Celts

[monkian]

Hi

This goes to all the whizz kid moders out there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Has anyone thought of making a Celtic Faction/Mod ?

A huge screaming woad covered mob would make a fearsome army to command/defend against.

It would also give the pagans more character.

Any one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[MonkeyMan]

Do you have any good Celtic names you would like in there?
Also which provinces/units would you want them to have?
Do you have any colour or flag preferance?

It would certainly be easy enough to replace say the argonese with a celtic faction in ireland, wales and scotland able to build clansmen and gallowglasses by the plenty.

Only the colour and banner/flag changes and possibly some of the renaming that would cause me problems.

You would also need to think about the GA's a celtinc faction would want and what religion you would give them, being as making them pagan would make all sorts of problems with agents and even the other units.

[monkian]

Monkeyman

It depends if people would want a 100% historical Celtic addition or one based on Celtic legend.

As the Celts didn't write anything down I suppose a completely historical mode would be impossible.

As Celts worshiped their own gods I suppose they would be considered Pagan- bit as you said that would cause big probs with lack of agents etc.

If it were a complete mod then I'd like Britian to be called Tir Na Og- The land of the Young and maybe have some ancient celtic princes as generals.

Pryderi was a famous Celtic king

http://member.rivernet.com.au/manxman/Celts/Pryderi.JPG

As King Arthur and Merlin are Celtic heroes they could be included too.

Sooooo much material to draw inspiration from.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[monkian]

I'll do some more research into provinces etc then

[ICantSpellDawg]

the celts were never really an empire - just a bunch of celtic regions - the peoples were never uniform, butonly shared similar roots. some provinces would be Eire (where the irish gaels lived) Scotland (where the scottish gaels and picts lived) brittany (where the Briton gaels lived) Galicia (northwestern spain - northern lyon) and Galatia (northern triezbond in the middle east oddly enough) - other areas would be the languedoc region in toulouse where they spoke occitanian which was a romance language with heavy celtic roots

there is a ton of stuff to look at, but in this game i do not think having a celtic faction would be realistic as it was only a cultural thing rather than a faction of sorts. i do hope that they make the celts a playable faction in the viking add-on, i would LOVE it - that time period would be more realistically portrayed with a celtic faction

[monkian]

I agree with the timeline point.

I also agree that the Celts were never really an empire but then again this game lets you play the what ifs of History-

i.e What if England conquered France in the 100 years war

or in this case

What if the the Celtic tribes were united

A mod or expansion that could let you try and unite the Celtic tribes would be excellent.

If anyone here ever read any Slaine comics then they could base it on Slaine trying to become the High King- or Horned God to throw off the Celts oppressors.

[+DOC+]

Why not use the alleged Burgundian faction, they don't seemed to be used?

[monkian]

Would their starting provinces be selectable

i.e Could they be set in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Brittany etc

Also, could the Burgundian name be changed to Celtic ?

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (monkian @ Nov. 27 2002,12:52)]Would their starting provinces be selectable

i.e Could they be set in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Brittany etc

Also, could the Burgundian name be changed to Celtic ?
All this can be changed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[monkian]

Quote[/b] ]There are some strange notions mentioned here
which won't make it into my mod
I'm not thinking about a 100% historical mod
but I'm not going to call Britan "Tir na n'og"
This would be too much for me I'm afraid.
I mean why would you want to call Britan
a mythical Irish name.


I only included the Tir Na Nog name if anyone wanted to go down the mythical side of things.

As Kind David did a Camelot mod whats wrong with using Celtic legend ?

I'm not saying you should do it but why say its weird ?

I mentioned Slaine in response to TuffStuffMcGruff saying that Celts werent really a faction.In the story the Celtic hero tries to unite all Celtic tribes under hsi command which could be used as Glorious achievements for them.

[Lord Krazy]

I like your idea of the glorious achievements.

