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HoreTore
03-19-2010, 17:36
Former NATO commander talks to the US Senate despite a hard case of dementia. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8575717.stm)

I think the Dutch themselves give the best rebuttal to this:


"It is astonishing that a man of his stature can utter such complete nonsense," Dutch defence ministry spokesman Roger van de Wetering said in response.

I can't even begin to express how happy I am that this is a former NATO commander.

al Roumi
03-19-2010, 17:41
Timely edit there! -if by HoreTore himself or a helpful Mod :)

HoreTore
03-19-2010, 17:46
Timely edit there! -if by HoreTore himself or a helpful Mod :)

It was done by a HoreTore who has learned from his failures and doesn't want this thread to go down that road.... ~;)

He acquired such wisdom during his stay in Bergen... ;-)

Seriously, thanks for the self-monitoring.

Adrian II
03-19-2010, 18:14
Sheehan must be a Republican. I wonder how soon he'll be caught looking for his keys in a men's room, pantsdown, in the company of a male intern.

Lemur
03-19-2010, 18:20
It's true, there does seem to be a disproportionate number of guys who get publicly freaked out over homosexuality who turn out to be ... oh, you know how this story ends (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/nov05election/detail?entry_id=58665).

HoreTore
03-19-2010, 18:33
Sheehan must be a Republican. I wonder how soon he'll be caught looking for his keys in a men's room, pantsdown, in the company of a male intern.

He has spent a lifetime in an almost exclusively male organization that doesn't like to blow the whistle(no pun) on irregularities...

Rhyfelwyr
03-19-2010, 18:38
Maybe if they sent some gays into the Serbian camps they could have infected them and reduced the enemy morale...

spmetla
03-19-2010, 18:58
What a moron, gay soldiers causing a massacre due to lowering morale? Lame excuse, stupid general, and an utter embarrassment.

Furunculus
03-19-2010, 19:08
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100030645/gay-dutch-soldiers-responsible-for-srebrenica-massacre-balls-one-of-the-finest-british-commanders-of-the-second-world-war-was-as-queer-as-a-three-speed-walking-stick/

Gay Dutch soldiers responsible for Srebrenica massacre? Balls. One of the finest British commanders of the Second World War was as bent as a nine-bob note

By Toby Young World Last updated: March 19th, 2010

I was shocked by General John Sheehan’s remarks about “open homosexuality” in the Dutch Army being to blame for the 1995 Srebrenica massacre. (He was testifying in the Senate against President Obama’s plans to end the ban on allowing gays to serve openly in the US military.) Not shocked by his bigotry, but by his ignorance of his own profession. Isn’t the General aware that some of the finest soldiers in the history of warfare have been “openly homosexual”? As Churchill himself said, the three time-honoured traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, buggery and the lash.

I’ll give just one example here, a personal hero of mine: Orde Charles Wingate. Born in 1903, he was educated at Charterhouse and the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, before being commissioned in the Royal Artillery in 1923. He had what I call “negative charisma” — almost everyone he came into contact with took an instant dislike to him. “As he shambled from one [office] to another, in his creased, ill-fitting uniform and out-of-date Wolsely helmet, carrying an alarm clock instead of waring a watch, and a fly-whisk instead of a cane, I could sense the irritation and resentment he left in his wake,” wrote Wilfred Thesiger, who served under him in Abyssinia. Thesiger, incidentally, was as gay as they come, yet he won a DSO after forcing 2,500 Italian troops to surrender to him.

At Charterhouse, the boys organised “Wingate hunts” and he would take refuge in the school library where he read the Bible. It was during one such episode that he came across a passage which described a “people against whom every man’s hand was turned, yet they remained bloody and unbowed”. From that moment on he became a passionate philosemite and it was in Palestine in the 1930s that he came into his own as a soldier, leading Jewish night squads to repel Arab raids on Jewish communities along the Mosul-Haifa oil pipeline. The military tactics he pioneered during this period — harassing the enemy’s rear with light infantry — were later taken up by the Israeli army and one of the irregulars who served under him was Moshe Dayan. Wingate became so committed to the Zionist cause he was dubbed “Lawrence of Judea” and his superiors became suspicious that he was passing on secret information to the Jews. When he left Palestine in 1939 his Jewish friends blessed him by laying their hands on his head. He was known to them as “hayedid” (the friend).

