View Full Version : Celts
Hi
This goes to all the whizz kid moders out there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Has anyone thought of making a Celtic Faction/Mod ?
A huge screaming woad covered mob would make a fearsome army to command/defend against.
It would also give the pagans more character.
Any one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
MonkeyMan
11-27-2002, 17:09
Do you have any good Celtic names you would like in there?
Also which provinces/units would you want them to have?
Do you have any colour or flag preferance?
It would certainly be easy enough to replace say the argonese with a celtic faction in ireland, wales and scotland able to build clansmen and gallowglasses by the plenty.
Only the colour and banner/flag changes and possibly some of the renaming that would cause me problems.
You would also need to think about the GA's a celtinc faction would want and what religion you would give them, being as making them pagan would make all sorts of problems with agents and even the other units.
Monkeyman
It depends if people would want a 100% historical Celtic addition or one based on Celtic legend.
As the Celts didn't write anything down I suppose a completely historical mode would be impossible.
As Celts worshiped their own gods I suppose they would be considered Pagan- bit as you said that would cause big probs with lack of agents etc.
If it were a complete mod then I'd like Britian to be called Tir Na Og- The land of the Young and maybe have some ancient celtic princes as generals.
Pryderi was a famous Celtic king
http://member.rivernet.com.au/manxman/Celts/Pryderi.JPG
As King Arthur and Merlin are Celtic heroes they could be included too.
Sooooo much material to draw inspiration from.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
I'll do some more research into provinces etc then
ICantSpellDawg
11-27-2002, 18:26
the celts were never really an empire - just a bunch of celtic regions - the peoples were never uniform, butonly shared similar roots. some provinces would be Eire (where the irish gaels lived) Scotland (where the scottish gaels and picts lived) brittany (where the Briton gaels lived) Galicia (northwestern spain - northern lyon) and Galatia (northern triezbond in the middle east oddly enough) - other areas would be the languedoc region in toulouse where they spoke occitanian which was a romance language with heavy celtic roots
there is a ton of stuff to look at, but in this game i do not think having a celtic faction would be realistic as it was only a cultural thing rather than a faction of sorts. i do hope that they make the celts a playable faction in the viking add-on, i would LOVE it - that time period would be more realistically portrayed with a celtic faction
I agree with the timeline point.
I also agree that the Celts were never really an empire but then again this game lets you play the what ifs of History-
i.e What if England conquered France in the 100 years war
or in this case
What if the the Celtic tribes were united
A mod or expansion that could let you try and unite the Celtic tribes would be excellent.
If anyone here ever read any Slaine comics then they could base it on Slaine trying to become the High King- or Horned God to throw off the Celts oppressors.
Why not use the alleged Burgundian faction, they don't seemed to be used?
Would their starting provinces be selectable
i.e Could they be set in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Brittany etc
Also, could the Burgundian name be changed to Celtic ?
Lord Krazy
11-27-2002, 20:30
Quote[/b] (monkian @ Nov. 27 2002,12:52)]Would their starting provinces be selectable
i.e Could they be set in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Brittany etc
Also, could the Burgundian name be changed to Celtic ?
All this can be changed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Quote[/b] ]There are some strange notions mentioned here
which won't make it into my mod
I'm not thinking about a 100% historical mod
but I'm not going to call Britan "Tir na n'og"
This would be too much for me I'm afraid.
I mean why would you want to call Britan
a mythical Irish name.
I only included the Tir Na Nog name if anyone wanted to go down the mythical side of things.
As Kind David did a Camelot mod whats wrong with using Celtic legend ?
I'm not saying you should do it but why say its weird ?
I mentioned Slaine in response to TuffStuffMcGruff saying that Celts werent really a faction.In the story the Celtic hero tries to unite all Celtic tribes under hsi command which could be used as Glorious achievements for them.
Lord Krazy
11-27-2002, 22:27
I like your idea of the glorious achievements.
I was wondering why you don't want to call Ireland
Tir na n'og if you wish to use this term.
This would be less wierd.
Being an Irish Celt I tend to find it
wierd that you wish you associate
my culture and lendgends to another
culture.I don't care I just think it is strange.
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
ICantSpellDawg
11-28-2002, 00:29
i didnt know tir-na-nog was an irish name either, i thought they brought it over with them from britan. alos, eire does mean ireland, it is Gaelic for "ireland" - all of the words in irish gaelic ive ever seen reffering to ireland have that word - united (or agreed)ireland in gaelic is "eire aontaithe", erin is the name foriegn irish give their daughters and it stands for Eire or ireland. tons of other evidence would suggest that people call ireland eire in a correct sense - you are right about the scots coming from ireland tho, scotus means little irish in latin (or so ive heard, never checked tho - will now)
Wellington
11-28-2002, 02:23
"you are right about the scots coming from ireland tho, scotus means little irish in latin (or so ive heard, never checked tho - will now)"
I always thought 'scotus' meant the little sacks beneath the prick - which I thought tended to explain why Scotsmen wear sporrans (cultural inheritence!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ...
... sigh, we live and learn ;-)
ICantSpellDawg
11-28-2002, 02:33
HAR HAR HAR
hehe
ICantSpellDawg
11-28-2002, 02:40
i just found this site; its really great - its goes over some old irish history and seems incredibly interesting
old ireland (http://www.ireland.org/irl_hist/hist1.htm)
Lord Krazy
11-28-2002, 03:21
Welly I think this sort of conversation
is a bit below the belt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So less of that scrot, sorry I meant scott bashing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Tir na bud http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Is fear rith maith le na droch.....
TuffStuffMcGruff,
That website is more just myth than researched truth. The truth is it's very hard to find anything true, and properly studied and researched on Irish History before the Christian Era.
Because like someone pointed out earlier, nothing was written down. Very hard to record a Peoples history if nothing is writtn down, heck we know more about the myecians of Crete ~3000BC than we do about Ireland Between 400AD and 600AD.
Almost everything we know about Ireland before the Christian Era, is simply guess work.
Anyway, after 1169AD it's all moot, as it had become a Norman/English Domain After they offered (MacMurrough Senior), the English King the Crown to stop the infighting.
MonkeyMan
You can't call Wales a Celtic tribe either(for one it was three main tribes), as ever since Roman times, 60 to 70% of Wales has been English-Roman territory. Remember it was only the North-West of Wales, (that area within todays Principaliy of Wales), that was so called Welsh.
That is why the only Concentric Castles in Wales ( built by Edward the I), are in the North West. The rest of Wales Province, was English.
Hence the didn't need to place troops in the rest of Wales Province.
Also the south was part of the brigantes tribe from around Britol and Gloucester, before the Romans.
monkian
Please Note: King Arthur and Merlin is a Mytholoical Tale written in the 1400's or 1600's or something, by a guy from Cornwall. it is not history. There is Absolutely NO evidence to suggest otherwise.
So therefore it's English or Anglo-Saxon legend. As there is nothing in any Celtic writings to say otherwise. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Though i do think you have the best description of a Celtic Faction....
Quote[/b] ]A huge screaming woad covered mob would make a fearsome army to command/defend against
Yep can't fault that.
Mind you if you can divide ireland up into 46 individual regions and loyalities, then I would play, then I just have to clear a path from Tyronne to them O'Brians from Clare.
fenir
*goes back to drinking Gin..*hic*i..ness*
Hmmm Should we put Lord Krazy in a Round room and atell him there is a beer in the Corner?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
LK
I knew Tir Na nog meant Land of the Young and was Irish but I didn't think it just meant Ireland, I always believed it to mean all Celtic nations http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I think its unfair to dismiss Wales as a celtic nation- there were Celtic peoples in Britian long before the Romans arrived. As Wales in French is Pay des Galles- Place of the Gaules- Gaulles being one of the original Celtic tribes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Fenir
I know that the knights of the round table version of King Arthur was a romanticised version written in the middle ages but alot of the characters were stolen from legend.
The best source of Welsh legend is theThe Mabinogion (http://www.cyberphile.co.uk/~taff/taffnet/mabinogion/mabinogion.htm+)
Lord Krazy
11-28-2002, 17:47
I don't recall dismissing Wales as
a Celtic nation I would never do such a thing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
In Irish we call them the little Britans
(Bretonbeag) this is not derogatory.
I was just pointing out the difference in language.
The Welsh are very important Celtic grouping
and do a hell of a lot to promote celtic culture.
In Spanish they call it Gales too.
In Spain they also have Galicia
which is Celtic but their dialect
is like Spanish with a funny accent.
So just because someone else calls you a
Gale does not mean you are.
Celtic and Galic are two things not to be confused
in modern day terms.
Tir na n'og does not refer to anywhere it's just a story.
But an Irish one at that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
This is what I learned in school and read from books
I'm not saying I'm right I just want to give
you another opinion.I like the whole celtic mod idea
and I find this sort of discussion healthy.
Part 2
As part of the Brian Boru mod, I wanted to divide Ireland
and make the joining of the Clans the early goal
and Keeping the Danes out as the later goal
I was only planing to do a two period mod.
Then I wished to complete the Celtic Nordic one
after, using the Boru mod as the base for the
Celtic and Nordic mod as both mods are full of Celts and
Nordic people http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
This is up for discussion if anyone wants to help.
I won't be doing any work on this untill the new year
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
LK
I like this discussion too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I like the sound of your mod, please keep us updated I'd also be glad to offer any help.
And completely off topic
*points to post count*
69 Dude
Quote[/b] ] monkian,
I know that the knights of the round table version of King Arthur was a romanticised version written in the middle ages but alot of the characters were stolen from legend.
Sorry monkian,
As far as the offical research goes, all thats ever been done,(and what I have done) even by Celtic historians, there is no evidence to say that it is Celtic.
Even though some would like to claim so. I do know one "so called historian, who has for 22 years tried to prove that it is Celtic, but he has never been able to.
Even he admits, it is only a theory.
As far as Characters go, that is open to interpretation, Subjective, like most things.
The Whole story is set outside of a celtic setting and time period anyway. But even this can be construed as being the fault of the writer, but perhaps the writer was writing a story that he just thought up and wished to write down.
Also congratulations on your posting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I would however go as far as to dismiss The Celtic Welsh as a nation, mainly because they never where a nation. They where a group of waring factions within a very very small area. Certianly no nation.
It's like trying to reinvent the wheel with a hexagon. But this is all irrelevent, as it's recorded history that has been thrashed already.
The Best Source of History is the university library and their book/treatise exchange system. Oh and microfilm.
PS: Fenir has long learnt not to trust websites.
Usually we cannot determine the information source or the accuracy, and are usually written by people in self promotion, and usually from a coffee table history book.
(Thats historian for, some one is out to make a buck at histories expense). Happens LOTS
And not objective historical investigation.
fenir
Lord Krazy
11-29-2002, 00:42
The welsh have a football team.
That makes them a nation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
ICantSpellDawg
11-29-2002, 02:32
yea, we should divide up the map into like a billiojn little tribal areas - i wish anyway, then let someone pick their eventual colors and religion of the people, i thought it would have been pretty neat, being able to pick and choos what religion your people are
off topic
Galestrum
11-29-2002, 16:17
another note on british celts
by arthurs time frame - the people of england werent "celts" they had been romans for 400 years within the empire, spoke & wrote latin, had roman baths, were christians, were administered along roman lines, and had been absorbed within the roman style of military - they were romans
the real king arthur, or the person(s) he is based off had alot more in common with caesar than vercingtorix.
Galestrum
11-29-2002, 16:23
on pictish language debate, i ctually have a book which pretty thouroughly examines that discussion.
Its called the age of the picts - in short it concludes that the picts have nothing to do with "celtic" culture/language in any way shape or form
in fact picts appear to have no close affinities to any of the ancient peoples - as if they appeared out of a vaccumn
I would make a bet that most people just assumed the were of celt origin just because there were "celts" in all the other parts britain, so why not make them celts too hehe
such "intellectual" theories have been seen before.
Galestrum
11-29-2002, 16:28
on scots, history shows that what would become the kingdom of scotland is made up of romanized celts, celts from ireland, picts and vikings (further into the dark ages) - this melting pot is what became the people scotland.
Fenir
I agree that the Welsh Celts weren't really a nation but the Welsh are a nation of Celts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Theres a local legend that King Arthur lies buried in a field in Catash Hill- 5 miles from where I live.
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