Hiya all!Compound Bows Questions

[KukriKhan]

Copy/pasted on behalf of new patron ShadeCrandaeolon"

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Hiya all

First post at the .org, took my sweet little time indeed. Brace yerselves.

This would belong in the Dungeon, but I'm such an infrequent poster that I might get to post there around the time Total War IV comes out.

Anyways. As far as I know, all the footarchers in the game use the same SBOW missile type. There shouldn't be any other stats that affect missile performance than the stats in the projectilestats file, right? Currently, the LONG type is exclusive to the Longbowman and the MTLG type is used by all cavalry archers.

Simply put, all this means that the compound bows that "give these soldiers an advantage thanks to their range, accuracy and penetrative power" don't exist in MTW. (The above quotation is from the description of Trebizond Archers, IIRC.) I'm wondering if it was an intentional abstraction, that the devs felt there wasn't enough of a difference between shortbow and composite bow effectiveness, or if it was "cut" for other reasons.

I'd personally prefer to have the composite bows modeled in the game, so I'd like to ask the expert modders here for ideas, help and/or a finished solution to this.

The jury-rig fix I was thinking about involves using the MTLG (mountedlongbow in the stats file)
missile type for all "compound bow" units, including the horse archers, and upping it in accuracy to the level of other bows. Perhaps an armor mod value of 0.75 or thereabouts would simulate the greater power of the composite bow when compared to the short bow. The other stats of the various missile types could be tweaked as well, as Kraxis and undoubtedly many others have done. Also, I feel the effectiveness of cavalry archers should be increased; and, as they have to come to a stop to fire their shots, there's little reason why they should be less accurate than foot archers.

I already did a lot of tweaking with the projectilestats file, but I'm not going to bore you with the exact modifications in this already pretty long post.

There's also the problem of deciding which units should have these "compound bows". Most of them are pretty obvious, but it might be necessary to make some compromises due to balancing reasons (and yes, I'd like to have a reasonably balanced game even if they're only my personal SP stats... ). Ah, one quick question: do actual unit (or in this case, missile) stats affect the auto resolve combat?


I'd like to hear comments on this. Could it work? Would it be worth it? Has someone already done this?

-C
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You folks can respond here, or in the Entrance Hall:
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....ry29006 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=2561;st=0;r=1;&#entry29006)

[Erado San]

Do you think compound bows existed in the middle ages?

[Latro]

You don't?

[KukriKhan]

ShadeCrandaeolon's reply:

Quote

Erado San:

Do you think compound bows existed in the Middle ages?



Err... yes. The compound, or "composite", bow is believed to first have appeared around 2000-1500 BC in the steppes of Cenral Asia. So unless there was some terrible cataclysm that mystically erased the memories of traditional Islamic bowmakers, there's a fairly large chance those bows existed in the Middle Ages. The prophet Muhammad was reputed to be an expert archer (and yes, using the al-Islam compound bow) and there's a well-known quotation attributed to him: "Angels attend no sport save archery".

Here's a copy-paste from Cariadoc's Miscellany about the making of the bow:

"To make a bow is the work of a year. The core is made of wood, most commonly in five parts, although some use more or less. These parts are the grip, the two limbs, and the siyahs. The parts are spliced together and glued with great care; when the bow is complete, one cannot see where one ends and the next begins. This work is done in autumn, and then also the horn is sawed and fitted to the core. In the winter the horn is glued to the belly of the bow and bound there, and the glue is permitted to dry for some months. In spring the sinew is applied to the back of the bow. During the summer the bow is strung and shaped, and at the last painted."

Did this post answer yer question, Erado?

[Kraellin]

ummm, i think maybe folks are getting confused on the terms here. a compound bow is not the same thing as a composite bow. a composite bow was one made of several different types of wood, which made it stronger, where a compound bow, i believe, is that much more modern invention with the extra pulleys and levers and whatever that give it more power.

composite bows did indeed exist in earlier times, the other, i dont believe did. but hey, i'm not a historian, so look it up for yourselves :)

K.