He was 37 when he arrived in Khartoum in 1940 as a major in the Royal Artillery. He was put in charge of an outfit that consisted of 50 British officers, 20 NCOs and 1,600 Ethiopians and Sudanese. He named this motley crew “Gideon Force” after the Gideon of the Old Testament and led them into Abyssinia to liberate an area occupied by 40,000 Italian troops.

Wingate was notorious for paying scant attention to personal hygiene. Kenneth Anderson, a Reuters correspondent who followed Gideon Force into Abyssinia, wrote: “He was certainly one of the most ruthless chaps I have ever met. Absoltely fearless, tireless and at times uncouth. He never bothered to wash or shave. On the rare occasions when we came to a waterhole, he would lower his trousers and squat with his bottom cooling in the water. But that was as far as he went with his ablutions.”

In the middle of the Abyssinian campaign, by which time he had already forced 20,000 Italian troops to surrender, Wingate radioed his immediate superior, General Cunningham, predicting that 500 of his irregulars could force the remaining 20,000 Italians to surrender within ten days. Cunningham was so appalled by Wingate’s arrogance he ordered him to hand over to his second-in-command. Wingate laughed and fell back on the old trick of pretending his radio was broken. Exactly ten days later he accepted the surrender of the Italian commander-in-chief.

He received no recognition for this feat, but, instead, had his rank reduced for insubordination and was given a desk job in Cairo. Shortly afterwards, he caught Malaria and, during a bout of fever, tried to cut his own throat. “You bloody fool,” said his commanding officer when he visited him in hospital. “Why didn’t you use a revolver?”

Wingate’s abrasive, uncouth manner didn’t endear him to his superiors whom he was fond of calling “military apes”. “Wingate would go in and be bloody rude to one or two generals and leave everybody thinking, ‘Well, I’m damned if I’ll do anything for that bastard!’,” wrote Thesiger.

It wasn’t until he was summoned by Winston Churchill, who’d heard about his exploits in Gojjam, that his fortunes began to change. “We had not talked for half-an-hour, before I felt myself in the presence of a man of the highest quality,” Churchill recalled.

He put Wingate in charge of the Chindits, a group of 3,000 irregulars in Burma, whom he led on guerilla operations against the Japanese, hundreds of miles behind enemy lines. Up until this point in 1943, the Allies had suffered a series of successive defeats for 18 months. According to Mountbatten: “The myth, the legend had grown up assiduously fostered by the Japanese propaganda machine, that the Japanese was a born jungle fighter and was invincible. It was Wingate who proved he was not. It was Wingate’s men who went in and showed that, man to man, they were superior to the Japanese at any game.”

One of the men who served with Wingate in Burma was Bernard Fergusson, who dropped a rank and forsook a desk job at General Headquarters to command one of Wingate’s columns in the first sortie into Burma. “If he told you that you could do something, you were at once sure that you could do it,” he said. “Not one of the men whom we left dead or dying, whether of wounds or more often from starvation, as we struggled on our way, ever upbraided him or me. They were proud of serving under him; they were proud of his very ruthlessness.”

Wingate had a wife back in England, but from the late 30s onwards he was always accompanied by Akavia, his civilian Jewish “companion”. In his autobiography, Thesiger described a typical evening meal for Wingate and Akavia: “I once watched the two of them roast a chicken over a fire. They had no pots or pans, no plates or knives or forks, and when it was cooked, Wingate, squatting on the ground, tore it to pieces with his teeth, getting his hands and face smothered in grease. Having finished he said: ‘Here, Akavia, catch!’ and threw the remains to him.”

Wingate died in a plane crash in 1944. He was 40-years-old, the youngest Major-General in the British Army. He was initially buried in Manila, but his remains were relocated to Arlington in Virginia in 1950 because the majority of the men killed with him in Burma were American. I would suggest that General Sheehan pays a visit to his grave over the weekend and asks his forgiveness for suggesting that homosexuals don’t have the backbone to be good soldiers. According to Churchill, Wingate was “one of the most brilliant and courageous figures of the Second World War.”

best response i have seen so far.

