View Full Version : Whats happened to this forum?
Jasper The Builder
02-27-2010, 16:29
When I created my account back in 2007 this forum was the best TW Forum around, it had thousands of active members and the board was actually nice to view. Now it's a ghost town and the board is sorry but horrible.
What happened then?
Hello Jasper The Builder,
The software was updated recently and none of the old parts can be reused or easily copied over. Then this vanilla install has its issues to solve. That takes time.
Megas Methuselah
02-27-2010, 20:01
I was hoping ETW and NTW would bring in a much larger amount of new guys than it did.
Alexander the Pretty Good
02-27-2010, 21:09
CA stopped making good games and they won't support their old ones.
Megas Methuselah
03-01-2010, 03:38
Yes.
a completely inoffensive name
03-03-2010, 06:10
I arrived
Well you left quite a mess.
Prussian to the Iron
03-04-2010, 02:21
CA stopped making good games and they won't support their old ones.
that has notihng to do with the forum....
In all honesty, many of those members you described came over as joint .org and TWCenter members. A huge part of them couldn't keep up with the maturity of the .org, while I changed and adapted to the .org and left TWCenter.
In short, most of the TWCenter people couldnt handle the .org.
Captain Blackadder
03-04-2010, 03:10
Quite frankly that is insulting to the members of the twc of which I am one. I have seen just as much immaturity and idiocy in the backroom as in the pit. It is easy to avoid the fools in twc just ignore threads about eastern europe and you are good.
When I created my account back in 2007 this forum was the best TW Forum around, it had thousands of active members and the board was actually nice to view. Now it's a ghost town and the board is sorry but horrible.
What happened then?
i noticed the same thing, i joined the org and twc centre at roughly the same time in 2006. I used to mainly use the org becasue of EB, but the last 6 months i have started spending more time on the tw centre initially due to Broken Crescent. Whilst i am more of a lurker and not really a 'social' user of either forum, i get the impression that twc is much busier than the the org currently - Has this always been the case?
Beefy187
03-04-2010, 03:45
In regards to TW related things, I suppose that is the case. They have what? 10 times more members then us?
Org regulars hangs around not only for TW but also for Taverns, Social groups and most of all. Close Org community and our beloved over lord Tosa.
I mean no disrespect to TWC as they are big successful forum and I visit there sometimes, but Org is where I started and it is where I spend most of my time.
Alexander the Pretty Good
03-04-2010, 06:59
that has notihng to do with the forum....
You don't think the quality of Total War games might affect participation on a Total War forum?
The Org has always has always been more a community of people who happen to have played a TW game at some time than really dedicated to just TW games, but I think you can't just disregard that right away. Few people post in the ETW/NTW forums because most of the people here aren't excited about the games.
CountArach
03-04-2010, 10:51
You don't think the quality of Total War games might affect participation on a Total War forum?
The Org has always has always been more a community of people who happen to have played a TW game at some time than really dedicated to just TW games, but I think you can't just disregard that right away. Few people post in the ETW/NTW forums because most of the people here aren't excited about the games.
This is spot-on my view.
The Wizard
03-04-2010, 14:56
This forum doesn't look that empty to me... but that may just be because I don't visit the game forums anymore.
Arthur, king of the Britons
03-04-2010, 16:36
TWC is too crowded anyway.
Me like teh org more.
Prussian to the Iron
03-05-2010, 00:31
Quite frankly that is insulting to the members of the twc of which I am one. I have seen just as much immaturity and idiocy in the backroom as in the pit. It is easy to avoid the fools in twc just ignore threads about eastern europe and you are good.
i didnt mean it to be, but if you look at most users at TWCenter, you will notice what I have described: immaturity. It isn't an insult to many users there, but you have to admit that many are immature children (many are actually children/tweens).\
I don't wish to turn this into a TWC bash thread, but you must admit what is true.
tibilicus
03-05-2010, 00:43
Sometimes I forget this is actually a total war forum. I played Empire but that will most likely be my last total war game. I used to be active within the MP community but slipped out of that to. I still stick around here though because I like the people and I like the discussion. It's still the only forum I pretty much check every day. Sure, it's less busy than its used to be but maybe that gives it a more, errrr, homely feel?
i didnt mean it to be, but if you look at most users at TWCenter, you will notice what I have described: immaturity. It isn't an insult to many users there, but you have to admit that many are immature children (many are actually children/tweens).\
I don't wish to turn this into a TWC bash thread, but you must admit what is true.
Prussian I have just noticed your join date- how on earth did you manage 2500 posts in a year!
pevergreen
03-05-2010, 02:12
Its amazing how many situations warrant external consulting for teenagers these days. Prussian is simply doing what we all should have done as teenagers: Ask those who have been through it for advice on anything new.
Prussian I have just noticed your join date- how on earth did you manage 2500 posts in a year!
He needs advice for all the laydees he pursues.
al Roumi
03-05-2010, 15:46
You don't think the quality of Total War games might affect participation on a Total War forum?
The Org has always has always been more a community of people who happen to have played a TW game at some time than really dedicated to just TW games, but I think you can't just disregard that right away. Few people post in the ETW/NTW forums because most of the people here aren't excited about the games.
I would hazard a guess that there are more people here who activley play Paradox games than CA ones... Funny really.
Ibn-Khaldun
03-05-2010, 19:41
Sometimes I forget this is actually a total war forum. I played Empire but that will most likely be my last total war game. I used to be active within the MP community but slipped out of that to. I still stick around here though because I like the people and I like the discussion. It's still the only forum I pretty much check every day. Sure, it's less busy than its used to be but maybe that gives it a more, errrr, homely feel?
This is exactly why I have hard time leaving this place. I just like Org's "homely feel" as you put it.
Megas Methuselah
03-05-2010, 21:38
He needs advice for all the laydees he stalks.
Fix'd. :clown:
Centurion1
03-05-2010, 23:18
Quite frankly that is insulting to the members of the twc of which I am one. I have seen just as much immaturity and idiocy in the backroom as in the pit. It is easy to avoid the fools in twc just ignore threads about eastern europe and you are good.
what about eastern europe......
i checked out the twc once it looked scary and those damn reputation points annoy me.
2500 post i had like 12 posts until i realized the tavern existed last year.
i like the .org because i know almost everyone and i can recognize most people as soon as i see their avatar.
its nicer and more polite without being juvenile.
but yeah the homey feel is whats best.
even though i have to deal with canucks like megas.
tibilicus
03-06-2010, 00:52
Oh another thing, all the good mods like barocca, BKS, and Beirut left.
Now we have a bunch of ostralians running the show! Lame!
Fix'd. :clown:
I nearly put that :yes:
Prussian I have just noticed your join date- how on earth did you manage 2500 posts in a year!
Good thing you never saw my join date or post count...
Beefy187
03-06-2010, 02:05
Oh my Beskar. You post more then Pizza?:dizzy2:
pevergreen
03-06-2010, 02:07
Now we have a bunch of ostralians running the show! Lame!
Oh no, 3 Australian moderators...two of which are Backroom.
How many american moderators? :tongue:
tibilicus
03-06-2010, 03:17
Oh no, 3 Australian moderators...two of which are Backroom.
How many american moderators? :tongue:
You know I love you ostralians really. Other than when you cheat in the cricket, which you do often seeming there is no other explanation as to why we would lose..
CountArach
03-06-2010, 08:19
Oh another thing, all the good mods like barocca, BKS, and Beirut left.
Now we have a bunch of ostralians running the show! Lame!
*Shakes fist, but can't think of anything witty to say*
Oh no, 3 Australian moderators...two of which are Backroom.
I'm the only Backroom moderator from 'straya
Oh another thing, all the good mods like barocca, BKS, and Beirut left.
Now we have a bunch of ostralians running the show! Lame!
You know I love you ostralians really. Other than when you cheat in the cricket, which you do often seeming there is no other explanation as to why we would lose..
The performance of a countries cricket team should be a criterion for a person to be moderator at this site?
pevergreen
03-06-2010, 11:15
The performance of a countries cricket team should be a criterion for a person to be moderator at this site?
Looks like you gotta get some more Aussies then Tosa. :laugh4:
@ CA: My bad, has Pape gone?
tibilicus
03-06-2010, 13:51
The performance of a countries cricket team should be a criterion for a person to be moderator at this site?
Always Tosa, ALWAYS.
CountArach
03-06-2010, 23:59
The performance of a countries cricket team should be a criterion for a person to be moderator at this site?
:laugh4: Oh that has to be a new rule.
@ CA: My bad, has Pape gone?
Gone from the BR, yes.