[KukriKhan]

Heh, Kraellin. Said the same durn thing here:
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=2561 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=2561)

question is: does the game refer to compound? or composite?

[Jagger]

I posted this on the 13th. Here is a repost. I also increased the values of the MBow because most of those troops also used a recursive composite bow. It was a smaller version of the bow used by foot muslem/orthodox troops.

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If you would like to add a new projectile weapon to your units, you can use the ninjastar projectile. The ninjastar is not used in the game and thus is a free projectile which can be modified to represent another projectile type. However, you must use "NINJ" in the projectile slot of the crusunitprod file.

I used it to add the recursive composite bow used by the muslums and pagans and hungarians, etc. The recursive bow falls between the shortbow and longbow. The shortbow used in the west was a simple single piece weapon without the power, accuracy or distance of the recursive, composite bow used in the east. So I needed stats representing this weapon between the longbow and shortbow and by altering the ninjastar stats, I have it now.

First, I made sure all stats between the ninjastar and shortbow (better to use Longbow) were identical. Then I changed the falling stats:
range=6000, accuracy=.6 and lethality=.65, power=1. Of course, you can use whatever stats you feel are most appropriate.

Next, you can go into the crusunitprod file, choose any appropriate Muslum or Pagan bowman which should use the recursive composite shortbow and change the proj to "NINJ".
And there you go. You now have an archer unit using the more powerful recursive shortbow.

And if you want, you can add a new archer unit. I am going to create a new unit called the Saracen Muslim archer based in Sicily and southern Italy (actually just Naples). Historically a contingent of Sicilian muslems lived in this region and served the HRE and Norman Sicilians through the High period.

Have fun

[Crandaeolon]

Thanks, Jagger. I tried to search for just that kind of stuff, but as you only used the word "composite" I didn't find yer post. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I agree that "composite" is the proper term for the laminated recurve bow, but as the various unit descriptions in the game use the term "compound", I primarily used that. I did use the the other term a few times, though. Probably shouldn't have, if it created confusion.

As a side note, I practice archery and own both a modern compound bow with pulleys ("cams" in the jargon, had to check it up though as English is not my primary language...) and a laminated composite recurve bow made using traditional techniques. The modern bow is of course much more forgiving to shoot, I have a bow with a 70% let-off, which means that you have to hold off only 30% of the bow's draw weight when aiming. The traditional composite bow has no such luxury, of course, and it's a much heavier draw weight too, I'm barely strong enough to use it properly...

*ahem* enough sidetracking. Jagger, ya said ya used the NINJ projectile type to create the new bow... how did it work? Does it have the same arrow model, sound effects etc. as the bows? If so, that would be helpful as then I could tweak the horsebowmen separately.

And what units did you change to use the composite bow? Did you base it on the unit descriptions or pictures in the game or actual historical data? (Actually, the bow renderings in the game could be better... or rather, more different. They all look like the Asiatic composite bow.)I'm too lazy to start gathering evidence of what bowmen used which, so it would be most welcome if someone had done this already... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jagger]

Hi ShadeC,

From what I have read, the draw weights of the recursive composite bow were similiar to the longbow. Some have argued that it has the same penetrative power as the longbow. But from the differences in range, I suspect the composite bow is using a lighter arrow. I also suspect that these eastern and Muslim troops were less concerned about penetration because armor wasn't as big a factor as in the west especially after the 1250-1300's.

I have also read that there were two versions of these bows. The mounted and infantry bow with the infantry bow as long as a longbow. The mounted bow was much smaller but still had a tremendous range. So I ended up creating the composite recursive bow using the ninjastar stats and adjusting the values of the mountedlongbow. With the mountedlongbow, I wanted to see greater range but less penetrative capability.

It was really hard finding good info on these bows. At the bottom I will list some of my reference sites. Although with your hands on experience and interest, you may have better sources than I have.