Sarmatian
03-19-2010, 19:49
This is great. Serbian parliament is preparing a document about Srebrenica, I must quickly inform them somehow that they shouldn't bother since it's really gay people's fault :laugh:

What a pathetic little man...

drone
03-19-2010, 21:36
And those blue helmets make them look faaaabulous!

Furunculus
03-19-2010, 21:51
And those blue helmets make them look faaaabulous!

roflmao! :D

Louis VI the Fat
03-19-2010, 22:36
Gays, gah etc.



~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


Srebrenica - the biggest post-WWII genocide in Europe - came about because everybody acted true to the most simplistic national stereotypes:

Paris was useless. The fanciest words of Europe, otherwise a complete no-show even as the entire UN effort in Srebrenica relied on Paris.
Beograd propaganda reversed victim and perpetrator, as it does to this day. (*waves to Brenus and Sarmatian*)
The Church, Orthodox in this case, blessed the mass murderers as they went about their bussines of murdering unarmed civilians.
The Hague gave preference to its own, selling out unarmed civilians then handing out medals to the Dutch soliders who were complicit in genocide.
Greeks volunteered in the massacre, in line with Athens' obstruction of the rest of Europe, as Athens is wont to do.

Washington ended the madness.


The final act of Europe's cursed twentieth century. Or, the entire century recapitulated in a nutshell.... :juggle2:



~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~



As for the Dutch military, 'gay' may not be the word, but several other rather less complimentary qualifications do spring to mind:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIxrCOM01lM&feature=related

Useless.


A paramilitary mass murderer can't talk like this to an American. Even if outgunned, or caught with his pants down, the Yank wont .... his pants like this but instead would tell that ...... to go .... himself and do his worst. Then move his men to stand with the unarmed citizens, and 'go ahead, but know there won't be a stone left standing in Beograd'.

Instead, of all the military in Europe, these wretched souls had come to rely on exactly the two most useless ones in Europe: the French and the Dutch. :wall:



Shame about the homophobia, which is the cause for the outburst, but otherwise the American is spot on about his depiction of the Dutch army in Srebrenica.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvoRh18ubE&feature=related

Brenus
03-20-2010, 00:08
“Srebrenica - the biggest post-WWII genocide in Europe”: War crime, Louis, war crime.

“Beograd propaganda reversed victim and perpetrator, as it does to this day. (*waves to Brenus and Sarmatian*)” No problem.
Beograd try quite smartly (what happen if the Serbs start to be smart now?) to reverse years of western pro Croats, Muslim and Albanian propaganda.
Hard job, but well, they can try.
Not that it will be successful as hard facts are always less efficient that good images and comments with music... As proved by your link...
So a laywer said that the Dutch Soldiers with light equipment would had done something else than die...
Ok, I won't carry on. We had this conversation before and you always come with "you will see"...

So, again: Louis, where is the Pre -war Serbian population of Sebrenica?

Do you follow Karadzic trial? I do. Once again, because this stupid claim of genocide, the Tribunal gave to this murderer a good defense line, basically, prove it.
All the video link you show prove it was a war there.
And a war crime.
In the heavy simplification made by media and the politics, the Criminals find easily matter to cast doubts and easily “break” the prosecutor…
And what happened with the arrest in UK of Ejup Ganic and the Western Hysteria (ok, for those still interested) about it did not improve the confidence I have in a fair trial…
High ranking Bosnian and Croats are not guilty, only Serbs… Even don’t speak of the Kosovo Albanians…
Now, what about Muslim against Muslim? Croats against Muslim? Nothing. No war crimes, no ethnic cleansing for the top levels…

“The Church, Orthodox in this case, blessed the mass murderers as they went about their business of murdering unarmed civilians.” Yeap, it is what churches do.