Always Tosa, ALWAYS.
Look like you won't be a mod any time soon :wink:
Centurion1
03-07-2010, 04:57
i just joined the twc for mafia and i want to say the gameroom is far superior here. it is a ghost town there. i cant believe how empty i found one game to join.
The org is being slowly but surely detached from its relation to tw, especially past Empire. I think that as far as the org was concerned Empire was make or brake; and it seems that its brake after all. The other reason is that the (strong) org demographic revolving around MTW/STW will fade to nothingness as the games are less and less compatible with newer systems and ca won't fix them by all accounts.
Part of the reason is the original .org demographic itself; the org started out as the tw forum that had the most strong presence from the mp community during the stw/mtw days; and back then the mp community and the mp game were by all accounts very enjoyable and attracted many dedicated gamers that knew lots about gaming and games and pcs and played really well. In terms of SP tw was also addressed to less mainstream and more dedicated gamers - the devs were puting an effort in terms of historical plausibility, strategic and tactical depth and challenge, aesthetics and atmosphere.
With RTW the demographic of tw changed and the org attracted too quite a following both from the SP and the new mp communities, as well as a significant part of the modding community (EB one of the most significant that makes up for a very substantial of org daily traffic today). Many people that joined the org from that era are still around to this day. M2TW continued the same trend, although by that time it eventually became abundantly clear that the TWC had become the hub for modding and for SPers.
Possible reasons for this shift may be the more SP newby friendly atmosphere of the twc, that lacked strong criticism from people from the STW/MTW era with whom the new games did not sit well, the reputation and personalised avatars and the general more diy and more loose tone of conversation. Clearly those matched the most generally younger audience of RTW/M2TW too.
All in all, the org is changing - the most frequented places are the tavern, the arena and of course the gameroom (no idea about the backroom, as i'm not interested), and the RTW/M2 modding sections probably due to EB and EB2. The main tw forums lack tw related leadership (moderators or leading members) that would attract others' attention or are simply suffering because ca left the tw games to their fate or both. For empire and ntw the stats of threads/topics in the main forums speak for themselves, although March last year (at ETW launch) there were hundreds of viewings. The really poor state of the game at release and the unfortunate lack of ETW mods in the org hit those parts of the forum hard. Not that anyone is to blame for this - had Empire been as good as it was promised many old hands would have spread the word and then more and more, but unfortunately it was the exact opposite: old hands spread rightly the word that the game wasn't really worth it. On top of this all, the ETW section lacked leadership; Martok rarely was seen posting about the game past two first months, Mr Beane is absent since last year March and Nelson is also not appearing in the forum as a participant. Only Fisherking keeps teh forum slowly going.
A side effect of this situation is that many of the org awards need simplifying - voting shows that there is simply not enough interest for so many award categories and so many nominees. Also moderators often take awards for years because people vote for them for their general contribution and even "status" instead of their contribution in the year that voting is being carried for.
Although of course the org is not responsible for the overly commercial direction tw took - it seems at this stage to be coming off from present tw. However from M2 and especially for RTW/MTW/STW, the org has some of the most knowledgeable members about the game with no equals to other online communities.
All in all i think that the newer sections lack a bit care and foresight; the ETW/NTW section needs people to moderate that play/mod the game and dont just moderate invisibly. I also reckon as i wrote in a number of posts last year that puting Andres to moderate the reboudt as if it was the gameroom was a questionable move that hurt the mp traffic for the org at the very launch of a new tw game (which is a crucial time, since many return, make new accounts etc). Tomisama was an excellent choice but even a good leader needs members to lead somewhere, unfortunately there were none left there. Even people like Swoosh So that were always posting harmlessly were given out infractions over misunderstandings. The results are clear to see - at least in the M2 forums there were some well informed - no matter how heated - debates. Yet not even this happens now - really sad.
The org is meybe having right now a decision to make - if forum leaders and admin think that its ok to become a homely forum related a bit more loosely to tw is fine, then the current status quo can remain. However if not, action need to be taken for the newer parts of the tw forums.
In any case this site has been instrumental for me, in a very difficult period of my life. I met people here that i became close friends - a thing that i had never imagined was possible. They taught me a lot regarding the tw games and also honored me with their company and friendship.
:bow:
Togakure
03-11-2010, 22:28
...
In any case this site has been instrumental for me, in a very difficult period of my life. I met people here that i became close friends - a thing that i had never imagined was possible. They taught me a lot regarding the tw games and also honored me with their company and friendship.
:bow:
This is what it's all about, imo. Ditto here. Congrats. Many believe that true friendships can't be made on the 'net. They're wrong.
I think that you are right - but then again its very wierd knowing people by chatting online or by playing games in mp. You sort of feel the personality of the other person in the way he plays, and this is an indescribable experience - you haven't even seen the person but you know it.
However the lack of the physical presence of the other is indeed daunting at times. Also daunting is the fact that the friendship revolves around a certain way of life ie of gaming/socialising online. Outside of that framework and assumption, online friendships have difficulty existing, and this for me became somewhat troublesome, i mean having to maintain the lifestyle in order to maintain the friendships.
I now wish that i could meet those that we came close online, and i somewhat feel that otherwise the friendship is like a bird with one wing. However i heard about an episode of people that had become very close online and decided to meet. In the meeting they said almost nothing for two hours, and then went home and... logged in and passionately said everything chatting :)
I find this cute and the essence of online friendship, yet i decided to make friends differently after a certain point - not because i was dissapointed from anyone, but because the gaming/socialising online lifestyle was something that i gradually moved on from.
:bow:
Beefy187
03-12-2010, 02:08
gollum. When are you going to join us in the game room :p
Never, i hope :)
:bow:
PS just a humorous way to state my own thesis on this, and by no means judgement to the many people that have lots of fun in the gameroom. All parts of the org are good, and all type of org members are good.
:bow:
Ibn-Khaldun
03-12-2010, 10:25
Gameroom is evil...
It's like giving the finger to the devil but he takes your entire arm. :no:
:clown:
CountArach
03-12-2010, 11:07
Gameroom is evil...
It's like giving finger to the devil but he takes your entire arm. :no:
I'd hate to hear your description of the Backroom then :wink:
He takes a very broad interpretation of the word "finger".
that is not "finger" but "the finger"
:bow:
Centurion1
03-15-2010, 01:58
its true for me the gameroom started with capo.............
i remember when having a hundred posts was like WHOAH!
pevergreen
03-15-2010, 15:19
On top of this all, the ETW section lacked leadership; Martok rarely was seen posting about the game past two first months, Mr Beane is absent since last year March and Nelson is also not appearing in the forum as a participant. Only Fisherking keeps teh forum slowly going.
A side effect of this situation is that many of the org awards need simplifying - voting shows that there is simply not enough interest for so many award categories and so many nominees. Also moderators often take awards for years because people vote for them for their general contribution and even "status" instead of their contribution in the year that voting is being carried for.
All in all i think that the newer sections lack a bit care and foresight; the ETW/NTW section needs people to moderate that play/mod the game and dont just moderate invisibly. I also reckon as i wrote in a number of posts last year that puting Andres to moderate the reboudt as if it was the gameroom was a questionable move that hurt the mp traffic for the org at the very launch of a new tw game (which is a crucial time, since many return, make new accounts etc). Tomisama was an excellent choice but even a good leader needs members to lead somewhere, unfortunately there were none left there.
On your first line.
I must concur. Martok seems to joining us less and less. It was only a matter of time I fear. Fisherking is doing a wonderful job, but there is only so much one man can do. I respect him for this and a few other reasons. The choice of moderators is an old and secretive ritual. Clouded in dark deeds and baby's blood. Quite a few people expected me to reign as SUPREME OVERLORD OF EMPIRE TOTAL WAR (imagine that said by Lurr, Ruler of planet Omicron Persei 8!) but Tosa/whoever else made the right choice. Martok and Nelson have done their job very well.
Hall of Fame: Yes. needs a massive reboot. Many, many less categories.
The MP mods have been explained by Tosa, and I agree. Singleplayer moderator, multiplayer assistant moderator. Avoids possible MP clan fueds.
edyzmedieval
03-15-2010, 23:31
Quite frankly that is insulting to the members of the twc of which I am one. I have seen just as much immaturity and idiocy in the backroom as in the pit. It is easy to avoid the fools in twc just ignore threads about eastern europe and you are good.
I find that insulting honestly. You're basically implying "Stay away from the threads, they're just a pile of junk" when we are actually discussing something.
But then again, ignorance is bliss.
