Low Gaul morale

[Unintended BM]

I've noticed on my Sweboz game that the Aedui and Arverni rout very quickly. I'm not using any scary units or anything, and they usually outnumber me. If I was fighting Romans and they had the same number of troops as some of these Gaul armies, I'd probably lose the battle. Usually about a minute after my main line engages, the gauls break and I chase them down.

I mean, I could easily make a joke about French people retreating, but that doesn't explain anything. Why do the gauls have such low morale?

[athanaric]

I mean, I could easily make a joke about French people retreating, but that doesn't explain anything. Why do the gauls have such low morale?
Possibly because you're facing all-levies armies. Gauls in this game are a type of faction with a very strong core of elite units, and a large base of average warriors/levies.

[Unintended BM]

I've fought quite a few Solduros and naked dudes. The naked dudes never rout, but I just kill them with javelins and slingers. Solduros like to kill my FMs, but they usually run when the rest of the army starts going.

But really, usually I face them with one or two FMs, a bunch of levy and regular germanic spearmen, and some germanic archers or celtic slingers and maybe some celtic swordsmen mercenaries. Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

[Kival]

Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

Yes. The strength of the celtic armies are (except of spear-elites) their swordsmen. The levy spearmen are no good line-infantry, only good to fight some Cavalry and outnumber the enemy. The southern and later spearmen are able to hold some time longer but stil the germanic ones are superior. Without a change to the EDU your spearman (*) could also be able to win one on one against the northern celtic Swordsmen.

Also germanic and celtic troops have high charge bonus which gives the better attacker a high advantage.

*There is some modifation of the edu which gives all spearman a penalty of 4 to attack, so that the spearmen are no longer superior in melee to swordsmen.

[athanaric]

I've fought quite a few Solduros and naked dudes. The naked dudes never rout, but I just kill them with javelins and slingers. Solduros like to kill my FMs, but they usually run when the rest of the army starts going.
Solduros and Gaesatae are some of the game's toughest units. The Carnutes are even nastier in some respect.



Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?
Yes, and here's why (my "homemade" eplanation): Gauls were actually more civilized than most people think. Hence the regular Gallic units are maybe less hardened than the warriors of a more primitive, aggressive culture situated in a rougher climate (rough or extreme climate means axebitten inhabitants, see Afghanistan, Frisia, Scotland, ...).
Also, the Germanic tribes were described as more disciplined as Gauls.

And don't forget that you are infinitely better as a general than the RTW AI, which also contributes to the phenomenon.



;61
type celtic infantry gaeroas
dictionary celtic_infantry_gaeroas ; Gaeroas
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_infantry_gaeroas_balroae, 50, 0, 1.1
officer ebofficer_celtic_officer
officer ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -3
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 5, 6, javelin, 45, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 , 1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 1, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 10, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1208, 302, 50, 70, 1208
ownership britons, gauls, scythia, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, seleucid, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba, germans



;32
type germanic infantry frameharjoz
dictionary germanic_infantry_frameharjoz ; Dugunthiz
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier germanic_infantry_dugunthiz_chattispearmen, 50, 0, 1.1
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -3
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation 0.76, 1, 1.4, 2, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 7, 8, javelin, 30, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 15, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 2, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental 11, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1233, 308, 81, 140, 1233
ownership germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, parthia, gauls, britons, scythia, spain, dacia, armenia, pontus, romans_scipii, seleucid, saba, slave

[anubis88]

Also, perhaps you had this kinda situation, the domino effect. Like in my SPQR campaign, i attacked a 3500 ptoly army with 2000 romans, and once i engaded the line an the FM died, i rushed at left flank with my extraodrinarii, and first the first unit routed, then then next phalanx, and then the next and in 10 seconds the whole army statred to rout. I lost only 100 men even though the ptolies had like 8 phalanx units, and i almost no cavalry

[Kival]

I've seen your arme composition in the EB empires thread and with that army it's no wonder, that you root the celts so fast; seven units of sweboz bodyguards are seven units of elites and 5 units of experienced slingers kill about half of the enemy army before you can engage them.

EDIT: Typo.

[Unintended BM]

I've seen your arme composition in the EB empires thread and with that army it's no wonder, that you root the celts so fast; seven units of sweboz bodyguards are seven units of elites and 5 units of experienced slingers kill about have of the enemy army before you can engage them.

That's not my usual army, but that army was awesome. I had three big armies going through gaul, and they all met up around there, so to save troops and to beat the crap out of everything, I just did that. Usually I just use a bunch of spearmen and maybe 1 or 2 FMs with some germanic archers.

[Ca Putt]

with some germanic archers. ah the crappiest of the archers yet in the campaign probably the most effective :DDD

Celts do have rather low morale compered to Sweboz when similar looking units face each other, yet Sweboz units have pretty high moral overall(probably do to what athanaic said) the advantage of the celts(next to economic advantages of course) (and their Elite units) is their weapon technology, they have a lot more and better swords than the Sweboz and tend to have better armor. in my Sweboz campaign the celts were easy prey until they started useing bataroas as line troops. Dugunthiz are exellent line troops(when no archers around) but those guys just got better choppaz^^. this made them a easy enemy...

[Cute Wolf]

And don't forget about them....
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_slaganz.gif

When the Gauls switch to heavy armoured swordsmen and fancy heavy cavalries, these guys will save your ass... :grin:
I swear in frontal combat, one unit of them could beat one unit of Solduros!!! :thumbsup:

[Unintended BM]

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

[Cute Wolf]

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

1) Did you built Taverns on your home? If yes, don't forget that for some good reasons, More Civilized Celts are prone to had bad vices (and yes, morale reducing) vices from Taverns..... where the Sweboz got insane and get Berserkergang, Biting Shields, and much morale improving vices... :grin:
2) Made sure the Sweboz army didn't have naked guys in black...
3) Train your own naked guys... they improve the morale of your men (the Uirodusios)

[Unintended BM]

I didn't know Sweboz FMs get good traits from taverns. I just assumed everyone got bad traits from them. I usually get rid of them, but I'll keep that in mind for my Sweboz game.

Those black naked guys are crazy. I'll probably end up spamming a lot of naked dudes in my Arverni game.

[Megas Methuselah]

Those black naked guys are crazy. I'll probably end up spamming a lot of naked dudes in my Arverni game.

Sure, but don't come back complaining about low Roman morale after you sack Rome with your porno army. :clown:

Srsly, the naked Gallic buggers are crazy.

[Unintended BM]

Yeah, I always have huge trouble taking Segesta and the other northern Italian town with the naked dudes on my Roman games, I can only imagine how great they'd be elsewhere. I've used the galatian variant before, but I can only imagine how easy the game would get if I could constantly recruit and retrain them.

[Duguntz]

And if you really want ZE unit for Sweboz : Worgozez. pitty they're only merc, but they seriously will refuse to die even in front of the stubbornest ennemy! I used them extensively in my sweboz campain... and I ate Romans for breakfest with them! I engaged them just a bit later in the battle, to let the time for the moral to go lower a bit for the roman, and uasualy, with their AO axes and their scary attribute, it's a rout on contact! the same with the Black naked dudes

[seienchin]

The problem with gaul armies is that they rarely field any notable cavallery and have lots of levies, which are routing fast and by that reduce the morale of the other troops. Everytime I won against the gauls it was because of a mass rout. Esspecially after the death of the general, which is easier to kill, than the sweboz one.
Its the same with camillan roman armies. Their Triarri are insanly powerfull and never rout, except when you rout their rorarii first...^^

[Duguntz]

but the problem for almost every AI led army is mass rout... even with the grey plague... their phalangitai are unkillable, but kill their general, and surround them fast, and it's almost surely a rout. I don't think it's only a Gaul problem...

[Ca Putt]

yeah but gauls rout before they are surrounded :/
funnily they rout as soon as their charge wears of, exactly like some roman chronits discribe them.^^
and always remember when facing phalangitai: a surrounded Phalangite is a dead Phalangite.

PS: Wargozez: WIN!

[seienchin]

yeah but gauls rout before they are surrounded :/
funnily they rout as soon as their charge wears of, exactly like some roman chronits discribe them.^^
and always remember when facing phalangitai: a surrounded Phalangite is a dead Phalangite.

PS: Wargozez: WIN!
Exactly. Simply fighting the gaul levies lets them rout. But I have the feeling its the same for the roman levies, but not for most other factions. Phalangitai never rout, when only enganged at the front and so do the sweboz and lusotann.

[Duguntz]

Well, why complaining about the likelyness of a Gaul rout? the guy's playing as Sweboz, i think it's great! so you need one scary unit to rout the army and one unit of light cav... to play in the routing mass after it! don't complain! you'll see, late in the game when you'll face Maks (if they come up, like they did to me) against phalangitai, now the real sport begin! or when you take the territory near the sauromate, and they decide they want it also... it's scary the casualities them nomad inflict on our disarmoured units... so if you want real sport, wait before expanding, and you'll see that rout is something that happens less often

[Macilrille]

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

Everybody worries about the Sweboz, as it should be. Historically everybody did.