I was wondering why you don't want to call Ireland
Tir na n'og if you wish to use this term.
This would be less wierd.
Being an Irish Celt I tend to find it
wierd that you wish you associate
my culture and lendgends to another
culture.I don't care I just think it is strange.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[ICantSpellDawg]

i didnt know tir-na-nog was an irish name either, i thought they brought it over with them from britan. alos, eire does mean ireland, it is Gaelic for "ireland" - all of the words in irish gaelic ive ever seen reffering to ireland have that word - united (or agreed)ireland in gaelic is "eire aontaithe", erin is the name foriegn irish give their daughters and it stands for Eire or ireland. tons of other evidence would suggest that people call ireland eire in a correct sense - you are right about the scots coming from ireland tho, scotus means little irish in latin (or so ive heard, never checked tho - will now)

[Wellington]

"you are right about the scots coming from ireland tho, scotus means little irish in latin (or so ive heard, never checked tho - will now)"

I always thought 'scotus' meant the little sacks beneath the prick - which I thought tended to explain why Scotsmen wear sporrans (cultural inheritence&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ...

... sigh, we live and learn ;-)

[ICantSpellDawg]

HAR HAR HAR

hehe

[ICantSpellDawg]

i just found this site; its really great - its goes over some old irish history and seems incredibly interesting

old ireland (http://www.ireland.org/irl_hist/hist1.htm)

[Lord Krazy]

Welly I think this sort of conversation
is a bit below the belt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So less of that scrot, sorry I meant scott bashing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Tir na bud http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Is fear rith maith le na droch.....

[fenir]

TuffStuffMcGruff,
That website is more just myth than researched truth. The truth is it's very hard to find anything true, and properly studied and researched on Irish History before the Christian Era.

Because like someone pointed out earlier, nothing was written down. Very hard to record a Peoples history if nothing is writtn down, heck we know more about the myecians of Crete ~3000BC than we do about Ireland Between 400AD and 600AD.
Almost everything we know about Ireland before the Christian Era, is simply guess work.

Anyway, after 1169AD it's all moot, as it had become a Norman/English Domain After they offered (MacMurrough Senior), the English King the Crown to stop the infighting.

MonkeyMan
You can't call Wales a Celtic tribe either(for one it was three main tribes), as ever since Roman times, 60 to 70% of Wales has been English-Roman territory. Remember it was only the North-West of Wales, (that area within todays Principaliy of Wales), that was so called Welsh.
That is why the only Concentric Castles in Wales ( built by Edward the I), are in the North West. The rest of Wales Province, was English.
Hence the didn't need to place troops in the rest of Wales Province.
Also the south was part of the brigantes tribe from around Britol and Gloucester, before the Romans.

monkian
Please Note: King Arthur and Merlin is a Mytholoical Tale written in the 1400's or 1600's or something, by a guy from Cornwall. it is not history. There is Absolutely NO evidence to suggest otherwise.
So therefore it's English or Anglo-Saxon legend. As there is nothing in any Celtic writings to say otherwise. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Though i do think you have the best description of a Celtic Faction....

Quote[/b] ]A huge screaming woad covered mob would make a fearsome army to command/defend against

Yep can't fault that.

Mind you if you can divide ireland up into 46 individual regions and loyalities, then I would play, then I just have to clear a path from Tyronne to them O'Brians from Clare.


fenir
*goes back to drinking Gin..*hic*i..ness*

Hmmm Should we put Lord Krazy in a Round room and atell him there is a beer in the Corner?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[monkian]

LK

I knew Tir Na nog meant Land of the Young and was Irish but I didn't think it just meant Ireland, I always believed it to mean all Celtic nations http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I think its unfair to dismiss Wales as a celtic nation- there were Celtic peoples in Britian long before the Romans arrived. As Wales in French is Pay des Galles- Place of the Gaules- Gaulles being one of the original Celtic tribes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Fenir

I know that the knights of the round table version of King Arthur was a romanticised version written in the middle ages but alot of the characters were stolen from legend.


The best source of Welsh legend is theThe Mabinogion (http://www.cyberphile.co.uk/~taff/taffnet/mabinogion/mabinogion.htm+)

[Lord Krazy]

I don't recall dismissing Wales as
a Celtic nation I would never do such a thing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
In Irish we call them the little Britans
(Bretonbeag) this is not derogatory.
I was just pointing out the difference in language.
The Welsh are very important Celtic grouping
and do a hell of a lot to promote celtic culture.
In Spanish they call it Gales too.
In Spain they also have Galicia
which is Celtic but their dialect
is like Spanish with a funny accent.
So just because someone else calls you a
Gale does not mean you are.
Celtic and Galic are two things not to be confused
in modern day terms.
Tir na n'og does not refer to anywhere it's just a story.
But an Irish one at that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
This is what I learned in school and read from books
I'm not saying I'm right I just want to give
you another opinion.I like the whole celtic mod idea
and I find this sort of discussion healthy.