I was pretty happy with my results. By using the longbow stats, the arrows have similiar appearance and arc to the longbow arrows. The troops look as they were originally created in the game. With the new stats, the impact on target troops is substantially better than the shortbow.

I ended up giving all Muslem archer units the recursive composite bow. I am fairly confident of the accuracy of this change. The Muslims had a strong history and interest in the bow. I also found good information of the Golden Horde using the recursive bow. I am pretty sure Byzantine used it. I found some information indicating the Hungarians horse used it but not the dates.
I suspect all the Eastern horse arhers used it. As a general rule, I suspect everyone used it except the western countries which were behind the times as they were emerging from the dark ages.

Finally I decided on giving the following units the new composite recursive bow: Desert Archers, Trebizond Archers, Bulgarian Brigandines, Janissary Bows, Nizari, Futuwwa, Janissary Infantry, Turcoman Foot, Ottoman Infantry, Golden Horde Infantry, Hashinshin and Saracen Archers. I also adjusted the values of the mountedlongbow stats. Which means all units using that projectile were affected. But if you look at those units, they are all muslum or orthodox or pagan units including the Hungarians and Russians. So that works out pretty well.

Last, I think of all of this as ball park, generic adjustments to portray a weapon that I am sure was very variable. I am fairly happy with the general results I am seeing within the game. The Muslims and eastern troops are a pain in the neck with their bows vs regular Western archer units. The GoldenHorde horse archers with their 6000 range light arrows can really whittle down your lightly armored troops. Muslem/Byzantine ground archers can hurt you if you aren't careful. But as armor becomes more and more of a factor with time, the bows become less of a factor.

I will get back on the sources. I will have to run through them and pick out the good ones.

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]
From what I have read, the draw weights of the recursive composite bow were similiar to the longbow.

I have also read that there were two versions of these bows. The mounted and infantry bow with the infantry bow as long as a longbow. The mounted bow was much smaller but still had a tremendous range.

Last, I think of all of this as ball park, generic adjustments to portray a weapon that I am sure was very variable.


I didn't really use any primary sources with those posts, it was a long time ago when I last read books about the history of archery. I did refresh my memory a bit with a Google search (tertiary sources), but only a couple of the sites that turned up were useful. As someone said in the Entrance hall thread, lots of roleplaying sites turned up... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

There is a lot of arguing about the draw weights and effective ranges of both the longbow and the composite bow... from 65 to 110 pounds for the self (single-piece) longbow and from about 70 to 150 (&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif pounds for the longer infantry composite bows. Man, 150 pounds... that would've been one friggin' heavy bow Effective range of the longbow should be somewhere between 180 and 250 yards; 200 yards seems to be a common estimate for the composite bow.

Your final point about the variance in these weapons couldn't be more true. There were bows of very different lengths, also the techniques for making them were different. For example, Middle-eastern bows had compression-resistant horn in the belly of the bow and flexible sinew in the back, whereas Chinese bows were construced from entirely vegetable matter... fresh bamboo in the back and old, dry bamboo in the belly. Sometimes the bows were even made of metal

Alright, might be getting a bit too specific here, hopefully I'm not scaring people away... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'll definitely check yer sources, Jagger, if ya can be bothered to sort 'em out, but don't make it too much of a trouble for yerself. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kraellin]

actually, i find this discussion kind of interesting. isnt a recursive bow one that has the normal curve through the middle and then sweeps the other way at the ends?

and yes, metal bows did exist.

and didnt some of the norse also have a rather powerful bow, with a rather large draw, maybe made of bone?

would be nice if someone could post some pics on these various bows. i'm thinking of using some of this stuff for a mod, or maybe a composite mod :)

K.

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]
isnt a recursive bow one that has the normal curve through the middle and then sweeps the other way at the ends?

Yep. I believe that's the basic Asiatic bow, depicted in the images of MTW.