[Duguntz]

Seconded... yeah, i made a mistake, i told he was playing as sweboz... i just saw that he's playing as Arverni.. Sorry!

[WinsingtonIII]

Seconded... yeah, i made a mistake, i told he was playing as sweboz... i just saw that he's playing as Arverni.. Sorry!

Actually he's playing as both. Originally he was talking about how in his Sweboz game, the Gallic armies routed very quickly. But now he also is playing an Arverni game where he is worried about fighting the Sweboz.

[Duguntz]

haaa... Ok thanks... well, EVERYONE should worry about Sweboz (especially their neighbour!)

[Macilrille]

And themselves, but that is not reflected in RTW except through the nasty rebels (read, best way of getting the leet post-reform Sweboz units, *sends a loaded and experienced diplomat the Rebel Hárjánáz' way*)

[Duguntz]

And themselves, but that is not reflected in RTW except through the nasty rebels (read, best way of getting the leet post-reform Sweboz units, *sends a loaded and experienced diplomat the Rebel Hárjánáz' way*)

True i must say, but in that time, every one had to worry about themself also, as war between petty kingdoms and neighbour territories was frequent, as chieftains tried to extend their sphere of influence...

[Power2the1]

In EB2 the rapid routing of A.I. led Celts will be fixed for levy types, especially in the early era when the warrior society wasn't as exclusive and in the hands of the 'few' as it was in the Later Era. That being said, the levies of the later era will probably not be as powerful as the early era, but the armored chainmail/javelin/lance infantry and cavaly will be professionals in every sense of the word, though I hope to make them a bit smaller in number that ones in the Early Era. So if all comes to be, you'll be facing stronger lower end units in the start, but as time goes on those lower end units loose their 'edge' as the professionals become more specialized, more armored, and focused upon their craft, especially with their infantry and mounted semi-professional fighting vassals and men-at-arms in tow. It will not be the 'walk over' it seems to be in EB1 -- I never see the Celts excell in Europe in the hundreds of campaigns I've played

[Macilrille]

Sounds nice :-D
In my current Roman Campaign the Aedui were doing quite well, having all of Gaul except "Brittany" and Massilia (Greek till the Greeks attacked me and I took it) and reducing the Averni to two settlements in the Alpe Region. Their war with the Sweboz had turned against them after they had pushed forwards to take the northernmost Gawjam, but they held their own against Sweboz and Lussos in Gaul itself. Then they decide for no reason to attack a fort of mine bordering not themselves, but the Averni and I had to punish them. I gave them the two settlements I took and plundered back in exchange for peace, but I fear that they are now broken and will be pushed back by Sweboz and Luso unless I give them lots of money. I am allied to both their enemies so...

I will probably use the Console instead to help them a bit.

[WinsingtonIII]

I gave them the two settlements I took and plundered back in exchange for peace, but I fear that they are now broken and will be pushed back by Sweboz and Luso unless I give them lots of money. I am allied to both their enemies so...

I will probably use the Console instead to help them a bit.


That's the thing about the Gallic factions in EB. It's very possible for either the Aedui or Arverni to come out on top early and take all of Gaul, but the problem is then they tend not to last long in this position because they get squeezed by the Sweboz, Romani, and sometimes the Lusos. I've seen strong Sweboz and Romani empires quite a bit, and there are instances where the Lusotanians go berserk and take the entire west half of Europe, but I don't recall ever seeing a Gallic faction do the same thing. They can hang on for a while with a decent empire in Gaul, but they always seem to come out the underdog in the end. So, it's a good thing that EB2 is working to change this.

[Macilrille]

Well, I think it would have been a stalemate between them all three had he noot foolishly attacked me.

[WinsingtonIII]

Well, I think it would have been a stalemate between them all three had he noot foolishly attacked me.

True, but my personal experience has just generally been that even though the Gauls can hold the Romani, Sweboz, Lusos, etc. to a stalemate for quite a while, I rarely see them actively creating an empire larger than Gaul itself and they eventually tend to get absorbed by the surrounding factions. There are obviously exceptions though.

[Macilrille]

In general I agree, I just like nitpicking. Eventually the Lusos and Sweboz would have shared Gaul.

[Cute Wolf]

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead... :wall:

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

[Vilkku92]

Hey, you forgot about swordsmen! Gauls get swords earlier than germans, and they come in greater numbers.

Too bad AI doesn't use those swordsmen enough, but focus on Lugoae. I mean, Bataroas are one of the few gaul units that are actually match for Swebos infantry, but now they just rout with the rest of the army. Stupid AI!

[seienchin]

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead... :wall:

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....
I thought the germanic cavallery and esspecially the celtic german mixed cavallery are far superior to leuce Epos?

[Duguntz]

They are far superios... the Reidonez are better than Leuce Epos and beats them on every field

[Os-Q]

German and Celto-German cavalry are also more of a skirmisher and "anti-cavalry" unit than the more general-use Leuce Epos (Celto-German cavalry can wipe out Roman bodyguards for example) however, they don't do as well charging against infantry
They're also a bit more expensive

[Power2the1]

The cavalry issue will also remedied (forgot to mention that!). The Celts were a culture with a big focus on horses. When I was redoin the units, I could not understand why they had just 2 horse types (under different names) to be found. Maybe its a RTW limitation on the EDU slots, not sure. However in EB2 you'll have a larger selection of horses and these will do the Celts proud for sure.

On a historical cavalry related note that some of y'all might be interested in, I was reading the archeological discoveries at Alesia, in French, but enough was apparent. There are some interesting horses found there, skeletons of course. Apparently the Gaul had some of the larger breeds that were found outside of the Celtic regions, like found in Italy, Scythia, etc...but bones to those horses were few and far between which denote these were valuable perhaps, and not readily offered up. Next came the Gallic ponies, the small Iron Age breeds that are common and much smaller than modern breeds (yet maintain the stamina and energy of the larger ones, and incredibly disease resistant in comparison to them). Also found were even smaller horses that are found east of the Rhine only, which denote trade with the Germanic, or Celto-Germanics living there. I hope the similar sizes can be used in game. We'll have to see...

I think that some of the stats for EB1 might have been focused on the Gallic War, perhaps. In EB2 Arverni and Aedui will not/shouldnot be at war in the beginning of EB2. That would not have happened until sometime after 121 B.C. I was entertaining an idea that perhaps a script can be written for the Gallic Civil Wars or, well, Inter Tribal warfare (for the politically correct out there) to occur under certain situations, say both of them have 'x' number of provinces or something...

[kekailoa]

The Gauls should be made a proper use of their Leuce Epos and Sweboz will be a piece of cake...
Too bad, the AI are so stubborn and choose to field 2 units of lugoae instead... :wall:

Seriously guys, the only department that Celts outshine sweboz (sightly, Sweboz reigns supreme in the North), are cavalry....

I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce, while the top-tier armored units like the Carnutes, the Solduri, and the Arverni Arjos are clearly superior to the Sweboz top-tier and line units, not to mention the Gaestae. Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a dsiadvantage to the Gauls obviously. Why the Sweboz are so dominant over the Gauls is that they can produce better-quality cheaper troops, and also obviously produce better spearmen and lower-end units. The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints, but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

[athanaric]

The cavalry issue will also remedied (forgot to mention that!). The Celts were a culture with a big focus on horses. When I was redoin the units, I could not understand why they had just 2 horse types (under different names) to be found. Maybe its a RTW limitation on the EDU slots, not sure. However in EB2 you'll have a larger selection of horses and these will do the Celts proud for sure.
Sounds like the Gauls will change a lot.



On a historical cavalry related note that some of y'all might be interested in, I was reading the archeological discoveries at Alesia, in French, but enough was apparent. There are some interesting horses found there, skeletons of course. Apparently the Gaul had some of the larger breeds that were found outside of the Celtic regions, like found in Italy, Scythia, etc...but bones to those horses were few and far between which denote these were valuable perhaps, and not readily offered up. Next came the Gallic ponies, the small Iron Age breeds that are common and much smaller than modern breeds (yet maintain the stamina and energy of the larger ones, and incredibly disease resistant in comparison to them). Also found were even smaller horses that are found east of the Rhine only, which denote trade with the Germanic, or Celto-Germanics living there. I hope the similar sizes can be used in game. We'll have to see...
All Under Heaven features Steppe "Ponies", maybe you guys can share them?
https://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6351/alixi06.png


On the cavalry comparison - time for some facts. With all reforms having kicked in, Gauls and Germans in EB I are about equal when it comes to cavalry.