Part 2
As part of the Brian Boru mod, I wanted to divide Ireland
and make the joining of the Clans the early goal
and Keeping the Danes out as the later goal
I was only planing to do a two period mod.

Then I wished to complete the Celtic Nordic one
after, using the Boru mod as the base for the
Celtic and Nordic mod as both mods are full of Celts and
Nordic people http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
This is up for discussion if anyone wants to help.
I won't be doing any work on this untill the new year

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[monkian]

LK

I like this discussion too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


I like the sound of your mod, please keep us updated I'd also be glad to offer any help.

And completely off topic

*points to post count*

69 Dude

[fenir]

Quote[/b] ] monkian,
I know that the knights of the round table version of King Arthur was a romanticised version written in the middle ages but alot of the characters were stolen from legend.


Sorry monkian,
As far as the offical research goes, all thats ever been done,(and what I have done) even by Celtic historians, there is no evidence to say that it is Celtic.
Even though some would like to claim so. I do know one "so called historian, who has for 22 years tried to prove that it is Celtic, but he has never been able to.
Even he admits, it is only a theory.
As far as Characters go, that is open to interpretation, Subjective, like most things.
The Whole story is set outside of a celtic setting and time period anyway. But even this can be construed as being the fault of the writer, but perhaps the writer was writing a story that he just thought up and wished to write down.

Also congratulations on your posting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I would however go as far as to dismiss The Celtic Welsh as a nation, mainly because they never where a nation. They where a group of waring factions within a very very small area. Certianly no nation.
It's like trying to reinvent the wheel with a hexagon. But this is all irrelevent, as it's recorded history that has been thrashed already.

The Best Source of History is the university library and their book/treatise exchange system. Oh and microfilm.

PS: Fenir has long learnt not to trust websites.
Usually we cannot determine the information source or the accuracy, and are usually written by people in self promotion, and usually from a coffee table history book.
(Thats historian for, some one is out to make a buck at histories expense). Happens LOTS
And not objective historical investigation.

fenir

[Lord Krazy]

The welsh have a football team.
That makes them a nation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[ICantSpellDawg]

yea, we should divide up the map into like a billiojn little tribal areas - i wish anyway, then let someone pick their eventual colors and religion of the people, i thought it would have been pretty neat, being able to pick and choos what religion your people are

off topic

[Galestrum]

another note on british celts

by arthurs time frame - the people of england werent "celts" they had been romans for 400 years within the empire, spoke & wrote latin, had roman baths, were christians, were administered along roman lines, and had been absorbed within the roman style of military - they were romans

the real king arthur, or the person(s) he is based off had alot more in common with caesar than vercingtorix.

[Galestrum]

on pictish language debate, i ctually have a book which pretty thouroughly examines that discussion.

Its called the age of the picts - in short it concludes that the picts have nothing to do with "celtic" culture/language in any way shape or form

in fact picts appear to have no close affinities to any of the ancient peoples - as if they appeared out of a vaccumn

I would make a bet that most people just assumed the were of celt origin just because there were "celts" in all the other parts britain, so why not make them celts too hehe

such "intellectual" theories have been seen before.

[Galestrum]

on scots, history shows that what would become the kingdom of scotland is made up of romanized celts, celts from ireland, picts and vikings (further into the dark ages) - this melting pot is what became the people scotland.

[monkian]

Fenir

I agree that the Welsh Celts weren't really a nation but the Welsh are a nation of Celts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Theres a local legend that King Arthur lies buried in a field in Catash Hill- 5 miles from where I live.