A "recurve" is actually a part of the bow that curves "against" the bow's main curvature. Recurves are used to increase the draw weight of the bow by adding resistance. There are lots of differently shaped recursive bows.


Quote[/b] ]
and didnt some of the norse also have a rather powerful bow, with a rather large draw, maybe made of bone?

Horn was common, can't really say about bone. Perhaps. But most likely even those bows had a wooden core? You're still talking about composites, right? And I'd assume the Norse used single-piece wooden bows since wood is plentiful in Scandinavia... one reason why the composite bows appeared in Middle-East is the relative lack of suitable wood in the region. I'm not sure about the Norse using the composite bow, though, a bit embarrassing since I'm Finnish... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Here's a quickie link I stumbled on. It has some photos of traditionally made composite bows, as well as some history.

http://www.grozerarchery.com/bows_intro.htm

Not much, but a start anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif After checking that intro out, I recommend to use the actual www.grozerarchery.com address for further looking.

Edit: check the original thread in the Entrance Hall, it has some decent links posted by Spetulhu. Here's the link:

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=2561 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=2561)

And here are the links he posted there, for yer convenience... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/history.htm
http://www.ping.be/olivier_picard/history/egypt.htm
http://www.intoarch.com/Articles/article/10/1/
http://www.applink.net/wolfpack/archery.html

[Crandaeolon]

Finished with the composite bow mod, and I'm very pleased with the results. I like the added difficulty very much when playing as the Spanish and facing Almohad Desert Archers; also the performance of Muslim factions on the strategic map (vs AI factions) didn't seem to get a boost. That's good. Let's see what happens with the Golden Horde... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And, it's still not _too_ easy to play as the Muslim factions, especially later on in the game.

Thanks for Jagger for pointing out the ninjastar, it works like a charm.

[fenir]

Quote[/b] (KukriKhan @ Nov. 20 2002,08:34)]Err... yes. The compound, or "composite", bow is believed to first have appeared around 2000-1500 BC in the steppes of Cenral Asia. So unless there was some terrible cataclysm that mystically erased the memories of traditional Islamic bowmakers, there's a fairly large chance those bows existed in the Middle Ages.
Actually it quite likely that a lot of the knowledge was lost to Islamic bowyers. As there is lots of information on the total devestation of the steppes peoples and their movements.

Just a few notes.

The compound, or "composite", bow is believed to first have appeared around 2000-1500 BC in the steppes of Cenral Asia.
You mean some believe? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
The composite bow, no one knows where it came from, we only have theories.
Just like the Sword and the Spear, no one knows where and who invented them. But we have theories. But in reality, absolutely no idea.
for example, it is thought by some that Ancient Egypt had composite bows in the archic period.
Which would pre date your claim by 1500 years.
I personally leave it open as we will never know with any certainty.
All we can say is that, we have found a X type bow in Y region of such in such. Which only proves they had it. We have never been able to say where it came from.

2nd, If it was developed in the period you say then they would have been Indo-European tribes who developed it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
With Islam not happening in central asia until after the fall of the Perisan Empire. Circa 800AD. roughly.

While I agree totally that Composite bows existed in the middle ages, the problems (yes, plural), lie in the fact that, in different regions and different factions and tribes, all bows where/are not the same.
Take the British Iles for an example, the English Speicalised the art of the bowyer and bowman, while Scotland and Ireland or even France did not.

Most studies of Archery today seem to make the historian mistakes of old. That is to arbitarly assign a bow to entire regions. Which we know is wrong.
For example, we know that the Byzantine Bow in ~900AD was stronger than the Arabic and Seljuk Turks.
It had a greater draw, and loosed a heavy missile. While Islamic Bowyers of the period, tended to make lighter missiles and bows.


But if you are going to talk about bows? Then it entirely depends on the following factors.

1. DATE Changed all the time. Some lost the Art, some gained.

2. Faction. Not all factions choose to adopt others weapons.

3. Region. Same tribes and peoples used totally different weapons and manufacturing, hence different weapons.
For Example, the Mongol armies, it's been found the mongols used a great many different types of bows.