Originally posted by Pevergreen
Singleplayer moderator, multiplayer assistant moderator. Avoids possible MP clan fueds.
...by having almost no traffic at all. Is there any mp forum that has no mp clan feuds? This is irrelevant argumentation and it is so because you are not a tw mper.
The result is just sad, whichever way you look at it, and as i told you then, repeating that line, was beside the point. Its all the more beside the point now that the redoubt is a true ghostown and the strategy/approach didn't work, just as i warned a year ago it wouldn't.
pevergreen
03-16-2010, 13:35
It may not have, but you can't blame Tosa's decision solely.
The entire MP community is down. Look at the MP awards this year...I had to nominate Megas...
pevergreen, please try to make it a habit when you talk about sensitive matters to choose your words carefully. I haven't even mentioned Tosa anywhere, let alone distribute responsibilities to him or anyone else. Also make it a habit to talk about things that you are directly responsible for and knowledgeable about. This is a matter for the staff to think - not for you and me to discuss in the open. If the staff wanted to discuss it in the open they would have certainly already done so, i doubt they need you to defend them and their choices.
The entire MP community is down. Look at the MP awards this year...I had to nominate Megas...
I think TW multiplayer participation at this site is down, but not elsewhere. MP participation may simply be "down" at this site or overall participation at this site may be down. Looking at the figures, I would go for the latter. It's a real pity because this is by far the best TW fansite.
gollum is right, there is no trouble because there is virtually no traffic. Is this the solution?
Yohei
pevergreen
03-16-2010, 14:53
I haven't even mentioned Tosa anywhere, let alone distribute responsibilities to him or anyone else.
I'm sorry, I got confused when you said:
and as i told you then, repeating that line, was beside the point. Its all the more beside the point now that the redoubt is a true ghostown and the strategy/approach didn't work, just as i warned a year ago it wouldn't.
I presumed you were referring to the quote in your post, which is what TosaInu gave. I did then, and I do now, agree with that.
I also agree that if the staff wanted it out in the open they would have done so. They did not, yet you in this post: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?126675-Whats-happened-to-this-forum&p=2447247&viewfull=1#post2447247 do bring it up.
Andres to moderate the reboudt as if it was the gameroom was a questionable move that hurt the mp traffic for the org at the very launch of a new tw game
You brought up the subject. You also gave your view on the moderators of the N:TW and E:TW sections.
Nothing wrong with that, but in my opinion (just stressing this is how I read it) you point out how they are lackluster. One could easily, again in my opinion, see that as an accusation. I don't believe anyone will, since you are not that type of member.
On defending them: I've been against them as much as I've agreed with them. *remembers the Elmo thread*
edit:
I think TW multiplayer participation at this site is down, but not elsewhere.
I wouldn't have any idea. I don't visit any other TW sites but this. I believe its down because I can go into the E:TW multiplayer option and see less games up than if I go into the R:TW lobby and only count vanilla games, no mods...
pevergreen, i drop the subject here, with you. You take the wrong turn and the wrong tone, probably due to lack of tact and lack of foresight, which are understandable in your age. All of your last post is argument for the sake of arguing. Next time you decide to argue with someone over something, make sure you are responsible for it, and knowledgeable about it. Otherwise your points have little if any relevance, i'm afraid.
On defending them: I've been against them as much as I've agreed with them.
On that occasion your opinions/conclusions were based solely on hearsay and on the thread content - that is to say that you were not in possession of the "full facts" as it were.
Yohei
pevergreen
03-16-2010, 16:06
On that occasion your opinions/conclusions were based solely on hearsay and on the thread content - that is to say that you were not in possession of the "full facts" as it were.
Yohei
What occasion. Its not like theres one on each side of the tallyboard.
gollum: I'm happy to drop it. :bow:
I greatly enjoyed this forum back in the day. I used to only ever go to TWC to download Rome Total Realism. This was the only place I went to from the very beginning. I remember reading Frogbeastegg's (sp) Shogun and MTW guides (I still use some of the tactics to this very day) and downloading all the best MTW mods here. After I got burnt out on M2TW: Kingdoms I didn't visit any TW forums until the pre-release hype for ETW started to kick into overdive, and then I came back to the Org only to discover tumble weeds.
I make most of my TW posts at TWC these but I wish I didn't have to. For a forum about video games, it's remarkable how few people actually want to talk about the gameplay in the game discussion sections. Honestly, 90% of the people there are complete morons.
The main camps are:
Deluded, irrational nationalists. They somehow manage to twist any thread, no matter how harmless the topic may seem, into a nationalistic pissing match. The political section of TWC is completely unbearable but it'd be fine if it just stayed there, but this crap seeps into every section of the board.
Flag Nazis a.k.a. Button Nazis. These are the guys who's only measuring stick for how good or poor the games are is how accurate the uniforms and flags are. Every missing or extra button on a jacket, every surplus strand of hair on a bearskin hat, every misplaced pixel on a flag are all unforgivable sacrileges that completely destroy their enjoyment of the game. A related camp are the armchair generals who nitpick the games looking for anything that isn't exactly like history (OMG, you mean regiments didn't actually include 160 people?), using quick skims of wikipedia in order to come off as highly knowledgeable military historians.
Pre-teens and teenagers. Everyone knows what these people do to forums, so I won't elaborate except to say I found it hilarious that so many 13-year-olds claimed to be ripped off, cheated, and insulted as a consumer (in the height of the outrage over ETW) when they all got their mommy to buy the game for them or pirated it.
:laugh4: Sorry if that's way off topic but I had to get that rant off my chest (that would obviously get deleted on TWC itself). It's just not that good, but its the fastest way to get my TW discussion fix today.
I really miss this place. Everyone knows what the Org is, so there's got to be a way to pump some life back into this place. Maybe all the old Org ex-pats at TWC can start a boycott? :idea2:
I think we must be careful not to become too pessimistic.
Apparently, the .Org audience and E:TW didn't match very well. It happens. Can't force one to love a game he doesn't like :shrug:
However, I'm still a proud member of this community. We have some real gems at this place, wonderful people who can debate about a wide range of subjects in an intelligent, civilised and mature way. There's a lot of potential at this place and pessimism will get us nowhere. In fact, exaggerated pessimism will eventually lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Indeed pessimism can be fatal, and it should be avoided.
However so can be inaction in the face of factual signs, inability or indifference to read factual signs and wrong choices as to how to react to challenges and the changing times - in certain instances. It is in light of these that some, in good will and as loving members of the org, speak.
:bow:
Indeed pessimism can be fatal, and it should be avoided.
However so can be inaction in the face of factual signs, inability or indifference to read factual signs and wrong choices as to how to react to challenges and the changing times - in certain instances. It is in light of these that some, in good will and as loving members of the org, speak.
:bow:
Ah dear gollum, but for all our disagreement about .Org policy concerning MP, I really appreciate your insights, contributions, opinions and concerns.
You're one of those gems I was talking about :bow:
Kadagar_AV
03-29-2010, 02:18
I also noticed a downfall of participants... I would say it is because of 2 things:
1. The TW serie just does not hold up... Shogun was great, medieval quite ok, rome a disaster untill patched... Then they still havent sorted problems with medieval 2 and dont even get me STARTED on empire...
Think medieval 2 was the killer, they launched a game with an inactive AI... Most people had 15min of fun surrounding opposite army with cannons before moving on to games that cared about their customers and had some beta-testers (note that major bugs are still not fixed).
2. That is why the forum has lost life cause of the GAME SERIES it represents. Another point is that the forum in itself has scared away a lot of members. Either members gets banned for being too immature, or they get banned for being to educated (actually arguing against mainstream). This, at least, is my oppinion.
This leaves a very small bunch of mediocre people, who others have no interest in and who are irrelevant to each other.
Aswell as some KICK ASS people in the very secluded sections, only, new members doesnt even know about them...
As it is now, we lose 2-3 for every 1 we get.
I certainly know were you are coming from Kadagar_AV, but if you notice carefully you'll see that RTW (and to a lesser extent M2) were very much embraced by the org: the Coloseum has nearly 100k posts as much as the Main hall and the Citadel, not to mention the very very frequented RTW modding sections.
They (RTW/M2) most certainly though as you say carried a trend that didn't sit well with the core org members and this was shown finally with ETW. The level of participation for ETW was phenomenal the first month of release; at times 100+ people were hanging around the Parliament. However as the release fever started to recess and the flaws of the game became more and more obvious particiaption droped to quite low levels for a new tw game.
:bow:
Other reasons that weren't mentioned about geting new members in the org, are that: a) its more difficult to achieve membership status than other forums b) there is a strong line from forum leaders/old members, and c) there is uniformity of appearance.
In fact b) and c) co-operate.
I think that for new/younger members, its far harder to remain interested in the org. Of course its true that these very same points constitute the reasons why for the org's greatest strengths, ie more civilised environment, more deep level of conversation and generally far more tidy behaviour and looks.
However, perhsp forum leaders and the admin, may want to think about putting some amount of water to their wine, as these reasons could potentially be driving away young/new members by appearing as a barrier.
At the same time, as new membership rates fall, forum leaders (moderators/regulars/senior members) become more and more dominant and the place less dynamic and even less accessible.
Perhaps its time to reconsider many of these points, assuming of course that the leaders/admin judge it good to change the status quo.
Kagemusha
03-30-2010, 20:56
One thing to consider is that about 1/5th of the active membership use the invisible mode. That makes the forum look more empty. But in the end my opinion is that its up to us members to try and make the forum more interesting and easy to enter by contributing positively to those areas where we frequent. Along the lines: "What can you do to Org, instead of what Org can do to you" .
Pannonian
03-30-2010, 23:12
Along the lines: "What can you do to Org" .
If you want to Org, just be patient and you will. Thinking the right thoughts will also help.
Kagemusha
03-30-2010, 23:17
If you want to Org, just be patient and you will. Thinking the right thoughts will also help.
Well maybe" for " would have been better word in English.
Well, i base my comments to the "users online" index that seems to showcase everyone online - be it a logged on member or a guest. According to that index and observations made on the same index of the twc, on average, as it has been already stated i think in this thread, twc has 10 times more traffic. Also thread numbers in sub forums are another reliable index, as are the "viewings" index of every sub-forum. I personally think they all tell the same tale.
I doubt that the org is lacking in interest. By all accounts it is interesting if nothing else, but this is not relevant to the point being discussed. In addition, i believe that most regulars, either staff or not do contribute very much, and it couldn't have been otherwise - else they wouldn't be regulars and staff - again its kind of beside the point.
The point is the existing environment of the org and the relationship and interaction between the same and new tw games and new members, as well as the course the org has run and the direction it wishes to follow in the future.
Kagemusha
03-31-2010, 00:57
Well, i base my comments to the "users online" index that seems to showcase everyone online - be it a logged on member or a guest. According to that index and observations made on the same index of the twc, on average, as it has been already stated i think in this thread, twc has 10 times more traffic. Also thread numbers in sub forums are another reliable index, as are the "viewings" index of every sub-forum. I personally think they all tell the same tale.
I doubt that the org is lacking in interest. By all accounts it is interesting if nothing else, but this is not relevant to the point being discussed. In addition, i believe that most regulars, either staff or not do contribute very much, and it couldn't have been otherwise - else they wouldn't be regulars and staff - again its kind of beside the point.
The point is the existing environment of the org and the relationship and interaction between the same and new tw games and new members, as well as the course the org has run and the direction it wishes to follow in the future.
Well i am long standing member of both Org and TWC and i can tell you that volume isnt everything but still needed. I dont think Org is hostile to new members to slightest extend. TWC´s growth came mostly with putting priority to modding and expanding amount of specialized subforums, where their "senior" member class,the "citizens" tried their best to contribute by creating interesting threads and posts. Large emphasis is also made on the appearance of forums, while the TWC members have created for example various forum skins.
With ETW and NTW the totalwar modding community will not be the magnet it used to be in times of MTW, RTW and M2TW. Simply because the games are less and less moddable. So if Org wants to survive.My opinion is that we should look into what else this forum can offer to people other then TW content and work on those aspects. In any case i think best way would be by creating a facelift for the old gall by creating bunch of new forum skins. I dont know if Tosa could create a test board where we could test new skins?
I appreciate that you are a long standing member of the community, but you are not the only one.
I doubt very much that the twc became popular only due to being interesting. Modding played certainly a very large part, but so did the fact that twc was far more open as a community, is using the reputation system and has internal politics based on it, it allows custom avatars, by all accounts was open to less mature and younger members and also embraced the newer tw games. To be perfectly honest a large part of the popularity of twc is unwnted from an orgahs point of view and i certainly agree with that. Amidst the accessible and loose environment there is a lot of pettiness, and this certainly also contributes (to its popularity). However, the org may be on the edge of having reached the other end - ie being isolationist due to its conservatism in regards to the tw community.
Volume is not everything - but a certain amount of inflow of new members is needed for the forum to remain dynamic both in terms of environment and participation. The problem is that past a critical point, a "downward spiral" effect may make the effects of lack of inflow sharply dramatic. Such an effect has already taken place; during the RTW years the org and the twc were almost equal. However by the time of M2TW the org lost ground because the trend of M2 was in line to RTW while the org core was expecting a return to pre_RTW gameplay, and because it was known to younger players by that time that twc was more oriented to CA's line. Also the org, being traditionally a bastion of the STW/MTW community that was its core, by the time of M2 was short of knowledgeable leadership in regards to new TW games. The only person that could do so (lead a new tw forum in the org), was econ21, and his absence as a moderator hurt the ETW section. Dont get me wrong; i understand that people come and go - but having only one person for that job (leadership in a new tw game sub forum) isn't exactly a sign of health in terms of participation.
Kagemusha
03-31-2010, 01:32
I appreciate that you are a long standing member of the community, but you are not the only one.
I doubt very much that the twc became popular only due to being interesting. Modding played certainly a very large part, but so did the fact that twc was far more open as a community, is using the reputation system and has internal politics based on it, it allows custom avatars, by all accounts was open to less mature and younger members and also embraced the newer tw games. To be perfectly honest a large part of the popularity of twc is unwnted from an orgahs point of view and i certainly agree with that. Amidst the accessible and loose environment there is a lot of pettiness, and this certainly also contributes. However, the org may be on the edge of having reached the other end - ie being isolationist due to its conservatism in regards to the tw community.
Volume is not everything - but a certain amount of inflow of new members is needed for the forum to remain dynamic both in terms of environment and participation. The problem is that past a critical point, a "downward spiral" effect may make the effects of lack of inflow sharply dramatic. Such an effect has already taken place; during the RTW years the org and the twc were almost equal. However by the time of M2TW the org lost ground because the trend of M2 was in line to RTW while the org core was expecting a return to pre_RTW gameplay, and because it was known to younger players by that time that twc was more oriented to CA's line. Also the org, being traditionally a bastion of the STW/MTW community that was its core, by the time of M2 was short of knowledgeable leadership in regards to new TW games. The only person that did so, was econ21, and his absence as a moderator hurt the ETW section. Dont get me wrong; i understand that people come and go - but having only one person for that job (leadership in a new tw game sub forum) isn't exactly a healthy sign.
I never said im the only one and i know one or two things about what happened at TWC during my active days there. But i wont go into commenting anything of it as i dont think it would be fair to either of these forums. I do agree that having likes of DukeJohn, Myrddraal and EpistolaRichrad as moderators in modding section was great thing for Org in the days of RTW when the community was expanding rapidly. Now if the Org doesnt posses such characters for ETW and NTW, that is a bad thing, but you cant force people to do the job if there is no interest.
So to me first thing would be to make Org look fancy enough for new people and work so the subforums would be vibrant. If that would be successful then no doubt we would gain many new interesting people also. Copy catting TWC is not an option as there is one TWC already. Org should adapt to new times, but not by loosing its essence.
This is indeed the core of the matter - change org's hardline in several areas or not.
I dont think that the org should turn into twc, neither i've ever implied that people should be forced to do the job. My comments were simply pointing out that there is a reason why there are few people to do it - because the org's core does not really like new tw.
There are several areas that the org's policy is perhaps too tight for its own good in terms of influx of new members; these are:
1. Avatar policy - even the moderators sounded happy to get new ones with the new infusion of NTW avatars.
2. Junior Member status - often frustrating even.
3. Strong line of the majority, that consists of more mature (age and otherwise) members that creates a strict environment for younger members, and also has often strong and common opinions overall.
Again, dont get me wrong; these are the very same points that are good about the org and indeed make it what it is. And so any changes - if judged appropriate - they should be respectful to the character of the org.
However, it would be rather sad imo for the org to evolve into a slowly dying place due to the lack of influx of members to take up office. Imo again, that's exactly whats happening right now. I;m not an admin, not even staff. But its clear that a crtical point is fast appraoching for the org, in terms of direction, content and demographic. If it is judged that the status quo and its foreseeable future is acceptable, then fine. If not, something's gotta be done in order to strengthen and revitalise the relationship of the org and new tw as well as the demographic.
Pannonian
03-31-2010, 02:13
Well i am long standing member of both Org and TWC and i can tell you that volume isnt everything but still needed. I dont think Org is hostile to new members to slightest extend. TWC´s growth came mostly with putting priority to modding and expanding amount of specialized subforums, where their "senior" member class,the "citizens" tried their best to contribute by creating interesting threads and posts. Large emphasis is also made on the appearance of forums, while the TWC members have created for example various forum skins.
The devolved model that TWC uses, where staff are very ready to allow local interests to have limited moderation powers in their own forums, may also contribute towards the dedication that members have towards TWC, which is effectively the gateway and host for their own little forum. And for the more rabid, there is also the abiding feature of TWC, the site politics. I don't think I've seen another internet forum that formally gives its members so many rights, to the eternal frustration of its staff. Thank goodness the scene is saner now than it used to be.
Kagemusha
03-31-2010, 02:19
These are indeed important matters and i would like to hear input form more Orgahs concerning these matters. This next thing is just my personal opinion, but for example if we look at ETW modding and we would like to have talented modders as moderators. If i were a admin i would offer full Moderatorship to both Mailman653 and King Louise Assurbanipal. If Fisherking is indeed the heart and soul of ETW forums, maybe he should then indeed run those forums. This is in no way criticizm towards anyone, but i think that those who have the will and enthusiasm, should be able to have means to project that.
We have many great unique things, like the PBEM section,gameroom and chapter house.But i agree that it is the TW section from which new people come in. Maybe for example it should be seriously discussed to drop the whole junior member thing atleast for a time to see if that would cause more trouble then good things.
Edit: Pannonian i think you know my views on site politics? I guess im still one of the only citizens who cant even see the Curia in TWC, which priviledge Imb gave me long time a go.:smug2:
I very much agree with all you've just posted. Indeed these are very useful suggestions imo.
Megas Methuselah
03-31-2010, 02:44
...or they get banned for being to educated (actually arguing against mainstream). This, at least, is my oppinion.
I don't know, man; I'm still here. Though I was banned plenty of times, I think they just sort of gave up on me...
Pannonian
03-31-2010, 02:47
Edit: Pannonian i think you know my views on site politics? I guess im still one of the only citizens who cant even see the Curia in TWC, which priviledge Imb gave me long time a go.:smug2:
You're out of touch man. The politics moved to Q&S long ago, where I was chiefly responsible for fending off the rabble for the best part of a year, tearing out much of my hair in the process. The Curia hasn't seen any controversy since around 2007, and is nowadays chiefly the forum where citizens wander around wondering what the place is for.
Kagemusha
03-31-2010, 02:55
You're out of touch man. The politics moved to Q&S long ago, where I was chiefly responsible for fending off the rabble for the best part of a year, tearing out much of my hair in the process. The Curia hasn't seen any controversy since around 2007, and is nowadays chiefly the forum where citizens wander around wondering what the place is for.
Ofcourse im out of touch as i havent even looked at Curia in years. But that job of yours most have given you quite few grey hair. I mainly only hang out in history and science sections of TWC.
pevergreen
03-31-2010, 04:32
The only person that could do so (lead a new tw forum in the org), was econ21, and his absence as a moderator hurt the ETW section. Dont get me wrong; i understand that people come and go - but having only one person for that job (leadership in a new tw game sub forum) isn't exactly a sign of health in terms of participation.
May be true. If it wasn't for econ, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't have stuck around.
1. Avatar policy - even the moderators sounded happy to get new ones with the new infusion of NTW avatars.
2. Junior Member status - often frustrating even.
3. Strong line of the majority, that consists of more mature (age and otherwise) members that creates a strict environment for younger members, and also has often strong and common opinions overall.
1. Avatar policy has been voted on a number of times, and though my head says recently, it may have been end of 07 when the last poll happened. The avatars are stuck in TW Themed. Community has voted each time to keep them that way.
2. It can be, but look at how much its been relaxed. When I joined, I could post in the entrance hall only. I had to wait 300 seconds (5 minutes) between every post. Between thread creation, I think it was like 2 and a half days.
3. I don't understand, are you saying that it makes it hard to come into an environment where everyone already knows each other and there is common opinions on stuff? I would agree, but I would also hope that we try to welcome the newer members, as the old Welcoming Committe did, and as many still do.
If i were a admin i would offer full Moderatorship to both Mailman653 and King Louise Assurbanipal. If Fisherking is indeed the heart and soul of ETW forums, maybe he should then indeed run those forums.
Mailman: yes. KLA? He certainly has the ability, but I see no reason why he should become a moderator. If he was inclined in that direction, I'm sure he'd post a bit more in that section, instead of putting his mod stuff in Parliament. If you have mod choice based on ability (like it seems you have done), then the entire structure would change...We'd have Prussian Iron leading the Frontroom, Tribesman leading the Backroom etc etc
Originally posted by pevergreen
1. Avatar policy has been voted on a number of times, and though my head says recently, it may have been end of 07 when the last poll happened. The avatars are stuck in TW Themed. Community has voted each time to keep them that way.
Yes, i know. But this is precisely the point. The conservatism of the community evidently won't be overcome by the community. It needs a bold move, by the administration/staff, assuming of course they judge that such a move is desirable. However "judge" is the keyword. If the org community thinks that this should be treated as a matter of preference, then the current avatar policy may as well stay. However the point is that its far more than that. It is a matter that affects accessibility as well as other things. As such it has to be rethought on that basis, rather than aesthetics only.
2. It can be, but look at how much its been relaxed. When I joined, I could post in the entrance hall only. I had to wait 300 seconds (5 minutes) between every post. Between thread creation, I think it was like 2 and a half days.
To be honest, the ability to edit for junior members is at the centre of this one. Almost all of them seem bewildered at the fact to various degrees (it adds to the embarassment and stress of the newby, especially for first timer and young people), as well as to the fact that they are under "supervision" by mods in order to be awarded membership status. I think this one being taken out would go quite some way towards bringing down accessibility barriers.
3. I don't understand, are you saying that it makes it hard to come into an environment where everyone already knows each other and there is common opinions on stuff? I would agree, but I would also hope that we try to welcome the newer members, as the old Welcoming Committe did, and as many still do.
The environment is precisely the great attraction and strength of the org. The good things about it are that its close knit, mature, having evolved through true fit and over some time, and that it has certain characteristics, admitedly pluralistic but characteristics nevertheless. The bad thing is that the reception and integration processes are quite detailed and slow - hence the close knit. The org lacks dynamic communities within the community as of late (with the notable exception of the EB community), and as time will go by it may well lack more if the demographic trend continues.
Maturity is also a large part of it. Warman was a good example. He had been accepted, given chances and treated nicely and fairly and yet because of that (and not despite) he was unable to integrate because he didn't had the potential to reach the level that would have been acceptable (at this time of his life). Warman behaves far more reasonably in certain instances in the twc, especially when among more immature members than he. This would have been an impossibility here, and so Warman is still to this day - believe it or not - lurking around the org and digging out for supporters, in order to stage his comeback. In short, what has been asked of him, was impossible to him at least for many more years to come, creating in essence a love/hate relationship from his side to this place, because he was implicitly asked to become an "orgah", while the best he could realistically do (and everyone knew it) was a caricature of an orgah. The expectation was unreasonable, and the result predictable. Admitedly Warman;s case is extreme, but it contains a truth; that the org does not have a place for various types of member. It has a place for a certain type of member - that which is akin to what we are here or to the type of member that is willing to become something very much like what we are here. The sieve holes are a little too small, especially given the fact that new tws are adressed to younger players.
Another example is the aforementioned issue about the moderation of teh redoubt - again a community within the community was judged with criteria that would have been valid in the "core" parts of the org, the frontroom, the gameroom or the parliament (or any other sp subforum). That was a mistake and the consequences showed. Whats happening in the reception and integration course of new members as a whole is a similar type of thing. The idiosyncracies of communities within the community are in fact discouraged, hence the homogeneity. Homogeneity however brings eventually lack of tension (harmful and creative) and eventually (lack) of pluralism. The environment finally stagnates.
pevergreen
03-31-2010, 06:12
Warman...I don't want to bring that back up. inb4 lock etc
But I disagree that the person must fit. If it was that rigid, you wouldn't have people like PI, or me when I started. Or even now. :laugh4:
As for your last paragraph, in my current state I don't understand most of what you said and so I shall not respond to it. :beam:
In fact you and PI are among the few new/young members that "managed" to fit. You in particular are still in the process imo.