;69
type germanic cavalry ridoharjoz
dictionary germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz ; Ridanz
category cavalry
class light
voice_type General_1
soldier germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz_komataihippeis, 25, 0, 1
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount light horse
mount_effect elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy, cantabrian_circle
formation 1.8, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 8, 27, javelin, 31.5, 4, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr thrown
stat_sec 9, 27, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.15
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental 13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2745, 686, 60, 80, 2745
ownership germans, slave, romans_julii, saba, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii

;496
type germanic cavalry marhathegnoz
dictionary germanic_cavalry_marhathegnoz ; Marhathegnoz
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_cavalry_brihentin_remimairepos_lavotuxri_marhathegnoz, 25, 0, 1
mount medium horse
mount_effect elephant -4, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, siege, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 12, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 11, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, 0
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 4034, 1009, 95, 444, 4034
ownership germans


;58
type celtic skirmisher cavalry leuce epos
dictionary celtic_skirmisher_cavalry_leuce_epos ; Leuce Epos
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_cavalry_leuceepos_equitesgallovrum, 25, 0, 1
mount medium horse
mount_effect elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation 2, 4, 4, 6, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 4, 30, javelin, 55, 8, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr thrown
stat_sec 3, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 5, 11, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental 11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1983, 496, 40, 60, 1983
ownership gauls, scythia, slave, britons, germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba

;17
type celtic cavalry brihentin
dictionary celtic_cavalry_brihentin ; Brihentin
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_cavalry_brihentin_remimairepos_lavotuxri_marhathegnoz, 25, 0, 1
officer ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -4, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 4, 30, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.33
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 9, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 9, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental 13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 3100, 775, 95, 444, 3100
ownership gauls, scythia, britons, slave, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, spain, seleucid, saba, pontus, armenia
Suebi cavalry units are a little stronger in melee than the standard Gallic ones, but Gauls have acccess to Belgae cavalry.

[Cute Wolf]

Hey, you forgot about swordsmen! Gauls get swords earlier than germans, and they come in greater numbers.

Too bad AI doesn't use those swordsmen enough, but focus on Lugoae. I mean, Bataroas are one of the few gaul units that are actually match for Swebos infantry, but now they just rout with the rest of the army. Stupid AI!

Um.... maybe I forgot about it.... BTW, Germanic heavy infantry also available as mercs, so talking about wider and easier to get....
BTW, Sweboz got bigger swords (marshikoi Lugii), the only celts that outshine them are Kluddargos, and they are only in Brits.... BTW, talking about the hyper insanity Gaesatae.... I think I really forgot to mention it... sorry.... (because most of the time, my Medikikas allready take care the most of them)


German and Celto-German cavalry are also more of a skirmisher and "anti-cavalry" unit than the more general-use Leuce Epos (Celto-German cavalry can wipe out Roman bodyguards for example) however, they don't do as well charging against infantry
They're also a bit more expensive

Talking about cost-effectiveness, not per unit power, Gallic cavalry wins..... Reidonez is good at melee too, but they can't really hurt in a single charge (where the leuce epos can), and don't forget, the Brihentin are quite cheaper than their germanic counterparts... not talking about Remi Mairepos and their Gallic cavalry general...


I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce, while the top-tier armored units like the Carnutes, the Solduri, and the Arverni Arjos are clearly superior to the Sweboz top-tier and line units, not to mention the Gaestae. Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a dsiadvantage to the Gauls obviously. Why the Sweboz are so dominant over the Gauls is that they can produce better-quality cheaper troops, and also obviously produce better spearmen and lower-end units. The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints, but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.

Yeah.... Sweboz units are really bang for the bucks... if you try to use the Gallic Swordsmen everywhere in early-mid campaign, your economy will simply broke up....

[athanaric]

I disagree completely. The Sweboz outshine the Gauls in regular line troops to a certain extent, but not by very much. The Northern Gallic swordsmen can stand up to any line unit the Sweboz produce,
The standard Germanic swordsmen are significantly better in terms of quality, they just suffer from smaller unit size and poor javelin range.
Compare:

;66
type celtic infantry bataroas
dictionary celtic_infantry_bataroas ; Bataroas
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier celtic_infantry_bataroas_northerncuroas, 50, 0, 1.1
officer ebofficer_celtic_officer
officer ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -2, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 8, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 10, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1503, 376, 196, 374, 1503
ownership gauls, scythia, slave

;73
type germanic infantry sahsnotoz
dictionary germanic_infantry_sahsnotoz ; Herunautoz
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier germanic_infantry_sahsnotoz_pictones_cherusciiswordsmen, 40, 0, 1.15
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation 0.85, 1.2, 1.4, 2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 7, 8, javelin, 30, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 13, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental 13, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1646, 412, 50, 70, 1646
ownership germans, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, dacia, parthia, armenia, pontus, seleucid, saba


The Gauls have the ability to produce better troops, but economic restraints and AI stupidity tend to hold them back. The Sweboz have the same AI stupidity and economic restraints,

Gallic economy/infrastructure is way better than Swêboz economy. Paved roads, univerities, better farms, hero tombs, for starters (Gallic economy is almost equal to that of Hayasdan).



but the cheap units that they produce are superior to the cheap Gallic units.
That's true.



Cavalry-wise, the sweboz are at a disadvantage to the Gauls obviously.
No.
See my post above.



and don't forget, the Brihentin are quite cheaper than their germanic counterparts
And weaker, accordingly.



not talking about Remi Mairepos
As expensive and strong as the Germanic guys.



if you try to use the Gallic Swordsmen everywhere in early-mid campaign, your economy will simply broke up....
Besides, it wouldn't be very realistic.

[Duguntz]

not agree. On a 1 to 1 basis, the clubman of sweboz (wich is a medium unit) eat the Solduri for breakfest! not only, on my own experiance, I kill the Mighty Katas with those clubmen. I mean, Sweboz clearly outshine celts on a unit level. you speak about economics? common, celts have ZE best economics of all northen cultures, while the Sweboz struggle and still winn over numericly superior celt opponant. why? because their units are better!

[Macilrille]

Which is the fun and "barbaric" part of playing the Sweboz; your economy sucks, you cannot build proper cities and have no stone building- but lots of wood in your forests. But your hardy, warlike and savage people will flock to their warlord's banner to pour out of the north and plunder the weak Wolhoz and Rumi, carrying home a rich booty of trophies, riches, women and slaves, for you may not be able to build cities, but you can take them...

The Gallic elite units are fine, unfortunately the AI does not build them, while the elite German Ferulharjoz should be very expensive, since they were rare. I could never build them anyway. Perhaps the Solduros and Carnutes should be less expensive.

[Cute Wolf]

*thinking about made a submod that tweak the economy and unit cost somewhat*

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Actually I noticed that the gallic factions do produce a fair amount of Solduros at least. Their main issue is that they recruit too many Lugoae and fight amongst each other and the Romans too much to be competative once the Sweboz arrive. In the games where Carthage attacks Rome early, the Aedui usually maintain a solid hold on most of Gaul.

[Ca Putt]

Gauls may sometimes withstand their neighbors but I've never seen them really powerfull with more than Gaul and maybe the Boii regions or Galatia. whereas I often see them field Bataroas and the better spearmen i've just forgot the name of next to Solduros and Neietos still those lugoae are a weak point that makes it easy to rout the whole army

[athanaric]

whereas I often see them field Bataroas and the better spearmen i've just forgot the name of next to Solduros and Neitos still those Lugoae are a weak point that makes it easy to rout the whole army
You mean Gaelaiche. The good thing is that by the Time of Soldiers reform, they lose Lugoae, forcing them to recruit the much more useful Gaelaiche instead. The bad thing is that by that time they are too weakened from internal strife and the Romans, Lusotannan, and Swêboz eat them alive.

Actually, the main problem with RTW.exe are the Lusotannan. Once they've kicked out Carthage, they rule supreme over a very rich area, with nobody threatening their back. I frequently see them gobble up Gaul and Rome, which is not amusing at all (I'd much rather see the boring old Romans or the Suebi become an empire, because that's more historically accurate (and coupled with a nicer factional colour. On the minimap, the Lusos holding all of Europe looks like a scenario of WW2 where the bad guys won).

[Kival]

In my campaigns Lusotannan are not that strong. Maybe it's because of the -4 attack reduction for light spear units in my EDU.

[Duguntz]

yeah, on my sweboz Campaing, I don't expand before the 220BC (for the fun and challenge to see real roman... if sweboz go toward rome early on... to take Barbaropolis is as hars as picking flowers in a wood walk) but still keep strong frontiers, so as they can't expand eastward, the Aedui went to knock on the door of lusos... they fare pretty well and lusos loose ground... in fact, only once have I seen lusos really strong. usualy, they're strong but Cartage hold fast to her northen border of the empire, and it seems the Lusos can't do sh** about it...


On the minimap, the Lusos holding all of Europe looks like a scenario of WW2 where the bad guys won).

LOL good one! Make me think about the table game axis and allies!

[TancredTheNorman]

My Gauls are great against Sweboz, the combination of slingers, armor, javelins, and deciding to lure them into unwinable sieges can be devastating to Sweboz armies, especially when so many of them are Germanic Archers and unarmored spearmen.

The clubmen used once in awhile are never a match for slingers. The best part about slingers is they are also almost all virtually the same, but they don't all come with the same price tag.

[athanaric]

The best part about slingers is they are also almost all virtually the same, but they don't all come with the same price tag.
Um, no. There are significant differences in range, attack, ammo, and protection. Even knife lethality (Balearics 0.11 > Gauls/Dacians 0.1 > all others 0.04) The Gallic dudes are very efficient, though - their mediocre range notwithstanding.
If you want to truly devastate the enemy, you can hire some Balearic slingers. They have slightly better range and the highest attack of all slingers, as well as the best melee weapon (AP!). Only their protection (1/9/1) and ammo (20) are inferior to those of the Iaosatae (who have 35 pebbles, which is the biggest amount of ammo for any slinger unit).

