Attack on the Moscow metro

[Banquo's Ghost]

There has been a couple of explosions on the Metro in Moscow (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8592190.stm), killing at least 37 people. The early indications are that these were deliberately triggered explosions, leading to suspicions that it was a terrorist attack.


At least 37 people have been killed in two suspected suicide bombings on the Moscow Metro system at the peak of the morning rush hour, officials have said.
The first blast occurred in the central Lubyanka station at 0756 (0356 GMT). Police said the dead included 14 people inside a train and 11 on the platform.
The second explosion came about 40 minutes later at the Park Kultury station, where 12 people were killed.

Metropolitan transport systems are entirely vulnerable to this kind of attack. The terror of travellers caught in such an incident doesn't bear thinking about.

My thoughts go out to the bereaved and the injured. I imagine we'll learn more during the day.

[PanzerJaeger]

Who in the world could possibly be responsible for such a barbaric act? :thinking2:

[Fragony]

Ain't that great, rip dead, speedy recovery for the wounded.

[KukriKhan]

Security analysts BLAME (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/29/russia.moscow.suicide.bombers/) Chechen "Black Widows".

[The Wizard]

It's very likely, but I feel I must point out the speed with which the media has copypasted Russia's knee-jerk assumption it has to be Chechens. Moscow has an interest in such a claim, after all.

But again, it's got the highest likelihood, I've got to admit.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Who in the world could possibly be responsible for such a barbaric act? :thinking2:

Anybody with an axe to grind against the Russians.

E.G.: Chechan separtists, Georgian nationalists, Putinistas seeking an opening to give their strong man more power for the greater good....

Chechan "Black Widow" operations seem most likely given recent threats and past operational history, but.....

[HoreTore]

Who in the world could possibly be responsible for such a barbaric act? :thinking2:

A people who have been subject to some of the vilest war crimes of the modern age for the last decades, perhaps?

Russia doesn't get the moral high ground because of this. This crime is nothing compared to the Russian crimes.

Or.... It could be some lunatic fringe of Russians, conspiracy nuts who thinks that such an act is actually a good thing for the russian people, for various reasons... Kinda like a Russian Timothy McVeigh, I guess...

[Tristuskhan]

Russia doesn't get the moral high ground because of this. This crime is nothing compared to the Russian crimes.

Blame the Caucasian Vendetta(tm!) too . There can't be no moral high ground on the side of a soldier of the vendetta. Different rules. People tend to forget Caucasus is a land of high traditions. High and noble traditions indeed, a bit erh, excacerbated (sp) by an horrid history. They've beeng gifted the sweet tradition of Wahhabism by Saudi Arabia (RIP Caucasian Sufism, that's some hell of a loss). Now they try to gift the exquisite tradition of vendetta to Russia.

Brrrr... it's cold down there.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Are the Caucasus and the Balkans on the same latitude more or less?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Are the Caucasus and the Balkans on the same latitude more or less?Chechnya, Kosovo and Detroit are all on the exact same latitude.


Could we be on to something here...?

:juggle2:

[PanzerJaeger]

A people who have been subject to some of the vilest war crimes of the modern age for the last decades, perhaps?

Russia doesn't get the moral high ground because of this. This crime is nothing compared to the Russian crimes.

The Second Chechen War is over by every measure, and the Chechens lost. This is just heinous Muslim terrorism with no realistic political or strategic goals other than to inflict death and misery on as many innocents as possible.

[Tristuskhan]

The Second Chechen War is over by every measure, and the Chechens lost.

If it is so obvious why don' t you explain them?

[Megas Methuselah]

The Second Chechen War is over by every measure, and the Chechens lost. This is just heinous Muslim terrorism with no realistic political or strategic goals other than to inflict death and misery on as many innocents as possible.

Freedom fighters, I say. Just like the French resistance after the Nazis overran their country in WW2, right?

[Fragony]

Freedom fighters, I say. Just like the French resistance after the Nazis overran their country in WW2, right?

Yeah freedom fighters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG1aZSckpiw

[HoreTore]

The Second Chechen War is over by every measure, and the Chechens lost.

Really?

Better tell the Russians, so they can put an end to the abuse, punishment and terrorism they perform down there.

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, but killing innocents isn't really the answer. Kill Putin, Medvedev or some general who was in charge, don't kill people going to work to provide for their families. There is no excuse or moral high ground for the terrorists.

[Megas Methuselah]

Fire with fire?

[Husar]

The Second Chechen War is over by every measure, and the Chechens lost.
I didn't know you Americans were that fond of russian propaganda, you learn something new every day.


Yeah, but killing innocents isn't really the answer. Kill Putin, Medvedev or some general who was in charge, don't kill people going to work to provide for their families. There is no excuse or moral high ground for the terrorists.
And that, I'm very sorry for all the russians who lost their life or family members in these acts of terrorism.
You can't blame all Russians for what their government does in Chechnya, neither can you blame all Muslims for what their terrorist does in Moscow.
Terrorists aren't even elected usually. (No, that's a government consisting of some people who are/were terrorists, PJ and Frag)

[PanzerJaeger]

Really?

Better tell the Russians, so they can put an end to the abuse, punishment and terrorism they perform down there.

There is no doubt that the war got ugly on both sides, but the war is over. Russia has pulled out the vast majority of its troops. The counter-insurgency operation ended last April and negotiations commenced. Zakayev, the Chechen separatist leader, declared an end to the conflict last August. Russia is spending billions to rebuild Grozny and the rest of the region. Reputable Chechen leaders are working within the Russian government to promote the interests of the Chechen people. Only a tiny group of fringe fanatics remain in the Northern Caucauses. The world has moved on. If these Muslim women wanted to die for Chechen independence, they had 10 years to do so. At this point, they have no viable strategic justifications for the carnage they have wrought, and their supporters and enablers deserve nothing less than the kind of justice that can only be found in Russia.


Freedom fighters, I say. Just like the French resistance after the Nazis overran their country in WW2, right?

The French Resistance did not target civilians. Further, the French had a realistic expectation of victory as the war continued on in other theatres after the fall of France. In contrast, the war in Chechnya is over, with even the Chechen's de Gaulle, Zakayev, declaring as much. These people are not freedom fighters, they are not even true Chechens. They are the same fanatical Muslim types that hit NYC, London, Madrid, Bali and Beslan and that will refuse to accept reality until they are exterminated.

[Fragony]

Terrorists aren't even elected usually. (No, that's a government consisting of some people who are/were terrorists, PJ and Frag)

Did I say anything?

[Tristuskhan]

Russia is spending billions to rebuild Grozny and the rest of the region. Reputable Chechen leaders are working within the Russian government to promote the interests of the Chechen people.

Are you serious? Do you only know who are Kadyrov and his clique? Do you remember the circumstances of his "election" and have you heard of the level of corruption in Chechnya?


If these Muslim women wanted to die for Chechen independence, they had 10 years to do so. At this point, they have no viable strategic justifications for the carnage they have wrought

Vendetta needs no viable strategic justifications, and ten years is still a short delay for the achievement of vengeance.


and their supporters and enablers deserve nothing less than the kind of justice that can only be found in Russia

I'm definitely sorry to agree. But things are much more complex that you seem to believe.

[Husar]

Did I say anything?

Obviously not because I struck you down like an elephant that steps on a flower before you even got a chance to say anything, hah! ~D

[Strike For The South]

Yeah, but killing innocents isn't really the answer. Kill Putin, Medvedev or some general who was in charge, don't kill people going to work to provide for their families. There is no excuse or moral high ground for the terrorists.

That's why there terrorists.....

[HoreTore]

Russia is spending billions to rebuild Grozny and the rest of the region. Reputable Chechen leaders are working within the Russian government to promote the interests of the Chechen people.

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Tristuskhan]

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

Hore Tore, I understand that since one can't cry everytime the statement deserved a good laugh, but erh, could you be more specific in your reactions?

[al Roumi]

There is no doubt that the war got ugly on both sides, but the war is over. Russia has pulled out the vast majority of its troops. The counter-insurgency operation ended last April and negotiations commenced. Zakayev, the Chechen separatist leader, declared an end to the conflict last August. Russia is spending billions to rebuild Grozny and the rest of the region. Reputable Chechen leaders are working within the Russian government to promote the interests of the Chechen people. Only a tiny group of fringe fanatics remain in the Northern Caucauses. The world has moved on. If these Muslim women wanted to die for Chechen independence, they had 10 years to do so. At this point, they have no viable strategic justifications for the carnage they have wrought, and their supporters and enablers deserve nothing less than the kind of justice that can only be found in Russia.

...the war in Chechnya is over, with even the Chechen's de Gaulle, Zakayev, declaring as much. These people are not freedom fighters, they are not even true Chechens. They are the same fanatical Muslim types that hit NYC, London, Madrid, Bali and Beslan and that will refuse to accept reality until they are exterminated.

:stunned:

To borrow from Tristuskhan's sig: "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

[spmetla]

RIP to the innocent that were killed.

[Beskar]

They are the same fanatical Muslim types that hit NYC, London, Madrid, Bali and Beslan and that will refuse to accept reality until they are exterminated.

In short - you are advocating to Nuke the Middle East?

[Sarmatian]

In short - you are advocating to Nuke the Middle East?


In contrast, the war in Chechnya is over, with even the Chechen's de Gaulle, Zakayev, declaring as much. These people are not freedom fighters, they are not even true Chechens. They are the same fanatical Muslim types that hit NYC, London, Madrid, Bali and Beslan and that will refuse to accept reality until they are exterminated.
I believe he was talking specifically about the type that strap explosive devices to their bodies and set themselves off in the most crowded area they can reach. Or you believe that entire Middle East is populated by fanatical Muslims?

[Beskar]

I believe he was talking specifically about the type that strap explosive devices to their bodies and set themselves off in the most crowded area they can reach. Or you believe that entire Middle East is populated by fanatical Muslims?

Nope, but many people who advocating nuking the Middle East do. Plenty of them around to ask.

[Megas Methuselah]

From what little I can gather, I still think they're freedom fighters. If a people want the right to govern themselves, they should have it. The fact that not all Chechens don't want independance complicates matters, but some do, and their views should not be cast aside because a member on this board revels in obselete ideas such as the victor's judgement. Nowadays, I like to imagine that brute force is certainly not the sole answer to situations like this.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

From what little I can gather, I still think they're freedom fighters. If a people want the right to govern themselves, they should have it. The fact that not all Chechens don't want independance complicates matters, but some do, and their views should not be cast aside because some fascist member on this board revels in obselete ideas such as the victor's judgement. Nowadays, I like to imagine that brute force is certainly not the sole answer to situations like this.

You realize that this attitude, writ large, provides for an incredible level of "balkanization" throughout the world? Self-governance is a worthwhile goal, but incumbent on that idea is that a small minority does not have the right to veto by violence any and all decisions/modus vivendi with which they disagree.

[Megas Methuselah]

You realize that this attitude, writ large, provides for an incredible level of "balkanization" throughout the world? Self-governance is a worthwhile goal, but incumbent on that idea is that a small minority does not have the right to veto by violence any and all decisions/modus vivendi with which they disagree.

That's what I was worried about, though. This is the first time I've ever bothered to squint in Chechnya's general direction, and I'm unsure as to exactly how much the population is divided between seperatism and their current place with Russia.

[Strike For The South]

So clearly the answer is violence, and not only violence but the murder of innocent civilians

[Megas Methuselah]

So clearly the answer is violence, and not only violence but the murder of innocent civilians

Not really, no. But if I were in their position, I'd be pretty pissed at the Russians, too.

[Strike For The South]

Not really, no. But if I were in their position, I'd be pretty pissed at the Russians, too.

Which would be a fair emotion, however killing civillians always backfries in the end

[naut]

however killing civillians always backfries in the end
Really? Tell that to the IRA.

[PanzerJaeger]

Are you serious? Do you only know who are Kadyrov and his clique? Do you remember the circumstances of his "election" and have you heard of the level of corruption in Chechnya?

Yes. The situation, as in all of Russia, is rife with corruption. Did anyone expect anything other than a Kadyrov type strongman to be installed after such a war? I'm surprised the Russians even went to the trouble of having an "election". It doesn't change the fact that the Chechens fought and lost. Past tense. The time for violence ended last August, as Zakayev stated. Russian troops are gone and Grozny is being rebuilt. The economy and standard of living have rebounded in the region, and they are even considering a tourism industry. Certainly there is bad blood left over, but the world, including the Chechen people, has moved on, and these Muslim extremists need to find some way of dealing with that fact other than blowing people up.