“selling out unarmed civilians”: Er, I won’t comment. It didn’t exist in Bosnia at that times, in no side…

“Washington ended the madness.” Ah, yes, in supplying and organizing the Croatian Ethnic Cleansing of the Serb population in Croatia… Or in covering the one organized by the K-Albanians against all non Albanians/bad Albanians?
Or perhaps in bombing innocent unarmed population of Belgrade, Novi Sad, and others trains…

“there won't be a stone left standing in Beograd'.” They did it in 1944, finishing of what Hitler had left…
Any way, that could be a good idea, as Belgrade/Beograd was very badly reconstruct during Tito…

“the French and the Dutch.” Poor Dutch, why so much hate…

Centurion1
03-20-2010, 00:42
dugo živjeti Croatian domovina.

that being said


What i think is a more pressing issue is whether women can serve in combat roles. Mentally i think they can handle it but physically it would honestly be much more difficult for average woman compared to average male and the whole pregnancy possibilities. One woman in logistics supposedly got her deployment orders but conveniently was pregnant three weeks later.

as for Gays, personally ill respect anyone who wants to serve their nation in times of war, doesn't matter to me what they do with others.

and as someone said on twc this general had a very bad experience in Vietnam as a young captain. Marine on Marine rape. It would disillusion you, neh? And in his statements he blamed it more on a lack of effective leadership than homosexuality.

Louis VI the Fat
03-20-2010, 01:13
Do you follow Karadzic trial? Sure. I'm learning all about his Holy War to avenge five hundred years of history. :book:



Former leader Radovan Karadzic has said the Serb cause in the Bosnian war was "just and holy" as he began his defence at his genocide trial at The Hague.

"I will defend that nation of ours and their cause that is just and holy," Mr Karadzic said in translated comments at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).
"I stand here before you not to defend the mere mortal that I am, but to defend the greatness of a small nation in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which for 500 years has had to suffer," he told the court.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8542297.stm

PanzerJaeger
03-20-2010, 03:55
Pathetic. I would expect more from a man in his position. I wonder if he feels that ruining his reputation was worth taking a crap on the gays....

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 06:27
What i think is a more pressing issue is whether women can serve in combat roles. Mentally i think they can handle it but physically it would honestly be much more difficult for average woman compared to average male and the whole pregnancy possibilities. One woman in logistics supposedly got her deployment orders but conveniently was pregnant three weeks later.

We have no problem with women(or gays) in combat roles, there's no reason why you should have any.

Brenus
03-20-2010, 08:58
“I will defend that nation of ours and their cause that is just and holy” And because Karadzic said it it is not true that to defend your nation/people/country is an honorable thing to do. WARNING… Trap…Trap…Trap... WARNING:sneaky:

So if Karadzic says the grass is green, we would’t agree…
Interesting…:evilgrin:

“I stand here before you not to defend the mere mortal that I am, but to defend the greatness of a small nation in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which for 500 years has had to suffer”: Yeap, the guy is a pyschatris’s case…

Sarmatian
03-20-2010, 10:21
dugo živjeti Croatian domovina.


I guess you meant to say long live Croatian homeland, but your syntax is completely wrong so it sounds something like living long for Croatian homeland. Try "Zivjela hrvatska domovina", it sounds much more natural.



And I'm not going to fall into Louis' trap. Srebrenica has been debated on these boards more than enough and anyway, this thread isn't about Srebrenica but about a homophobic American general.

Fragony
03-20-2010, 12:54
Quite the idiotic remark.

"Several countries - including Britain, Canada, Australia and Israel - allow openly gay people to serve in the armed services."

Hardly softies.

We have no problem with women(or gays) in combat roles, there's no reason why you should have any.

Viking chicks actually fight? Here they only do transport.

Centurion1
03-20-2010, 13:31
I guess you meant to say long live Croatian homeland, but your syntax is completely wrong so it sounds something like living long for Croatian homeland. Try "Zivjela hrvatska domovina", it sounds much more natural.

Using dictionary :shrug:


We have no problem with women(or gays) in combat roles, there's no reason why you should have any.

i dont have trouble with gays in military. But i do not believe most women can handle a combat load physically unless they are superb specimens. I dont care about gays serving whatsoever tbh.

Sarmatian
03-20-2010, 13:50
Using dictionary :shrug:
.

You mean your mother didn't teach you? I'd be pretty pissed if my wife spoke another language and didn't try to teach our kids... If I ever get married, that is :D

Viking
03-20-2010, 13:53
Viking chicks actually fight? Here they only do transport.

It might look like it. Here (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Furiks%2Farticle3252398.ece&sl=no&tl=en) is an interview with Tone Gunnes, who supposedly killed more than 20 Taliban soliders as a tank gunner (Google Translate).

Husar
03-20-2010, 14:48
Yeap, the guy is a pyschatris’s case…

Well, he's about as eloquent as Louis, so that makes sense to me. ~;)

Whether the general is homophobic is another question, I just watched the video and noticed the judge or whatever was asking the general with a very commanding voice and the general just responded with "yes".
He didn't even come up with it himself, he just acknowledges that the dutch leadership told him, that gays were part of the problem. Of course the dutch would deny that, do you honestly expect them to openly state that they do think gays are a problem in the military? The Dutch? openly? Don't make me laugh...

What I find disturbing about Louis's video with the dutch soldiers was that they were saying that they were sad and all that but not one of them looked sad, I even got the impression some of them were smirking, almost smiling, maybe there's something I'm missing but it was very weird.

Other than that, women and gays belong in the kitchen. ~D

CrossLOPER
03-20-2010, 15:15
I guess you meant to say long live Croatian homeland, but...
Calm to the last or just weary?

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 15:42
But i do not believe most women can handle a combat load physically unless they are superb specimens.

Experience shows your prejudices on this to be completely wrong. It also reveals a logical failure; the strength of the average woman is irrelevant, since only the fittest % will join the army, and they will face the same challenges as males. The army has a bunch of tests to weed out those not fit for service. Women would be subject to the exact same tests, and those who pass should have absolutely no problem with combat.

Anyway, google some pictures of female athletes, then tell me they're not strong enough for combat.


It might look like it. Here (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Furiks%2Farticle3252398.ece&sl=no&tl=en) is an interview with Tone Gunnes, who supposedly killed more than 20 Taliban soliders as a tank gunner (Google Translate).

"Looks like it"? What lie did you use to get out of the army...?

Anyway. The Norwegian ISAF contigent has a high percentage of women, much higher than the percentage of women serving in our forces here. Why? It's because women aren't subject to conscription, and so if they do join the army it's because they want to do something, and that usually means serving abroad. And yes, they operate our tanks, our BV206 guns, join MB patrols, do guard duty, etc etc. In short, they do everything a male soldier does, and they do it just as well.

BTW, I personally know 3 women who have served in Afghanistan. And Tone Gunnes actually served with a childhood friend of mine.

Viking
03-20-2010, 16:18
"Looks like it"? What lie did you use to get out of the army...?

Apparently not all countries allow women all the way to the frontline. Of course I have not been in the army, as a clever uni student I de facto opted out.

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 16:33
Apparently not all countries allow women all the way to the frontline. Of course I have not been in the army, as a clever uni student I de facto opted out.

I'm ready to laugh my behind off when your sorry arse is dragged to Skjold after your gradution.... :smash:

Sarmatian
03-20-2010, 17:10
What I find disturbing about Louis's video with the dutch soldiers was that they were saying that they were sad and all that but not one of them looked sad, I even got the impression some of them were smirking, almost smiling, maybe there's something I'm missing but it was very weird.

Other than that, women and gays belong in the kitchen. ~D

Well, by the virtue of being there, they knew what was happening. Srebrenica was supposed to be a demilitarized zone under the protection of the UN. In fact, Srebrenica was used as base of operations for launching attacks on the surrounding area constantly and Dutch soldiers knew that, but they weren't allowed to do anything about and were naturally bloody annoyed by it, because they knew that Bosnian Serbs will get tired eventually and launch an attack.

I don't really blame the guys. They were 2000 km from home, in a middle of nowhere, poorly armed, abandoned by pretty much everyone and they were supposed to die to protect a bunch of scumbags from another bunch of scumbags?


Calm to the last or just weary?

?

Centurion1
03-20-2010, 17:14
You mean your mother didn't teach you? I'd be pretty pissed if my wife spoke another language and didn't try to teach our kids... If I ever get married, that is :D

i know Russian. conversationally at least. Only my grandfather spoke Croatian my mother never really picked it up. I am impressed with your self restraint though.

Hore tore your just plain wrong. women have lower standards on the military physical fitness tests. I have taken alot and that point always annoys me they dont conform to the same standards. so i have to run a 5:45 mile for a perfect time and a woman has to run a 6:20

lol

Sarmatian
03-20-2010, 17:23
i know Russian. conversationally at least. Only my grandfather spoke Croatian my mother never really picked it up. I am impressed with your self restraint though.

lol

My self restraint? What for?

Centurion1
03-20-2010, 17:28
my little croat comment. well from what everyone is saying i tohught you would tear my head off. :wink:

CrossLOPER
03-20-2010, 17:31
My self restraint? What for?

I guess you're just a calm person. My original comment reflected the fact that you use the same "no no if you're going to do it do it right" attitude that I take when confronted with something similar.

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 17:42
Hore tore your just plain wrong. women have lower standards on the military physical fitness tests. I have taken alot and that point always annoys me they dont conform to the same standards. so i have to run a 5:45 mile for a perfect time and a woman has to run a 6:20

Yes yes, we all know that the american system is messed up, no need to tell me that. But over here, women go through the same tests.

And don't confuse the minimum entrance standards with the actual testing. The real testing takes a year to finish. The entrance tests are set laughably low, and I have no idea why....(you need to run 3km in 13 minutes here, I believe)

Centurion1
03-20-2010, 18:06
Yes yes, we all know that the american system is messed up, no need to tell me that. But over here, women go through the same tests.

lol. just lol.



And don't confuse the minimum entrance standards with the actual testing. The real testing takes a year to finish. The entrance tests are set laughably low, and I have no idea why....(you need to run 3km in 13 minutes here, I believe)

Its so they can get max number of conscripts than whip them into shape.

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 18:07
Its so they can get max number of conscripts than whip them into shape.

There are no physical requirements to be a soldier, except a medical.

Centurion1
03-20-2010, 18:17
You lied to me it must have changed since you were in. The test differs slightly for men and women and its for recruitment.

http://www.nato.int/ims/2001/win/norway.htm

scroll down to training if you dont want to read the whole thing.

Husar
03-20-2010, 18:20
It might look like it. Here (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Furiks%2Farticle3252398.ece&sl=no&tl=en) is an interview with Tone Gunnes, who supposedly killed more than 20 Taliban soliders as a tank gunner (Google Translate).
As a tank gunner...that means the tank carries the gun for her and she just has to push buttons...


Well, by the virtue of being there, they knew what was happening. Srebrenica was supposed to be a demilitarized zone under the protection of the UN. In fact, Srebrenica was used as base of operations for launching attacks on the surrounding area constantly and Dutch soldiers knew that, but they weren't allowed to do anything about and were naturally bloody annoyed by it, because they knew that Bosnian Serbs will get tired eventually and launch an attack.

I don't really blame the guys. They were 2000 km from home, in a middle of nowhere, poorly armed, abandoned by pretty much everyone and they were supposed to die to protect a bunch of scumbags from another bunch of scumbags?

Well, two things, firstly the UN should have done it a lot better, more guys, more weapons, more power in general, at least have the bombers ready on the airports if the situation is that heated up. And then, well, maybe the peacekeepers should have asked for more support or at least tried to talk to people, not necessarily the lower guys but certainly their commander, it's almost as if they didn't take their job very seriously. I don't know the details, maybe they did all that, I'm just wondering.

Tellos Athenaios
03-20-2010, 18:33
The problem is they did that. Perhaps the words “French (lack of) air support” ring a bell. In short it was a military, politics and logistics classic “cockup” on all levels.

