I will Email them to you in a few hours time.

The Bif's and Lbm's I am still learning how to use psp7 so they won't be anytime soonish http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Hence asking the "Lords" of graphics to meet the task :P~

fenir

[ick_of_pick]

thanx, heres my e-mail if its of any use..
rickeshoo@hotmail.com

if lamellar is stronger, then shouldnt klivs have armour 10 or something?

[Lord Krazy]

OK seen as loads of stuff didn't make it over from the
last board I'm going to write it all out again,
no chance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'll be posting 10 units later on today.
These will be a sample of whats to come.

RoyalFootKnights for each period
Basquespearmen,
Templar,Teutonic and Santiago Foot Knights
IrishFootKnights,
CumanMercenaryCavalry,(Left overs from CA)
GoldenHoardAuxillaryCavalry("")


I'll aim to post about 50 units by the end of the week.
This is a projection not a promise http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
these units will also be betas for testing.

Another thing, I do NOT kwno for a fact, how many units this game can take.All I know is,I only encountered problems
at 100+ I never verified what that problem was.
For all I know the units might go all the way down to
last row of the work sheet.
So if anyone has a day or two to spare.
C ya

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Latro]

Hooray, I can finally post here.
I posted this earlier, in the entrance hall.
In case nobody goes there, I'd like to post it again here, in the appropriate thread.

There seems to be a lot of confusion on the Byzantines.
Rosacrux has ammended some of it already but I've wanted to post this for a long time, so here goes:

I'm sorry to say that I was a bit dissapointed with the Byzantine units in MTW. They are all wrong. Mainly the name giving is confused.
I realised how much work is involved with modding the units.
Simply renaming existing units will save a lot of work. Hope it's not too late already LK. There would also be saving of slots for more units.

First off the kataphraktoi in the game should be called Klibanophoroi. In Roman times Cataphracts (or Cataphractarii) were very heavily armoured cavalry on completely barded horses. Clibanarii were mounted on horses that had only frontal barding and they could be equipped with bows.
Somewhere along the line these terms got switched around.
In Byzantine times kataphraktoi would be your regular heavy cavalry.
Thus, the unit called 'Byzantine Cavalry' in the game, should be called 'Kataphraktoi'.

The Pronoia Allagion cavalry would also be Kataphractoi. Pronoiai were the equivalent of european knights. In the sense that they were soldiers given land in return for serivce in the army.
Why the devellopers tagged the Allagion bit to Pronoia, I don't get. Allagion is simply a unit name, like 'battalion' or 'regiment'.
Arguably these people might be able to afford better equipment, so they might warrant a distinct unit that is better armoured than your normal cavalry.

A Byzantine infantry allagion could consist of more than one troop type.
It would have normal heavy infantry, called skutatoi, after the Roman word for shield, scutum. They carried a long spear and the kite shield. Front ranks would be very heavily armoured.
They would have an integral number of archers, possibly also armoured.
Next to the heavy infantry would be light infantry, or psiloi. These would be light archers, slingers and javelineers.
One source also mentions another small group of heavies that would be part of the allagion. They are supposed to be armed with a heavy throwing spear, called a menaulion. Thus they were called menaulatoi

So, to conclude the renaming, the 'Byzantine Infantry' should be renamed 'Skutatoi' and the 'trebizond archers' should be 'Psiloi Archers'.


Editing units:
The 'new' Kataphractoi units should be given spears and shields, plus heavier armour. The Pronoiai should also be given bows and even heavier armour (class 8 or 9?).
Dunno if 10 is possible but lamellar is indeed quite effective. There is an account of a cavalry man unhorsed by a 'Frankish' knight's lance and simply getting back on his horse, twice.

The Skutatoi should have a spear(kontos or a smaller version, the kontarion) and, if you want to emulate the super-heavy front ranks, you could also increase their armour (currently 3). But you would have to make them slower as well, let's remain fair.
All bows should be MTLG instead of SBOW. The SBOW is just a simple short or self bow, a stick with a string.
The Byzantines and eastern countries used the composite bow. This was composed of wood, bone, horn and sinew and was much more powerful. If you want you can edit the MTLG bow in projectiels.txt to give it slightly more range and armour penetration.

BTW, I don't think the 'Psiloi Archers' should have such a bite as the current Trebizond Archers have. Yes, they had a small shield and a side arm but their axe is only a small hand axe. They would still be mainly light infantry and wouldn't stand up to anything but other light infantry.


New units that could be created would be the regular archers and psiloi javelineers. Creating psiloi slingers would involve adding a new projectile type and new animation. Is that being done atm?
Slings would be effective against medium armour. Mail won't protect you against the impact of a lead slingshot bullet, your arm would still break. Even with a helmet on, you would still be concussed, if it hit you on the head.

I think staffslings were also mentioned by someone, those would be nice. Staffslings could hurl naphta containers.
Another new projectile could be the martiobarbulus, a heavy dart. It was carried by the Late Roman and early Byzantine infantry, at least and maybe later.

Oh, yes. Light Cavalry.
The Byzantines used huge numbers of auxiliaries: Patzinaks, Alans, Cumans, Turks etc etc. The generic 'Horse Archer' in the game would cover them all. So no need for new units there, really. Adding more distinct horse archers only makes it more difficult to retrain and merge the units.

There is, however, an actual Byzantine Light Cavalry type.
The Trapezitoi. They were unarmoured but carried a largish shield (against all them pesky arrows) a lance and javelins. They were highly skilled riders, our word trapeze artist stems from these guys. Ideal pursuit cavalry to increase the number of kills after the enemy general runs for his women.
I'm working on an add-on for them now.

OK, hope this has been a bit useful.
At least I've been able to post some of what I've been wanting to write.

[Rosacrux]

I do disagree with a couple of the points made (as for instance about the Trebizond archers, as the bulk of the regular Byzantine archers originated from Trebizond, with a tradition similar to the Welsh, so to say and as for the Kataphraktoi vs Klivanarioi/klivanophorioi thing there more opinions than scholars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) but I do agree on most points made.

But... I don't see you mention the Hosarioi, the light border-guards cavalry Byzantium deployed in the Balkan provinces and especially in Greece and Serbia in different time periods. The lack of a light non-bow cavalry unit for the Byzantines in this game is quite obvious so those would fill the gap.

Generally though I am pleased to find another MTW gamer with a vast interest in Byzantine history and warfare. At least, a game that lets us enact the great Eastern Roman Empire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Latro]

Grtz,
Yeah, doing a quick scan of my books on the subject, I couldn't find a mention of the hosarioi. So I decided not to mention them.
Can't write about what I don't know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But from your description they resemble the trapezitoi, being armed with javelins. Maybe they are the same? Though I got the impression that trapezitoi were regulars.

Btw, speaking of javelins. I think that infantry javelins would have less armour penetration than a javelin thrown with the added momentum of a charging horse. But that might just be too much detail, also because it wouldn't always be thrown in the direction of the gallop.

And I agree with you, Byzantines should actually be called Eastern Romans. They called themselves Romans anyway.

[Rosacrux]

No, the Hosarioi (by the word "hosia" which is Greek for "ambush" - see where this gets us?) are a later evolution (actually another incarnation of the famous Akrites, but without the land-owning privileges of those) being more an irregular police-force than a regular army unit. But they did took part in most campaigns after 1000 AD in reconaissance/scouting and pursuing duties and that's why I see them fit in the timeframe of the game.

And, yes, "Byzantine" is just a term invented (by a 17th century French scholar, I think) to differiantate the distinct culture of the eastern (mostly Greek) Roman Empire from the previous (Latin) Roman Empire. They called themselves "Romaioi" which is Greek for "Romans".

[Lord Krazy]

Ok guys enough on the greek thing
i just wanted to know more or less what they looked like
and what weapon and stats, the person that suggested them,
wanted.
So the ones Rosacrux picked will be done that way
(to the best of our abilities)and likewise for the rest.

The first thing I have to do is redo the prod11
for all these units this will be done on a generic basis at first.Then I will add amendments to individualise them.
This process has only been done to some of my units so far.
The greeks will be done next, so seen as your all hot
a bothered about them right now it seems a good time to get
them done.As you may know fenir is interested in this area so he will have a big say in this as he is making
these units also.

I will not be drawn into a historical debate on this issue
as it's not practical at the moment.
The spelling of a unit is personal choice
I will not ammend it for historical reasons
at the moment.No point having the right name for a unit that does not work properly.
So if Rosacrux said:



Quote[/b] ]- Klivanarioi(or Klivanophoroi): Heavy cavalry, the "tank" of the Byzantine army (something like the lancers). Great charge bonus, relatively slow (not lika Kataphractoi though) and all-armoured.


- Hosarioi: Light cavalry, armed with bows or javelins and lances. Good skirmishers and in pursuit, no armour. Region dependant (they came from Greece and Serbia). Maybe the hungarians should have those too (that's where they borrowed the term "hussar" from, anyway).


- Skutatoi: Light infantry, fast and armed with spear and shield, light armoured.


- Psiloi: "Psiloi" is a generic term to define the auxiliary troops that had no armor at all and acted as a supplement to the professional or regular army. Of those, you could make a decent Javelin unit for the Byzantines (they lack one). No armor, no shield, fast, low morale. armed with javelins and little axes and/or swords.



Then that is what I am going to do.

At the moment my head is like one of those prod
files opened in word "all over the place"
so less of the nit picking for now.

Tell me where I can blag some images of these guys
on the net if pos.

btw Latro you don't have to be a member of anything to mail
me.My address is in my profile.I recieve mail from
non members of this forum and I welcome it.
So no excuse buddy;)
The fact I hardly never read the other forums
and I mean forums I don't just mean
the enterance hall is I don't have the time.
When I have time I do but not now.
So if anyone else want's to make a point to me
and can not poet here mail me.
I promise I will at least read it
and if the weather allows I will even reply
god fobid;)

Later
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Archers Tomorrow
thats not a quote it will be an upload http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Latro]

OK. here are some quick links for pics.

Here (http://www.anit.es/imagomundi/Wargames/wargameselricon_klibanion.htm) are two plates from the Osprey Men-at-Arms series.

This site (http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~tdawson/levantia/index.html)has some modern reconstructions of Byzantine equipment.

You might also want to have a look at DBAOL army lists (http://www.dbaol.com/armies.htm)

[Latro]

another nice site (http://es.geocities.com/mundo_medieval/bizancio/ejercitos.html), in spanish though.

[Lord Krazy]

Thanks Larto ,that is very productive.
Btw Spanish is a language I speak so
thats not a problema http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'v turned all the units in
the game into Byzantians
I just need a Hundered odd
Byzantian names for them
and you could have
Byzantian MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'll release the archers later
about 10 or so
and the Byzantians at the weekend
I hope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
regards'
LK

[fenir]

Kataphraktoi v. Klibanophoroi As far as I am aware this debate is still on going in the History of Byzantine warfare http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
But there is sufficient evidence to suggest that it is Kataphraktoi that was adpoted by the Romans (west) from the Hellenics. A development process of the more famous Thessealyian cavalry.

Kataphraktoi , As describe by the Byzantines themselves, was orginally four layers of chain mail, later with chain mail and lamellar armour. And finally with added plate armour.
They where perhaps, and by all accounts, the KingTiger of the battlefield. There are many descriptions of the Kataphrataktoi units wiping out Frankish Knights without loss to themselves. circa 1101 first crusade & Normans 1085-1094AD.

It is however without a doubt, they where far superior to the western Knight, espeically in the early period and most research in the last 20 years tends to be absolute in these terms. They where trained, and equiped to some of the highest levels, by any standard of their times.
Their honour was also above question as usually the Katapharaktoi where from Noble families. Hellenic term, good family.
It actually took the West well over 100 years to get even close to the levels of Byzantine arms and armour.

Klibanophoroi
y all accounts the Klibanophoroi was a melee speicalist. They where heavy armoured (horse included) horse archers, the Turkish where so impressed they copied them. Sipahi of the Porte.

Pronoia Allagion
However the Pronoia Allagion differ from the Katapharaktoi by the fact that the Pronoia where in fact not nobles, but usually ex- soliders, or settled troops for border duties or immediate duty with policing control in the provinces.
Where as the Katapharaktoi where usually of "Noble" or "Good Family". Donoting that they where of social or military importance. Henced based in the Capital. Pronoia Allagion could also be of a minor nobility,

Honsarioi ... Prokoursatores
Medium Cavalry. Usually settled troops or peoples in border provinces, tasked with a farming and guard duty type activity.


Pronoia Allagion,
Allagion is simply a unit name, like 'battalion' or 'regiment'. Yes that is true, but for many people they have no idea of Hellenic terms and ideas, so it is more there as an identification of the unit Pronoia I suspect.

Think of it as this.
Allagion = Legion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (Al - Lagion) or A legion roughly.

Therefore a legion of Pronoia. Hope that helps.

It goes along the same lines of the Byzantines and how they refer to their own units as Hoplites. Therefore donoting that they where in fact Sarrisa type armed or Javelin armed, with a shield and sword.
They also quite often used the term phalanx as a replace for legion or Allagion.
Such as a Phalanx of Hoplite. Or a Allagion of Hoplite.

A Byzantine infantry allagion could consist of more than one troop type.
Yes, Byzantines used a combined arms strategy as a matter of basic teachings in military warfare, this means both tactics and personal.
The standard infantryman was also still equiped with two javelins at times.

Psiloi any light infantry of usually a missile varity. Usually area depended naming
Skutatoi, usually a polearmed Infantryman, along a hoplite tradition not always heavy.
Menaulatoi usually a medium Infantryman with a Javelin or two. But it depends on a lot of other influences.
Hoplite usually a heavy infantryman sometimes polearmed.

In my Defense http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Ultimately, I have used generic terms and standard ideas of Hellenic troop types known to many people, mainly because they have know idea of how complex the Byzantine military machine was compared to the West or the East. And it is difficult for a game to reproduce.

My only concern is that the Byzantine units are not given the due that is owed them.
They where truely fantastic units, far in advanced of tactics and training than the East or West. Included would be the armour and arms, which where also far superior to both east or West.


On a side note, my Katapharaktoi in my game have up stats to represent their more historical position.

Charge 10...Simply put, they where huge, they where armoured, stopping them would be impossible short of using a Bulldozer.
Moral 8 they where nobles, just not stupid like Latins.
Melee 6 They where better than Knights in a Melee so why not.
Defence 7 , should be good.
Amour 8 Their descriptions alone warrant this.

And they are now faster than a Camel. As there are to many descriptions of them over running camels in a chase.

Cost? 1250 Florins
Support? 155 Florins.


fenir

Acknowledgements.
Praecepta Militaria 965AD by Nikephoros Phokas
Eric McGeer, Sowing the Dragon's Teeth, Washington 1995 Translation.
Tim Dawson, 'Suntagma Hoplôn: the equipment of regular Byzantine troops, c. 950 to c. 1204'
David Nicolle (ed.) A Companion to Medieval Arms and Armour, Boydell and Brewer, London

[Vlad The Impaler]

so , from where i can download this units?

btw Lord Krazy if u need references about wallachian troups e-mail me ;my adress is in my profile

[Caledfwlch]

Lord Krazy, are you only adding historical units, or will you be including some hypothetical units as well.
I only ask 'cos my Wessex Heavy Cavalry might be of some use.

[Lord Krazy]

Vlad The Impaler,
with regard to the download I'm
not sure where it is.
Hey I just work here;)


It was uploaded as a test_upload
I'll be posting anoter one soon
which will about 30 units.

I'll be in touch thanks:)


Caledfwlch,
Only criteria is that it's doable
seen as you have done them
already, I would say that was very
doable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
So please send them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK

[Caledfwlch]

Fair enough LK, I'll just finish tweaking the stats etc & touch up the spear graphics, then I'll send it to you.
Could do with some advice on making the unit information panel picture though, mine seems to appear in the game with some black dots scattered on it, can't see what I'm doing wrong. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (Caledfwlch @ Nov. 14 2002,15:25)]Fair enough LK, I'll just finish tweaking the stats etc & touch up the spear graphics, then I'll send it to you.
Could do with some advice on making the unit information panel picture though, mine seems to appear in the game with some black dots scattered on it, can't see what I'm doing wrong. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
The Info_pic that you are talking about
is displayed larger in the panel than it's
actual size.This is why you may see dots in game
that you don't see at actual size.
This could be your problem.
Without seeing the bif I can't
say for sure what you problem is.
I would think it has to do with
the pixels that were not removed
from original inmage you imported.
I'll have a look when you send.

LK:D

[Lord Krazy]

27 new units for testing are available
at http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWbeta/

The zip is called
TEST_TheLords_27units_mtw1.1.zip


DO NOT DOWNLOAD the OTHER Lords test units on that link

The units are:

TeutonicFootKinghts

TemplarFootKnights

SantiagoFootKnights

RoyalFootKnights

HighRoyalFootKnights

LateRoyalFootKnights

IrishFootKnights

CumanMercenaryCavalry

GoldenHordeAuxillaryCavalry

BasqueSpearmen

Mounted Musket

Mounted Carbine

Immortals

Welsh Spearmen

HouscarlSpearmen

SaxonFyrdmen

Vikingbondi

ScotishArcher

SicilianMercenary

Scandinavianarcher

FeudalBows

CumanArchars

AnatolianHighlanders

NormanArcher

Moorishcrossbows

GeoneseCrossbows


The Royal and Religious Knights have been changed also, to dismount to the
Royal and Religious Foot Knight units above

These units are not fully finished
they are just a sample.

If you have any problems please mail me.
ASAP
I need feed back on this guys
or else I'm kinda working
in the dark as I can't
possibley test all the perameters
for this on my own.
So if I don't get at least
10 mails saying
it's ok or you found a bug
and you know what it is,or it crashes
when I do xyz.
Then your not getting the next
lot till I do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thank you very much, in a forcefull sort of way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Btw I now some of them show up for all factions,
thats so you can use them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Caledfwlch]

LK, do you think it might be something to do with the 366x448 scroll banner.BIF that the infopic gets superimposed over. The infopic looks clear enough when viewed in PSP7, but in game the dots appear.
Also noticed that some of the infopics in the TEST_TheLords_27units_mtw1.1 mod have the same thing, i'll send you a copy of my infopic so you can see.

Like the new units btw.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Cal,
Yes this is because you did not clear the background
completley before or after you transfered the image.

When you clear a background it may have more
than one layer so select colour range
a few times on both images before you transfer
and after to see the effects.
It's a PSP7 rtfm problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It also depends on what you what you want to do.
Some of the dots on the info_pics are for a desired effect
the others because we just don't care that much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Mail me if you have any more problems with this area
I'll have a look at your stuff in the meantime.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Caledfwlch]

Cheers LK,
I'll e-mail the Wessex Heavy Cav unit to you right now, & I'll send the rest on when I'm happy with them.

[Stefan the Berserker]

LK, I hope that with the Immortals is somekind of new Highlander Unit Making an undefeatable Unit is unfair

[Lord Krazy]

Cal,
don't see any problem with your
stuff,only your ego http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif just make more
and shut up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Stef,
Immortals is just a name not a description.

[Caledfwlch]

Heh heh, fair enough LK, I'll get cracking on 'em. Any tips on unit balancing (stats) btw, don't want to make them too powerful or too weak. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Lord Krazy]

For starters copy one you want it to be like
and just change the odd stat 1 or 2 points.
Sort of work it from there.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

posted fix for 27unitpack plus one more unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Posted 35 units this time.
Hope it has less bugs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
This one has 7 Byzantine units
one mor Byzantine to come
and thats it for byzantians for the moment.
I think 10% is generous enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

50 units have been posted now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[fenir]

hmmmmmm i can't see the downloads you uploaded LK.

has barocca not put them up yet?

fenir

[Latro]

Here (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWbeta/) they are. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Thanks latro,

all this stuff will be put on the test download,
so look for it there unless I state otherwise.
Get the latest versions they should be less buggy.
Thanks,

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[fenir]

Thanks Latro,

I couldn't find it, must be going blind.


LK
Will do

fenir