4. Armies Never usually had the same weapons, as most had lots of different types, Including bows. East Roman Empire being an exception to the rule.

5. The Fortunes of the Faction/Peoples.
Where they poor, where they cut off from there supplies and equipment. Or improvised?

6. What type of material was available to produce equipment.

7. Is this Bow Found here at "y" spot, a traditional manufacturer, or a passing army?

Note: The bow you Descirbe above sounds more like a Northern European bow. Maybe Middle Eastern Europe.

Making a traditional bow, by traditional methods.
well this depends on who where and what.
As we don't have a lot of the information about traditional bow making from written history.
Most peoples didn't record these things, and the ones we do know are different to other peoples and factions.

So to say or imply, that Y bow applies to Z peoples or a Religon (Islamic for Example) or faction is totally incorrect.


PS:The Longbow is also a Composite Bow, also with a slight recurve. So perhaps you might want to develop that to?

fenir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Jagger]

Shade, glad to hear it worked out

Here are some of those sites on bows:

http://www.deremilitari.org/saracen%20archers.htm Saracen archers in Southern Italy

http://www2.4dcomm.com/millenia/Weapons.htm
Eastern Horse Archers

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monmight.htm
Mongol military and equipment

http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/longbow/the-longbow.html The English Longbow

http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcel....ts.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcelo/archery/library/books/guide/docs/contents.html)
History of the bow

[Crandaeolon]

Whoa, I thought it was over. Then fenir hops into the ring with a well-argued post. Heh, I shall be happy to respond


Quote[/b] ]The compound, or "composite", bow is believed to first have appeared around 2000-1500 BC in the steppes of Cenral Asia.
You mean some believe? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Yes, exactly that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gifSome believe. I know it's impossible to pinpoint exact (or in this and many other cases, even very rough) times and places for the invention of the bow. Gah, usually I don't claim things unless I'm almost absolutely certain, should have stuck to that principle. Nevertheless, I dared to hazard a rough date. I did check some tertiary sources for it, but it is still a guess at best.


Quote[/b] ]2nd, If it was developed in the period you say then they would have been Indo-European tribes who developed it
With Islam not happening in central asia until after the fall of the Perisan Empire. Circa 800AD. roughly.
No contention here, and for the record, there never was any. I would have altered the word order of that paragraph to make it a bit more clear (and I did that in the post at the Entrance Hall), but as Kukri copy-pasted it from the Entrance Hall thread, editing was not possible. I did not originally intend to tie the Central Asian peoples of 2000-1500 BC to the religion of Islam, which was actually founded much, much later (Around 600 AD, IIRC. Fenir? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) Apologies for the confusion.


Quote[/b] ]So to say or imply, that Y bow applies to Z peoples or a Religon (Islamic for Example) or faction is totally incorrect.
Totally? Nope, not _totally_ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It would be better to say "not entirely correct" or "somewhat incorrect". Religion did have an effect; archery was a respected "sport" in Arab countries and the Moslem literature is thick with notes on bowmaking and shooting techniques. IIRC, the Turks preferred their composite bows even over crossbows for both military and spiritual reasons. Of course _all_ bows in a given faction or region were not the same, but I feel it's quite safe to assume that the composite bow was a weapon wide-spread enough in the Northern Africa, Middle-East and Central asia to warrant a slight nudge upwards in missile weapon stats compared to the mostly-European single-piece shortbow.


Quote[/b] ]Note: The bow you Descirbe above sounds more like a Northern European bow. Maybe Middle Eastern Europe.
The excerpt is from the "making of the bow of al-Islam." "Siyah" is a Turkish word. The horn-bellied, sinew-backed bow was rather common among the Turks and other peoples of the Middle-East. What exactly do you mean with "Northern Europe" here?