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (Galestrum @ Nov. 29 2002,09:17)]another note on british celts

by arthurs time frame - the people of england werent "celts" they had been romans for 400 years within the empire, spoke & wrote latin, had roman baths, were christians, were administered along roman lines, and had been absorbed within the roman style of military - they were romans
This is a generalisation in my view.
The fact that the Cornish and Welsh
still exist and speak their own language
contradicts this point.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Galestrum]

a segment of the population keeping a language alive does not contradict this - their beliefs, culture, way of life were drastically different in 400 AD than in 0 AD

if queen boudica walked into london in 400 AD she would stick out like a sore thumb

they were romans - england was part of the roman empire for 400 years - those people didnt think and refer to themselves as celts anymore - this modern day notion of the true celtic way of life lasting to modern times is romantic daydreaming

same thing with the normans - by 1066 they had absolutely nothing in common with vikings - they spoke french, lived as the french, took french names and fought as the french did - they were french

of course elements remain - a few stories perhaps, place names, some fringe groups maintain strong ties, but in the end a new people emerge or one group is assimilated into another


not to mention that wales and southwestern england werent entirely assimilated within the empire - they were on the fringe of the imperial power

as i recall they were both independent well into the dark ages/medieval period - so therefore they would be different

why do you think that the only places to speak cornish and welsh are in isolated areas and in relatively small numbers?

[fenir]

Quote[/b] ]monkian.
I agree that the Welsh Celts weren't really a nation but the Welsh are a nation of Celts

If you can find a celt in Wales, you would shock the world.
Enthically, culturally and in every other way, the Welsh certianly aren't celtic. Though I hear they are trying to reinvent the wheel by turning back time.
It's the same in New Zealand, they are trying to make everyone believe that we are all Maori. But most of us laugh at them. Including some are trying to make maori Composory, keeps failing though.
The only Celts left in the British Iles are actually in Western Ireland and I think from memory there are some in the outer herbrides Islands. They are, enthically, Celtic with some anglo-saxon, though live a Anglo-Saxon way of lifethey certianly aren't culturally Celtic.
Celtic themselves have long since been replaced as an enthic grouping of any note in the British Iles.
Saying the Welsh are Celtic is like claiming Wales is Roman.
But this is all bad talk, because it's not "politically correct". (What can I say, I am sure you brits have heard how us Kiwis are very blunt and to the point.) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Even when the DNA survey was done in the late 1990's, they couldn't find any celtic DNA that could be identified, though they did find Viking DNA, in Cumbria.

And remember, 40 to 100% of wales has been Romo-English not Welsh for almost 2000 Years. Romans took wales somewhere between 43AD and 85AD I think, I can't be bothered looking it up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The Celtic way of life and culture dieing out long ago.

By the way, Wales offical polictical status is now that of a self ruling province, not a nation.
But before that it was an English Province, Like Mercia, East Anglia, Wessux etc....

A branch of my family actually lived in Wales up until 1843 I think it was, in Prembrokeshire or Glamorgan. They had been there about 400 years. Can't remember what happened to them though.
And I use to live in Herefordshire. So I also have been to Wales quite a bit.


Lord Krazy

Quote[/b] ]The welsh have a football team.
That makes them a nation
Stop Confusing the issue http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

And the Cornish language as a Spoken language is considered to have died out over 100 to 200 years ago. Unless of course acedemics have again decided to try turn back time as well?
Perhaps we should all learn latin?

Galestrum
Yes, there are many books going many different ways. pro and Con etc... Truth is we have theories, but lack hard evidence. Just depends on which way you lean so to speak http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

On Scotland, yes it to was invaded heavily by the germanic tribes, (Vikings), same as Ireland and England, and to a lesser degree Wales. Most people seem to forget that it wasn't just England that drew their attention, it' was in fact all the British Iles.
But we all know this so we won't go into it.

fenir
Anyway this is irrelvent, as it is recorded history.

[monkian]

From www.bbc.co.uk/wales- A bit of info on Welsh/Irish language and their relation to Celts.

Together, the Celtic languages form a separate branch of the Indo-European languages, which also include the Germanic, Italic, and Indo-Iranian branches. Despite the encroachment of English - and French, in Celtic Brittany - six of the Celtic languages survived into the modern period. Irish, Scottish, and Manx Gaelic, which are referred to as q-Celtic or Goidelic languages, comprise one group; while Breton, Cornish, and Welsh form the p-Celtic or Brythonic group. Each group is linguistically distinct - Welsh and Irish speakers wouldn’t be able to understand each other, though the two languages are both Celtic. You can listen to the audio clips on this site to hear the differences for yourself.