[NikosMaximilian]

Um, no. There are significant differences in range, attack, ammo, and protection. Even knife lethality (Balearics 0.11 > Gauls/Dacians 0.1 > all others 0.04) The Gallic dudes are very efficient, though - their mediocre range notwithstanding.
If you want to truly devastate the enemy, you can hire some Balearic slingers. They have slightly better range and the highest attack of all slingers, as well as the best melee weapon (AP!). Only their protection (1/9/1) and ammo (20) are inferior to those of the Iaosatae (who have 35 pebbles, which is the biggest amount of ammo for any slinger unit).

What about Rhodian slingers? They are pretty good, specially when heading east to fight armoured infantry/cavalry, and have some armour against missile attacks. The only problem is that they can only be recruited in Rhodes.

[WinsingtonIII]

What about Rhodian slingers? They are pretty good, specially when heading east to fight armoured infantry/cavalry, and have some armour against missile attacks. The only problem is that they can only be recruited in Rhodes.

The main strength of Rhodian Slingers is their range. They can shoot a stone 195 meters, which is almost as much as the range of Skythian Foot Archers. Balearic's do more damage with their stones, but their range is less, about 175 meters. I would argue overall Rhodians are better though, as they also carry 30 stones instead of only 20. Given their range, relatively high stone attack, and ammo amount, Rhodians are probably the best slingers in the game, unless I'm forgetting another elite slinger unit.

[Macilrille]

One slinger (preferably Rhodian) and two Toxotai Kretakoi, two- three cavalry and the rest nice and heavy legionairres + allies; oh yes!

[athanaric]

The main strength of Rhodian Slingers is their range. They can shoot a stone 195 meters, which is almost as much as the range of Skythian Foot Archers. Balearics do more damage with their stones, but their range is less, about 175 meters. I would argue overall Rhodians are better though, as they also carry 30 stones instead of only 20. Given their range, relatively high stone attack, and ammo amount, Rhodians are probably the best slingers in the game, unless I'm forgetting another elite slinger unit.
I agree with you. The only drawback of Rhodians (besides not being available as mercs) is their nigh-useless melee weapon. They fit my personal military doctrine best (high range and armour first).
Balearic Slingers carry a higher price tag, which is justified by higher attack, far better melee capabilities (def skill 9 as opposed to 6; much better lethality; AP attribute), and the best morale of all slingers. Still, their armour and shield (1 each) are piss poor compared to Rhodians. They are an elite equivalent of the Caucasian Archers - an all-out attack unit with decent (but not outstanding) range, but poor protection.

The best run-of-the-mill slingers are the Sphendonetai/Persians (same unit with different names and skins), followed by the Celtic guys.

[Apázlinemjó]

The Gaul factions are pretty much better than Sweboz in MP battles. The cheap Neitos, slingers and naked dudes can easily bash through any German line easily in my experience.

[Unintended BM]

Celtic slingers are great, I always use a few of those. But really, all slingers are useful, unlike some archers. Most regions with crappy archers aren't far from an area where you can get Cretan Archers, so what's the point in even using the crappy ones? All slingers are great though.

[vartan]

Celtic slingers are great, I always use a few of those. But really, all slingers are useful, unlike some archers. Most regions with crappy archers aren't far from an area where you can get Cretan Archers, so what's the point in even using the crappy ones? All slingers are great though.
You can hire many toxotai for the money it takes to hire a few toxotai kretikoi. Take the initiative in the battle; don't let the battle come to you, but rather take the battle to your opposition. In close range, your numerous archers will prove that their blood was worth something.

[WinsingtonIII]

You can hire many toxotai for the money it takes to hire a few toxotai kretikoi. Take the initiative in the battle; don't let the battle come to you, but rather take the battle to your opposition. In close range, your numerous archers will prove that their blood was worth something.

But if you're in an area where you can hire tons of toxotai, you might as well just hire tons of sphendonetai. They only have 1 less missile attack than toxotai, their range is significantly longer than toxotai, and their attack is of course armor piercing. Plus, they carry twice as much ammunition as toxotai, and toxotai only have a unit number equal to slingers anyways.

In my personal campaign experiences, sphendonetai are consistently more useful than toxotai, and judging by the stats, it makes a lot of sense. The only situation where massed toxotai might be more effective than massed sphendonetai is if the enemy brought only unarmored troops, and even then I'm not so sure, because the difference in attack is pretty marginal and may be outweighed by the range and ammo differences.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Depends on whether you use slingers historically. I.e. putting them right out in front of the army, or right out on the wings for enfilading fire. (Where they are vulnerable both to enemy missiles and to enemy cavalry charges.)

(The Romans, to be different, had the Accensi right at the rear of the army, where in actuality they wouldn't see any action in a normal battle that was going well for the Roman side - they were a reserve to help the Triarii in case everything went pear-shaped and the rest of the army ran away.)

Archers have one advantage over slingers - you can put them behind your army, and they can safely fire over the heads of a protective line of infantry in front of them.

IMO, in EB, losses from slinger 'friendly fire' if they shoot from behind a friendly unit should be MUCH higher - since that would be downright dangerous if you did it in real life, telling slingers to aim over the heads of friendly men in front of them! So firing with slingers placed behind a friendly unit is an 'exploit', IMO.

[vartan]

Not just that Stu. The toxotai can use flaming arrows to demoralize enemy units. The best option would be to combine and have both slingers as well as archers in one's army. We already know slingers pierce armour and flaming arrows demoralize enemy troops.

EDIT: Scato mentioned one critical thing and that is how archers can be positioned behind your own troops as their trajectory is higher than slinger trajectory.

[WinsingtonIII]

Not just that Stu. The toxotai can use flaming arrows to demoralize enemy units. The best option would be to combine and have both slingers as well as archers in one's army. We already know slingers pierce armour and flaming arrows demoralize enemy troops.

EDIT: Scato mentioned one critical thing and that is how archers can be positioned behind your own troops as their trajectory is higher than slinger trajectory.

I usually try and have both slingers and archers, however, I almost never use toxotai, if I'm campaigning in Hellas I'll just recruit merc Kretans, and everywhere else that has toxotai available generally has a better alternative nearby (Skythians, Syrians, Persians, etc. are all near/in areas where toxotai are recruitable). Truth be told I only use flaming arrows very rarely anyways, so I tend to see sphendonetai as all around more useful than toxotai for me personally, but obviously, others may have different tactics.

Scato, that is a good point about friendly fire, I didn't really think about how the game allows that. I'll admit I do generally take advantage of that exploit, usually without really thinking about it.

[A Very Super Market]

Toxotai happen to be a truly terrible archer unit, especially when you take their recruitment area into consideration. To the East lies vast expense of Asia, filled with all sorts of nasty characters with terrifyingly powerful weapons. To the North are the massive forests which reduce their effectiveness to nil. The only faction they can stand toe to toe with are the Romans, who don't even have their own archers. Truly a sad, sad existance.

Arrows will still cause plenty of friendly fire if they're too close to the melee. But slingers fire their bullets at a nearly flat trajectory regardless of distance, so there is no alternative.

[vartan]

Throw at me all the slingers you have. You shall have no room to talk once your slingers are lying on the ground because they have been shot down by arrows. They are for winning the missile fight and overall against barely armoured units. (Note: When it comes to units, among other aspects of the game, 99 percent of my brain is thinking from a multiplayer point of view, so you'll have to excuse me.)

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Truth be told I only use flaming arrows very rarely anyways

To be historical, my house rule is that I only use flaming arrows when I'm defending. When you're defending a fixed position, and the archers just wait for the enemy to come into range, the fires (braziers, hot coals, or trench filled with burning oil) that they need to light their arrows are right there, just where they want them. But the archers couldn't realistically run around carrying those fires around with them. So if the archers move position, I imagine they move away from their fires and therefore they can't fire flaming arrows anymore.

Simply put, I roleplay that archers can only fire flaming arrows as long as they don't move after the battle starts.

[Cute Wolf]

To be historical, my house rule is that I only use flaming arrows when I'm defending. When you're defending a fixed position, and the archers just wait for the enemy to come into range, the fires (braziers, hot coals, or trench filled with burning oil) that they need to light their arrows are right there, just where they want them. But the archers couldn't realistically run around carrying those fires around with them. So if the archers move position, I imagine they move away from their fires and therefore they can't fire flaming arrows anymore.

Simply put, I roleplay that archers can only fire flaming arrows as long as they don't move after the battle starts.

Interesting aspect of roleplaying..... :idea: :thumbsup:
Well, did they don't have matches at that time?

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Interesting aspect of roleplaying..... :idea: :thumbsup:
Well, did they don't have matches at that time?

Nope, no matches. They had flaming torches, but you can't hold a lighted torch and fire a bow at the same time, so the archers would need a slave to carry the torch. You'd probably need one torchbearer for every 4 archers.

