This is the only place I could ask!!! [Archive]

Duguntz

03-27-2010, 15:06

Hello fellow EBers! this question have no legature with EB, but I don't have any account on the TW center. so I take the risk to be shoot by the mods here and ask it, as i assume that most EB fans are also fans of all the total war serie. What are your opinion about M2TW, in comparaison of AI beheaviour EB, and is the last CA creation Napoleon total War, worth it's price. I'm a fan of the Napoleonic wars (hehe, I'm half french after all!) and i wanted to know if the money I'd put in would result in good experiance. the grafic, i assume they're amazing, as the total War serie is always impressive on that (well, for me!) But what about the gameplay?

Thanks and sorry to post it on the EB forum!

Marcus Darkstar

03-27-2010, 15:46

meh MTW2 is a bit better AI though a bit. I dont play nearly enough MTW2 though to notice that much. Play mostly EB and NTW now.

Anyways while NTW is a standalone game it builds greatly upon the ETW game. AI is improved though inherently AI will do some dumb stuff but its more adaptable now. Even if you dont like the AI theres drop in battles (only enabled if both forces are relatively balanced forces), NTW is definitely worth the buy it has Napeolon's campaigns in there, plus Coaliton Campaign, and "Napoelon's Battles" which are basically NTW retreations of famous land and naval battles.

I tried to do a online campagin but I'd suggest though only doing that with a lanline buddy. Has some historical inaccuracy in the tech tree being a bit too advanced later in the game (aka last tier military tech has Iron plating which enables construction of IronClad Ships of the Line which werent around until 1840's) though its in the spirit of good fun.

Duguntz

03-27-2010, 15:49

Thanks for the fast answer! i looked at the trailers, and it lokoed a load of fun in there. I think i'll give it a try! how are the naval battles?

Marcus Darkstar

03-27-2010, 15:55

much the same from ETW but improved overall. Shot and the advatage of ships of the line over frigates more clearly noticeable. and the repair ability is nifty for those longer battles.

Admiral Nelson is a major headache in the French Campaign (as he should be lol). He has a large british fleet under his command at the start of it and loves blockading French and allies ports (which is major in mine since more than 2/3rds of my super large surplus is divered from trade thanks to a super large trade network i established with protectorates etc)

Duguntz

03-27-2010, 16:00

Neeto, sorry to ask so many question! is just that I didn't played ETW, so NTW is a major change for me!

Marcus Darkstar

03-27-2010, 16:03

lol if you dont have ETW then NTW will be utterlly mindblowing :P You didnt have to deal with the various bugs ETW experienced....

Megas Methuselah

03-27-2010, 17:58

Yeah, I enjoyed ETW for a while, though it was disappointing in many ways. I keep hearing really good things about NTW, though, but I'll still wait until it hits the bargain bin.

As for M2TW, it's not all that great. No. If I were you, I'd wait until the EB Team releases EB2 until buying M2TW and the Kingdoms expansion. AI's retarded in M2TW just like in RTW. I noticed, however, that combined with repeated political marriages and small tributes every turn, alliances can become very strong and solid; I played a crazy game as Scotland once, and the Dances & English were strong allies because of these marriages, in spite of the fact that WE SHARED FREAKIN BORDERS. Even in EB, it's difficult (though certainly possible, I do it all the time) to maintain alliances with shared borders. In conclusion, the only things I actually liked about M2TW were the marriage alliances. I guess the multiple skins per unit, blood effects, and re-vamped recruitment system were ok, too.

I really hope EB2 includes princesses in the game, even if only for the Hellenic & Hellenistic factions. Those marriage alliances are realistic and historically accurate, after all, and TOTALLY adds flavour to the game. Heck, we even see marriage alliances occuring between Carthaginians and Iberian tribes in history, too... Even if they're not included, they should at least be disabled (like they were for the Muslim factions), so they can be easily enabled through modding. PLEASE.

lionhard

03-27-2010, 18:44

What game are they bringing out next in the series?

Duguntz

03-27-2010, 18:52

What game are they bringing out next in the series?
Rome2 Total War (i hope!)

Marcus Darkstar

03-27-2010, 20:01

Rome2 Total War (i hope!)

God yes.

Then there could be a EBIII? With an all improved AI think about the wonders EB can be!

WinsingtonIII

03-27-2010, 20:32

I think the M2TW AI is better than RTW, but it's still not great. Megas is definitely right that the campaign AI is much better about maintaining alliances and accepting reasonable proposals, however, it can still be very stubborn. The changed recruitment (with recruitment pools) also helps with AI army composition, because it cannot simply recruit the same unit over and over, especially with elites. In terms of battle AI, it's roughly the same, however I've personally found that the AI generals are a bit less suicidal.