Cornish and Manx Gaelic became extinct in the last century, but the others, including Welsh, are still in use. In fact, Welsh has been revived in recent years after a serious decline in the number of speakers during the 20th century. This trend of recovery is promising, especially since the use of Welsh was once discouraged and even suppressed.

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (fenir @ Nov. 29 2002,20:34)]The only Celts left in the British Iles are actually in Western Ireland
I am a Celt and I come from the south east of
Ireland.I do not consider Ireland as part of the british
isles neither.After spending 800 years trying to explain
this to our neighbours they still seem to miss the point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
If you look at nazi maps of the second world war
you will find lots of places with different names
and borders.These change because the people who live there decide such things, not academics and former colonial
powers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'm very curious as to what is the difference between people in the west of Ireland an rest of the country.
I'v been from Kerry to Donegal and they all seemed pretty
much the same to me, as the rest of us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

you see where I come from a song that
goes "it's a long way to Tipperary" seems silly
and ironic just like a lot of things I'v
seen in books writen about Ireland by people
who sometimes have not got any first hand knowledge
of the place.
I have a celtic name, I can speak a celtic language
I am from a country with celtic roots.
But according to your account I can't be a Celt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
What do I have to do to become a celt?
I thought I'd got the job already http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ICantSpellDawg]

basically what people are saying here is that the celtic genes died out a long time ago from a scientific standpoint, but what some people are having trouble understanding (not to be a jerk, but as true historians you really need to look at the people you study) is that the CUSTOMS and TRADITION of celtic lifestyle live on.

the people in the west of ireland like Mayo have traditionally been very different from the rest of ireland. in my opinion, their noses tend to be smaller for some reason (my family and my relatives have tiny noses and dark brown hair compared to the larger noses and blacker hair of the people to the north and north east. these are all just generalized statements that im making and in no way do they represent the entire population in any way, so save the self rightious "your a racist" accusation for a kkk rally

the people to the west and the people of the coastal citys i have heard have more of a germanic backround (maybe norse invasions and the ancient Tuatha du Dannan) while the people to the south have more of a norman/iberian (milesian and norman invasions) look and the people to the north have a more ancient look (firbolg and other earlier, non-celtic peoples). these ancient people that i allude to being the founders of these looks are only my reasoning for the looks, there is no real proof.

i personally think that the irish have some of the most interesting and best looks in europe, but thats me just being a pidgeon-holing a**hole again

im in a bad mood, sorry

[King David]

Just curious to know were all you guys are from. There seems to be a great deal of interest in the celtic culture.
This is my understanding from personal experience and research of the Celts. The Celts are tribal and tend to keep to themselves, very unacepting of outsiders for obvious reasons. Viking invasions that killed pillaged and raped celtic mothers. English invasions and most importantly Roman conquest. The romans took a band of brigands and turned them into citizens or slaves depending on how hardheaded they were (Rebells). The Romans civilized them for a short time and of course you know the history, Now they are rebels again. I had a very good example of this at a hotel were I was working the other week. A very large group of irish guests were celebrating a wedding. They drank all day and all night into the next day. As a man of authority in that hotel I asked them to cooperate the management in not disturbing the other guests but they would not listen. I did the next best thing I picked two people from their group out and asked them to direct their friends to an area of the hotel and they obeyed their friends like sheep. This was a very interesting psycological discovery for me. Not to put the Irish or celts down but just interesting to see the fruit of celtic culture in my own backyard.

[monkian]

I'm from Wales

(funnily enough)

[fenir]

Lord Krazy

The British Iles is simply a geographical name, not a Ethnic or Cultural representation.
The British Iles are made up mainly of...the Island of Britian, and the Island of Eire. as well as many other smaller Islands.