Points 5&6: The composite bow was partially the result of not having enough materials, esp. wood. I'd assume horn and sinew were plentiful among the various nomadic peoples of Northern Africa and Middle-East, whereas wood suitable for single-piece bows was less common. Acacia was a common wood for the core of the bows.


Quote[/b] ]PS:The Longbow is also a Composite Bow, also with a slight recurve.
Not entirely correct. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The woods used to make longbows (usually yew, but ash, elm and poplar were used as well) generally worked better to make single-piece, flat bows. There were laminated longbows, but most were single-piece. Also, it's much faster to make a flat bow than to steam a recurve. IIRC from my lessons some years back, the English used mostly flat, single-piece longbows because they were so cheap and quick to produce. Hunting weapons used by the nobility were often recurves because of the easier handling resulting from smaller size, but war bows tended to be straight. And, there was little point in making a composite longbow, as even self longbows are more than powerful enough... it's the _length_ of the bow that makes it so effective, not the draw weight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And, there's no point in "developing" the longbow into the game, as it is already there and quite powerful when compared to the shortbow, in case you haven't noticed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You seem to have access to lots of good references, fenir, could you please list some? I'd be interested to check 'em out if time permits.

Edit: Thanks Jagger, great list

[Orda Khan]

I can see your point but the 'composite' bow was a weapon used by nomadic peoples throughout Asia. It is indeed varied, however slightly, in shape and action depending on the region; from the asymetric limbs of the Hun bow, to the string braces on the Mongol bow. In the Roman Empire bows were modelled on those of the Huns.
These are in fact 'double recurve' bows, the limbs first curving away from the archer then back and finally the tips or 'siyahs' sweep forwards.

The Traditional Longbow is most certainly not a composite bow, it is a 'self' bow being one-piece construction from the lower limb of the Yew tree and utilising heartwood and sapwood.

The Nordic bow is similar to the longbow, wood, the limb tips being thicker. It is not particularly special.

Please don't confuse the Compound bow with the Composite. The compound is a modern weapon developed by American Special Services.

Nice to meet a fellow archer ShadesCrandaeolon, I shoot a Mongol bow and a Magyar bow.

Hmmmm and you live in Finland http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Try this site.....
http://www.traditional-archery-scandinavia.com it's a Finnish site full of beautiful bows made by Master Bowyer Csaba Grozer. Check out the Nomad Camp north of Kuoppio

.......Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Crandaeolon]

Unfortunately, even some "serious" primary sources use the words "compound" and "composite" interchangeably, adding into the confusion. Also MTW uses the term "compound".

I shoot a Turkish bow and a modern compound bow.

I know the site, also Mr. Grozer is a familiar figure to me. The http://www.grozerarchery.com site is very recommendable.

Edit: Mwa-ha I hadn't checked the English section before. Thanks for pointing it out, Orda Khan. Some nice pictures there. And dipping in an "avanto" in a frozen lake truly _is_ invigorating, recommended http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kraxis]

Many things can be said about the drawpower needed. But I'm pretty sure most of those tests have been done out of the traditional way of drawing, namely the one where you draw to your cheek to aim. But the Welsh and English longbows were drawn all the way back to the shoulder, making aiming a factor of experience ranther than talent. The longbows used by the vikings were indeed as big as the famous Welsh and perhaps even of better quality, but they were only drawn to the cheek and thus their full potential was not exploited.
I have never heard of other bowmen drawing the bow as the English, and that makes sense as doing that is basically against all normal thought.

Further the longer and heavier arrows of the longbows made them more powerful to be hit by and made them more stable in windy situations, than the smaller compositebow arrows.

I think I will begin testing the Ninjastar soon. I would love for Horse Archers to become more powerful and to see the composite bow enter the game. This along with the higher number of arrows in my game (48) will make most archers a force to be reckoned with.
But I will only give the composite bow to the true archers. So Jannisary Infantry, Nizari and Futuwwa will retain the shortbow.

Also I think I will test Mongol Horse Archers with Longbows.