Of course, the biggest improvement in the M2TW AI over RTW is that it is moddable.

Duguntz

03-27-2010, 20:47

M2TW AI is moddable? gosh, that is a wonderful new!!! i can't wait EB 2 to come out... what about NTW battle and campaing AI?

WinsingtonIII

03-27-2010, 22:27

I don't have NTW so I can't tell you for certain. ETW campaign AI was decent in my opinion. It was a bit too passive and had issues with making full stacks (it liked sending 2 units at a time to raid), but in terms of diplomacy you could actually obtain ceasefires, maintain long-lasting alliances with borders, etc. I believe NTW campaign AI is pretty much the same.

ETW battle AI was pretty bad. Units tended to charge to melee far too often, sometimes after only 1 volley, the generals were even more suicidal (I think this was mainly because general's bodyguards are very weak in ETW as opposed to being the tanks they generally were in RTW and M2TW), and the AI couldn't even form a straight firing line (they bunched up). From what I've seen of NTW videos though, the battle AI seems a bit better. It actually manages to form straight lines, it charges to melee less often, and it attempts to flank. One problem is it tends to hone its cavalry in on your artillery and charge at it regardless of what's in way (like lots of bullets/canister shot), and general's are still suicidal maniacs. Also, the AI always attacks if you outclass it in artillery, even if it has a great defensive position and you are the one who should be on the attack, but I guess on some level it needs to do this because otherwise you could just shoot it up with your superior artillery (which have unlimited ammo btw). I definitely want NTW though, I actually enjoyed ETW, despite the bugs and issues, and NTW looks miles better than ETW when it comes to those things.

ETW and NTW AI are also moddable as well I believe, I know I've seen CAI and BAI mods for Empire, and I've heard about ones for NTW. My biggest advice when it comes to NTW is don't listen to the people who are still feeling burned about ETW, have never played NTW, and talk about ETW issues as if they are in NTW. ETW was a big mess in terms of bugs, but I don't understand why some people refuse to acknowledge that NTW is a superior game, it's like they want to be disappointed. That said, I'm personally waiting until the price of NTW drops a bit before getting it myself.

Megas Methuselah

03-28-2010, 03:11

Oh yeah, and M2TW measures your relationship with the AI factions, too. "Abysmal" or "friendly" and so forth. Moreover, the diplomacy scrolls state if your offer is a "good offer" or "bad offer," so the idiots in the crowd won't have much of a reason to complain when the AI won't accept 1 Mnai for a city. I find that these factions really help in the arts of diplomacy.

It's the small things that I liked about M2TW. Other than that, it's a pretty crappy game. But with all these minor add-ons, it has a lot of potential. EB2 is going to be freakin insane.

Megas is definitely right that the campaign AI is much better about maintaining alliances-

Yeah, but only because of the marriages. Their purpose is to cement alliances, and that's what they do.

WinsingtonIII

03-28-2010, 03:14

Yeah, but only because of the marriages. Their purpose is to cement alliances, and that's what they do.

I've found it much easier to maintain alliances even without marriages, although longstanding allies will sometimes betray you.

Megas Methuselah

03-28-2010, 03:18

I've found it much easier to maintain alliances even without marriages, although longstanding allies will sometimes betray you.

You're probably right, seen as I haven't played M2TW for a couple of years. But maybe it's because you can view the measure of your relationship with your ally (i.e. "abysmal" or "good"), so you know when to keep it happy and so forth.

Macilrille

03-28-2010, 11:56

WinsingtonIII

03-28-2010, 15:48

I have not played ETW and NTW as I am on my usual low income. However, I also have to disagree with the crowd here. MTW II KDs' strategic AI is only 3% or so improved over the Artificial Idiot from RTW as I see it. I have many a time seen a marriage allied turn on me. And the battle AI... do not get me started.

However, there are minor details like marriage alliances, Guilds, Merchants and Priests that I do like. And even if the Grand Campaign is a diplomatic mess, some of the Kingdoms campaigns are in fact quite good. I have played Teutonic and Crusades through a couple of times and they are OK.

EBII should vastly improve it though and it should vastly improve EB by being better than RTW in its own right; a marriage made in heaven.

BTW, from what I hear here I will not buy ETW even on bargain, but probably NTW- I too have a weakness for the Napoleonic era with Wooden Ships and Iron Men, and I look forwards to teaching those Brits a lesson when they come to claim the fleet of my beloved country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Copenhagen) and bombard my capitol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Copenhagen).

I've generally found M2TW diplomacy to be a bit better, but maybe I'm thinking of when it is modded, which of course isn't an option with RTW. The CAI itself isn't really any different from RTW, but again, it can be modded. Same goes for BAI, I know that I never said the battle AI was any better than RTW.

I agree with you about the Kingdoms campaigns. I got sick of the unmodded Grand Campaign very quickly, but I actually enjoyed the Kingdom's campaigns, despite their historical inaccuracies. The thing is, at this point you can get M2TW and Kingdoms combined for only 10 US$, and there are decent mods out there, so in my opinion they would be worth getting now, even before EB2 comes out.

Don't bother with ETW, the only good thing about it was the epic scale of the campaign map (which ironically was also a bad thing because the AI could not handle fighting in 2-3 entirely different theatres), from what I've heard NTW is basically what ETW should have been the first time around.

Megas Methuselah

03-28-2010, 18:54

Now that you mention it, I think I only ever played M2TW with the VanillaMod... :thinking:

Ludens

03-28-2010, 19:06

Of course, the biggest improvement in the M2TW AI over RTW is that it is moddable.

Could you explain to me what can be modded about it? I know there are several A.I. mods available, but I have never tried them (in fact, I barely played vanilla M2:TW). I do remember the fuzz made about Darth's formations for R:TW; and while they were good, they didn't exactly live up to the hype.

Duguntz

03-28-2010, 19:29

Are there mods solely for AI enhencement?

WinsingtonIII

03-28-2010, 20:07

Could you explain to me what can be modded about it? I know there are several A.I. mods available, but I have never tried them (in fact, I barely played vanilla M2:TW). I do remember the fuzz made about Darth's formations for R:TW; and while they were good, they didn't exactly live up to the hype.

Truthfully I'm no modder so I'm not the one to ask... I don't really understand the mechanics of what's going on. It's been awhile since I've played vanilla M2TW so I cannot tell you for certain if the difference is all that noticeable, but I would suggest checking out these threads for Lusted's (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=138529) BAI and CAI and the XAI (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=327395) mod. They should have some reactions, plus they should list what has been changed from the vanilla AI (although that information might be vague).

I also found this youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgErfCum8VY) comparing XAI BAI and vanilla AI. It does appear to show better behavior on the part of the AI.

I believe this answers your question as well Duguntz, as Lusted's AI and XAI are mods solely for AI enhancement. I believe most M2TW mods use one of these AI mods, though some tweak them a bit or make their own improved AI.

vartan

03-28-2010, 20:29

Reply to Duguntz: I'm not going to be modest with you. There is no AI. AI is artificial intelligence, and intelligence is all but nonexistent. Playing NTW, the computer acts as foolishly as it has done since RTW. On the bright side, you'll find plenty of people to play with online. Enjoy.

Duguntz

03-28-2010, 23:28

HAAAAAAA Vartan, so harsh words, that none the less must be accepted for thruth... the walls of my hopes crumbeled in front of the tsunami of the unexpected fact of the very definition of the abreviation -----> AI : Ain't Intelligent...

Drewski

03-30-2010, 00:17

Getting my custom-purpose-built new gaming rig on Wednesday, I'm like a little kid waiting for Christmas again :beam: ...it should easily play anything yet released at highest possible settings. :wideeyed: (I'm not planning on anymore upgrades for 4 yrs at least)

Thanks for the info in this thread, think I'll pick up M2TW first, give that a good few weeks playing time, then go for NTW, and not bother with ETW...

(Btw Sorry, if this sounds like a gloat post, just stupidly excited, which at my age is both silly, sad and good all rolled into one)....;)

Megas Methuselah

03-30-2010, 00:21

Thanks for the info in this thread, think I'll pick up M2TW first, give that a good few weeks playing time, then go for NTW, and not bother with ETW...

If M2TW wasn't so damn cheap nowadays, I'l tell you to just forget about it. :laugh4:

Duguntz

03-30-2010, 06:06

If M2TW wasn't so damn cheap nowadays, I'l tell you to just forget about it. :laugh4:

Don't say blasphemy! at least, M2TW will allow our grand-children to play eB 2 ( IF it comes out for them!) and if we're lucky, we might even be alive to see it's comming out (though we might be too cynil to play. age can be devastator!)

Megas Methuselah

03-30-2010, 07:16

Don't say blasphemy! at least, M2TW will allow our grand-children to play eB 2 ( IF it comes out for them!) and if we're lucky, we might even be alive to see it's comming out (though we might be too cynil to play. age can be devastator!)

By that time, the Aboriginal population will be the majority in Saskatchewan and Manitoba and will have no interest in European history... :sad:

Ah well. I have dreams of playing this when I retire. What a terrible old mushom I'd be, spending all my free time gaming and not passing on the ancestral family stories to the grandkids.