[vartan]

Simply put, I roleplay that archers can only fire flaming arrows as long as they don't move after the battle starts.
There are many things EB's MP veterans would be upset about if they saw it occur in battle, but going around using flaming arrows wouldn't be one of them. It would be just fine!

[WinsingtonIII]

Throw at me all the slingers you have. You shall have no room to talk once your slingers are lying on the ground because they have been shot down by arrows. They are for winning the missile fight and overall against barely armoured units. (Note: When it comes to units, among other aspects of the game, 99 percent of my brain is thinking from a multiplayer point of view, so you'll have to excuse me.)

I'm pretty sure sphendonetai can defeat toxotai in a missile duel...

Most archers will certainly defeat most slingers in a missle duel, but I'm saying that sphendonetai specifically are better than toxotai specifically, and I stand by that statement, because toxotai are terrible.

[Duguntz]

There are many things EB's MP veterans would be upset about if they saw it occur in battle, but going around using flaming arrows wouldn't be one of them. It would be just fine!

Those are really, people used to win every single battle in campaing and then frustrating when they see that a player outsmart them! I mean... to say that clicking benind a phalanx to make your units run threw is cheating, ok (though i've some issue with that one too) but to say that fire missile is treachin... I mean common, what's the next step? soon we'll hear... Ha no, you cannot use heavy infantry against my Legions, it's cheating. Fire arrows is a ''special ability'' and ought to bu used wherever and whenever the player wants. If it dosen't make sens for some of u, well, use your imagination and imagine there's 1 slave per 5 archer carrying touch and that's it... The hell with cheating dad gummit

[Kival]

Those are really, people used to win every single battle in campaing and then frustrating when they see that a player outsmart them! I mean... to say that clicking benind a phalanx to make your units run threw is cheating, ok (though i've some issue with that one too) but to say that fire missile is treachin... I mean common, what's the next step? soon we'll hear... Ha no, you cannot use heavy infantry against my Legions, it's cheating. Fire arrows is a ''special ability'' and ought to bu used wherever and whenever the player wants. If it dosen't make sens for some of u, well, use your imagination and imagine there's 1 slave per 5 archer carrying touch and that's it... The hell with cheating dad gummit


I'm relativley sure Vartan told us to use flaming arrows is no problem in multiplayer ;-).

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah. The barb charging tactics we use involve 1 unit with fire arrows.

If we were to complain about anything it would be that fear penalties don't rely on numbers so 1 set of flaming arrows or 1 unit of Gaesatae scares pretty much all units in a certain radius that is about 1/2 your main line.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I'm not saying it's cheating to use flaming arrows. Just that I like to roleplay these things, some people don't, that's fine. Each to their own.

My understanding of fire arrows is that their use was relatively rare - it was much more common for archers to fire an ordinary arrow than a flaming one. Otherwise accounts of ancient battles involving archers would nearly always include descriptions of flaming arrows streaking across the sky. If it was easy to fire flaming arrows, you'd want to use them most of the time because they are scary, and demoralise poorly-disciplined enemy troops. But relatively few accounts of ancient battles specify that flaming arrows were used, so I assume that they were relatively rarely used because using them was not easy for some reason, and firing ordinary arrows is much easier and faster.

My houserule just enables me to keep my use of fire arrows to a minimum, and not use them all the time to scare the AI troops and give me easy victories.

[Kival]

Yeah. The barb charging tactics we use involve 1 unit with fire arrows.

If we were to complain about anything it would be that fear penalties don't rely on numbers so 1 set of flaming arrows or 1 unit of Gaesatae scares pretty much all units in a certain radius that is about 1/2 your main line.

So it does not make sence to use more than one scaring unit in your army?

[Duguntz]

It does make sens to use more than one, if you fight on a large area. keep them far from missile though! in general i use 2 scary units in ambush... in the heat of battle when moral is depleted on both side, i spring those fear units... in general, the ennemy rout... one at each end of the battle line... plus a xtrong center as i don't know if those in the center are affected by the ''fear radius''.

And for my older post, yeah, I tought Vartan was speaking about those who'd think it's cheating to use flamming arrows... it's my mistake, sorry!

[vartan]

So it does not make sence to use more than one scaring unit in your army?
Save it for the visitor message page Duguntz. And Kival it doesn't make sense* unless you realize that no unit is unstoppable. If your scary unit routs, what scary units have you left?

[Kival]

(...)make sense*

Ups. Thanks, I make that mistake far to often... Nonetheless, it is a good idea to have some additional fear unit in your backhand but i did want to know if you get a bonus for more than one unit at the same moment.

[Unintended BM]

On my newest Roman campaign, the Gauls still rout really quickly, but it's nearly impossible to get low casualties. They don't fight for long, but they do some damage for the short time they fight.

[Macilrille]

Try Guard Mode on until the time to charge and break them. Check my Sweboz guide for the specifics. It cab easily be modified to apply for Romans as well.

[Geticus]

An interesting discussion on something I have thought about a lot, the Gauls vs. Sweboz thing. When playing EB I played Eurobarbs exclusively, mainly Arverni/Aedui, Sweboz and Getai but also the Britons as well. Having played all multiple times on regular RTW.exe at Vh campaign/Hard battle difficulty, and completing the campaigns for all factions multiple times I have observed the following about their relative strengths.

With respect to morale just about any army without a good general will route, especially on normal battle difficulty. The computer's tactics are sloppy, move a couple troops and the AI will shift much or all of the army around tiring out the troops, leading to easy stamina loss. The computer makes little use of terrain, so seizing high locations and skirmishing competently with missile troops (iaosatae are ideal IMO west of Cretan merc territory, more cost effective than Medininkas in skirmishing) leads to reliable wins against the typical Eurobarb infantry spam armies. Iaosatae have the advantage of being fast moving, which enables them to run back and forth and outmaneuver tired opponents fairly consistently so, used competently the Celt slingers give one major advantage against Sweboz. Aside from skirmishing the main point of EB is to hit opponent on flank and/or rear, especially when they are tired, to create chainroutes and I find all troops to be effective at this, the main thing is being skilled enough with the user interface to micromanage troops a bit on the flank, that done just about any troop will do, from the standard troop of the line Bataroas/Botroas/Dugunthiz/Clubman on up to high lethality cavalry charges, the stab in the back works almost regardless of who performs it as long as the enemy is somewhat tired, and the general is either absent, or killed. So if the original poster switched and played a Celtic faction against Sweboz, I think he would find them easy to route also. Playing Celts on Vh/H I routinely route and massacre Sweboz infantry hordes with ease by out skirmishing with the superior range slingers, and then routing a flank with leuke epos javelin showers and charges. The only difficulty there ever is in routing Sweboz is if they hide in woods or if they have a strong general, in which case route/destroy their cavalry and tire out the Sweboz warlord from the front and lance him in the back.

Overall having used all Eurobarb cavalry as well as celt chariots I say that for cost effectiveness the Gallic leuke epos is the best cavalry around when used competently. They are relatively cheap, fairly easy to recruit as a levy or a merc, they have Very Good stamina, they have 6 javelins with 55 range as opposed to 4 short range for the Sweboz ridonez, Leuke epos shift directions very quickly which is very important in high micromanaged skirmishing, and they have the high lethality AP melee attack. Due to the glitch that AP lancers/chargers retain AP high lethality in prolonged melee combat, this enables Leuke epos to outperform Ridonez in hand to hand, simply because AP 0.30 lethality >>> 0.15 no AP. Its that simple and believe me I wanted to like Sweboz light cavalry, but it was only with reluctance and much gameplay that I realized how dominant and more cost effective the Leuke epos is when micromanaged skillfully on the flanks.

I see people praising Wargozes and Gaesatae and naked fanatic spearmen due to their fear effect, and I have played with all but believe me when the enemy is starting to tire just about any charge or missile shower on the flank/rear is sufficient to start a route, fear is nice but not necessary, the main thing is cause casualties and hit the flank. On hard battle the AI troops have big morale bonuses, especially when a general is present, and while fear is often effective at starting a chainroute, I always think about the high cost of gaesatae and wargozes/naked fanatic spearmen. Leuke epos at about 490 gold upkeep can routinely route the enemy cavalry with jav/skirmishing and AP charges, and then mop up the flank/rear of the enemy battle line with AP charges and have stamina to spare to ride down the enemy troops. Playing huge army size I have used Gallic light cav to get upwards of 1,000 kills in so many battles that it becomes routine and German light cav, with inferior stamina and weaker charges/fewer javelins and no AP charge simply are inferior to Leuke epos bottom line. I have played both extensively and with high micro skills the Leuke epos tends to rack up crazy chevrons and insane kill totals, Sweboz armies always fall with little effort to slinger skirmishing and light cavalry dominance way before the Sweboz can recruit heavy cav.

So while the Sweboz have the advantage in cheap troops with the 4 chevron Jugunthiz skirmishers and Chatti clubmen spam, the Gauls have a major edge in quality, from high armor Neitos/Arjos and superior light cavalry and the uber Gaesatae. One might also mention the Virodusios naked spearmen which is the cheapest fear/morale boost in the game, great at bolstering a line. So while the Sweboz have excellent cheap levies, the Gauls have the edge in quality. I might also mention the overrated Germanic warlord elite infantry, they are pretty good but side by side with Celtic lesser kings on Hard battle difficulty, I found that the Celt lesser kings outperformed my Sweboz warlords simply because of their large shields/superior armor gave them greater survivability against the ubiquitous javelin volleys. So people who adore German warlords should play Gauls, and try out a battle line of 5 or 6 units of Neitos heavy swordsmen flanked by Helvetian phalanx, the reality is that the Sweboz have great lethality across the board with the Heavenly Pillar of Tyr and 3/4 chevron levies, but due to their low armor they go down in droves to long range missiles (read sling bullets) and their cavalry is overpriced and underpowered and not even a match for leuke epos one on one due to the latter's greater javelin range and missile count, superior stamina, and AP high lethality spears.

So having pretty well mastered both factions, my advice is that if you want to crush the world with the Sweboz, forget about their cruddy low ammo archers and their overpriced no AP low lethality light cavalry, just build a T3 government and a temple of Tyr in a Celto-germanic city, and levy 4 chevron "Celto-Germanic" Leuke epos and slingers from the Celto-germanic cities to complement the Sweboz skirmisher/clubmen/spearmen hordes. With a T3 government its very easy to levy them at 3 or 4 chevrons, and 4 chevron slingers are far more lethal than Germanic archers, and much cheaper than Medjininkas, and Leuke epos is the most cost effective cavalry in north Europe bar none and at 4 chevrons they pretty well dominate any non-HA cavalry Europe has to offer.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Good post, Geticus!

I have to impose house rules on myself to stop winning battles so easily on medium battle difficulty. In a half-stack army of 10 units, I permit myself to have only one unit of slingers and only one unit of skirmisher light cavalry. This stops them dominating the battlefield - they can soften up the enemy, but the main part of the work still has to be done by line infantry, swordsmen and spearmen. My main use for slingers is as town garrisons - they are only allowed out to fight nearly rebels.

[Trax]

About the flaming arrows.

I only use them when defending in sieges.
Flaming arrows in field battles is IMHO just another vanilla absurdity.
Only slightly less silly than flaming pigs.

Certainly not something to use when playing a realism mod.

[vartan]

About the flaming arrows.

I only use them when defending in sieges.
Flaming arrows in field battles is IMHO just another vanilla absurdity.
Only slightly less silly than flaming pigs.

Certainly not something to use when playing a realism mod.
Precisely. It's just one more of those things one considers when writing up a set of boundaries in a tournament. I don't think it was considered last year, but it could be barred from use if people come to a consensus.

[Geticus]

Good post, Geticus!

I have to impose house rules on myself to stop winning battles so easily on medium battle difficulty. In a half-stack army of 10 units, I permit myself to have only one unit of slingers and only one unit of skirmisher light cavalry. This stops them dominating the battlefield - they can soften up the enemy, but the main part of the work still has to be done by line infantry, swordsmen and spearmen. My main use for slingers is as town garrisons - they are only allowed out to fight nearly rebels.

Yeah I hear you, I suppose it depends on how you want to play. I like infantry slugfests but I find cavalry dominance to be very satisfying , and I think that ancient warfare tended to work that way at the higher level-- Assyrians and Egyptians were chariot dominant, Alexander raised Hellenic warfare to the next level with elite cavalry charge power, and Hannibal's supremacy in the field over the Romans was based on strategic mastery all around but above all IMO on cavalry superiority over the declining and increasingly mercantile Roman equestrian class. Numidian light cav played a big part. But beyond I suppose it's just the way my Gallic style developed, I originally wasn't interested in Leuke epos due to their low stats, but used them just to have some cavalry to mop up fleeing enemies. But eventually I ran two or three on one flank and started micromanaging the cavalry wing and found that their skirmish first-charge later worked real well at slowing down the enemy approach, it's a kind of missile trap with sling bullet rain from the front and light cavalry javelins from the flank and back, turn to face the Leuke epos and the slingers eat you alive, continue charging the slingers and my light cav shoot you down in the back, which is where the speed, maneuverability and missile count of the Leuke epos wins out. The other thing is to be able to "devour" isolated opponent troops by simultaneously charging them from 2 or 3 sides at the same time. This is pretty micromanagement intensive but the stakes are huge, because a well timed 2x or 3x cavalry charge can annihilate an enemy cohort in 5 or 6 seconds. Do this a few times on one flank and it leads to an easy win, and I find that AP high lethality chargers with very good stamina are the best at it, and Leuke epos are the kings in Europe. In fact I have done many battles, especially siege defenses, where I lead out an FM + 2 or 3 leuke epos against a Sweboz horde (2 or 3 thousand+ with no FM, lots of low tier levies, the usual Rhineland Sweboz spam) and wipe them all out by getting uphill of them, routing their cavalry (if any), charge/routing the archers whenever possible, and javelin skirmishing the infantry masses so that they are a little dispersed and tired, and devouring one isolated troop after another with 3 way triangular charges led by the FM with Leuke epos hitting flanks/rear. The morale loss from troops routing becomes contagious and the FM keeps trampling through one troop into the next and the Leuke Epos keep dive bombing the flanks, any tired infantry that come up to help out in the routezone get morale loss contagion and route pretty quick from FM contact and leuke epos flank/rear charge. At the end of the battle there are 2 or 3 thousand plus casualties all by cavalry since I don't have the patience to draw out the swordsmen and slingers against mostly low grade spam infantry. All this is just a lesser version of proper steppe tactics and in reality the kings of cavalry warfare IMO are Sarmatian warlords and Roxolani riders, but they are out on the steppes and their economy and infantry suck, so I find that Gauls have a good combination off all- decent heavy cav, good light cav, good economy, high lethality durable heavy infantry and cheap long range missile troops. So in Eurobarb warfare I see the Gauls having a small edge over the Sweboz, and if the Aedui/Arverni win the civil war in Gaul quickly and mobilize everything for a blitz on Rome, I see that war between Roma and Gaul as determining the superpower in west Europe. If the Gauls pillage Rome and wipe out the Romans completely by 257 or so I give them a slight edge to hold off the Casse and Sweboz, build supercities in Gaul and get Time of Soldiers by the mid 240s, and overpower all Europe with Neitos-Arjos-Helvetian phalanx-Gaesatae battlelines thereafter.

[vartan]

Geticus if you can consistently pull that off, that is, the flawless intertwining of skirmisher cavalry and missile infantry on the multiplayer battlefield, I'm certain you would find yourself a line of men waiting to battle you! It sounds exciting.

[Unintended BM]

I have an Aedui game going right now. The starting seems way less annoying than the Arveni starting for some reason.

Anyways, good advice, thanks. Those Leuce Epos and Celtic slingers are amazing, I already knew this from my Sweboz and Roman games.

I still think the gaul spearmen suck. I just use them as garrisons, to hold the line and to boost my numbers now, and they seem to work well enough so far against other gauls. Slingers, swordsmen and cavalry really do most of the work in my battles.

[Geticus]

Geticus if you can consistently pull that off, that is, the flawless intertwining of skirmisher cavalry and missile infantry on the multiplayer battlefield, I'm certain you would find yourself a line of men waiting to battle you! It sounds exciting.

Thanks man, I was consistently at that level as of last December when I deleted the game, I played solo EB at a high level last year during a lot of professional downtime due to the depression here in the US, this was my game of choice most of last year until I in my opinion conclusively mastered the high lethality Eurobarb factions (I did not play Lusotannan). Though I am a Roman military historian I couldn't bring myself to play Rome since the Ped. Ex. and Campanian cavalry always bothered me, and the Polybian principes just seemed too damn good, and phalanx warfare on EB always bored me, I only cut phalanxes down, don't play them, so having pretty well played the Britons, Gauls, Sweboz and Getai at full tilt to factional victories a few times I finally quit playing and deleted the game. But EB is IMO the best tactical strategy game I have ever played, I really wonder if anything surpasses it in any genre, there is just so much historical and cultural content, and aesthetic quality, and too much intelligence packed into the game. My problem is that although I am a hardcore wargamer and play at a high level I am not all that computer literate. So I watched a lot of the tournament matches from Hamachi and enjoyed many of the matches but every time I stopped by the groups were full, and the reality is that a lot of people are playing there merely to set Cretans/sagitarii on autofire and the phalanx/hoplites/cohorts in defense mode and watch their opponents tire themselves out rather than proactively step forward and win. Very few of the many Hellenistic faction players actually use sarissa phalanxes offensively to any good effect. But if I pick the game back up I might check in with you or others and see if any one wants to get hewn down by longswords, routed by gaesatae and trodden under Celtic hooves ;) I might add that my slinger/leuke epos sandwich probably wouldn't work very well against Cretan spam and Sagitarii Auxilia, so against those types of MP players a regular infantry assault + flank surround/slaughter style would likely be necessary. If everyone on EB multiplayer played at a high level, that is all the battles would amount to, a big evolving oblique attack dominated by flank micromanagement. Defensive arrays in line would accomplish very little.
But for army micromanagement the main thing for me was that I had a system for hotkeying eurobarb army groupings, which didn't vary too much between Celtic and Getai and Sweboz armies. So I always know what keys are for my left flank infantry, center infantry, right infantry, infantry reserves (if any), left and right cavalry wings (or sometimes light and heavy cav wings) and missile groups. Typically I'd just group all slingers into one mass of three or four at hotkey 7 but sometimes with Sweboz I'd have multiple archer and slinger groups. Getai I'd have horse archers in addition to Elite Dacian/Skythian archers, but IMO as long as one is very systematic in arraying the army and hotkeying groups, then that speeds up complex multivector movements. Aside from that I use a keyboard with a circular gaming keypad on it, and customized the EB tactical controls on it, which was very useful in rapid micromanagement;)
If I pick up the game again I might come around and look you up but right now I have pretty well whooped the gaming bug. I really overplayed EB last year and I hate the CTDs, I only played on huge unit size and had CTDs every 3-4 hours, often during battles in the late game, so though I consider EB to be the elite classical strategy game, I am pretty well burnt out on it.

