View Full Version : If it wasn't so mean-spirited, it would be funny...
Goofball
03-14-2010, 06:35
Every time I think I have seen the height of conservative, moral majority, homophobic hysteria, something new pops up that absolutely leaves me shocked at its stupidity. The gist of it: a lesbian girl wanted to bring a female date to her high school prom in Mississippi. The school told her she couldn't. The ACLU pointed out to the school that yes, in fact, she could. The school then took the only possible action available to right-thinking people: they cancelled prom for everyone.
Awesome.
Note: Sorry if there has already been a topic on this. I haven't been around much lately and have lost touch.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/mar/11/lesbian-prom-mississippi-cancel
a completely inoffensive name
03-14-2010, 06:38
It's Mississippi. What did you expect?
I doubt she didn't she this coming, guess she feels her sexual identity is the most important thing in the world.
And -1 for that school.
HoreTore
03-14-2010, 10:18
I doubt she didn't she this coming, guess she feels her sexual identity is the most important thing in the world.
What's more important to a person than the people you love?
But the other kids at the prom need to be protected, can't risk them being infected with teh gayness!!!11
EDIT: A tiny fun fact about her home town of Fulton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton,_Mississippi):
The sex-ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Sex_ratios) in the rest of the US is 1:1, with slightly more males born and slightly more females reaching old age(same as everywhere else). Fulton, however, only has 83.5 males for every 100 females... They can't discriminate lesbians, having a part lesbian population is the only way for the people there to add up!
The choice is between sad, single heterosexuals or happy lesbians.
What's more important to a person than the people you love?
Maybe prom-night was important to the other kids, but screw others of course there are more important things, like her for example. Some people just like traditions get over it, shrug it of. The people running the schools are idiots, but she is a provocateur.
Meneldil
03-14-2010, 10:35
Mississippi for you. It will soon seceed and become part of Afghanistan anyway.
HoreTore
03-14-2010, 10:39
Maybe prom-night was important to the other kids, but screw others of course there are more important things, like her for example. Some people just like traditions get over it, shrug it of. The people running the schools are idiots, but she is a provocateur.
So.... When faced with injustice, the Fragony way of doing things is to bend over and take teh pain?
No, people need to stand up to injustice. Don't blame the consequences on the victim.
And in case you didn't read the article properly; the straight kids are going to have a private prom with a big sign that says "Gays not allowed", which makes the discrimination legal. So yes, screw the others, only the gay students are hurt by this.
So.... When faced with injustice, the Fragony way of doing things is to bend over and take teh pain?
The Fragony way is not imposing. When I am not welcome I stay away, why would you want to be there in the first place. But that is like a red cloth on a bull on blitzbitches, they always want what they can't get, and they will wreck whatever is in their way. That is is a much loved old tradition means nothing to them.
And in case you didn't read the article properly; the straight kids are going to have a private prom with a big sign that says "Gays not allowed", which makes the discrimination legal. So yes, screw the others, only the gay students are hurt by this.
Just like every straight sportsman is discriminated at the gay olympics. But I guess that's different, being different and all that but equal when it suits them. They should stop their whining.
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 11:03
The Fragony way is not imposing.
What exactly was she trying to "impose"?
I did not get the impression that she tried to force anybody else to show up with same-sex dates or that she tried to force any other girls to wear a tuxedo.
Or was she "imposing" the unsightly view of a gay couple?
Ibn-Khaldun
03-14-2010, 11:18
If she would've been a straight girl and would have taken her best friend(who is girl) to the prom then what would've happened? Nothing...
This prom thing is some American thingy that I just don't understand..
What exactly was she trying to "impose"?
You know what she tried to impose, we can disagree on wether or not it's a good thing to be so provocative and self-centred. That attitude annoys the crap out of me personally.
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 11:28
You know what she tried to impose
No - as a matter of fact I don't. Why don't you spell it out?
No - as a matter of fact I don't. Why don't you spell it out?
HER SEXUAL ORIENTATION naturally. Some people like their traditions, they shouldn't complain can't have everything.
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 11:48
HER SEXUAL ORIENTATION naturally.
How can she "impose" her sexual orientation by simply showing up with her girlfriend? If she planned show up there waving a protest banner and shouting gay rights slogans I would agree with you, but if simply showing up with your girlfriend already qualifies as "imposing" I think you lost me.
If she planned show up there waving a protest banner and shouting gay rights slogans I would agree with you, but if simply showing up with your girlfriend already qualifies as "imposing" I think you lost me.
For these people that is exactly what she did. And she did it willingly, to provocate.
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 12:17
For these people that is exactly what she did. And she did it willingly, to provocate.
What do you mean for "these people". If for "these people" simply showing up is already equivalent to waving a banner and shouting slogans, then perhaps "these people" are the problem and not this girl.
Perhaps "these people" should consider learning some tolerance as part of decent behaviour just as other "people" learned in the past. As long as the girl and her friend do not do anything that would be different from what other couples are doing at the prom I still do not quite see the problem.
InsaneApache
03-14-2010, 12:23
There was a case in Scotland recently where a school camping and mountaineering trip was cancelled because a disabled girls mother complained that she couldn't go because the terrain was too difficult for her to manage, due to her disability. I'm sure that made the poor lass popular with her classmates.
Not in the same league as two hot chicks french kissing. Who in their right mind would ban that. Some people would pay good money to see summat like that. :embarassed:
What do you mean for "these people". If for "these people" simply showing up is already equivalent to waving a banner and shouting slogans, then perhaps "these people" are the problem and not this girl.
Perhaps "these people" should consider learning some tolerance as part of decent behaviour just as other "people" learned in the past. As long as the girl and her friend do not do anything that would be different from what other couples are doing at the prom I still do not quite see the problem.
As I said the people leading the school are idiots, but she is the one being disrespectful of a valued tradition. It doesn't matter how we look at these things.
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 12:45
she is the one being disrespectful of a valued tradition.
Again, how is she "disrepspectful"? By simply showing up with her date? I thought the tradition is that you have a romantic evening with your date. Perhaps "these people" are disrespecting the tradition by not allowing her to show up with the date of her choice.
I still do not see how the presence of a gay couple is going to ruin the prom. Why would anybody care? "These people" should spend more time on having a good time with their dates than going "OMG teh gays are ruining the prom".
Again, how is she "disrepspectful"? By simply showing up with her date? I thought the tradition is that you have a romantic evening with your date. Perhaps "these people" are disrespecting the tradition by not allowing her to show up with the date of her choice.
I still do not see how the presence of a gay couple is going to ruin the prom. Why would anybody care? "These people" should spend more time on having a good time with their dates than going "OMG teh gays are ruining the prom".
You are of course right, but you don't see it from my perspective. You agreed with me had she been waving gay rights signs, how exactly is this any different iff prom is traditionally a boy+girl thing? Who is wrong, the one too fixated on old traditions, or the one not respecting these old traditions, that I will leave to you that's a matter of opinion.
PanzerJaeger
03-14-2010, 13:52
What cowards.
If the school administration felt the need to take a stand on sexual orientation - which is not at all their place - they should have disallowed the girl to attend and dealt with the lawsuits and backlash. That would have at least been a principled stand.
But to turn it back around on the 16 year old girl by canceling the prom altogether is just pathetic. It reeks of immaturity and spite. She is going to be tortured for this. :shame:
johnhughthom
03-14-2010, 13:56
I'm guessing we haven't heard the full story, couldn't she have just turned up at the event with her girlfriend wearing a tuxedo? Do you have to show a photo of what you are going to wear and who you are going to bring? Seems to me she is not some poor little girl who can't bring the love of her life to her school prom, she probably knew exactly what would happed when she "asked" permission.
Don't get me wrong, the school are still pathetic in my book.
Rhyfelwyr
03-14-2010, 14:01
But if they allow gay couples to mix with straight people, then they might be influenced and turn gay.
Like when they allowed blacks to have proms on the same night, and the white kids...
Nah, even I'll admit that this is petty. But at the same time there's no need for the leftist moral outrage, she could just suck it up and respect peoples traditions, the world doesn't have to change just for her.
Nah, even I'll admit that this is petty. But at the same time there's no need for the leftist moral outrage, she could just suck it up and respect peoples traditions, the world doesn't have to change just for her.
^--- that
If the school administration felt the need to take a stand on sexual orientation - which is not at all their place - they should have disallowed the girl to attend and dealt with the lawsuits and backlash.
This as well.
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 14:58
the world doesn't have to change just for her.
And again - what exactly would change for the others? How would the prom be in []any[/i] kind different/worse for all the other people if this gay couple showed if with one girl wearing a tuxedo?
Could somebody please point out the key traditional elements of a prom to me? Is "no gay couples" one of these key elements? I thought the key elements were dressing up, dancing closely, planning a nice evening for your date, electing a prom queen, etc. - not sure how any of these things might be negatively affected by this lesbian couple. At least as long as nobody on either side makes a big ruckus of the gay couple coming to the prom. This should not even be a matter of discussion for either side - they should simply go there, like every other couple, behave like every other couple and end of story.
johnhughthom
03-14-2010, 14:59
electing a prom queen
Well, I suppose allowing gay couples might change that...
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 15:03
Well, I suppose allowing gay couples might change that...
How?
johnhughthom
03-14-2010, 15:08
Umm, twas a joke. Electing a prom "queen" with guy men might get interesting.
Ser Clegane
03-14-2010, 15:11
Umm, twas a joke.
:bow:
And again - what exactly would change for the others? How would the prom be in []any[/i] kind different/worse for all the other people if this gay couple showed if with one girl wearing a tuxedo?
Could somebody please point out the key traditional elements of a prom to me? Is "no gay couples" one of these key elements? I thought the key elements were dressing up, dancing closely, planning a nice evening for your date, electing a prom queen, etc. - not sure how any of these things might be negatively affected by this lesbian couple. At least as long as nobody on either side makes a big ruckus of the gay couple coming to the prom. This should not even be a matter of discussion for either side - they should simply go there, like every other couple, behave like every other couple and end of story.
It's just how they see it, nobody is disagreeing with that this is stupid.
it is the school fault, not the students.
If the girl wanted to come with her female friend, that would be allowed, but since she is a lesbian, we can't bring her female friend.
What imbeciles, no one can condone the school for what they did and anyone who does should be shipped back to 69 B.C and learn a thing or two from the Romans.
This is one from California - http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20281762,00.html Now that is an interesting one.
gaelic cowboy
03-14-2010, 15:30
But at the same time there's no need for the leftist moral outrage, she could just suck it up and respect peoples traditions, the world doesn't have to change just for her.
The world also doesnt need to stay the same for you
Mean-spirited indeed. I wholy agree with Ser. Who is getting hurt here if they allow her to go? No one, maybe a few parents get uneasy, but this isn't their event so who cares about them. For me the Dalai Lama says it best:
"If someone comes to me and asks whether homosexuality is okay or not, I will ask, 'What is your companion's opinion?' If you both agree, then I think I would say, 'if two males or two females voluntarily agree to have mutual satisfaction without further implication of harming others, then it is okay.'"
KukriKhan
03-14-2010, 16:19
What cowards.
If the school administration felt the need to take a stand on sexual orientation - which is not at all their place - they should have disallowed the girl to attend and dealt with the lawsuits and backlash. That would have at least been a principled stand.
But to turn it back around on the 16 year old girl by canceling the prom altogether is just pathetic. It reeks of immaturity and spite. She is going to be tortured for this. :shame:
Fricke v. Lynch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fricke_v._Lynch). They probably got legal advice to simply cancel the event, rather than either approve or deny McMillan's request. So then the issue becomes, instead of McMillan's Freedom of Speech rights, the "rights" of students to even have a school-sanctioned and -sponsored Prom. Some smart lawyer might (probably will) take up the case, pointing to other school events and extracurricular activities (football teams, debate clubs, etc) getting permission to use school-, that is: taxpayer-owned, facilities. Net result 2 years down the road?
No extracurricular activities at all. Or
membership in activities open to all.
Public education. What a riot.
Ibn-Khaldun
03-14-2010, 16:44
Fricke v. Lynch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fricke_v._Lynch). They probably got legal advice to simply cancel the event, rather than either approve or deny McMillan's request. So then the issue becomes, instead of McMillan's Freedom of Speech rights, the "rights" of students to even have a school-sanctioned and -sponsored Prom. Some smart lawyer might (probably will) take up the case, pointing to other school events and extracurricular activities (football teams, debate clubs, etc) getting permission to use school-, that is: taxpayer-owned, facilities. Net result 2 years down the road?
No extracurricular activities at all. Or
membership in activities open to all.
Public education. What a riot.
This is weird. Why should the school pay for prom? Perhaps it's because we live in different cultures but this sounds ridiculous.
In here school gives us our diplomas and that's practically it. If students want a "prom" they will pay for it themselves and usually they don't have it in school territory.
Louis VI the Fat
03-14-2010, 17:16
Frags, frags, frags. :no:
Homophobia is sooo Sudan or Afghanistan.
What cowards.
If the school administration felt the need to take a stand on sexual orientation - which is not at all their place - they should have disallowed the girl to attend and dealt with the lawsuits and backlash. That would have at least been a principled stand.
But to turn it back around on the 16 year old girl by canceling the prom altogether is just pathetic. It reeks of immaturity and spite. She is going to be tortured for this. :shame:Perfectly summed up.
Frags, frags, frags. :no:
Homophobia is sooo Sudan or Afghanistan.
And Mississipi apparently, that's not the point.
KukriKhan
03-14-2010, 17:29
This is weird. Why should the school pay for prom? Perhaps it's because we live in different cultures but this sounds ridiculous.
In here school gives us our diplomas and that's practically it. If students want a "prom" they will pay for it themselves and usually they don't have it in school territory.
Good point. This wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prom) article looks at Proms and prom-type events in other countries. Everything from state-paid to privately-sponsored. Over here the hundreds of thousands of School Districts (roughly equivalent to a County) set their own standards and policies. Most derive their funding from a combination of local Property Taxes, AND (this is a big "and") subsidies from State and Federal Governments. Those subsidies entitle those gov'ts to dictate policy and standards to the districts and schools.
To me, THAT is the weird part: distant politicians and technocrats in Washington DC and Jackson MS telling a smallish Mississippi school what they can and can't allow. But it sets the stage for Federal Court cases like Fricke v. Lynch; if you take the Fed or State dollar, you dance to their tune.
Louis VI the Fat
03-14-2010, 17:49
distant politicians and technocrats in Washington DC and Jackson MS telling a smallish Mississippi school what they can and can't allow. But it sets the stage for Federal Court cases like Fricke v. Lynch; if you take the Fed or State dollar, you dance to their tune.Yeah, what's next eh? Washington telling some Mississippi school to desegragate?
KukriKhan
03-14-2010, 18:00
Touche', as they say in Paraguay. :)
Next thing you know they'll be giving children the vote.
Sasaki Kojiro
03-14-2010, 19:16
Maybe prom-night was important to the other kids, but screw others of course there are more important things, like her for example. Some people just like traditions get over it, shrug it of. The people running the schools are idiots, but she is a provocateur.
Traditions...like wearing a burqa? I guess if you daughter was going to a mostly muslim school you'd say she should wear one to respect their traditions...no need to provoke.
Crazed Rabbit
03-14-2010, 19:17
Stupid decision by the school. Who was she going to harm?
CR
seireikhaan
03-14-2010, 20:28
What I'm not getting is why she apparently needed to ask for permission. Maybe prom works differently down south, but up here, we just sorta came with whoever. Not like we sent a letter of intent as to who our date was to the admin.
Either way, that was just a spiteful move to cancel prom.
HoreTore
03-14-2010, 20:35
What I'm not getting is why she apparently needed to ask for permission. Maybe prom works differently down south, but up here, we just sorta came with whoever. Not like we sent a letter of intent as to who our date was to the admin.
Either way, that was just a spiteful move to cancel prom.
Probably some form of registration.
Louis VI the Fat
03-14-2010, 20:47
Umm, twas a joke. Electing a prom "queen" with gay men might get interesting.I knew I'd get lucky. :jumping:
Last year, students at Fairfax Senior High School in Los Angeles elected gay senior Sergio Garcia as prom queen (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20281762,00.html)."That was news, even in Los Angeles,"
https://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4388/promqueen.jpg
I knew I'd get lucky. :jumping:
Last year, students at Fairfax Senior High School in Los Angeles elected gay senior Sergio Garcia as prom queen (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20281762,00.html)."That was news, even in Los Angeles,"
https://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4388/promqueen.jpg
I posted that, Louis, bad boy.
johnhughthom
03-14-2010, 21:08
Finally, the proof I have been looking for that nobody reads Beskar's posts.
:clown:
HoreTore
03-14-2010, 21:09
Finally, the proof I have been looking for that nobody reads Beskar's posts.
Who or what is this "Beskar" you're talking about?
Louis VI the Fat
03-14-2010, 21:14
Finally, the proof I have been looking for that nobody reads Beskar's posts.Nooo!!
I've got Beskar's post on RSS feed. They're send directly to my mobile phone, that I never waste a minute more of my life ignorant of yet another great new insight by Bessy.
Alas though, Beskar edited in his prom queen after I had already read the post, thereby nastily Lemuring me. Such are the limits of modern technology.
KukriKhan
03-14-2010, 21:31
And so we have it: now Lemur is not only a proper noun, it is also a regular noun AND a verb.
johnhughthom
03-14-2010, 21:32
Yet again the French totally misinterpret an attempt at humour. I mean, if a Norwegian got it...
Strike For The South
03-14-2010, 22:05
Yeah, what's next eh? Washington telling some Mississippi school to desegragate?
Segragation now, Segragation tamarwa, segragation forever
Crazed Rabbit
03-14-2010, 23:25
Interesting anecdote; back around the year 2000, my high school elected a lesbian as prom king as a joke. The school, which is in a somewhat rural and conservative area, didn't cancel prom - though after that year they required kings to be male and queens to be female.
Bout time those LA hicks caught up. ~;p
CR
PanzerJaeger
03-14-2010, 23:26
Yeah, what's next eh? Washington telling some Mississippi school to desegragate?
Been there, done that. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html) Sorta...
Rhyfelwyr
03-14-2010, 23:51
Earlier this month, on the Friday night of the white prom, Kera Nobles, a senior who is black, and six of her black classmates drove over to the local community center where it was being held...
After the last couple were announced... Kera and her friends piled into a nearby KFC to eat...
The seven teenagers — a mix of girls and boys — slowly worked their way through two buckets of fried chicken. They cracked jokes about the white people’s prom
lmao
Louis VI the Fat
03-15-2010, 04:04
Yet again the French totally misinterpret an attempt at humour. I mean, if a Norwegian got it...I got the joke. HoreTore made the obvious follow-up already, so I had to come up with something more elaborate.
a completely inoffensive name
03-15-2010, 07:23
Frags, frags, frags. :no:
Homophobia is sooo Sudan or Afghanistan.
HAHAHAHAH! CLASSIC FRAG!
That schools seems very childish, although I am wondering why she announced her date before hand. At our school formal a homosexual girl arrived wearing a suit with and her girlfriend. She didn't announce it before hand though, she just turned up, she even got up in front of all the students and parents and shook hands with the principal when she got her certificate. Nothing imposing about it at all, as far as I know no one was infected with homosexuality.
HAHAHAHAH! CLASSIC FRAG!
Would have been had I sided with the school, but I did't.
Meneldil
03-15-2010, 09:56
she could just suck it up and respect peoples traditions, the world doesn't have to change just for her.
What's that?
What's that?
Well prom for example. Not so strange they don't like that in Hillbilly-land. She knows it will greatly upset them, that is why she's doing it. The people there aren't ready for this. I don't see the problem, the other kids get their prom, she gets her attention she was looking for, everybody happy. No way the school didn't threaten to call of the prom altogether if she didn't back of. She started rolling on the floor and started screaming, like kids do when they don't get what they want when they want it.
If you're going to draw a parallel to a child chucking a tantrum then I'd say it was the school, stamping it's foot and saying "Fine! If we can't get what we want, nobody else gets what they want!"
Well prom for example. Not so strange they don't like that in Hillbilly-land. She knows it will greatly upset them, that is why she's doing it. The people there aren't ready for this. I don't see the problem, the other kids get their prom, she gets her attention she was looking for, everybody happy.
Haha. There isn't some great Lesbian conspiracy to overthrow the straights. She just wanted to celebrate graduating with her partner.
No way the school didn't threaten to call of the prom altogether if she didn't back of. She started rolling on the floor and started screaming, like kids do when they don't get what they want when they want it.
Assumption based on 0 facts.
Assumption based on 0 facts.
But very, very likely. Also very likely that there have been numerous talks with her on how sensitive these things are. She's an activist.
Meneldil
03-15-2010, 13:58
Even if she was an activist, which you can't prove so far, what's the problem? If she tried to underline that Mississippi is full of religous nutjobs who hunt down gays for their entertainment, she hit right on the spot.
Either she simply wanted to go the prom with her date (in which case the school is retard), or she wanted to make a political point and succedeed.
The fact that 'those people' and their 'tradition' are not any better than muslim fundamentalists and fascists doesn't make them right. Sometimes you have to stand up for your rights (an argument that you bring forth all the time when discussing Geert Wilders), and that's precisely what she did: she stood up for her right to be a lesbian and to have a date without being a pariah.
Maybe Rosa Parks shouldn't have stood up for her right to sit in a bus. I mean, she was totally not respecting white scumbags and their tradition.
Goofball
03-15-2010, 14:46
To be fair, I don't think we can blame this one entirely on religion. There are plenty of small-minded bigots who don't need the Bible or the Qu'ran to tell them to hate gays. They do just fine on their own...
Rhyfelwyr
03-15-2010, 16:07
Maybe Rosa Parks shouldn't have stood up for her right to sit in a bus. I mean, she was totally not respecting white scumbags and their tradition.
Going to your school prom isn't a human right, when it's a private function they make the rules, there's no need for social authoritarianism to make everyone conform. Although if the event is funded by the state then I guess the school shouldn't really break its rules.
Even if she was an activist, which you can't prove so far, what's the problem? If she tried to underline that Mississippi is full of religous nutjobs who hunt down gays for their entertainment, she hit right on the spot.
Either she simply wanted to go the prom with her date (in which case the school is retard), or she wanted to make a political point and succedeed.
The fact that 'those people' and their 'tradition' are not any better than muslim fundamentalists and fascists doesn't make them right. Sometimes you have to stand up for your rights (an argument that you bring forth all the time when discussing Geert Wilders), and that's precisely what she did: she stood up for her right to be a lesbian and to have a date without being a pariah.
Maybe Rosa Parks shouldn't have stood up for her right to sit in a bus. I mean, she was totally not respecting white scumbags and their tradition.
Rosa parks didn't fight her battles over the heads of others, this girl does, she is self-centred enough to sabotage other peoples prom. Of course she knew this would happen.
Ser Clegane
03-15-2010, 16:56
Of course she knew this would happen.
She knew that the schoold would cancel the prom? Great job blaming the girl for a nonsense decision by the school.
Was there any compelling reason for the school to cancel the event? Would she have jeopardized the event in any way had she shown up with her girlfriend while wearing a tuxedo?
She knew that the schoold would cancel the prom? Great job blaming the girl for a nonsense decision by the school.
Of course she knew that it's Redneckstan. School wouldn't have had a choice in the first place because of parent pressure. Missisippi is you know, kinda conservative. You don't have to feel sorry for her, she got exactly out of this what she wanted.
Ser Clegane
03-15-2010, 17:21
she got exactly out of this what she wanted.
Of course there might be the slight chance that "what she wanted" was simply going to the prom with her date - not unusual for a teenager, you know...
Of course there might be the slight chance that "what she wanted" was simply going to the prom with her date - not unusual for a teenager, you know...
May have started like that. I am sure it would have turned out perfectly cute, I don't exactly have a problem with hot lesbians kissing in the first place, two women is better then one. Look at it from the perspective from the school, how many kids wouldn't be allowed to show up by their parents? Given the hate for gays in these area's it could be a considerable amount, it would be a major scandal. Faggot-school this faggot school that they might even get attacked. You don't have to like it but that is how it is.
PanzerJaeger
03-15-2010, 18:12
Why is it up to the 16 year old girl to be the adult in this situation? So the school adminstration is either homophobic or worried about the delicate sensibilities of homophobic parents? Its their job to act in the best interest of the child, not submit to local intolerances.
Why is it up to the 16 year old girl to be the adult in this situation? So the school adminstration is either homophobic or worried about the delicate sensibilities of homophobic parents? Its their job to act in the best interest of the child, not submit to local intolerances.
It could also be that the school wanted to spare everybody's feelings when they shut down the prom altogether, she put them in a pretty nasty position to be in. The school knew she was gay and let that go, maybe the school is little bit more progressive then it appears to be from this story. Or maybe not, never been there. Also consider the hint of innocence that surrounds the prom, kissing lesbians is extremely erotic, I would blame the place not the school.
Tellos Athenaios
03-15-2010, 18:42
Prom is pretty much the high of the year for them. So no, you are not going to spare everybody by canceling it. And kissing lesbians is as erotic or not as any couple kissing; it depends entirely on the perspective of the onlooker. So if that is even a reason for a decision to cancel the event because some couple might start kissing (nevermind now whether or not the couple is lesbian) means the school board should “grow up and get over it”.
it depends entirely on the perspective of the onlooker.
Yes it really does, that's the point.
Goofball
03-15-2010, 20:15
Going to your school prom isn't a human right, when it's a private function they make the rules, there's no need for social authoritarianism to make everyone conform. Although if the event is funded by the state then I guess the school shouldn't really break its rules.
(bold added by me)
Sorry, just had to pick myself up off the floor because I was laughing at the classic conservative double-talk you just threw in there. The school, by insisting that only male/female pairs may attend the prom, is the party engaging in "social authoritarianism." The tactic you used is a mainstay in the conservative anit-gay arsenal: trying to make it look like the homosexual community is trying to force everyone to adopt its lifestyle, when in fact, it's the complete opposite. The conservatives are the ones trying to make everyone else conform to their own morality and live life by their rules.
Sasaki Kojiro
03-15-2010, 20:18
Of course she knew that it's Redneckstan. School wouldn't have had a choice in the first place because of parent pressure. Missisippi is you know, kinda conservative. You don't have to feel sorry for her, she got exactly out of this what she wanted.
If all she wanted was to cause a fuss, you'd think there would be dozens of other things she would have done as well. But there are many people who only make a fuss over a single issue, and otherwise don't make a fuss. So isn't it odd to claim that she is just doing it to piss people off?
Goofball
03-15-2010, 20:18
It could also be that the school wanted to spare everybody's feelings when they shut down the prom altogether, she put them in a pretty nasty position to be in. The school knew she was gay and let that go, maybe the school is little bit more progressive then it appears to be from this story. Or maybe not, never been there. Also consider the hint of innocence that surrounds the prom, kissing lesbians is extremely erotic, I would blame the place not the school.
(bold added by me)
The school knew she was gay and "let it go?" What action do you believe the school could or should have taken against her for the offense of being gay?
And sorry, exactly whose feelings do you think the school is sparing?
Strike For The South
03-15-2010, 20:21
it's Mississippi
There still trying to figure out why there are people with a different skin color than them. Now girls can like girls? I can't imagine what those poor WASPs thinkning it must be hard
Rhyfelwyr
03-15-2010, 20:25
(bold added by me)
Sorry, just had to pick myself up off the floor because I was laughing at the classic conservative double-talk you just threw in there. The school, by insisting that only male/female pairs may attend the prom, is the party engaging in "social authoritarianism." The tactic you used is a mainstay in the conservative anit-gay arsenal: trying to make it look like the homosexual community is trying to force everyone to adopt its lifestyle, when in fact, it's the complete opposite. The conservatives are the ones trying to make everyone else conform to their own morality and live life by their rules.
I'm just saying that for the folk of Mississipi with their traditional beliefs and what not, the idea of a prom is that heterosexual couples go together like they did in the olden days. Tradition means a lot in these things, it's not like their banning lesbians from the club scene or taking part in public life.
You might not hold these values, but to the people of Mississipi, demanding lesbians attend a prom is as ridiculous as demanding that straights get to go on gay dating sites (idk if they can, but if they can then it's stupid). If gays are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more straight people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them (and we are talking about changing their way of life here, people are social creatures, and they have a right to have that respected in their public life, so long as discrimination is ever institutionalised).
Everyone is saying the school is being petty, but that's all we should do, not force them to change. Well, except maybe in this case if the prom is funded by the gov't, then they have to dance to their tune.
The conservatives are the ones trying to make everyone else conform to their own morality and live life by their rules.
Yes of course, but it isn't any different the other way around. What is wrong with people wanting to live in a conservative society with conservative values, you can always move to a different place, earth is a big enough a place for all of us why look for trouble. It's silly to you and me, but it's how that place is and it's what you can respect when you -yes- don't show respect their views on certain things. Why can't they have that? Why isn't it allowed?
Strike For The South
03-15-2010, 20:29
Calling Mississippi a "conservative" socitey is like saying the NAZIs had some old timey ideas on race
Mississippi is a terrible place
Boom Goodwin
Goofball
03-15-2010, 20:38
I'm just saying that for the folk of Mississipi with their traditional beliefs and what not, the idea of a prom is that heterosexual couples go together like they did in the olden days. Tradition means a lot in these things, it's not like their banning lesbians from the club scene or taking part in public life.
You might not hold these values, but to the people of Mississipi, demanding lesbians attend a prom is as ridiculous as demanding that straights get to go on gay dating sites (idk if they can, but if they can then it's stupid). If gays are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more straight people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them (and we are talking about changing their way of life here, people are social creatures, and they have a right to have that respected in their public life, so long as discrimination is ever institutionalised).
Everyone is saying the school is being petty, but that's all we should do, not force them to change. Well, except maybe in this case if the prom is funded by the gov't, then they have to dance to their tune.
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I honestly don't understand what kind of sweeping lifestyle change you believe the lesbian girl is trying to force on the conservatives of Mississippi. Please do explain it to me. As far as I can see, all she wants to do is be free to attend a a social event at the school she has attended as a student for the last four years with her girlfriend. She is not asking anyone to become a lesbian. No personal lifestyle change is being forced on any member of the student body by her desire to attend the prom. They can go on being heterosexual, conservative, Christian, Muslim, gun-owners, tea-totallers, or whatever else they want to be, and the lesbian girl and the ACLU won't care. All the girl wants is to go to the dance. She is the one having someone else's lifestyle choice forced upon her.
Sasaki Kojiro
03-15-2010, 20:42
Exactly. Let's say that we meet a conservative, traditional society who has as it's tradition that we don't exist. Are we then in the wrong for violating their traditions? Or are there qualifiers on the extent to which we should respect their traditions, one of them being that they don't interfere with our traditions for no good reason?
Rhyfelwyr
03-15-2010, 21:01
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I honestly don't understand what kind of sweeping lifestyle change you believe the lesbian girl is trying to force on the conservatives of Mississippi. Please do explain it to me. As far as I can see, all she wants to do is be free to attend a a social event at the school she has attended as a student for the last four years with her girlfriend. She is not asking anyone to become a lesbian. No personal lifestyle change is being forced on any member of the student body by her desire to attend the prom. They can go on being heterosexual, conservative, Christian, Muslim, gun-owners, tea-totallers, or whatever else they want to be, and the lesbian girl and the ACLU won't care. All the girl wants is to go to the dance. She is the one having someone else's lifestyle choice forced upon her.
I agree with most of what you're saying. What the school is doing is petty and wrong. This girls attendance at the event shouldn't really effect anyone.
But to these people it's a big deal, and at the end of the day it is their own private event. I'll condemn their choice, but I don't see it as anyones place to make them change. But if we do at least try to see if from their perspective - the prom is a rare, traditional event. Part of the tradition that reflects the culture of that area is that only heterosexual couples go, due largely to the Christian culture of the place. If you start brining in lesbian couples, you're turning it into something else, it's no longer a Mississipi school prom, it's suddenly an experiment in multiculturalism. Nothing radical to you, but it is for them.
Exactly. Let's say that we meet a conservative, traditional society who has as it's tradition that we don't exist. Are we then in the wrong for violating their traditions? Or are there qualifiers on the extent to which we should respect their traditions, one of them being that they don't interfere with our traditions for no good reason?
Surely this would only be relevant if it affected those peoples freedom in the public sphere. Private functions should not count as part of the public sphere, they should be free for people to be as prejudiced as they like, it's not our place to judge or infringe on that. Although as I said, I wouldnt' use my point here in this case if the prom is funded by the government, but I'm just raising it more generally.
HoreTore
03-15-2010, 21:06
But to these people it's a big deal, and at the end of the day it is their own private event.
No it most definitely is not.
It's a public event, run by the state school and funded by taxes paid by the lesbian girls parents. As such we have every right to tell them they're homophobic idiots and force them to allow gays at their prom.
Sasaki Kojiro
03-15-2010, 21:11
Surely this would only be relevant if it affected those peoples freedom in the public sphere. Private functions should not count as part of the public sphere, they should be free for people to be as prejudiced as they like, it's not our place to judge or infringe on that. Although as I said, I wouldnt' use my point here in this case if the prom is funded by the government, but I'm just raising it more generally.
Why do you say "judge"? Infringe would have more stringent requirements I agree.
Goofball
03-15-2010, 21:26
I agree with most of what you're saying. What the school is doing is petty and wrong. This girls attendance at the event shouldn't really effect anyone.
But to these people it's a big deal, and at the end of the day it is their own private event. I'll condemn their choice, but I don't see it as anyones place to make them change. But if we do at least try to see if from their perspective - the prom is a rare, traditional event. Part of the tradition that reflects the culture of that area is that only heterosexual couples go, due largely to the Christian culture of the place. If you start brining in lesbian couples, you're turning it into something else, it's no longer a Mississipi school prom, it's suddenly an experiment in multiculturalism. Nothing radical to you, but it is for them.
As has been pointed out, this is certainly not a private event. The lesbian girl is just as much a member of the school as any of the other students. She is not trying to change anyone else's lifestyle, or to exclude anyone else from attending. This is being done to her, not the other way around. If your only argument is that tradition trumps personal freedom and basic human dignity, then I suggest you simply haven't thought the matter through in a logical fashion. The question has been asked already in this thread, but is ideally applicable to your comments, so I'll ask it again: Tradition in this same area of the country previously held that blacks could not attend the same schools, play on the same sports teams, sit at the same lunch counters, or even drink from the same water fountains as whites. Should we have simply said "Oh well, that's their tradition, I guess we have to respect that."?