Duguntz

03-30-2010, 13:50

By that time, the Aboriginal population will be the majority in Saskatchewan and Manitoba and will have no interest in European history... :sad:

Ah well. I have dreams of playing this when I retire. What a terrible old mushom I'd be, spending all my free time gaming and not passing on the ancestral family stories to the grandkids.

Don't worry, my Cree brother, we will always have time to remember and pass to the nexts generations the tales of our forefather, to teachtheir philosophy and the nowadays lost wisdom within it, and we will always have time to do that, because we're a mountain of pride for our past history, as different they may be, still linked by one same continent! (And if we're really busy with the EB 2 miracle, well... we'll mod it to make a ''Native : Total War'' ;)

Macilrille

03-31-2010, 09:25

Kingdoms does have the American Discovery and colonisation.

In any case, I am pretty certain that is was my father's and godfather's interest in history that sowed the seeds of mine. The histories in history made me a historian and that is still what I find exciting about it.

Megas Methuselah

03-31-2010, 21:35

Kingdoms does have the American Discovery and colonisation.

CA's protrayal of the First Peoples in America is always pretty basic/bad (especially in ETW; their portrayal of the First Nations in there is downright insulting), just like their portrayal of history in all their games.

Still fun, I guess. Personally, I never bothered with Kingdoms, and I'll never play it. The only reason I'm ever going to buy it is to play EB2 with it.

Marcus Darkstar

03-31-2010, 23:28

CA's protrayal of the First Peoples in America is always pretty basic/bad (especially in ETW; their portrayal of the First Nations in there is downright insulting), just like their portrayal of history in all their games.

Still fun, I guess. Personally, I never bothered with Kingdoms, and I'll never play it. The only reason I'm ever going to buy it is to play EB2 with it.

With Kingdoms I mostly played the Crusades part in the middle east. I like their improvements on the Byzantine Empire's unit list specially the inclusion of Greek Flamethrowers for the faction.

Hooahguy

04-01-2010, 21:56

with regard to NTW, i only trust Darth's opinion. his opinino exactly matched mine for every game after RTW, and managed to fix them up quite nicely. still some holes in ETW, though.
so check with his no bull assessment, then make your decision.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=337315

Drewski

04-03-2010, 01:12

Can't really agree in principle with Darth...Played NTW for about 26hrs playing time now as GB.

Yes the graphics are amazing (I have everything at max and Ultra Size units). Sea battles are a little frustraing, but are NOT easy, especially against an roughly even enemy (I've lost a few already, partly because of the ais perfect control of manoeuvering, which has always been there, but is much more evident in a water enviroment with no obstacles). I agree some ships have unrealistically fast turn rate.

As for the ai, I just didn't really see what he reported. The ai in a reasonably balanced battle, 9/10 times advanced sensibly up to musket range, then stood there firing, while trying many times to flank with some units. It also held reserves back in many cases. It did absolutely NOT just charge everyone into melee, ever. It kept cannons where they were set up, as long as targets were in range. It did however, occasionally go on insane cavalry charges, mostly when I left Cannon in the front row, but again not even in the majority of cases.

When I finally got up the nerve to make a foray into the Paris area (with a 20 unit rougly 3000 men strong army), it came out to meet me in the field. I won (just)but lost around 60% of my army (this on Medium battle too). When another 3/4 stack approached from the other side of Paris, I had no option but to flee and flee all the way back to my fortress in Brittany.

The campaign strategy is also a lot tougher than e.g. RTW, or EB. Only 1 global tax rate (split into 2- One for Rich, One for Poor), makes keeping order tougher. There are many nice little touches and additions, far too many to list here, and anyway this isn't a review.;)

I just wanted to post this, because if I'd read Darth's review before deciding whether to buy or not, then I probably wouldn't have got the game. It's by no means anywhere near perefct, and yes the ai is still lacking, but overall a very decent game, in the opinion of someone who's pretty hard to please.

vartan

04-03-2010, 01:48

Drewski the game you and I know as NTW isn't the game Darth knows as NTW. If I'm not mistaken, the game has various numbers after the version number 1.xxxx and so on. I'm sure as the game has released higher versions it has changed drastically. The enemy has gotten stronger. It changes your perception of things, you know?

Drewski

04-03-2010, 02:12

Agreed completely, That actually crossed my mind after reading his whole post again (plus the fact that I've had this new rig for around 60hrs now, and slept about 12 of those 60 hrs...well you know how it goes ;))

Started to read the whole of that thread, and it does seem that the majority of people who'd actually played the commercial release hadn't seen what he saw, and had seen what I and seemingly you have...i.e. a reasonably decent battle ai. There's no way otherwise, that I'd lose 60% of my units, when the odds were in my favor.

He also kept on about there only being versions of single line formations. I'm sure you can confirm that isn't true, there are various 2 and 3 line setups too