[Geticus]

I have an Aedui game going right now. The starting seems way less annoying than the Arveni starting for some reason.

Anyways, good advice, thanks. Those Leuce Epos and Celtic slingers are amazing, I already knew this from my Sweboz and Roman games.

I still think the gaul spearmen suck. I just use them as garrisons, to hold the line and to boost my numbers now, and they seem to work well enough so far against other gauls. Slingers, swordsmen and cavalry really do most of the work in my battles.

Yeah using the base levy spearmen in the field is a great way to thin out your population, little more. Some people tout the virtues of Massilian hoplites, but for me the early line consists solely of Northern and Southern Gallic longswordsmen, preferably from Bibracte where the weaponsmithy is, with slingers skirmishing in front and then retreating through the line when the opponent closes, and the cavalry wing. FM typically is the sole reserve, just skirmish and dominate the flank with Leuke epos and/or swordsmen and get 'er done.

[Aodhan]

Personally I have always found leading Gaulic armies in EB to be a somewhat difficult task, and I think that EB has represented reality quite well, their line troops tend to be high damage-low morale mixtures (Northern and Southern Gaulic swordsmen especially) and they tend to excel when led by a good leader but are unreliable under the command of a green general. On the other hand their higher order troops, the solduros and gaesatae are extremely reliable and usually don’t rout unless the commander has horrible leadership skills.

My usual strategy for dealing with this handicap when using green generals against the Sweboz is to insure that there are plenty of slingers around, weaken their line as it approaches and then once they reach javelin range have all of your units open fire simultaneously, the sheer amount of casualties that it causes is staggering and the morale effect is immense, after such an attack a Sweboz battle line tends to rout just as quickly as a Gaulic one (the same tactic works wonders against other Gauls). Later in the game you’ll want to keep a few units of Gaesatae around just to scare your enemies senseless and to provide unparalleled infantry flanking forces, and I usually use Solduros in the center of the line as they are extremely hard to break, although sometimes I use them to insure that a flank holds though the casualties are noticeably higher. The other nifty trick is to hook your light skirmish cavalry around the enemy’s flank and sit behind them throwing javelins into their backs.

Similar tactics are effective against the Romans, though their armour is tougher so the javelins are less effective, your best chance against the Romans is to always have cavalry superiority and plenty of Gaesatae and if your general has high morale bonuses you can defeat just about anyone.

(sorry for any misspellings I’m writing this at 2AM)

[athanaric]

Personally I have always found leading Gaulic armies in EB to be a somewhat difficult task, and I think that EB has represented reality quite well, their line troops tend to be high damage-low morale mixtures (Northern and Southern Gaulic swordsmen especially) and they tend to excel when led by a good leader but are unreliable under the command of a green general. On the other hand their higher order troops, the solduros and gaesatae are extremely reliable and usually don’t rout unless the commander has horrible leadership skills.

My usual strategy for dealing with this handicap when using green generals against the Sweboz is to insure that there are plenty of slingers around, weaken their line as it approaches and then once they reach javelin range have all of your units open fire simultaneously, the sheer amount of casualties that it causes is staggering and the morale effect is immense, after such an attack a Sweboz battle line tends to rout just as quickly as a Gaulic one (the same tactic works wonders against other Gauls). Later in the game you’ll want to keep a few units of Gaesatae around just to scare your enemies senseless and to provide unparalleled infantry flanking forces, and I usually use Solduros in the center of the line as they are extremely hard to break, although sometimes I use them to insure that a flank holds though the casualties are noticeably higher. The other nifty trick is to hook your light skirmish cavalry around the enemy’s flank and sit behind them throwing javelins into their backs.

Similar tactics are effective against the Romans, though their armour is tougher so the javelins are less effective, your best chance against the Romans is to always have cavalry superiority and plenty of Gaesatae and if your general has high morale bonuses you can defeat just about anyone.

(sorry for any misspellings I’m writing this at 2AM)
A sound approach.
Against the Romans I use more Teceitos and Tekastos, if available. Sadly the Gauls don't have a good access to AP infantry units, especially after the Soldiers reform where they lose Teceitos. In this regard, the Swêboz are actually better, since they have cheap and effective clubmen and, on top of that, easier (and more permanent) access to Teceitos than the Gauls themselves.

[Unintended BM]

On my Aedui game, I just used a bunch of slingers and swordsmen against the Romans. Once I got farther down into Italy, I was able to get some good Samnite mercenaries, and some heavier cavalry. The Romans weren't really that hard. If I had waited longer until they got some reforms, I bet they would have been really tough though.

[Geticus]

On my Aedui game, I just used a bunch of slingers and swordsmen against the Romans. Once I got farther down into Italy, I was able to get some good Samnite mercenaries, and some heavier cavalry. The Romans weren't really that hard. If I had waited longer until they got some reforms, I bet they would have been really tough though.

Yeah my invasion of Italy force is typically my FM, 7-9 Northern Gallic Swordsmen all with weapon upgrades, 4 slingers, and 1 or 2 curepos mercs. Northerns tend to take pretty heavy casualties vs. triarii and especially against pedites extraordinarii. So Southern Gallic Swordsmen reinforcements from Mediolanum play an increasing role in the line, and often comprise the majority of the line by the time I sack Roma, typically sometime between 258 and 254.

Polybian heavy infantry are good but if you postpone the Roman invasion and focus on Gaul, then you can deport populations to inner Gaul from conquered cities, the key is to get huge cities in central Gaul and trigger Time of Soldiers so that you can levy Neitos and/or Arjos. Gaulic Neitos are tough as hell, and in a solid line they are a match for anything the game has to offer. I have done custom battles, neitos properly managed are a match for just about anything including gaesatae, bastarnae etc. Gather a top quality stack with a center line of Neitos or Arjos and go after Diazenis and the other eleutheroi elites in central Europe, hard battle if you want a real challenge;)

[Unintended BM]

I just finished all of Time of Soldiers MICs, and right when I did that, the Sweboz decided to attack. So basically, now I have a full stack of all my cool new units ready to conquer Germania. I already had one giant battle against the Sweboz, and I beat the crap out of them, which is to be expected, my army is pretty well overpowered with the best Aedui troops.

https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w276/Indoril_Jarsa/EB%20pics/RomeTW-ALX2010-04-0413-45-22-04.jpg

See what I mean? Totally overpowered. I spent like 170k building up my armies. That army in the north heading toward Bagacos is a bunch of Belgic spearmen, swordsmen and cavalry. I also have a bunch of backup garrisons ready to resupply my main army if I ever lose too many guys, which doesn't seem likely. The only trouble I've had so far was against the Sweboz bodyguards, but a few cavalry charges on the flank took care of them pretty easily.

To kind of almost stay on topic, the later Gaul spearmen, the Gaelaiche, they're pretty decent, much better than the early spearmen. I guess Gaul morale isn't really a problem once you get going.

[Power2the1]

I am certainly glad to see teh Gauls in good order, but for players who mirror historic compositions, the Celts should only have around 6 units with chainmail, the rest would be 'normal' units.

You could have something like this:

1 Brihentin
1Argos
2 Neitos
1 Solduros
1 Mori Gaesum

The rest would be your Bataroeas, Botraos, Lugoae, slingers, Luece epos, axemen, etc... This would be the typical way I play with my own house rules, and the 20-30% mark is what the most historians agree upon. Some even less than this. Getting near accurate chainmail amounts for a Celtic army would be at the 20-30% mark, a bit less for a Briton army, and even less with a Sweboz army. Just an idea for some players. EB much funner this way and more rewarding after a victory.

[Geticus]

I just finished all of Time of Soldiers MICs, and right when I did that, the Sweboz decided to attack. So basically, now I have a full stack of all my cool new units ready to conquer Germania. I already had one giant battle against the Sweboz, and I beat the crap out of them, which is to be expected, my army is pretty well overpowered with the best Aedui troops.

See what I mean? Totally overpowered. I spent like 170k building up my armies. That army in the north heading toward Bagacos is a bunch of Belgic spearmen, swordsmen and cavalry. I also have a bunch of backup garrisons ready to resupply my main army if I ever lose too many guys, which doesn't seem likely. The only trouble I've had so far was against the Sweboz bodyguards, but a few cavalry charges on the flank took care of them pretty easily.