Vendetta needs no viable strategic justifications, and ten years is still a short delay for the achievement of vengeance.

Exactly. Blowing innocent people up over personal vendettas and vengeance is the ultimate petty, selfish act. Further, these people are not even real Chechen nationalists. They are radical Muslims, the same radical Muslims that bombed the Chechen government when it was independent, and one of the main causes of the instability that led to Russia retaking control of the region in the second war. They will not stop until Chechnya is an Islamic theocracy.



But things are much more complex that you seem to believe.

I never said that Chechnya was a great place, only that the time for violence is over.



Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

What did I say that was inaccurate?



In short - you are advocating to Nuke the Middle East?

No.

[Strike For The South]

Really? Tell that to the IRA.

Ok, true but the Uk =/= Russia.

Something tells me someone is going to pay and pay dearly

[naut]

Ok, true but the Uk =/= Russia.

Something tells me someone is going to pay and pay dearly
I unlike PJ don't see it as the same as Al Queda terrorists. I see it largely as similar to Palestinian bombers. And if that is the case, most will gladly pay with their lives, and the violence will only perpetuate itself. Violence isn't necessarily bad for the Chechens, because it advances the seperatist's cause and drags Russian resources and builds weariness among the Russian population. It also musn't be forgotten that Russia is an incredibly racist country. There is more at hand than is publically available.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Actually, you could make a pretty good argument that the Provos accomplished relatively little. The independence movement of the teens and twenties -- using open conflict, guerilla tactics, and assassination of government officials -- gained far more than did the Provisional Wing's antics following The Troubles. They even ended up killing enough civilians to shake quite a few Irish-descent yanks out of their "free the six counties" selective perception haze and drying up the money quite a bit.

If your guerilla movement very clearly goes after the occupying/ruling military, government officials etc., then you will be able to broaden your base of support and possibly use that as a springboard to power (Red Chinese, Am Revolution). Relentlessly targeting the innocent simply cannot generate support -- only fear. Despite Machiavelli's preference for feared v loved, even Nicolo felt the best answer was both -- fear only has some inherent weaknesses.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Actually, you could make a pretty good argument that the Provos accomplished relatively little. The independence movement of the teens and twenties -- using open conflict, guerilla tactics, and assassination of government officials -- gained far more than did the Provisional Wing's antics following The Troubles. They even ended up killing enough civilians to shake quite a few Irish-descent yanks out of their "free the six counties" selective perception haze and drying up the money quite a bit.

Let's not romanticise, please. Throughout Ireland's struggle for independence, civilians have been the target as well as the occupying forces. I'm afraid it's rather fanciful to consider those that won independence as "using open conflict, guerilla tactics, and assassination of government officials" but the Provos were "beastly terrorists". Irish nationalists used terrorist tactics for centuries (for the usual reasons, the odd standing armies we brought were usually heavily defeated - which by PJ's measure, means the Irish should have stayed quiet and subjugated after O'Connor signed his peace treaty with Henry II) and after an orgy of terrorist violence in the early 1920's, brought the British Empire to the negotiating table. Much as they did in the late 1990's, though this was more effective because the targets changed to economic ones.

There are also some who continue to use terrorism to further the aim of a united Ireland. They are very few, very deluded, but cling to an ancient tradition that appeals to the deluded few. However, we do not seem to demonise the entire Republic of Ireland nor the Roman Catholic faith for their actions. Given the historical crimes, one wonders why?

[al Roumi]

If your guerilla movement very clearly goes after the occupying/ruling military, government officials etc., then you will be able to broaden your base of support and possibly use that as a springboard to power (Red Chinese, Am Revolution). Relentlessly targeting the innocent simply cannot generate support -- only fear. Despite Machiavelli's preference for feared v loved, even Nicolo felt the best answer was both -- fear only has some inherent weaknesses.

The weaker the group/faction, the more likely they are to "terrorise". Civilian deaths provoke a reaction. If anything, the Chechen separatists are trying to re-ignite the conflict on a broader scale - Russia's inevitably heavy handed and bloody response ("destroy", "exterminate") will only add more fuel to the fire of Chechen grievances against Russia. Feeding the cycle of violence and recrimination will polarise opinion and thusly bring the separatists more supporters.

[gaelic cowboy]

There are also some who continue to use terrorism to further the aim of a united Ireland. They are very few, very deluded, but cling to an ancient tradition that appeals to the deluded few. However, we do not seem to demonise the entire Republic of Ireland nor the Roman Catholic faith for their actions. Given the historical crimes, one wonders why?

It is because we prefer to forget than to pick at our scabs best leave them to heal. That is the way the Irish deal with a horror so great it spilt the country both litteraly and metaphorically leave it for three or four generations to heal it is the Irish way it always has.

[al Roumi]

It is because we prefer to forget than to pick at our scabs best leave them to heal. That is the way the Irish deal with a horror so great it spilt the country both litteraly and metaphorically leave it for three or four generations to heal it is the Irish way it always has.

...as one ostrich said to another.

[Rhyfelwyr]

However, we do not seem to demonise the entire Republic of Ireland

Every country has a bloody history, but the Republic of Ireland can't be blamed for the campaigns of the PIRA. Especially when the PIRA refuses to recognise the current Irish state as legitimate.


nor the Roman Catholic faith for their actions.

You can't blame the Catholic Church for the atrocities of Republicans. Heck, the Vatican is the most hardcore loyalist institution in the world. The Popes blessed the original plantations in Ireland, a Te Deum was sung at the Vatican when William's victory at the Boyne was announced, and Pius X even blessed the guns that went to the UVF through the Larne gun running (they were smuggled from Italy).

https://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6537/popehun.jpg (https://img708.imageshack.us/i/popehun.jpg/)

[The Wizard]

Yes. The situation, as in all of Russia, is rife with corruption. Did anyone expect anything other than a Kadyrov type strongman to be installed after such a war? I'm surprised the Russians even went to the trouble of having an "election". It doesn't change the fact that the Chechens fought and lost. Past tense. The time for violence ended last August, as Zakayev stated. Russian troops are gone and Grozny is being rebuilt. The economy and standard of living have rebounded in the region, and they are even considering a tourism industry. Certainly there is bad blood left over, but the world, including the Chechen people, has moved on, and these Muslim extremists need to find some way of dealing with that fact other than blowing people up.

Well then, why don't you send this in an e-mail to the Russian security forces and cops, who are clearly unaware that the time for extrajudicial killings, heavy-handed operations resulting in the deaths of loads of innocents (the killing of 22 misidentified civilians by the Russians a couple months ago was the reason Umarov reported for carrying out the attack), extreme repression and clear and open racism is over?

I know you probably don't know this, but despite there never being anything about it in the Western media unless something big happens (like Beslan or this latest attack), there are attacks and reprisals and firefights in the Russian Caucasus almost every day. Sure you can accept Putin's propaganda at face value, but why would anyone? :shrug:

[PanzerJaeger]

Well then, why don't you send this in an e-mail to the Russian security forces and cops, who are clearly unaware that the time for extrajudicial killings, heavy-handed operations resulting in the deaths of loads of innocents (the killing of 22 misidentified civilians by the Russians a couple months ago was the reason Umarov reported for carrying out the attack), extreme repression and clear and open racism is over?

I know you probably don't know this, but despite there never being anything about it in the Western media unless something big happens (like Beslan or this latest attack), there are attacks and reprisals and firefights in the Russian Caucasus almost every day. Sure you can accept Putin's propaganda at face value, but why would anyone? :shrug:

The sanctimonious nature of your posts quickly becomes taxing. What did I write that was inaccurate? Further, how much support, in your estimation, does Umarov have among the Chechen people?

[The Wizard]

What was incorrect is the assumption that the Chechen War is "over". It's not. It's only slightly less bloody, which in the scheme of things means it's still as bloody as the A-stan War if not more so (in a country five or more times smaller than Afghanistan, population-wise). And a lot of that bloodshed is done by Russian security forces. Sure the troops are gone, but OMON, the Militsiya and the MVD are all still present and doing their arbitrary and bloody job.

Which is not to say that the "Islamic Emirate" of the Caucasus is any better. Just that the Russians have made it a very, very bloody affair, in a relatively short amount of time, and that the cycle of violence is far from over.