Rhyfelwyr
03-15-2010, 21:28
No it most definitely is not.
It's a public event, run by the state school and funded by taxes paid by the lesbian girls parents. As such we have every right to tell them they're homophobic idiots and force them to allow gays at their prom.
I've said before several times that if it is indeed funded by the government then they have no right to deny the girl entry. I wasn't sure if this was the case, if it is then there's no debate. My point was just in theory.
Why do you say "judge"? Infringe would have more stringent requirements I agree.
You're right, you can of course judge, we've all condemned it. Multiculturalism is taking its toll on me with its everyone-must-be-right-ism.
Goofball
03-15-2010, 21:32
You're right, you can of course judge, we've all condemned it. Multiculturalism is taking its toll on me with its everyone-must-be-right-ism.
Multiculturalism does not demand that everyone must be right, it states that everyone should be tolerated. It doesn't force us to take on the traditions of others, it only allows them to live along side our own, to the extent that they do not infringe on our own personal freedoms or conflict with the laws of our society.
HoreTore
03-15-2010, 21:33
I've said before several times that if it is indeed funded by the government then they have no right to deny the girl entry. I wasn't sure if this was the case, if it is then there's no debate. My point was just in theory.
You do raise another interesting question; is it just the state who isn't allowed to discriminate? Are we free to discriminate as long as everythign is private?
Am I free to put a sign that says "No gays allowed" outside my gas station when I go to work tonight? Would you respect my "tradition" if I did?
Rhyfelwyr
03-15-2010, 21:39
Am I free to put a sign that says "No gays allowed" outside my gas station when I go to work tonight? Would you respect my "tradition" if I did?
I think you should be. Let people power do it's thing. If people really are offended by this, they would boycott it. Otherwise, do you want to give all the power to the government to pursue social engineering?
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I honestly don't understand what kind of sweeping lifestyle change you believe the lesbian girl is trying to force on the conservatives of Mississippi. Please do explain it to me. As far as I can see, all she wants to do is be free to attend a a social event at the school she has attended as a student for the last four years with her girlfriend.
The right idea but the wrong place, just leave it at that. Why insist to be a part of their world.
HoreTore
03-15-2010, 21:43
I think you should be. Let people power do it's thing. If people really are offended by this, they would boycott it. Otherwise, do you want to give all the power to the government to pursue social engineering?
I don't see "government" as any different to "people power".
And I don't believe in "might is right". Whether a significant portion is offended enough to boycott it is irrelevant, as it will only effect a minority that isn't big enough to arrange a boycott.
Ser Clegane
03-15-2010, 22:12
Why insist to be a part of their world.
What makes you assume that she is some kind of outcast who is not "part of their world"? For all you know she might be treated as "one of theirs" by most other students who might not have cared at all if she had showed up with her date.
I did not read anything that would indicate that other students were upset about the idea of her showing up in a tuxedo - I only read about students who are upset about the stupid idea of canceling the prom.
I did not read anything that would indicate that other students were upset about the idea of her showing up in a tuxedo - I only read about students who are upset about the stupid idea of canceling the prom.
Guess you didn't notice the 'NO GAYS' signs. There is a time and and place for everyting but not there and not now.
Rhyfelwyr
03-15-2010, 23:38
I don't see "government" as any different to "people power".
And I don't believe in "might is right". Whether a significant portion is offended enough to boycott it is irrelevant, as it will only effect a minority that isn't big enough to arrange a boycott.
Well if you don't trust people power, and you say the government is no different from people power, then what can you do?
I think they should introduce a new rule for the party saying "No Bigots Allowed".
Meneldil
03-16-2010, 10:42
Haha, now, fighting discrimination and calling fascists fascists is labelled "multiculturalism". Ridiculous.
The gay haters deliver in this thread :2thumbsup:
Who are you reffering to? I don't see anyone agreeing with the school
Ser Clegane
03-16-2010, 11:26
Guess you didn't notice the 'NO GAYS' signs. There is a time and and place for everyting but not there and not now.
There was a "NO GAYS" sign put up by the other students for the original prom before the school sent the message across that the choice is a "NO GAYS" prom or no prom at all?
I guess I missed that indeed. Please show me.
There was a "NO GAYS" sign put up by the other students for the original prom before the school sent the message across that the choice is a "NO GAYS" prom or no prom at all?
Is of no importance for my argument
Ser Clegane
03-16-2010, 12:52
Is of no importance for my argument
If your argument is that "she was not welcome at the prom anyway, so why should she want to go there" it seems pretty relevant what the other students thought about here before the school screwed this up.
If your argument is that "she was not welcome at the prom anyway, so why should she want to go there" it seems pretty relevant what the other students thought about here before the school screwed this up.
Wouldn't she be welcome at the alternative party if the other students supported her? No 'fine we will organize our own prom you backward lunies'. Big fat no gays allowed sign instead
Ser Clegane
03-16-2010, 13:24
Wouldn't she be welcome at the alternative party if the other students supported her?
To repeat my previous post:
the school sent the message across that the choice is a "NO GAYS" prom or no prom at all?" might change the mood a bit.
Also, where did you read anything about a "NO GAYS" sign at the alternative party? The original article certainly does not mention anything like that (it does not even mention that there would be an alternative party:
Announcing the cancellation, the school board said: "It is our hope that private citizens will organize an event for the juniors and seniors." A private party would circumvent the legal issues.
To repeat my previous post:
the school sent the message across that the choice is a "NO GAYS" prom or no prom at all?" might change the mood a bit.
Also, where did you read anything about a "NO GAYS" sign at the alternative party? The original article certainly does not mention anything like that (it does not even mention that there would be an alternative party:
not my words
And in case you didn't read the article properly; the straight kids are going to have a private prom with a big sign that says "Gays not allowed"
I didn't read the English article, story also appeared on Dutch media.
Scienter
03-16-2010, 13:46
I feel bad for the girl, she's going to have tons of abuse heaped on her at school.
KukriKhan
03-16-2010, 14:25
Just so we all know that it isn't just "redNeckistan" grappling with this issue, HERE (http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/advocacy/marc_hall.htm) is a summary of a court case in Toronto, Canada from 2002, where one Marc Hall wanted to attend his Catholic HS prom with his 21-year old boyfriend.
Goofball
03-16-2010, 16:27
Just so we all know that it isn't just "redNeckistan" grappling with this issue, HERE (http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/advocacy/marc_hall.htm) is a summary of a court case in Toronto, Canada from 2002, where one Marc Hall wanted to attend his Catholic HS prom with his 21-year old boyfriend.
Good find there Kukri. Although it's a bit long, I would recommend that anyone who has an interest in this topic give it a read. I was impressed not only with the clear and well thought out arguments made by both sides, but with the respect for each others' dignity the opposing sides showed each other.
That having been said, this question is open and shut for me for one very simple reason: in Canada, religious schools are still part of the public school system and receive tax money. For that reason, they don't have a leg to stand on here. If they were completely privately funded, I would have no problem with them telling gay students they can't bring a same sex date to prom.
Good read, movie material
johnhughthom
03-16-2010, 18:53
I found this part interesting: "claiming it is the school board's religious right to discriminate. It's an old argument used to justify racial discrimination in the past."
What grounds would a Catholic school have for discriminating against somebody based on their race?
Askthepizzaguy
03-19-2010, 03:20
Nah, even I'll admit that this is petty. But at the same time there's no need for the leftist moral outrage, she could just suck it up and respect peoples traditions, the world doesn't have to change just for her.
She has done no wrong in simply asking for what is hers, which is the same rights and treatment as everyone else.
You wouldn't tell Rosa Parks that she's making a stink about where she sits on a bus, and that she should suck it up. It might be a little thing to you, but it is everything to the oppressed minority. It's certainly not your place to tell this girl what rights she's entitled to that she should ignore. There's every need for the moral outrage, just because you aren't the one being systematically mistreated and oppressed, that doesn't mean there isn't an injustice to be corrected.
Edit: Finally read the thread in its entirety, and as others have pointed out, this is a public school, not a private religious function. Everyone's rights are protected there.
Rhyfelwyr
03-19-2010, 18:35
She has done no wrong in simply asking for what is hers, which is the same rights and treatment as everyone else.
You mean the right to take a person of the opposite sex to the prom, the same way everyone else does?
lol, I don't really think that, but the school could see things that way.
Askthepizzaguy
03-19-2010, 19:05
You mean the right to take a person of the opposite sex to the prom, the same way everyone else does?
lol, I don't really think that, but the school could see things that way.
You mean the right to take a person to a public event, not a private religious meeting, the same way everyone else does? The girl was doing nothing wrong.
The school seems to forget that minorities deserve equal treatment under the law, and they seem to forget that discrimination against gays in this fashion is still illegal, that's why the girl contacted the ACLU when her rights were trampled on. Oh, but they remembered just in time to cover their butts and cancel the event for everyone.
Seamus Fermanagh
03-19-2010, 21:53
You can legislate changes much more easily than you can educate people to accept the wisdom behind the changes. Give it time. The lass in question has made her point -- internationally -- and it will add to the mix.
Don Corleone
03-21-2010, 04:20
This thread reads like the worst of what I've come to expect in political/sociological discourse these days. You've all made intelligent, well-thought out arguments, don't get me wrong...
It just strikes me that there is a presumptive view that everyone must embrace every idea the majority finds favor with.
Of course the high school in question was expressing bigoted behavior. What bothers me is what Seamus hinted at in his last post, and I'll undercore for effect... you don't win arguments by forcing your view on others... you create partisans that way. Democracies aren't about getting 50.1% of the people to craw laws down the throats of the remaining 49.9% population....
Catholic priests won't marry gay couples. Should 50.1% of the population (or some small legislative block) pass laws to throw them in jail for not doing so?
Or should we start a dialogue about these things?
WTF!?
you don't win arguments by forcing your view on others...
sums it up
PanzerJaeger
03-21-2010, 08:40
How many more 16 year olds are going to miss out on a normal, happy life until that other 49.9% figure out that they are children just like all the others, not spawns of Satan? These are real people being ostracized for something as unchangeable as eye color, not some abstract political debate.
How many more 16 year olds are going to miss out on a normal, happy life until that other 49.9% figure out that they are children just like all the others, not spawns of Satan? These are real people being ostracized for something as unchangeable as eye color, not some abstract political debate.
I just almost completely agreed with PanzerJaeger.
The girl is being oppressed by the bigoted organisation. She is born in that area, raised there, she been to that schooll all her highschool life, then suddenly denied the prom because she prefers the company of other females.
She isn't an outcast, she has as much right as anyone else to be there. It is just plain discrimination against her.
What is there to debate? The school was evidently wrong and both sides as said as much.
HoreTore
03-23-2010, 00:08
This thread reads like the worst of what I've come to expect in political/sociological discourse these days. You've all made intelligent, well-thought out arguments, don't get me wrong...
It just strikes me that there is a presumptive view that everyone must embrace every idea the majority finds favor with.
Of course the high school in question was expressing bigoted behavior. What bothers me is what Seamus hinted at in his last post, and I'll undercore for effect... you don't win arguments by forcing your view on others... you create partisans that way. Democracies aren't about getting 50.1% of the people to craw laws down the throats of the remaining 49.9% population....
Catholic priests won't marry gay couples. Should 50.1% of the population (or some small legislative block) pass laws to throw them in jail for not doing so?
Or should we start a dialogue about these things?
WTF!?
No, I don't care what you believe. You can believe that gays are immoral SOB's as much as you like, I don't care. But you can't exclude gays from public life, sorry. You have the right to not like them as you please, they have a right to exist.
I'm not targeting you specifically Don, it's aimed at the people this thread is about....
How many more 16 year olds are going to miss out on a normal, happy life until that other 49.9% figure out that they are children just like all the others, not spawns of Satan? These are real people being ostracized for something as unchangeable as eye color, not some abstract political debate.
I don't know, all I know is that it takes time. We still have political party's that exclude gays and women and this is probably the most gay-friendly country.
Scienter
03-23-2010, 12:14
Looks like she'll get her day in court soon.
http://cbs11tv.com/national/lesbian.prom.canceled.2.1556168.html
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 12:21
I doubt she didn't she this coming, guess she feels her sexual identity is the most important thing in the world.
And -1 for that school.
screw that... when there is injustice there is injustice. and that is one of the most important issues in the world... or would you say the same to a jew? i guess you think your religous identity is the most important in the world, guess what its NOT!!!!!! doubt you would do that.
or would you say the same to a jew?
What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 12:40
I'm just saying that for the folk of Mississipi with their traditional beliefs and what not, the idea of a prom is that white couples go together like they did in the olden days. Tradition means a lot in these things, it's not like their banning blacks from the club scene or taking part in public life.
You might not hold these values, but to the people of Mississipi, demanding blacks attend a prom is as ridiculous as demanding that whites get to go on black dating sites (idk if they can, but if they can then it's stupid). If blacks are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more white people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them (and we are talking about changing their way of life here, people are social creatures, and they have a right to have that respected in their public life, so long as discrimination is ever institutionalised).
Everyone is saying the school is being petty, but that's all we should do, not force them to change. Well, except maybe in this case if the prom is funded by the gov't, then they have to dance to their tune.
i mean... wtf.
If blacks are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more white people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them
especcially that part...
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 12:42
What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'.
no. it would still be wrong for them to exclude the jew. because in holland everyone can go to any school they like. and if the government would say otherwise they would be wrong also.
look i agree with you about respecting traditions and if this was not a school party but per example a special christian or redneck conservative party i'd say oke... well its private they can include or exclude whoever they want. but a school is public. its open for everyone. so you cannot exclude anyone.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 12:44
I don't know, all I know is that it takes time. We still have political party's that exclude gays and women and this is probably the most gay-friendly country.
right... holland is not at all gay friendly... and dont blame it on the muslims or the foreigners solely.
no. it would still be wrong for them to exclude the jew. because in holland everyone can go to any school they like. and if the government would say otherwise they would be wrong also.
Not what I mean, how many points would this have scored on the outrage meter if it was an islamic school, why don't you check on your own. Rome wasn't build in a day, these things go slowly.
from article: "That's how I was raised," she said. "I don't know how everybody was raised, but that's how I was raised, to always be yourself and be proud of who you are. And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while."
What's so unreasonable about that. I was so right about her.
Rhyfelwyr
03-23-2010, 14:07
i mean... wtf.
If blacks are going to be more excluded simply due to the fact that there are more white people, then that just sucks for them, but it's not their place to call on the government to demand everyone changes their own way of life to suit them
especcially that part...
Well of course. Remember, I was talking in theory, questioning what would be right if this was a private event.
I can't go to a Catholic school here, Protestants can't teach in them. And I don't care, no need for the moral outrage because we have to pretend everyone is the same.
Ser Clegane
03-23-2010, 14:10
I was so right about her.
Actually you weren't. Your claim rather was that she was a kind of gay activist who made a ruckus just to push an agenda.
Again, "openly gay" in this case did not mean that she was planning a gay rights rallye during the prom - it simply meant showing up with her date, which seems to be a key element of a prom.#
It seems that for you a person who simply asks for what should go without saying, is equal to an antagonizing activist who just wants to get spotlight at the expense of others.
Your claim rather was that she was a kind of gay activist who made a ruckus just to push an agenda.
Yeah and as it turns out I was right. Some people just can't take no for an answer.
But in Fulton, says Strassmann, the idea of a lesbian prom couple hit a nerve.
The school board said it violated their policy against same-sex couples at the dance.
And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while. <- perfectly reasonable, very telling that she can't live with that.
Ser Clegane
03-23-2010, 14:42
Yeah and as it turns out I was right. Some people just can't take no for an answer.
Any evidence?
Any evidence?
Oh common, how does the ACLU know it this in the first place, because she contacted them of course, 1+1=2. But what I really want to know, who is paying her lawyer.
Ser Clegane
03-23-2010, 15:53
Oh common, how does the ACLU know it this in the first place, because she contacted them of course, 1+1=2. But what I really want to know, who is paying her lawyer.
That was after the school did not allow her to bring her date. So, seeking help after your rights have been trampled on makes you an attention seeking activist? If that is your definition of an attention seeking activist, what is bad about being one?
HoreTore
03-23-2010, 16:04
What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'.
If it was a PRIVATE, CHRISTIAN school, then I don't care, they can be as bigoted as they wish(and they are).
But this is a public school, paid for with taxes. And that includes taxes paid by her parents, and herself too, if she has a job.
And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while. <- perfectly reasonable, very telling that she can't live with that.
So.... You'd be fine with Jews having to hide their identity when living in areas that doesn't accept Jews?
No, this is an injustice.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 16:09
Not what I mean, how many points would this have scored on the outrage meter if it was an islamic school, why don't you check on your own. Rome wasn't build in a day, these things go slowly.
from article: "That's how I was raised," she said. "I don't know how everybody was raised, but that's how I was raised, to always be yourself and be proud of who you are. And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while."
What's so unreasonable about that. I was so right about her.
i dont get what you mean. i cant account for other people only for myself. and im telling you that for me there would be no difference. i'm not saying i dont understand why the school did what they did. im just saying it is wrong, and by wrong i mean practically more than morally. they are a public school and so have to obey the law. thats it.
What's so unreasonable about that. I was so right about her.
the unreasonable part is that in a public place you cannot demand of people to hide themself. that is whats it. and i believe everyone should always be proud of who they are and never hide it. that is the thing i hold against nazi's doing a rally too, they act all tough but they are masked. if you are a real man than take the friggin thing of and show your face. samething for terrorists on execution movies.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 16:12
Well of course. Remember, I was talking in theory, questioning what would be right if this was a private event.
I can't go to a Catholic school here, Protestants can't teach in them. And I don't care, no need for the moral outrage because we have to pretend everyone is the same.
we dont have to pretend that everyone is the same. you live in ireland right? well if thats the law of your country, than its the law. wether or not that law is morally oke is indeed another question. but as long as that law is in its place one has to obey it.
besides your main reasoning can also be used against the school
the majority of the people is tolerant gay people, if the minority who is intolarant does not agree, well than thats their bad luck and they just have to live with it.
i dont think such reasoning is correct but its what you said.
No, this is an injustice.
It's a wasted opertunity imho because it could have been really cute, but it's not an injustice.
Louis VI the Fat
03-23-2010, 17:00
Proms for Poms. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/23/high-school-prom-lesbian)
A prom is an important rite of passage, and rites of passage are more pronounced in the US than in western Europe. It is a big deal.
Oh common, how does the ACLU know it this in the first place, because she contacted them of course, 1+1=2. But what I really want to know, who is paying her lawyer.Why, Ellen DeGeneres is. :thumbsup: (No joke, she is)
What if the school was Islamic, I bet the overall consensus here would be 'these things are sensitive these things take time'. But Fagony, erm...Fragony, in this case, I'd lambast the accomodating lefties for it. As would you.
One needs to be consistent. If you want to compare the school to Islam, then you would have to lambast the people who accomodate this school. Lambast those who when this school wants whatever they want whatever it takes they will talk.
One needs to be consistent. If you want to compare the school to Islam.
I don't, it's just to emphasize the position I am taking, that these things can be sensitive. Since Islam has special status in the mind of most lefties it's a good vehicle to drive my point home.
that is the thing i hold against nazi's doing a rally too, they act all tough but they are masked.
Nazi's can go screw themselves but I think you are having a hard time destinguishing the extreme left and the extreme right, the extreme left are the ones hiding their faces behind arafat shawls, the nazi's are the bald ones who are very recognisable. That is really the only difference there is between them, they both hate the jews and they are both socialists.
Rhyfelwyr
03-23-2010, 17:42
we dont have to pretend that everyone is the same. you live in ireland right? well if thats the law of your country, than its the law. wether or not that law is morally oke is indeed another question. but as long as that law is in its place one has to obey it.
besides your main reasoning can also be used against the school
the majority of the people is tolerant gay people, if the minority who is intolarant does not agree, well than thats their bad luck and they just have to live with it.
i dont think such reasoning is correct but its what you said.
I live in Scotland, and we've had state-funded Catholic schools since 1918, as well as the state-funded non-denominational school, which effectively means Protestant schools (well not not necessarily nowadays, depends on the area). Anyway, up until now, the main issue people had with the school was from a moral, and not legal perspective. I do not think it is necessarily immoral for different people to be seperate but equal. If that's the way people want it to be, then let it be so for them, instead of some activists (which this kid was really, even if she's right) demanding everyone integrate when most people don't want to.
And it's like they're asking you, like for prom, you can be gay, just don't be openly gay, just hide it for a little while. <- perfectly reasonable, very telling that she can't live with that.
Why somebody should have to hide his/her sexual orientation is beyond comprehension for me.
:shame:
What is the definition of "openly gay" anyway? It's not like they were going to the prom carrying a big sign with the words "ATTENTION: LESBIANS! WE'RE HERE TO PROVOKE YOU!" with flashing neonlights and loud music. No, it was just a girl going to a prom with her girlfriend. People would have only noticed it if they would have been staring at them.
:wall:
Why somebody should have to hide his/her sexual orientation is beyond comprehension for me.
:shame:
They don't have to do it for me I don't give a hoot, but these people do. In my opinion she isn't defending her 'rights', how hard can it be to respect the feelings of others. If she would be silently crying in a corner I would sympathize with her, since everything looks like she is looking for trouble I really don't. Don Corleone said it best, you don't win any argument by forcing your views upon others. Have some bloody dignity instead clawing at whatever that doesn't suit your very specific needs. How if I may ask, would you have reacted, I know how I would have so I have every reason in the world to judge her. She can be gay all her life, why does she demand this as well, leave some for the rest being gay isn't a right it's a sexual orientation, no more no less. Prom is a tradition like carnaval, no more no less. You don't have to go.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 18:56
I don't, it's just to emphasize the position I am taking, that these things can be sensitive. Since Islam has special status in the mind of most lefties it's a good vehicle to drive my point home.
that is the thing i hold against nazi's doing a rally too, they act all tough but they are masked.
Nazi's can go screw themselves but I think you are having a hard time destinguishing the extreme left and the extreme right, the extreme left are the ones hiding their faces behind arafat shawls, the nazi's are the bald ones who are very recognisable. That is really the only difference there is between them, they both hate the jews and they are both socialists.
i donty have any trouble at all. i dont care for extreme. or left or right. i just feel there is an inconsistancy here. and now you tell me all kinds of stuff of what i think and what i would do, but how do you know.
the point is simple there is a child of 16 years old and a schoolboard full of adults. and if both act immature than its clear that atleast the adults are more to be held accounted for. i doubt she is an activist. whether gay lobbyists who are exploiting this for their cause are being morally correct is something different. but you cannot demand of her that she hides who she is. what if the thing she had to hide was her colour of skin? or her lame leg?
i donty have any trouble at all. i dont care for extreme. or left or right. i just feel there is an inconsistancy here. and now you tell me all kinds of stuff of what i think and what i would do, but how do you know.
Nope no inconsistancy, you will have to look at the other side for those, I treat all religions with the same disdain but only critisism of one particular one leaves the lefties breathless with moral outrage, otherwise they are cheering. And I know from experience how these debates go, sorry if it doesn't apply for you but that makes you a rather rare one.
The point is simple, she can't accept that not everybody sees things like she does and she will wreck everything in her way to fulfill her selfish needs, she doesn't care about anybody's feelings only about herself. She wants it, and she wants it now.
Ser Clegane
03-23-2010, 20:13
she will wreck everything in her way to fulfill her selfish needs
And again: How did she wreck anything?
The school decided to cancel the prom. She did not present an ultimatum along the lines of "Either you will allow me to come with my date or I will make sure that nobody can go to the prom". This was solely the decision of people who rather cancel the fun for everybody instead of allowing a person something that could not possibly have ruined the prom for anybody who would not have chosen to have it ruined.
Your line of argument is in no way different from any argument that could have been made in the past for segregation.
you don't win arguments by forcing your view on others
This is also a very strange argument in this context
Firstly: What did she try to force on others? The simple presence of a gay couple? It seems to me that only the school is guilty of forcing a view on somebody. In this case for her the effects (not being allowed to come to the prom with her date) are much more tangible then the potential effect on others (having to "endure" the mere presence of an openly gay couple - and I have not even read of another student commenting that the gay couple would have ruined the prom if they would have been allowed to come)
Secondly: What would have been the alternative to "win" the argument? According to the arguments so far, just being openly gay already qualifies as "forcing your view on others".
Should she have simply done nothing? Not coming to the prom at all? Sitting at home and cry? Guess that would have really helped to "win" the argument and to convince the school that the next year they should be more tolerant ...
They don't have to do it for me I don't give a hoot, but these people do. In my opinion she isn't defending her 'rights', how hard can it be to respect the feelings of others.
For the school board, it is very hard to respect the feelings of others, so it seems.
If she would be silently crying in a corner I would sympathize with her, since everything looks like she is looking for trouble I really don't.
You're turning the world upside down.
Going to a prom with your girlfriend is looking for trouble for the mere reason that you're also a girl? How is that "looking for trouble"? The schoolboard people are the ones looking for trouble by cancelling the prom because they don't like a girl walking hand in hand with another girl. And why should she be crying in a corner? She has every reason to be outraged. Heck, I don't even know the girl in question and I'm outraged as well!
Don Corleone said it best, you don't win any argument by forcing your views upon others.
Who is forcing what on who?
You're turning the world upside down again.
Have some bloody dignity instead clawing at whatever that doesn't suit your very specific needs.
She doesn't claw at anything. She just wanted to dance with her girlfriend on the prom, like any other teenager of her age.
She can be gay all her life, why does she demand this as well, leave some for the rest being gay isn't a right it's a sexual orientation, no more no less.
She doesn't demand to be gay. She doesn't want "the right to be gay". She IS gay.
Prom is a tradition like carnaval, no more no less. You don't have to go.
Traditions can change too, you know. Societies evolve. Discrimination is no longer accepted nowadays. That's a good thing too, if you ask me.
I prefer a society that doesn't accept discrimination over a society that doesn't accept gay people.
And again: How did she wreck anything?
Not expllicit means implicit im this sort of speak, so the school didn't explicity state that they would cancel the prom otherwise it's called denial, so that means they hinted at it. Clearly enough for everybody to understand. She put her heels in the sand (is that even english) and so did the school. Why doesn't enyone consider the position of the school, what if they allowed it in a place such as that I tried to argue that before, it's a deeply conservative part of America what choice do they really have, might not like the general consensus of the place but it's what they have to work with anyway, she cornered them and cornered cats make odd jumps as we say here. If it is a tradition that is so important for her, why it so unimportant for her?
Traditions can change too, you know. Societies evolve. Discrimination is no longer accepted nowadays. That's a good thing too, if you ask me.
Sure but give it the time it requires. I am just as progressive as you guys when it comes to this and I think it is a wasted opertunity, but when you overdo it it becomes harassment. When you are overdoing it depends on the place, these people have just as much right on their way of looking at things.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 20:50
I live in Scotland, and we've had state-funded Catholic schools since 1918, as well as the state-funded non-denominational school, which effectively means Protestant schools (well not not necessarily nowadays, depends on the area). Anyway, up until now, the main issue people had with the school was from a moral, and not legal perspective. I do not think it is necessarily immoral for different people to be seperate but equal. If that's the way people want it to be, then let it be so for them, instead of some activists (which this kid was really, even if she's right) demanding everyone integrate when most people don't want to.
well i do have a moral issue with the school. i do think it is wrong. but im a moral subjectivist. so i cant say more about it. but whats more is that they are a public school so they are also practically wrong and that is what i hold most against them. if it is different in your country than in your country she would be wrong. but in america the school is wrong.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 20:51
They don't have to do it for me I don't give a hoot, but these people do. In my opinion she isn't defending her 'rights', how hard can it be to respect the feelings of others. If she would be silently crying in a corner I would sympathize with her, since everything looks like she is looking for trouble I really don't. Don Corleone said it best, you don't win any argument by forcing your views upon others. Have some bloody dignity instead clawing at whatever that doesn't suit your very specific needs. How if I may ask, would you have reacted, I know how I would have so I have every reason in the world to judge her. She can be gay all her life, why does she demand this as well, leave some for the rest being gay isn't a right it's a sexual orientation, no more no less. Prom is a tradition like carnaval, no more no less. You don't have to go.
her feelings arent being respected either frag. but that is besides the point. its not about feelings. it is about a public school denying a student of their school a public right. thats what wrong.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 20:58
Nope no inconsistancy, you will have to look at the other side for those, I treat all religions with the same disdain but only critisism of one particular one leaves the lefties breathless with moral outrage, otherwise they are cheering. And I know from experience how these debates go, sorry if it doesn't apply for you but that makes you a rather rare one.
The point is simple, she can't accept that not everybody sees things like she does and she will wreck everything in her way to fulfill her selfish needs, she doesn't care about anybody's feelings only about herself. She wants it, and she wants it now.
why are you going on and on about leftists... as if it is a particular leftist trait to be hypocrite. as i said care nothing for left or right. im caring only for you and me now.
and for your last argument. the school is doing exactly the same. but you donty judge them the same way as the girl. or are they in their right because their tradition is more ancient than hers.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 21:03
Not expllicit means implicit im this sort of speak, so the school didn't explicity state that they would cancel the prom otherwise it's called denial, so that means they hinted at it. Clearly enough for everybody to understand. She put her heels in the sand (is that even english) and so did the school. Why doesn't enyone consider the position of the school, what if they allowed it in a place such as that I tried to argue that before, it's a deeply conservative part of America what choice do they really have, might not like the general consensus of the place but it's what they have to work with anyway, she cornered them and cornered cats make odd jumps as we say here. If it is a tradition that is so important for her, why it so unimportant for her?
Traditions can change too, you know. Societies evolve. Discrimination is no longer accepted nowadays. That's a good thing too, if you ask me.
Sure but give it the time it requires. I am just as progressive as you guys when it comes to this and I think it is a wasted opertunity, but when you overdo it it becomes harassment. When you are overdoing it depends on the place, these people have just as much right on their way of looking at things.
just because time is required doesnt mean you may oppose it. or try to speed things up. how many time are muslims given to integrate into our society?
her feelings arent being respected either frag.
I know that and I could have been on her side. She has a whole life ahead of her without all that, why does she want this and out of all places there. She could let these people be, but I guess her cause is greater then the complexity of these things.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 21:47
I know that and I could have been on her side. She has a whole life ahead of her without all that, why does she want this and out of all places there. She could let these people be, but I guess her cause is greater then the complexity of these things.
she lives there man. she is a child she does not decide where she goes to school or where she lives. her cause is not greater than the complexity of things. her cause is part of why these things are so complex. you condemn her for being selfish and thinking only of her self, but you dont condemn the other side of the argument for being selfish and only see their side of it. in that respect it is debatable wether both are wrong or right. i dont believe either of them is wrong or right in that respect. the school however is wrong against the law. and she is not.
thats all.
she lives there man. she is a child she does not decide where she goes to school or where she lives. her cause is not greater than the complexity of things. her cause is part of why these things are so complex. you condemn her for being selfish and thinking only of her self, but you dont condemn the other side of the argument for being selfish and only see their side of it. in that respect it is debatable wether both are wrong or right. i dont believe either of them is wrong or right in that respect. the school however is wrong against the law. and she is not.
thats all.
I am not excusing anyone, I am just trying to bring in some nuance and situational awareness. If you really care about her cause, why do you think this will do hers any good, she will be detested a whole lot more for trying to make her cause everybody's cause rather then just being gay in any society.
The Stranger
03-23-2010, 23:54
she is not trying to make her cause everyone's cause. she is just fighting for her own cause. just as the school is fighting for theirs. and instead of accepting the sentence opposed to them, the school did not accept it and canceled the prom. so who should accept. it would have been something different if she still would have pressed the matter when the law had decided against her favor.
and i again i dont care for her cause personally. im not a forerunner in gayrights. i oppose it neither. only in this particular case i side against the school. they are wrong. that does not neccesarily make her right. though i do not believe that she is wrong in this case, given the information i have.
she is not trying to make her cause everyone's cause. she is just fighting for her own cause. just as the school is fighting for theirs. and instead of accepting the sentence opposed to them, the school did not accept it and canceled the prom.
Which is a pretty elegant solution when you think of it. Lawyers on all sides so this is big, can't say they discriminated they blew of the whole thing for everybody. Or do you think they didn't see this coming.
The Stranger
03-24-2010, 11:06
fragony stop going on and on about the sidepoints of this matter. you have no facts about it, neither do i. its not even relevant. you say you want to add nuance by also showing the other point of view. i already agreed with you that respect of tradition can also be important. and if the situation was different more critisism towards the girl might have been founded. but now, she did not pick the school herself. she did not think which school is the most traditional conservative school. there i will strike my fist for the gay cause. she lives there. her parents picked the school probably. even if she picked it, do you think she planned this whole event 4 years in advance? and here comes the most important part, IT IS A PUBLIC SCHOOL. PUBLIC frag... which mean it is open for everyone.
if i were to be kicked out my school because the racist uptown schoolboard richies did something to me that was out of line i would stand up for myself. i would all the way untill i would be either proven wrong or right by the court. and then i would leave the school myself. because if they cant deal with something the law says they should have to deal with than it is their own problem. i would not provoke, but i will also not be dealt with injustice.
i doubt you really believe that here mere presence is offensive to other people. i doubt that you believe it is right. you are probably talking about the lawyers and all. but remember she is a 16 year old child. she is not the most mature person in the world. but all this is besides the point. The school is public so they stepped out of their jurisdiction, they got corrected and then acting as if they knew what is best for everyone, canceled the prom. maybe a poll among students would have been a solution?
You are correct I don't think it is right. I don't have to agree with the decision to be able to understand it.
The Stranger
03-24-2010, 12:21
You are correct I don't think it is right. I don't have to agree with the decision to be able to understand it.
neither do i. i understand perfectly (oke maybe not perfectly but well enough) the schools reasons. maybe not so much their reasoning and the course of actions they took. i don't condone it. also wether their actions, of both the girl and the school are morally right i leave out of perspective. with lawyers involved it has become a matter of law and justice. and in that area i judge the school wrong and the girl not.
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