You've got a few thousand angry muslims with AK's on one side of the line, a few thousand Serbs armed similarly with some tanks for added measure on the other side and then you've got those soldiers in between who can't turn their back for 5 seconds before a raid from either side is launched. And nobody wants to admit that, and nobody wants to do something about it because there is no mandate, no supplies or simply “pretend very hard that nothing is going to happen in the hope that it won't” attitude on higher command.

Tellos Athenaios
03-20-2010, 18:38
And load the somewhat heavy ammunition (in presumably a tight deadline [literally] if she doesn't want her hand cut off by the machinery).

Here's a US job description of that: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjo2/a/1812.htm

Brenus
03-20-2010, 18:52
“Perhaps the words “French (lack of) air support” ring a bell.”
No.
12:05: General Janvier authorizes air support, four hours after the request is submitted.
14:05: Two Dutch F-16 Fighters drop two bombs on Serb positions. The Serbs threaten to kill Dutch hostages and shell refugees. Further strikes are abandoned.

That is the problem; too much confidence in Air Support…

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 18:53
You lied to me it must have changed since you were in. The test differs slightly for men and women and its for recruitment.

http://www.nato.int/ims/2001/win/norway.htm

scroll down to training if you dont want to read the whole thing.

I suppose you're reffering to this, in particular the bolded part:


All personnel train in integrated units and are subject to the same standards and requirements for basic military training. Physical fitness criteria differ slightly between genders. The annual physical tests for officers were changed in 1999. The time limits on the different tests (running, swimming, skiing and cycling) are tighter for both women and men.

....Which unfortunately doesn't tell the entire story. What you should be looking at is the sentence before the bolding, as the physical fitness criteria(they're called IntOps criteria) are irrelevant, as I have stated already. That test is running 3km in 14 minutes, 15 if you're a girl, 15 pushups, etc etc. Piece of cake, and nothing compared to what comes next: Army service, the real test. You think the women get food or get to carry fewer stones during hell week? Think again. There is no "positive discrimination" during the year, no matter what battalion you're in. Everyone has to go through exactly the same things.


As a tank gunner...that means the tank carries the gun for her and she just has to push buttons...

She was transferred from Armour to the 2nd Battalion when she came home though, which is a mechanized infantry battalion.

Husar
03-20-2010, 19:06
And load the somewhat heavy ammunition (in presumably a tight deadline [literally] if she doesn't want her hand cut off by the machinery).

Here's a US job description of that: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjo2/a/1812.htm
That's a general description for a tank crew, I doubt she has to do all of that at the same time, AFAIK the russians use automatic loaders while the US tanks still have a loader on board, and the loader is not the gunner as that would probably take even longer between two shots than the automatic reloader.
Now I don't know what kind of tanks Norway has, if they've got the Abrams, they should have a loader as well.


She was transferred from Armour to the 2nd Battalion when she came home though, which is a mechanized infantry battalion.
Mechanized infantry, so the APC carried her stuff and she just had to jump out in the last minute and pull the trigger...
Even worse if she was the gunner in an APC...

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 19:14
Mechanized infantry, so the APC carried her stuff and she just had to jump out in the last minute and pull the trigger...
Even worse if she was the gunner in an APC...

"Unmechanized infantry" doesn't exist in the Norwegian Army, Husar, it's all mechanized.

Centurion1
03-20-2010, 19:22
can you honestly say that the average woman is as physically capable for combat as the average man.


That's a general description for a tank crew, I doubt she has to do all of that at the same time, AFAIK the russians use automatic loaders while the US tanks still have a loader on board, and the loader is not the gunner as that would probably take even longer between two shots than the automatic reloader.
Now I don't know what kind of tanks Norway has, if they've got the Abrams, they should have a loader as well.

the loader on an Abrams does not actually have to load anymore they are basically an extra gun and back up. and no norway does not have the abrams, no nation has the abrams we currently have in production tho some nations have older or modified models.

lol horetore is right no infantry walks anywhere anymore they at least have humvees. but some infantry units have their own vehicles (mechanized) and some have to requisition from other units (unmechanized) which is where the distinction comes in.

HoreTore
03-20-2010, 19:28
can you honestly say that the average woman is as physically capable for combat as the average man.

As I've said before, the average woman is irrelevant since the army only needs a small percentage of the population. And they'll take the most fit part.