As for the last paragraph, i am indebted to your shortsightedness ;)
Prince Cobra
03-31-2010, 08:53
Warman...I don't want to bring that back up. inb4 lock etc
But I disagree that the person must fit. If it was that rigid, you wouldn't have people like PI, or me when I started. Or even now. :laugh4:
As for your last paragraph, in my current state I don't understand most of what you said and so I shall not respond to it. :beam:
I share a slightly different opinion on Warman. My ghostly account in the TWC is perhaps kept alive because I discuss with Warman various ingame issues. We are very different (if not totally opposite) and that's perhaps what gives charm to our communication. With the suitable approach, he can give a lot to the Org. It is not necessary to agree with everything he says, of course. But more understanding and tolerant. People grow up and change and eventually, this happens with him. I really hope he will return soon and I really hope his impetuous nature won't bring him trouble again. But he certainly deserves a chance. And yes, perhaps we need slightly more impetious people (slightly!) ~:)
I would also express my view that permament bans should be in very very limited numbers.
I also think Kage is right. Gollum also has some point as well. Things are changing. The future of the Org. should no longer be tied only with the TW games, I think. We can continue the policy of enlightened absolutism and there is nothing bad in it. I also despise the reputations, perhaps because I never aimed to be popular. But apart from that, I support the changes.
The modifications of the profile were funny but I believe they were temporarily postponed after the update. But a slightly more liberal approach won't harm as well, though trolling should not be tolerated. And once again, the TW alone seem not to be a viable option for the Org. anymore.
I for my part don´t come here so often any more b/c I do not play mafia games.
As soon as I click on new posts "half" of these are some sort of mafia this, or mafia that. I was used to interesting discussions about history / TW games [esp. EB] and sometimes soccer discussions. Well, I am not the Alpha & Omega of this forum, so just my 2 cents.
pevergreen
03-31-2010, 09:33
In fact you and PI are among the few new/young members that "managed" to fit. You in particular are still in the process imo.
As for the last paragraph, i am indebted to your shortsightedness ;)
You calling me young? I joined here on *insert join date here* and i was...15. I am now 19. :laugh4: I have to grow up some time, I guess?
And I'm totally older than Beefy. And maybe GH as well, I forget.
Would you believe that my mental capacity is so low right now that I don't understand what you are saying with that second line?
I would also express my view that permament bans should be in very very limited numbers.
I also think Kage is right. Gollum also has some point as well. Things are changing. The future of the Org. should no longer be tied only with the TW games, I think.
Bans: I don't know of a single perma ban. Warman's ban is only for a year. Plus any extensions added on (if there are any, and if it works like that)
I completely agree that the org needs to accept more games than just Total War, if we want to grow. The simplest expansion, the Paradox games.
Kagemusha
03-31-2010, 09:49
Mailman: yes. KLA? He certainly has the ability, but I see no reason why he should become a moderator. If he was inclined in that direction, I'm sure he'd post a bit more in that section, instead of putting his mod stuff in Parliament. If you have mod choice based on ability (like it seems you have done), then the entire structure would change...We'd have Prussian Iron leading the Frontroom, Tribesman leading the Backroom etc etc
I dont think it would hurt asking him. He doesnt seem to post much at all in any site outside his own hosted mod area. Doesnt make him any less capable modder and a nice person. Other then this i completely agree with you on that if Org would expand to other games, which i would see as positive as many of the Orgahs have also moved on from TW. The Paradox games would be obvious group of games to do so.
pevergreen
03-31-2010, 10:01
Doesnt make him any less capable modder and a nice person.
No it doesnt. I disagree with some of his posting methods, but he seems to have changed that anyway.
Anyway, moderator selection is a secret and mysterious thing.
In fact you and PI are among the few new/young members that "managed" to fit. You in particular are still in the process imo.
Does this mean I'm considered an "old member"?
CountArach
03-31-2010, 10:38
Yes, i know. But this is precisely the point. The conservatism of the community evidently won't be overcome by the community. It needs a bold move, by the administration/staff, assuming of course they judge that such a move is desirable.
I haven't got the time to look through everything on this thread, but this caught my eye. The problem with this idea is that you seem to assume a disconnect between staff members and forum members. Staff members are forum members first and we are responsive to the will of the forum more so than we are our own whims (we are also incredibly collaborative behind-the-scenes, far more than I thought before becoming part of staff). Such a bold step that you think is needed (probably correctly) would go against this ethos and I, for one, would be uncomfortable with staff members overwriting the will of the community just because we think it is better for the community.
Beefy187
03-31-2010, 12:32
And I'm totally older than Beefy. And maybe GH as well, I forget.
Funny that.
Asian people thinks I'm in the late 20s.
Europeans thinks I'm still a grade 10ner
As for the future of this site. Time changes.
People comes and leaves.
Game which used to excite us doesn't any more.
Its a shame but what ever change we implement, the fall is inevidable.
Our base is TW games. Even if we expand it to other games as well, we cannot match the quality of those forum dedicated to those games.
Most new comers come here for information on TW. Not for nice mates to hang around with or for taverns.
If TW dies out. We go as well.
That is the current situation. But we could easily over come this with the quantity and quality of our members :yes:
Kagemusha
03-31-2010, 12:39
Funny that.
Asian people thinks I'm in the late 20s.
Europeans thinks I'm still a grade 10ner
As for the future of this site. Time changes.
People comes and leaves.
Game which used to excite us doesn't any more.
Its a shame but what ever change we implement, the fall is inevidable.
Our base is TW games. Even if we expand it to other games as well, we cannot match the quality of those forum dedicated to those games.
Most new comers come here for information on TW. Not for nice mates to hang around with or for taverns.
If TW dies out. We go as well.
That is the current situation. But we could easily over come this with the quantity and quality of our members :yes:
Also it will be quite probaly that sooner or later we will witness the release of either R2TW (most propably) or S2TW ( bit less). And i am quite sure that both titles would strike home in this audience. Thus we have to survive untill that happens and not bury our heads in the sand.
Beefy187
03-31-2010, 12:49
I'll stick around. And if those 2 titles are going to be the next release... I might even buy them.
If worst comes to worst, we can set up a TosaInu coorporation and take over CA :clown:
The abolition of the avatar restrictions make perfect sense. People like to be individuals, but the avatars here are anything but. It would be nice if a choice of avatars were available (I'm not referring to the URL avatars - they are only viewable by registered members and are an addtion to the default avatars). Opening up the avatar selection to allow users to upload their own would be well worth it. What is the biggest problem? Me having the fluffy bunny avatar I've always wanted, or the person with massive signature that takes up two thirds of your screen? It's pointless having uniform avatars without also restricting the signatures to be "total war" related as well.
As to the junior members rank, I've never been able to make up my mind on that one. But really I think it needs to be abolished for the good of the site. To the moderators (and ex moderators including myself) it may seem a great idea for the following reasons:
1) Spambots are restricted to certain forums, thus easier to track down.
2) Those of malintent that want to register alts to cheat at polls are hampered from doing so.
3) Flaming/bashing/trolling posts cannot be edited out / the user has to think about their post before they post it.
Cannot think of any more reasons offhand.
To challenge those points:
1) No longer an issue, in the past when JMs were restricted to only the entrance hall, this was worthwhile, nowadays when JMs can post almost anywhere and every spambot has a fetish for "Spartan Total Warrior" and any forum moderated by pevergreen it's irrelevant.
2) Still valid, but assumes every member is a "criminal". Basing how the forum runs around a few idiots is not worth inconveniencing everyone else for.
3) Also assumes that JMs are inherently not to be trusted and should be viewed with suspicion until they've proven themselves. Stopping a JM from editing is also pointless as anyone can make a mistake and have a hot headed moment that they later regret (I'm sure we've all been there?), it doesn't mean that they're immediately an undesirable that the .org can do without. The ability for a member to retract a bad post is important and saves a lot of work for mods. It also cuts down on double posts and is less frustrating for new members.
I think these changes would benefit the .org and it's members - given a chance - and would not be "turning it into TWC" (which I also oppose) or attracting the wrong kind of patron.
:bow:
The abolition of the avatar restrictions make perfect sense. People like to be individuals, but the avatars here are anything but. It would be nice if a choice of avatars were available (I'm not referring to the URL avatars - they are only viewable by registered members and are an addtion to the default avatars). Opening up the avatar selection to allow users to upload their own would be well worth it.
I like the current avatar system. It makes me feel special :snobby:
Origninally posted by CA
I haven't got the time to look through everything on this thread, but this caught my eye. The problem with this idea is that you seem to assume a disconnect between staff members and forum members. Staff members are forum members first and we are responsive to the will of the forum more so than we are our own whims (we are also incredibly collaborative behind-the-scenes, far more than I thought before becoming part of staff). Such a bold step that you think is needed (probably correctly) would go against this ethos and I, for one, would be uncomfortable with staff members overwriting the will of the community just because we think it is better for the community.
In fact i think that the community and teh staff are indeed becoming increasingly one and the same thing and this is the root and effect at the same time of the problem. The community is the staff because that's how its meant to be in order to be the community.
My points about warman meant not to reopen the discussion and the drama surrounding it - they meant to show an example.
PrinceC: i undrstand where you are coming from but i disagree (respectfully) with you.
Pever: it has nothing to do with mental powers, but with age. It doesnt mean you are no good or dump or anything - just taht your time to dwelve deep in this kind of thing hasn;t come yet. It doesnt mean anything other than that.
Also dont be in a hurry to grow up - because you might end up doing at 40 what you haven't done at 20 like most. At 19 be 19 and at 99 be 99 if you want my opinion. The last sentence meant to read "thank you" for not opening the moderation of the redoubt disagreement.
Sorry for the quick answers, just being pressed for time.
Ibn-Khaldun
03-31-2010, 16:24
I also agree that current avatar system is good enough. I have an ORG avatar in TWC as well(I think, haven't been there for some time..)! :beam:
Prince Cobra
03-31-2010, 18:40
My points about warman meant not to reopen the discussion and the drama surrounding it - they meant to show an example.
PrinceC: i undrstand where you are coming from but i disagree (respectfully) with you.
Well, I certainly did not want to begin a new pointless debate. About the second, I respectfully disagree that you know where I come from. Assumptions are tricky things, sometimes they can be wrong. :bow:
Back to topic: Well, I love this avatar of mine and somehow, it would be hard to imagine the Org. without those nice avatars. A second, more random (how random is a matter of further clarification) avatar could exist, even with the main skin (for the registered members, say). However, the old avatars (updated or not) must stay and add a specific atmosphere in the Org. I am sure those members who want to be different can easily remake their TW avatars with a painting program. I think when there is one standard people get more creative in order to become different.
Ibn-Khaldun
03-31-2010, 18:47
Btw, since we talk about avatars at the moment, it is possible to get custom made avatars if they fit the current avatar sizes. Just ask Tosa if you can use it and he will make it happen(i think...)
Read all of the thread, and I agree with most suggestions given. I would like to stress the end of the Avatar restrictions, which seem really weird. So long as you impose a set of restrictions on size and subject of the avatar, I don't see any inconvinience with having personalized avatars.
Alexander the Pretty Good
03-31-2010, 22:51
Imposing restrictions on "subject" for avatars is a ton of work for the mods/admin. I personally like the avatar restrictions, and it seems like the community generally does as well. I'm down for another vote on the matter, but remember when overruling the "conservative" forum population you may lose more than you gain.
pevergreen
04-01-2010, 01:07
Btw, since we talk about avatars at the moment, it is possible to get custom made avatars if they fit the current avatar sizes. Just ask Tosa if you can use it and he will make it happen(i think...)
Unsure if anyone here is aware of this, but custom avatars already exist.
Your URL avatar can be about whatever you want... Many people use them in favour of the normal avatar already.
Just to make it clear PrinceC; i mean that i disagree with you about whether the org should stay as it is or not. Not about warman.
:bow:
Centurion1
04-09-2010, 02:28
whats a "new member" when do you become an accepted member?
pevergreen
04-09-2010, 03:37
Generally they are done in batches, and every few weeks.
Could take a few days, could take a few weeks. Rare for it to last a month.
whats a "new member" when do you become an accepted member?
IIRC, a new member is a member that has not yet activated their account by clicking the email confirmation link.
Yohei
I like how gollum talked about that a certain type of member does not fit to the org and I oddly thought that I fitted into that description. >:(
Fixiwee,
It's not a certain type of member not fitting the org. If you read it to mean that any person doesn't feel comfortable here, that's possible of course. It's a certain type of behavior that's not accepted.
It's also not true that certain opinions, beliefs, ways of life etc. are not welcome here. Both G.W. Bush and O. Bin Laden can become member, get Backroom access, be welcome and become a valuable gem here. They don't have to like each other or agree about anything.
Ibn-Khaldun
04-10-2010, 09:30
Fixiwee,
It's not a certain type of member not fitting the org. If you read it to mean that any person doesn't feel comfortable here, that's possible of course. It's a certain type of behavior that's not accepted.
It's also not true that certain opinions, beliefs, ways of life etc. are not welcome here. Both G.W. Bush and O. Bin Laden can become member, get Backroom access, be welcome and become a valuable gem here. They don't have to like each other or agree about anything.
That would be interesting. Should we send them an invite? :rolleyes:
Fixiwee,
It's not a certain type of member not fitting the org. If you read it to mean that any person doesn't feel comfortable here, that's possible of course. It's a certain type of behavior that's not accepted.
It's also not true that certain opinions, beliefs, ways of life etc. are not welcome here. Both G.W. Bush and O. Bin Laden can become member, get Backroom access, be welcome and become a valuable gem here. They don't have to like each other or agree about anything.
Try to compare an Orgah with a SA Goon. The latter does not fit here.
I have long accepted the fact that this is a forum with rigerous and restrictiv moderation. I respect that, but that does not mean I have to be active here.
About what I said too Fixiwee. Noone forces anyone to stay here, but noone will force anyone to leave either (unless that person fails to behave on this board).
Will you become their mentor Ibn-Khaldun?
Tosainu: its your board and your call.
However consider that what tw was is gone. Its something different now and this site cannot remain connected to its present reality with the line it has but only to the memory of what was its reality once upon a time.
The org is special and a nice place to be. It may be getting a bit too special and too nice though. The things you say are true and also not true - we can analyse it in depth but it will be useless because i know just as well as you know that there is a subjective/personal element there (as it should be), the collective subjective element of admins + staff that sets the line of what type of member (with its attendant behaviour) is and is not acceptable, what opinions are and are not debatable etc. It isn't simply a matter of saying that different opinions etc are possible in paper - it is a matter of seeing how this pluralism is happening in reality. And the reality is that there is a homogeneity that is protected and defended by the majority of the regulars/staff/admins proudly even. The homogeneity does not only encompasses behaviour but also trends of opinions in many cases.
However, i repeat that tw is not what it used to be and so the org is not what it used to be. This is a real situation and you guys have a real choice to make. I know that you are strong willed, and that's a virtue is many instances. However not in all. In any case the decision is up to you at the end of the day and the rest of the staff. I am well aware that the org most likely will keep the course it has at the moment. However, i'm not sure if it will help it in terms of environment. The last line of integarted regular members have matured (yaseikhan, count arach, psychonaut/rythmic), and assuming pevergreen becomes a mod too - what then?
Who will take up the torch then? There are almost none left i'm afraid and even fewer in tw strictly related sub forums.
:bow:
pevergreen
04-10-2010, 15:03
The last line of integarted regular members have matured (yaseikhan, count arach, psychonaut/rythmic), and assuming pevergreen becomes a mod too - what then?
Who will take up the torch then? There are almost none left i'm afraid and even fewer in tw strictly related sub forums.
:bow:
You have to look at the join dates. Some were years before me, some a year or two after. When I came here, it was pretty much the first big forum that I stayed at for more than a week or so. The moderating team was just...right. (I know this is probably going off on a tangent)
I've always held the opinion of .org staff, that they are generally older, more mature people than the average member. (Hence my surprise when I first saw a picture of BKS). Its true quite a few of the more 'recent' moderators are coming down in age, but they do show maturity here, if not always IRL *looks at CountArach :tongue:*
They do a great job of enforcing and being a normal member as well. Don't know how Tosa/whoever else picks them, but they seem to do quite well.
Hence why I won't be becoming a mod :wink:
Hello,
There have always been young to very young staffmembers. Age is not a criteria. I know people who are only 10 years old who act like a stable 40 year old adult and I know 40 year old adults who act like a 10 year old kid. That doesn't need to be a reason to reject a member to become staff. A youthful approach will be refreshing, but how will he or she act whenever there's some stress.
You'll become a mod when you stop wanting/wishing to become a mod. I think you have uncosciously (and a bit consciously) understood this, and so you are on your way to there. Being a mod requires one not being dragged by his passions and liking and understanding people in general, as well as knowing what good measure is and what is not. It also requires a genuine love and knowledge forthe area one will be called to moderate. You'll get there eventually, but slowly - a step at a time.
PS By "the last line of integrated regular members have matured" i meant that they have matured in terms of their membership. I mean matured in the cycle "lurker, newby, established member, senior member, mod, senior member, lurker".
tibilicus
04-10-2010, 23:33
Iv'e actually wondered how the selection process for moderation happens. I kind of assumed you had to make it known that you wished to moderate a forum before you were offered the position of moderator. I'm not aware how one would go about doing that though.
When I was an assistant moderator I was voted in (fun times). I did of course volunteer before hand. Unfortunately my replacement isn't, errrrr, with us any more, but the whole voting for the assistant moderator was specific to the time and the type of forum I was assistant moderating. Again, still no idea how moderators emerge.
Centurion1
04-11-2010, 02:54
I just want to know gollum when you decide a member has become accepted by the community? when they win an award......
In that case I will never become an accepted member.
IMHO, the awards are part of the problem. They encourage clique-iness
pevergreen
04-11-2010, 10:36
In that case I will never become an accepted member.
IMHO, the awards are part of the problem. They encourage clique-iness
How so?
CoH is the most distributed award, any of you could go get it now. Writing Contests/Photography/History/Screenshot etc are based on the contests that happen.
Ignoring the old MP player of the month and STW era stuff.
HoF. Thats pretty much it.
How is the Hall of Fame encouraging a clique to form?
I havent discovered a hidden subforum and become best friends with other people.
Are the moderators a clique? I'd say no. Apart from the mod subforum, but thats needed anyway.
Are senior members? No, apart from a silly Super Exclusive Senior Members only club. That has like 7 people in it and nothing happens there. Plus its a social group, with brings me to:
The only thing I can think of on this board that encourages people to form their own groups and avoid other parts is: Social Groups.
In that case I will never become an accepted member.
IMHO, the awards are part of the problem. They encourage clique-iness
Where to draw the line? There was a short phase back in 2002 when I became administrator, where all accounts were equal. I don't quite remember whether I also hid the postcount, but I do remember we had silly strife about that before: "So you think you're l33t, because you have 500 more?' Stupid hostile ad hominems about yellow being better than blue instead of constructive discussions, laughs together and sound interactions.
The outcries about this communism were big. People want to be different and more, until the other has something else that doesn't suit their own views and then silly arguments about it pop up left and right.
It's right that the social groups have far more potential to create cliquishness than HOF awards. Yet, none of them warrants it and people are bigger than those trivialities? Or not?
pevergreen
04-11-2010, 15:11
Yet, none of them warrants it and people are bigger than those trivialities? Or not?
I do believe so, even through all the 'strife' the org has gone through. People have risen above it and continued on contributing to the org.
Or they've left. :no:
But sometimes they come back. :beam:
Gregoshi
04-11-2010, 16:25
In IMHO, the awards are part of the problem. They encourage clique-iness
Funny, we were just talking about that the other day over champagne and caviar in the Awards Lounge...
As to some of the points discussed:
1) It may be time to drop all restrictions on new members, at least for a trial period and see how it goes. There are so few restrictions (editing and Backroom?) on the accounts now, why not? There were/are reasons for it, but despite the intentions, the system seems to be seen as a "guilty until proven innocent" thing. Perception is reality.
2) A re-examination regarding the direction of the Org is a good thing. However, we don't know if the staff has done this already unless they open up the discussion to the general membership. I see no problem with staying with TW, but us of the old guard have to accept that the game has changed from STW/MTW and need to cultivate the fans of the newer releases. An appropriate moderator is not the key other than having their hand on the pulse of that particular community. A mod is a mod - not a cheerleader.
3) In my experience, the selection of moderators is essentially based on maturity - showing good judgement in posting on sensitive issues, not trolling, avoiding troll bait and generally conducting themselves as good patrons. Active participation helps too.
4) As for limitations on what can be discussed, that is based more on how the topic is handled by the membership. Guns and abortion were banned topics long ago because they always ended in flame wars. A couple of years ago, it was decided to give them another try and this time around the discussions were handled much more maturely by the membership, so they are no longer verboten. Community wars (multiplayer, clan-based mostly) are off limits because Tosa and the staff doesn't want the Org to turn into a battleground for such games. The bottom line is that they want to Org to be a nice, fun place to visit. Any discussions that disrupt that turn into off limits topics.
That's my two cents.
BTW good topic and interesting discussion by all. :thumbsup:
Centurion1
04-11-2010, 16:54
i think you should have to get permission for backroom. Many of the discussions in the TWC put the backroom to shame in the immature category. And its not like a real screening anyway.
tibilicus
04-11-2010, 16:58
Where to draw the line? There was a short phase back in 2002 when I became administrator, where all accounts were equal. I don't quite remember whether I also hid the postcount, but I do remember we had silly strife about that before: "So you think you're l33t, because you have 500 more?' Stupid hostile ad hominems about yellow being better than blue instead of constructive discussions, laughs together and sound interactions.
The outcries about this communism were big. People want to be different and more, until the other has something else that doesn't suit their own views and then silly arguments about it pop up left and right.
It's right that the social groups have far more potential to create cliquishness than HOF awards. Yet, none of them warrants it and people are bigger than those trivialities? Or not?
Ah, a .org commune. let me guess, it should of worked well in principle but didn't work in reality?
I actually think the clique-iness of the .org is less than it used to be. Back in 2005 when I first joined, a lot of the moderating staff were members who had been part of the old Shogun/medieval community, in particular the multiplayer community. From what I gathered this was more so before I joined and prior to what I would imagine was either 2003 or 2004 most of the moderating staff were linked to this close knit community in some way. I wasn't around when it was like this and I only saw the tail end of it if you like, but some people saw this as a type of clique.
From about 2005 onwards though a lot more moderators were chosen from different areas and this old community clique kind of faded away as people left the .org or retired their position for whatever reason. Indeed, I don't really see there being a clique any more. I guess it could seem like there still is a clique but I would put that down to the size of the .org more than there being a kind of sub-community.
Peasant Phill
04-12-2010, 22:49
We can talk all about measures on how to improve the recruitment of new .Orgmembers as much as you like but until there are definite indications about the reasons for our diminishing and aging (meaning fewer new members) membership base, those measures will just be blind acts.
Do other TW-based sites also have the same problem? => maybe the fan base committed enough to contribute to forums has shrunk (in which case it's out of our hands)
What do still dynamic TW-based sites do differently? => that's the measures we're now discussing but a more systematic approach may prove more fruitful
What changes has the internet undergone since the start of this forum that may make the .Org not desirable for the large base of players base of total war games
Only when somebody can come up with good answers to these questions, only then can a constructive and fruitful debate take place imo.
Tellos Athenaios
04-13-2010, 12:27
@Centurion:
That used to be the case. “Backroom” is still a special Member Group (just like Europa Barbarorum is) which gives you access to associated forums. Which in turn means only “Europa Barbarorum” members should be able to visit EBH and only “Backroom” members the Backroom.
However at some point the forum staff decided they'd like more souls in the Backroom and extended membership to automatically include every member. Backroom is still invisible for people not logged on as a member though.
Hello Tellos Athenaios,
I think we only auto opted people in when we created it, in other words, already existing members became member there right away.
Centurion1
04-13-2010, 18:40
yeah tellos you have to apply now. its pretty automatic i think but you still have too.
edyzmedieval
04-13-2010, 22:52
Very interesting thread I must add.
With my 5th year of membership slowly coming along, I feel the need to say that during my first two years I had some amazing times on the Org.
Funny to say, but it was a very lively board with lots of interesting people and I learned a lot from this place. I even met one member from the Org in real life!
Bottom line, and sorry for my short post, is that we eventually have to move on. I have to move on as well - I was in secondary school when I joined, now I'm less than one month away from finishing high school. Times change, you have to move on. I do hope the old guard stays along, because the Org needs to preserve its identity.
I for one will certainly be here. :bow:
Centurion1: pardon me, but i don't understand your point; i don't think i ever said that to be "accepted" means getting awards. Awards are a form of recognition and have nothing to do with acceptance.
In regards to Subotan's point about the badges/titles of Senior Member and awards, i personally find them harmless and beneficial in certain ways. Certainly worth having around imo. And the org awards have nothing to do with cliques as far as i know.
I was talking from the perspective of a new member. Of course, I'm probably talking rubbish, but that's a possibility which should be taken into account.
Centurion1
04-16-2010, 00:48
what im asking is when gollum does a member become accepted into the .org community overall i think the .org is very welcoming. look at young nerd hes already being embraced.......... lol.
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