To kind of almost stay on topic, the later Gaul spearmen, the Gaelaiche, they're pretty decent, much better than the early spearmen. I guess Gaul morale isn't really a problem once you get going.

Yeah that army should have a pretty smooth ride into Swebotraust as long as your FM has decent healing. That's as strong as it gets really, except that you don't have many chevrons. The only way you could improve much would be to levy with Stone temples of Teutatis and fields of games for more chevrons and maybe hire some Cretans in Italy. My typical royal army has the king or crown prince, 3 brihentin/leuke epos, 4 slingers, 7 neitos/Arjos, 4 helvetians/bataroas, 1 gaesatae or druid. Gaesatae are IMO so overpowered that I don't recruit them unless I have a Stone temple of Teutatis/Taranis in the city. FWIW in my experience the Carnute druid chant creates both positive morale for your own troops and causes fear in nearby opposing troops, and that fear stacks with gaesatae fear. So when both fears are in effect it is pretty easy to start a chainroute.

[Geticus]

I am certainly glad to see teh Gauls in good order, but for players who mirror historic compositions, the Celts should only have around 6 units with chainmail, the rest would be 'normal' units.


The rest would be your Bataroeas, Botraos, Lugoae, slingers, Luece epos, axemen, etc... This would be the typical way I play with my own house rules, and the 20-30% mark is what the most historians agree upon. Some even less than this. Getting near accurate chainmail amounts for a Celtic army would be at the 20-30% mark, a bit less for a Briton army, and even less with a Sweboz army. Just an idea for some players. EB much funner this way and more rewarding after a victory.

Interesting restrictions, in that case the Gauls are still in good shape since Leuke epos outclass brihentin in some respects, and Northern Gallic Swordsmen are very cost effective with proper chevron/weapon enhancement, and Belgae swords are among the best swordsmen in the game. I won't even mention Gaesatae the only infantry that can charge straight into elephants and cut them down.

[Power2the1]

The Gaesatae are going to be powerful professional that they were in real life, bu charging into elephants and coming out on top is going to cease. They are overpowered in EB1, and while the stats in the EB2 build are provisional, the Gaesatae will not be able to take down whole armies or anything. My house rules are not to have more than 4 Gaesatae in any 1 army. Trust, its tempting to make more or an all Gaesatae army, but the victories you'd win with them would be hollow I would imagine.

Going back to the armor rates, the 15-20% for the Gauls would be maximum when you first start playing since warrior burials during this time, in real life, do not feature the same kind of iron amounts that would be found later. Time of Bondsmen and Soldiers is when you could ramp up the chainmail wearing units to 20-30% or so, and this is an estimate on the iron in warrior burials in those times. So as the reforms progress, afford yourself 1-2 more armored units than before, but no more than 6 or possibly 7, and you'll be playing close to how thing would have been. Also, in the last two reforms, think about having a bit more cavalry than you would have usually used before. The nobility and greater warriors would have increasingly turned to mounted combat after leaving the chariot. So with this in mind, Brihentin should increasingly be most of your chanimail units in the last two eras, faithfully representing the armored nobility and the 'kinghts', as Caesar called them. Again, just some tips for the player wishing to try the Gaulish hardcore history route.

Britons should have perhaps the second highest amount of chainmail wearers, but their nobles are chariot users, so they can substitute or be considered a 'chainmail wearing unit'. Perhaps in their 3 reforms, you could go with 2, 3, then 4, not including your chariots, but you should not have many of them either.

The Sweboz should have very little. Their B.C. time period was not marked with major advances in metalworking and production. I am thinking 2, maybe 3 units tops, even in the last reform as well.

This is how I play at least, and this should be rather close to historical occurrences in the military of the day that one would face.

[Unintended BM]

Solduros and Gaesatae are both very overpowered. I had three units of Solduros take an entire town of Sweboz, and I only lost like 80 guys. As for the Gaesatae, if I put them up front in a battle and have them charge, most things will rout before I can get my other units to charge. It's good to hear that you're changing stuff around for EB II.

[Cute Wolf]

Nah, Mistophoroi Toxotai Kretikoi just need to focus fire on Gaesatae's thingies, and they'll be severely depleted, and a simple Hippeis charges can shatter them into submission (but when I using their fellow celts or sweboz, I always play gaesatae vs gaesatae, or gaesatae showered with Jugunthiz javelins...

[athanaric]

[...]
Britons should have perhaps the second highest amount of chainmail wearers, but their nobles are chariot users, so they can substitute or be considered a 'chainmail wearing unit'. Perhaps in their 3 reforms, you could go with 2, 3, then 4, not including your chariots, but you should not have many of them either.

The Sweboz should have very little. Their B.C. time period was not marked with major advances in metalworking and production. I am thinking 2, maybe 3 units tops, even in the last reform as well.

This is how I play at least, and this should be rather close to historical occurrences in the military of the day that one would face.

Thank you, that is some very useful information for all those factions. I had hoped for something like this.

This probably means for Swêboz after the latest reform: one FM, one unit noble cavalry, one unit heavy infantry?
What about pikemen units? And BTW, are they gonna make it to EB II?



Solduros and Gaesatae are both very overpowered. I had three units of Solduros take an entire town of Sweboz, and I only lost like 80 guys. As for the Gaesatae, if I put them up front in a battle and have them charge, most things will rout before I can get my other units to charge. It's good to hear that you're changing stuff around for EB II.
Solduros are one of the best units in Western Europe, which I guess isn't far from the historical truth. And it's not that difficult to counter them, if you use axemen or clubmen. The AI is dumb so it's no wonder you had so few losses.

[Unintended BM]

Yeah, overpowered when fighting the AI is what I meant.

On a slightly unrelated note, I had one unit of Gaesatae rout during a battle with the Sweboz, and it was just fighting some random levy spearmen unit. It was very odd. The Gaesatae wasn't even that depleted, it still had around 100 guys in it.

[Geticus]

On the other hand if a barbarian faction conquers and rules an ahistorically large empire, like the Sweboz conquering and ruling all Germania and Gaul at the same time, or the Gauls conquering and ruling all Gaul and Italy and Gallicizing the majority of Italy, and maybe adding Britain to the list, then one is controlling much greater economic resources than any historical Gallic/Swebian king ever did, and it is appropriate at that point to not limit oneself to historical examples since those historical kings controlled much weaker economies. The factional goals of non-Roman factions are to some extent ahistorical anyhow, especially if one includes "house rules" to vanquish the SPQR outright like I generally have.

[Power2the1]

Thank you, that is some very useful information for all those factions. I had hoped for something like this.

This probably means for Swêboz after the latest reform: one FM, one unit noble cavalry, one unit heavy infantry?
What about pikemen units? And BTW, are they gonna make it to EB II?



Solduros are one of the best units in Western Europe, which I guess isn't far from the historical truth. And it's not that difficult to counter them, if you use axemen or clubmen. The AI is dumb so it's no wonder you had so few losses.

No problem, happy to inform y'all on the overall plan for certain things. With your guess, that sounds about right for the Sweboz chainmailed units. The elite/professional Speutagardaz pikemen I personally keep to 5 units per army keeping in mind that the elites/professionals are not a large segments with an Iron Age European army, and never was really. The Sweboz and Celts would raid, of course, with their better troops, but in large armies, consisting of levies for campaigns (full stacks in the RTW sense), the levies and semi or non professional troops would certain outnumber the professionals and elites by about 3-to-1 and more. With a 20 unit limit in all the TW games, you have to work around that and try to give a accurate representation of the armies back then.

I am not apart of the Sweboz team, but I would say that from what I have seen there will be plenty of pikemen and spearmen to go around, especially as the javelin/spear armed warrior was much more common than those with swords.

As for the Solduros they will be restricted to a much smaller area in EB2, but retain their professional status as a force to be reckoned with.

[Power2the1]

On the other hand if a barbarian faction conquers and rules an ahistorically large empire, like the Sweboz conquering and ruling all Germania and Gaul at the same time, or the Gauls conquering and ruling all Gaul and Italy and Gallicizing the majority of Italy, and maybe adding Britain to the list, then one is controlling much greater economic resources than any historical Gallic/Swebian king ever did, and it is appropriate at that point to not limit oneself to historical examples since those historical kings controlled much weaker economies.

True, however, the power would still have been helmd in the hands of the few, as with the Celts in the Late La Tene period. Large swaths of terrritory doesn't automatically equate with an all elite force. The Seleucids, for example, had a grat amount of territory, yet, the Royal Guard was a minority (20,000 iirc) when it came to facing large battles. Here we see settler units, archers, slingers, other levies, easterners, etc...such as what was found at Magnesia where the Royal Guard was much less than half of the total force assembled. Same goes for the Ptolemies calling up the settler phalanx (kleruchoi and katoikoi) only during certain times of emergencies. The great expense of maintaining a standing army was just vast, and most cultures, especially in Northern Europe, could not afford this year long. When a great danger loomed, then a levy was imposed upon the region, when that danger passed, the levies went back home and would not be called until a great need had for them had presented itself.