We have women who have proved themselves capable of combat. It's nonsense to deny them from doing what they have proved themselves capable of doing.

And the tank used by us is the Leopard 2, btw. But I'm unsure whether we actually use those in Afghanistan, or if it's just the CV90....

Sarmatian
03-20-2010, 19:56
my little croat comment. well from what everyone is saying i tohught you would tear my head off. :wink: Nah, I'm a hippie leftie and I have a make love, no war attitude (which one beautiful Croatian brunette I met in UK a few years ago can confirm).

Generally, it was nowhere near as bad as was presented.


I guess you're just a calm person. My original comment reflected the fact that you use the same "no no if you're going to do it do it right" attitude that I take when confronted with something similar.

I don't really feel threatened by Croatian patriotism. Unfortunately, it's not that uncommon that blind nationalism is behind that patriotism. It's just that I don't often see Americans speaking my language so I get the urge to correct them.

Prince Cobra
03-20-2010, 21:56
By this logic the Thebans and the Spartans would have been the worst soldiers ever. The Theban elite corps were even formed in couples (male couples) so that they are encouraged to fight for their partner during the battle. I may simplify the things a bit but all in all, that was the situation.

I thought the general was a just very conservative (I consider myself conservative but can't really see a reason to go against gays/lesbians) and did not know he suffered from dimentia.

Brenus
03-21-2010, 08:44
“Mechanized infantry, so the APC carried her stuff and she just had to jump out in the last minute and pull the trigger...”: So the same job than a male colleagues I suppose.

By the way, I was in Mechanized Infantry and it is a little bit more than that.
The APC has the same role than a lorry and gives you a fire cover and power.
For the rest, you run, crouch in the cols mud, walk with you gear like all good grunts…

I suggest for people doubting of women capacities to equal or even been better than male to go in some Russian sites… Lidiya Gudovantseva, Lyudmila M. Pavlichenko, Lilya Litvyak, Katya Budanova, just for start

Furunculus
03-21-2010, 10:40
As I've said before, the average woman is irrelevant since the army only needs a small percentage of the population. And they'll take the most fit part.

We have women who have proved themselves capable of combat. It's nonsense to deny them from doing what they have proved themselves capable of doing.
.
for what it is worth, i am with HT here. as long as they meet the same fphysical requirements then they will be just as effective.

there was an israeli study back in the 80's that found that combat effectiveness was actually degraded by the introduction of women, not because they were less effective, but because the men were more concerned about the woman than getting the job done.............. but we live in a different world now and i don't see it as a serious problem in the British Armed Forces in 2010.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-21-2010, 13:26
for what it is worth, i am with HT here. as long as they meet the same fphysical requirements then they will be just as effective.

there was an israeli study back in the 80's that found that combat effectiveness was actually degraded by the introduction of women, not because they were less effective, but because the men were more concerned about the woman than getting the job done.............. but we live in a different world now and i don't see it as a serious problem in the British Armed Forces in 2010.

I agree that women should have the same opertunities as men, but I suspect you would soon discover that few women make the grade. Thus far only 1 women has made it through Commando into the Marines and she did on her last try, with "gender equalisation", i.e. she wasn't as good as the men. As far as male soldiers worrying about woemn; I suspect it is still the case. If you spend you life doing the most violent and abhorrent things you need some shred of hummanity to cling onto, in many cases that's not letting women and children be hurt.

Husar
03-21-2010, 14:21
“Mechanized infantry, so the APC carried her stuff and she just had to jump out in the last minute and pull the trigger...”: So the same job than a male colleagues I suppose.

By the way, I was in Mechanized Infantry and it is a little bit more than that.
The APC has the same role than a lorry and gives you a fire cover and power.
For the rest, you run, crouch in the cols mud, walk with you gear like all good grunts…

I suggest for people doubting of women capacities to equal or even been better than male to go in some Russian sites… Lidiya Gudovantseva, Lyudmila M. Pavlichenko, Lilya Litvyak, Katya Budanova, just for start

Don't worry, I'm just trying to live up to my new custom user title, someone has to. ~;)