Anyway, back to the discussion.
On the idea of Culture, perhaps we have forgotten that Vikings controlled huge areas of Ireland.
Perhaps their culture had alot of influence? Well we know they did, because they where there for 100's of years.
Or the Fact that they settled in large numbers? They are credited with bringing trade in any noticable amount to Ireland.
Or that the English and Scots also settled Ireland in large numbers. Bringing Ireland into a closer association with Europe.
The Ultimate test is of course the differences in the Culture and way of life of each.
How are they different say to the English, Scottish or Welsh?
Or, how did the Celtic Culture fair with the presence of Christianity. Which would have changed it beyond belief. As we know it did.

On names, to give an example using my own family.
I myself have names of the origin of Hellenic, German, and English.
My brothers are named, after Latin, English and German.
While one of my brothers still has a name passed down through the generations, that of Bruce. To which family were closely related to, some 800 years ago, and to which my father before him was named and so on.

This all seems strange when family folklaw is that we originated in the Latin Roman Empire, (study still on going). Before moving to what is now southern Germany. Before then spilting up to form a German and English family lines, and then on to Wales, Scotland, and a small branch to Ireland, which later moved to the USA.
To this we can also add a French line. And now a Spanish line. All over 1800 years.

So if we take this example, and relate it to say Ireland for example.
Well the easiest way, is have a look in the phone book, and find which names are celtic. As there are lots of English names.
So if we then take this idea further, when can deduce that Irelands culture has had a dramtic change over the years because of the large influx of outsiders.
Now we know for a fact that most new settlers settled from the line literally drawn from Limerick eastwards, then we can now start to see where and how that culture and way of life changed compared to the West say.

Now we have to ask the Questions.
How did Celtic Culture survive, if at all. are we looking at celtic culture.
Then we start to think about the influences....
1. The Huge Power of Christianity.
2. The Vikings.
3. The English and Scots.
4. The French and Spanish.
5. Economic Changes.
6. Industrial Changes.
7. The Introduction of a Money economy.
8. Migration.
9. Immigration.
10. How much outside Contact was there?
11. Did the original Culture before the Celtics survive to any degree?
12. Changes in land use. eg: land cultivation. land Enclosure. Which have large effects.
13. Urbanisation.


And many other questons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

To give the simplest answer, they didn't. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Not even the English, the French etc... etc.... Survived with a culture that the started with. Heck they are still arguing about what Celtic culture is.

The French, comes from the Germanic tribe the Franks. How much did they effect the Gauls? Well, totally. Franks survived, the Gauls where destoryed.
Even the Germans, they have three main classes of language, low, Middle and high. And they where a much bigger people, less totally dominated as a group. but still, they have been greatly effected. Southern Germany is very different to Northern Germany.

We could also argue that the Irish are English, (yes I know, an evil thing to say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ), because their patron saint, (St. Patrick) came from England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But then, this would be an outsiders view, as perhaps an outsider can be objective? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But the ultimate question is obviously, what is culture?
Anyway these are just some ideas. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

fenir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Lord Krazy]

St Patrick was from France.The name sort of gives it away.
His family moved to wales were he was captured and brought
to Ireland.I don't know in which books you have read claiming he was english.I never heard of such a thing
before.
You have named a number of things that have influenced
and changed my culture.This does not mean it is not my culture.People in Ireland look more to their celtic
culture for learing and attitude than any other.
I did not read this in a book.I observed it
I lived it.You should try being a celt it's great.
All you need is hundreds of years of heritage.
The rest is up to you.

I only speak of first hand experiance.
If you have a book on how to be a celt
I suggest you get a more up to date
edition http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I don't see the connection between st patrick
and the celts anyway.
The english gave the chruch power in ireland
not the irish.It was a political thing not a cultural
thing.Where was the mighty church in the famine?
The vickings built my town but they got cosumed by local population just like the rest.Irish Celt I dont mind
it's all the same to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

"The British Iles is simply a geographical name"
Not to me.Like I said the people who live their
decide this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif The people who coined this frase
were british they tought this would be the case for ever.
They were wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
We are not british so it is a nonsence to call us so.
This is using your logic btw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
If 800 years of warfare hatered rape pillage
famine injustice degradation supression
ethnic cleansing and lies makes you
english, the you lot have lot of catching up to do
to become part of the master race http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif