Preview: The Boii (II)

[-Praetor-]

https://j.imagehost.org/0991/Image3.png (https://j.imagehost.org/view/0991/Image3)Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.

Today we are proud to present our second preview of the Boii, the oldest of all Celtic peoples in Europa Barbarorum. In this preview, we will show four new units: the Acus Eporedoi or "Swift cavalry", the old Leuce Epos from EB-I. The Kombaragoues, or "Those who share bread", retinue fighters for the celtic nobles, the equivalent of EB-I Neitos. The Klappagnetoi or "stone killers", the EB-I Iaosatae, and the Londo Epatoi or "Savage riders", a new unit of celtic light cavalry.
In addition, we will show some more interesting data regarding this faction, such as the origins of their name, and the oppida location, along with some very nice videos!

Enjoy!

(For more information on this faction, go to the first Boii preview linked here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?126717-Preview-The-Boii))



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Etymology

What does Boii mean?

Boios, pl. Boii, (Boius in Latin, Βόϊοι in Greek) probably derives from Proto-Celtic *bouios, *bouii ‘a man who possesses cows’. Hence, in a pre-currency Celtic economy in which wealth was often reckoned in livestock, cattle in particular, a *bouios was a legally competent freeman. Compare the Old Irish legal term ambue ‘outsider, one not legally competent’, etymologically the negative of the same term, Proto- Celtic *ambouios ‘not a cattle-owner’ (cf. McCone, CMCS 12.11). It is therefore likely that the name originally signified an elite class rather than a tribe or people and that the significance changed as a result of migration and/or cultural expansion.

An ancient form of Bohemia is Tacitus’s Boihaemum (Boii + proto-Germanic *haimoz, "home") ‘the home of the Boii’ (Germania 28.2). Other toponymns that feature 'Boii' are Boiodurum (modern Passau), and possible Bavaria, where Bayern is derived, like Bohemia, from a mixture of Celtic and Germanic elements- in this case *baio (proto-Germanic version of Boii) and *warioz, "Dwellers". However, this etymology has some critics.

Julius Pokorny devised an alternative etymology for Boii: from Indo-European *bhei(ə)-, *bhī-, "hit;", which becomes *bhoi- through apophony. In this scenario, Boii means something like 'Warriors', or 'Fierce People'.

A shard of a late La Tene vessel bearing the inscription Boios ‘a Boian’, dating to the 1st century bc, has been found in the oppidum of Manching in Bavaria (Kramer, Das keltische Jahrtausend 250). This is the most direct evidence that we have for what the people called themselves.


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Where were the Boii oppida located?

https://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4193/czeckoppidahp7.th.jpg (https://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=czeckoppidahp7.jpg)
This map shows the location of the settlements listed below.

Zavist/Envy Oppidum
https://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4199/zavistoppidumgx1.th.jpg (https://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zavistoppidumgx1.jpg)

Site Name: Lhota Cadastre, south of Prague -Točná District
Possible Reference: Boiodorum
Tribal Confederation: Boii
Location: 49°58'2.04"N 14°24'14.40"E
Site Type: Large Oppidum with an Acropolis
Structural Type: Hill Fort
Occupation: Approximately between 600 BC and 25 BC
Area: 170 ha
Status: Capital of the Boii Conderation
Note: Need info on gate placement

Stradonice Oppidum
https://img354.imageshack.us/img354/261/stradoniceoppidumml4.th.jpg (https://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stradoniceoppidumml4.jpg)

Site Name: Hradiště, Beroun District
Possible Reference: RedintoÚinon (Rēdi(o?)-dūnon)
Tribal Confederation: Boii
Location: 49°59'30.85"N 14° 0'10.83"E
Site Type: Large Oppidum with an Acropolis
Structural Type: Hill Fort
Occupation: Approximately between 120 BC and 25 BC
Area: 90 ha
Status: Second tier or district capital

Nevězice Oppidum
https://img386.imageshack.us/img386/446/nevziceoppidumer5.th.jpg (https://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nevziceoppidumer5.jpg)

Site Name: Hrad, Pí#sek District
Possible Reference: ?
Tribal Confederation: Boii
Location: 49°27'58.35"N 14°10'6.95"E
Site Type: Small Oppidum
Structural Type: Hill Fort
Occupation: Approximately between 100 BC and 50 BC
Area: 13 ha
Status: Refugum

Hrazany Oppidum
https://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4435/hrazanyoppidumxd3.th.jpg (https://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hrazanyoppidumxd3.jpg)

Site Name: Radí#č cadastre, Příbram District
Possible Reference: ?
Tribal Confederation: Boii
Location: 49°44'1.18"N 14°24'12.36"E
Site Type: Oppidum
Structural Type: Hill Fort
Occupation: First occupation between 550 BC and 450 BC; second occupation from 120 BC to 25 BC
Area: 40 ha
Status: Minor capital of a local noble

Třísov Oppidum
https://img368.imageshack.us/img368/4643/tsovoppidumnf0.th.jpg (https://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tsovoppidumnf0.jpg)

Site Name: Hradiště - V hradišti, Český Krumlov District
Possible Reference: Fourgisat…j
Tribal Confederation: Boii
Location: 48°53'13.06"N 14°21'12.34"E
Site Type: Small Oppidum
Structural Type: Hill Fort
Occupation: from 50 BC to AD 1
Area: 26 ha
Status: Minor capital of a local noble

Staré Hradisko Oppidum
https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/456/starhradiskooppidumqm3.th.jpg (https://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=starhradiskooppidumqm3.jpg)

Site Name: Staré Hradisko
Possible Reference: Streuint…a
Tribal Confederation: Boii
Location: 49°29'54.29"N 16°53'43.89"E
Site Type: Small Oppidum
Structural Type: Hill Fort
Occupation: from 150 BC to 50 BC
Area: 37.5 ha
Status: Minor capital of a local noble

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The Warriors

Klappagnetoi

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Klappagnetoi ('Stone killers'). Renowned for their use of slings, the Celts bring excellent slingers with them. Although small in number, they are considered the best in all of Northern Europe. However, these men are not true warriors; and unfit for mêlée except against other slingers and light units. If kept at a distance these men can inflict significant damage on the enemy in little time; making armoured opponents think twice before entering shooting distance of these men.

Historically, the slinger was a common sight on ancient battlefields. The sling and stone can certainly be more deadly than javelins or arrows when used correctly; and for troops with small or no shields, slingers are among the deadliest opponents to face. The Celts seem to have favoured the sling and bullet over the bow and arrow. Caches of sling shots have been found in for example Britain, which evidences their common usage among Celts. Whether in the defence of the Dunon (or Oppidum), or taking the fight to the field, slingers are valuable in any form of warfare and not to be underestimated. Especially not at a distance!

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Londo Epatoi

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(Lon-doh E-pat-oy. ‘Savage Riders’). The Celts of Eastern Europe are known for their savage nature in war and this, combined with their long standing and famous cavalry tradition, produces great cavalry of like minded temperament. Renowned for their large numbers and daring ambushes, the Londo Epatoi are quick, agile horsemen that spearhead any campaign or raid, no matter how great or small. Seated in the Gallic saddle, they can deliver a greater charge than most other horsemen of similar armament and can melee like cavalry of greater rank. These riders fulfill the need of bridging cavalry that excels in fast hit-and-run strikes with that of notable staying power during melee.

Historically, these riders spread far and wide. Images come to us from modern day southern Germany and Turkey showing bare-chested, spiky haired, and sword bearing cavalry that appear nearly identical to each other despite their discoveries being thousands of miles apart. While the Gauls in the West perfected their own style of horsemanship, parallel developments occurred in the East as well with cavalry becoming a symbol of the prestigious and successful warrior.


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Acus Eporedoi

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Acus Eporedoi (Ak-us E-po-red-oy 'Swift Horsemen') are fast and well armed cavalrymen: a staple force in Iron Age warfare. In Celtic Europe, the emphasis on cavalry is well known and rightly feared. The Acus Eporedoi are among the great horsemen of tribe and state. Their weapons of choice are charging spears and javelins, and their constant training as well as good/excellent horsemanship allow them to perform well in battle with admirable staying power. Similar to other wealthier or noble units, their skill and access to superior equipment improves through various reforms as time progresses, which enables them to remain the medium cavalry of choice among Celts.

Historically, Celtic middle class consisted mostly of the freemen within the tribe or state. These men were free to choose their own way of life within local law or constitution. This included devoting their lives to farming, trading or other occupations. Warfare was just one such occupation, especially as it was never far away. Wealthier members among this middle class often afforded the ownership of Gallic ponies for use in fighting as semi-professional cavalrymen during the campaigning season. Those who did are represented by the Acus Eproedoi.

Although larger breeds of horses were known among the Western Gauls and Eastern Celts, doubtless bred from larger Scythian breeds from the east and the exclusive property of nobles, the overwhelming number of Gallic mounts were small by modern standards, similar in size to ponies. However, they are incredibly hardy, agile, resistant to disease and very strong relative to their size. These wonderful characteristics in their mounts, augmented with a four-pronged Gallic saddle allow the Celts a perfect combination for battle in hills, dense forests and the varied features of the terrain of their homeland.


Early:

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Middle:

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Late:

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Kombaragoues

https://f.imagehost.org/t/0777/drutonedammoi_boii.jpg (https://f.imagehost.org/view/0777/drutonedammoi_boii)
(Kom-bar-ag-o-wes. ‘Those Who Share Bread’). Kombaragoues are bodyguards and chief vassals of the mighty Argoi. Elite in status, Kombarargoues furnish the Argoi with veteran warriors bound by the ethos of protecting their chieftain while furthering his aims of glory and prestige. In turn, they receive varied gifts and honor from their chief and remain in supreme standing among other warriors. Their infantry based panoply is second only to the Argoi and as time progresses, advances in Celtic technology and iron working enable chainmail to become more common as well as iron helmets, resulting in a more deadly and formidable group of bodyguards.

Historically, Celtic societies were major proponents of vassalage. The most successful warriors and generals would be praised and lauded within the tribe or state and as such, would attract or indebt others into their service. Each vassal or man-at-arms would have varying abilities in and out of combat. Not all clients were natural warriors, however, but those with combined qualities of superior swordplay and combat skills, coupled with utmost loyalty and devotion, would quickly earn themselves a place within the leading and most rewarded vassals of nobles and kings. Men such as these are represented by the Kombaragoues.


Early:

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Middle:

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Late:

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Videos


We are proud to present a couple of videos showcasing the Boii in action. In the first video, you will be able to see the four new units in the M2TW engine, in their respective variants. In the second video, you will see them fighting against the Getai! Courtesy of JMRC!

Unit Video:

Cast (in order of appearance):


Acus Eporedoi Late
Acus Eporedoi Middle
Acus Eporedoi Early
Londo Epatoi
Kombaragoues Early
Kombaragoues Middle
Kombaragoues Late
Klappagnetoi



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ps1x3x-jkE

Download it! (http://www.filefront.com/15956027/boii_units_preview2.rar)

Combat Video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYIx1zk5fKE

Download it too! (http://www.filefront.com/15955425/boii_vs_getai_2.rar)

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Signature Banners

In case you haven't done so already, show your support for Europa Barbarorum in style with these three new signature banners, featuring the mighty Boii! Courtesy of Gustave.


https://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/abdeldinar/signboii.jpg

https://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/abdeldinar/signboii2.jpg

https://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/abdeldinar/signboii3.jpg

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[-Praetor-]

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The Boii in battle

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https://i.imagehost.org/0319/boiipreviewborderx2.png

We hope you have enjoyed this second preview of our new Boii faction in Europa Barbarorum II.

Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, descriptions and particularly animations shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

A special thanks to Tux and JMRC for their excellent models and renders, Gustave for his wonderful unit skins and artwork, JMRC for the videos, Power2the1 for the unit descriptions, and to Power2the1, Oudysseos, Paullus, Cmaqq and Anthony for the historical info and text work.

Have a great day
The Europa Barbarorum team.

[jazstl]

Super, you are doing great boys... I put my hat off...

[Famine0]

Very nice! The Boii have fascinated me since I saw those Boii swordsmen in EB1, I'll definetely play them in EBII!

[anubis88]

;D AWESOME

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Another amazing EB II preview! Thanks!

[Unintended BM]

The video with the battle is awesome.

[Phalanx300]

Nice new preview, the Boii are looking great. Will be fun crushing them with Germanic spears :P.

[Noble Wrath]

Make your hair spiky, take off your shirt, grab the mighty celtic sword and charge those getic dogs to death! Good times..
Is there any female EB member? If there is, I want to marry her.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Very nice preview! And so short after the last one, looks like it is getting bigger and bigger!

Two questions:

1. Is the man in front a unit commander? https://j.imagehost.org/view/0525/kingdoms_2010-04-03_11-09-55-79

2. The Kombaragoues will be the bodyguards of the Boii family members? And does that mean that, judging by the description, the Argoi are stronger?

Once again, very nice!

~Fluvius

[-Praetor-]

#1) Yes, he is the celtic captain. He is based on another unit you will see soon enough. ~;)
#2) No, the kombaragoues are professional retinue fighters, not noblemen themselves. The Boii family member bodyguards will be shown on the third preview. And yes, the argoi are stronger than the kombaragoues.

[JMRC]

1. Is the man in front a unit commander? https://j.imagehost.org/view/0525/kingdoms_2010-04-03_11-09-55-79
Actually, it's a standard-bearer, although you don't see the standard in this pic. In the video you can see the standard-bearers, carnyx-bearers and the King of the Boii himself!


2. The Kombaragoues will be the bodyguards of the Boii family members? And does that mean that, judging by the description, the Argoi are stronger?
The Argoi are the celtic nobles and their vassals include the Solduroi from Aquitania, the Kombaragoues from the Boii and others in the Gallic tribes. The Argoi are one of the most powerful infantry units of the Celts and they are better than the Kombaragoues.

EDIT: Praetor beat me to the answer! I think I write too much. ~:)

[Lvcretivs]

Astonishing and simply brilliant work!

@Fluvius: The Kombaragues form the semi-feudal personal retinue of the Argoi, the Boii nobles, the bodyguard of the leading aristocracy bound by vassalage - a Boii FM's retinue in turn is (IIRC) made up of his vassals, the Argoi, which are -as rich 'cream of society'- the best equipped warriors the Boii can field, a social and military elite - presumably stronger than their own vassals...(think of medieval feudalism and it's 'pyramid schemes')

EDIT: too late...;)

[-Praetor-]

Yeah but you got it right better than me, he is the standard bearer, not the captain per se.

[Horatius Flaccus]

Fantastic! Even the 'inside' of the shields are filled with detail.

[Taliferno]

Excellent work, I especially like the Acus Eporedoi.

[Gustave]

Thank you all for your positive answers, be sure we are working hard for your pleasure ! :beam:

[Trax]

Beautiful work! :2thumbsup:

[stratigos vasilios]

Absolutely brilliant! *applause*

[Belisarius II]

Keep it up guys.

[Megas Methuselah]

WOW! We aren't only going to get a fantastic game relative to historical accuracy, gameplay mechanics, etc. but we are also going to get a whole bunch of eye candy. Amazing work.

I liked the pictures of the phalanx fight, in particular. This preview was something I really enjoyed seeing, and I can tell that those poor Boii troops are bleeding the blood of the EB Team, who sacrificed so much for this to happen. Keep up the good ******* work, aight? :yes:

[CaesarAugustus]

Preview is much appreciated, amazing work so far! :beam:

[Bloody Sacha]

Absolutely glorious, I've been rooting for the Boii faction for quite some time. I suspect playing as the Boiorix will be really intense with fierce enemies on all sides, I cant wait to hear what kind of regional units they can acquire, the results would be quite exotic. Incidentally was the 200 unit type cap ever resolved? If not I probably shouldn't expect to see any cultural hybrids around Bononia and Jutland. Furthermore could the resident Boii expert/celt linguist confirm or deny any correlation between the Boii and the Tolistobogii, I've occasionally heard it suggested that the two where related but have never seen it proven. It seems to me that the claim might be based exclusively on the word strength of Boii and Tolistobogii its been bugging me for quite some time.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Very good job!
I think this is going to be the best mod for M2TW!

[Fluvius Camillus]

@-Praetor-, JMRC, Lvcretivs

Thanks for the fast replies. I understand the vassal system and I thought that Argoi were too rare to form a bodyguard for all FMs, and the Kombaragoues would take up that role as they are still strong men.

Anticipating the next one!

~Fluvius

[athanaric]

Great as always.
So now the Boii are furnished with swordsmen of all kinds, missile troops, light and medium cavalry, and light spearmen, I guess what's missing is some equivalent of Teceitos.

Also, from what you wrote, I take it that the slingers will once again have the advantage of range and ammo over archers. But why didn't they have shields? were they considered too cumbersome?

[Taliferno]

But why didn't they have shields? were they considered too cumbersome?

Its possible that the slingers came from the unfree part of society, or younger warriors who have not yet become "a man". In early christian Ireland (and Iron Age Germany I think?) the spear and shield were the mark of the freeman.

[HFox]

Really interesting, informative and exciting.

Like many others, I'm selfishly impatient for the day this arrives, but grateful for the work being put into this.

Many thanks.

[Power2the1]

Furthermore could the resident Boii expert/celt linguist confirm or deny any correlation between the Boii and the Tolistobogii, I've occasionally heard it suggested that the two where related but have never seen it proven. It seems to me that the claim might be based exclusively on the word strength of Boii and Tolistobogii its been bugging me for quite some time.

Its a matter of linguistics really. Here is something I posted in EBH:


Bo- definitions go with 'cattle', 'cow' and that sort of thing. In Lepontic money there is a coin with -bouos. Gallic inscription also show a Conto-bouio-uindillus. Plenty of bo- and bou- instances. From Norican there is Botuca. Thers also a Bouius, Bouoririui, bouitos, bouido, etc... these terms favor a cattle approach to their names.

Boios definitions. This means 'active', 'perinneal', 'vivacious', and 'batting'. It mentions the fragment that Oudy presented with the singular Boios. Theres a Styrian Boius. There Boiorix ('King of the Boii'), Boiacum ('Domain of the Boii'). It ends about there.

But there is a catch. The entries of bogio- are the names for 'slayer', ' and 'breaker'. This entry lists a term (name?) Adbogious from Galatia, a gen. term of Namatobogius, Sentubogius, etc...

All in all Bo-list the most possibilites. It goes without saying that Celts were great warriors, but they were also great cattlemen with their "possessions of gold and cattle" being the things they carry with them as they travel. Where do we draw the line between 'cattlemen', 'active men', or 'slayers'? Either one seems fitting and all are attested.

The Tolistobogii are 'Strikers of Tolistos', and the Tolistoboii are 'Cattlemen of Tolistos', Tolistos being either a great king or a god. It should be taken that these are members of the same tribe. The regions of the Boii and Volcae are adjacent to each other, and the Textosages are known in both Galatia and Europe, as are the Boii. So its know that these Galatians originated from the Danube/southern German corridor. The Trcomi could have also been from this area too.

[BerkeleyBoi]

awesome... thanks for the preview!

[Power2the1]

Great as always.
So now the Boii are furnished with swordsmen of all kinds, missile troops, light and medium cavalry, and light spearmen, I guess what's missing is some equivalent of Teceitos.

Also, from what you wrote, I take it that the slingers will once again have the advantage of range and ammo over archers. But why didn't they have shields? were they considered too cumbersome?

There are Celtic axe-club units in EB2. Not sure if these will be previewed as they are AOR units and not really factional.

Slingers may have had a shield, but its been brought out by Oudy in EBH that the Celtic shields do not have straps to the arms, and are held by the hand. To sling you needs a had to whirl the slings, and another to pick up the stones. If they had shields, they may have laid them down on the ground until they had to melee. That, or they did not carry one at all. Reliefs of Germans slingers also show no shields as well.

[Paltmull]

Beautiful! Nice to see some more pics of those gorgeous phalanxes too :)

[Andy1984]

The EB2-team has once more showed themselves worthy of their predecessing EB1-team.

[WinsingtonIII]

I'm loving the blowouts these guys have

How much hair gel did the average Celt go through?

[A Very Super Market]

Simply beautiful.

[darius_d]

very nice preview of two factions units actually. enjoyed a lot :wings:
now waiting for 3rd boii preview... :egypt:

[-Praetor-]

very nice preview of two factions units actually. enjoyed a lot :wings:
now waiting for 3rd boii preview... :egypt:

You won't have to wait long. We're preparing the 3rd boii preview as we speak, and it will show some of the most powerful celtic soldiers in our mod.

Basically, the last tier of units will eat you raw ingame.

[Cybvep]

EBII will be grand... I can feel it ;)

With each preview the mod is looking more and more promising, up to the point that currently I only fear three things:

1. Crappy AI which will ruin the whole experience, i.e. no challenge
2. Bland, gamey and simply boring MTW2 Vanilla UI. I hope it won't take too long to create new one.
3. "Weak" and quiet battle sounds of MTW2 Vanilla...

[Lvcretivs]

@Cybvep: 2. Replacement of the Vanilla UIs seems an issue the team has already proper taken care of - look at the provinces preview (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=115627) featuring screenshots of an obviously already integrated Hayasdan UI.

[Ptolemaios]

Good work! I really like what you guys created there, but stilll I have one question:

When e.g. the Kombaragoues fight they hold their shield horizontal and not upright like they do when they stand still, or other units with a same shaped shield do in EBI. I wonder if you did this on purpose, or if it is due to the M2TW engine?

[WinsingtonIII]

Good work! I really like what you guys created there, but stilll I have one question:

When e.g. the Kombaragoues fight they hold their shield horizontal and not upright like they do when they stand still, or other units with a same shaped shield do in EBI. I wonder if you did this on purpose, or if it is due to the M2TW engine?

I think they mentioned in the 1st Boii preview that this was simply an issue that had not been corrected yet but would be soon.

[Zradha Pahlavan]

It looks like the barbarians of Europe are going to be as gloriously represented as they ought to be.

[Trax]

By the way, at least one preview is missing from the "All the Previews in One Thread".

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?123266-Preview-The-Sauromatae

Maybe it's not the only one.

[MeinPanzer]

Also, from what you wrote, I take it that the slingers will once again have the advantage of range and ammo over archers. But why didn't they have shields? were they considered too cumbersome?

We don't have a huge amount of iconographic evidence pertaining to slingers, but what we do have makes it quite clear that it was not the norm for slingers of any culture in the ancient world to carry shields. In fact, there is only one known ancient depiction of a slinger with a shield, and that comes from Trajan's column.

[athanaric]

There are Celtic axe-club units in EB2. Not sure if these will be previewed as they are AOR units and not really factional.

Slingers may have had a shield, but its been brought out by Oudy in EBH that the Celtic shields do not have straps to the arms, and are held by the hand. To sling you needs a had to whirl the slings, and another to pick up the stones. If they had shields, they may have laid them down on the ground until they had to melee. That, or they did not carry one at all. Reliefs of Germans slingers also show no shields as well.


We don't have a huge amount of iconographic evidence pertaining to slingers, but what we do have makes it quite clear that it was not the norm for slingers of any culture in the ancient world to carry shields. In fact, there is only one known ancient depiction of a slinger with a shield, and that comes from Trajan's column.
Thanks for the answers :2thumbsup: What about written accounts though?
Also, this probably means that slingers will be largely without shields in EB II, and thus very vulnerable to archers?

[oudysseos]

Meinpanzer is correct- and it is my own private belief that the guy who carved that bit of Trajans column was not an eye-witness to slingers in battle. Anyway, it's a bit of a grey area for us in that it is totally possible for someone to carry a shield, drop it when using the sling, and pick it up again when not. The M2TW engine can't do this, so our thoughts are that "pure" slingers will mostly not have shields, but slinging units that have some melee capacity might get them. It's a compromise, and the best we can do.

Another thing to realize about slingers, and another thing that the engine doesn't really handle, is that they are not capable of indirect fire like archers are. A slinger must have unimpeded line-of-sight to his target, i.e., he can't lob a shot over the heads of guys in the front rank. There isn't really a satisfactory solution to this AFAIK.

[moonburn]

Meinpanzer is correct- and it is my own private belief that the guy who carved that bit of Trajans column was not an eye-witness to slingers in battle. Anyway, it's a bit of a grey area for us in that it is totally possible for someone to carry a shield, drop it when using the sling, and pick it up again when not. The M2TW engine can't do this, so our thoughts are that "pure" slingers will mostly not have shields, but slinging units that have some melee capacity might get them. It's a compromise, and the best we can do.

Another thing to realize about slingers, and another thing that the engine doesn't really handle, is that they are not capable of indirect fire like archers are. A slinger must have unimpeded line-of-sight to his target, i.e., he can't lob a shot over the heads of guys in the front rank. There isn't really a satisfactory solution to this AFAIK.
maybe a solution for it could be to use the code about the lances replenishment rate of knights from mtw2
if they are shooting their slings then they can´t have their shields for 15 seconds after they stoped shooting
if they are engaged in melee before they had their shields they can´t recover their shields until they disengage and wait for the 15 seconds before going into melee

but thats just me a total newb in programing presenting what is probably a very wierd solution :X

as for the boii i will probably give it a good try (thanks to these amazing previews and considering that the best crack end units haven´t even been presented yet) even tough i tend to deslike keltic factions for their low morale

[-Praetor-]

maybe a solution for it could be to use the code about the lances replenishment rate of knights from mtw2
if they are shooting their slings then they can´t have their shields for 15 seconds after they stoped shooting
if they are engaged in melee before they had their shields they can´t recover their shields until they disengage and wait for the 15 seconds before going into melee

but thats just me a total newb in programing presenting what is probably a very wierd solution :X

Care to explain further, please? This is interesting. :book:

[Elmetiacos]

Very pretty - please remember that in all Celtic languages (including Noric, we presume) the adjective follows the noun and agrees with it, so Epatoi Londoi and Eporedoi Acues.

[Power2the1]

Very pretty - please remember that in all Celtic languages (including Noric, we presume) the adjective follows the noun and agrees with it, so Epatoi Londoi and Eporedoi Acues.

I agree with you. However, the examples in the Gallic dictionaries that I have (Delamarre, Savingnac, Lambert, Ellis, and Beaufort) do not show it that way *consistantly* at all, I see both ways presented, not sure why that is though. I see prefixes and suffixes switch around plenty with the determative compounds allowing for such things to happen, such as the first word determining the second, or vice versa. The dictionaries mention that the 'relationship' between the two words could be of many types and not formally incoded really, but I am not a native French speaker and none are in English, so I admit I might have mistranslated something, or took an English syntax view on something. Let me know.

For example, on passgae in Gaulish reads this:

Granno mo moi/Grannos my friend
Granno mon pouere/Grannos my father
Granno mo mouere/Grannos my mother

Could also read the opposite with: my father Grannos, my mother Grannos, my friend Grannos, and still be correct in meaning?

[B-Wing]

Another thing to realize about slingers, and another thing that the engine doesn't really handle, is that they are not capable of indirect fire like archers are. A slinger must have unimpeded line-of-sight to his target, i.e., he can't lob a shot over the heads of guys in the front rank. There isn't really a satisfactory solution to this AFAIK.

A thought on this:
There was a thread on this forum with a question about why archers poisitioned on walls (during siege battles in M2TW) can't seem to aim down to shoot. It had something to do with the parapets on the outer edge of the walls being impossible to shoot through. So the archers would fire their arrows almost straight up into the air in order to cross it, which was horrible inaccurate. Anyway, one proposed solution was to limit the maximum vertical angle which archers can fire. I'm not certain, but I think this was simply a stat for each individual unit in the export_unit_description file.

To get to the point, perhaps you could do the same thing for slingers. Limit their upward firing angle to something more realistic so that they can't lob their stones too high in the air.

[oudysseos]

I'll look into that- but I'm not sure it solves the formation problem, i.e., guys in the ranks still shooting even though their comrades are in front of them. But thanks for the tip.

[Bucefalo]

I'll look into that- but I'm not sure it solves the formation problem, i.e., guys in the ranks still shooting even though their comrades are in front of them. But thanks for the tip.

I think there are here two different things that need to be explained apart.

One is that as oudysseos said, all the ranks of a unit can shoot in M2TW, i have no idea if it is possible to remove this. An example of this: take a unit of crossbowmen in M2TW, form them up in a deep formation with many ranks, and have them shoot. They won´t have any friendly fire among members of their own unit, and all crossbowmen will fire. The only idea that comes to my mind is to make the unit formation start with few ranks, as the ai is unlikely to change formations anyway. The player would have to house rule it to don´t change the formation to a deep one of course.

The other thing is about the arc of fire, i think this is what B_Ray was talking about. In M2TW archers can fire over your own troops, but for example crossbows can´t. I don´t know exactly which part defines this trait, but i think it is somewhere in the descr_projectiles files, probably in the values of the arrow/bolt that those archers/crossbowmen fire sorry it seems like i was wrong, must be defined somewhere else. You could base the slingers around the crossbowmen, and see if you can mimic the limited angle of the crossbowmen copying their values.

Sorry for the offtopic but i felt that needed some explanation, i hope it have been of some help.

[Moros]

I think there are here two different things that need to be explained apart.

One is that as Moros said, all the ranks of a unit can shoot in M2TW, i have no idea if it is possible to remove this. An example of this: take a unit of crossbowmen in M2TW, form them up in a deep formation with many ranks, and have them shoot. They won´t have any friendly fire among members of their own unit, and all crossbowmen will fire. The only idea that comes to my mind is to make the unit formation start with few ranks, as the ai is unlikely to change formations anyway. The player would have to house rule it to don´t change the formation to a deep one of course.

The other thing is about the arc of fire, i think this is what B_Ray was talking about. In M2TW archers can fire over your own troops, but for example crossbows can´t. I don´t know exactly which part defines this trait, but i think it is somewhere in the descr_projectiles files, probably in the values of the arrow/bolt that those archers/crossbowmen fire sorry it seems like i was wrong, must be defined somewhere else. You could base the slingers around the crossbowmen, and see if you can mimic the limited angle of the crossbowmen copying their values.

Sorry for the offtopic but i felt that needed some explanation, i hope it have been of some help.

I said what?

[Bucefalo]

Sorry, i meant to say oudysseus. I even quoted his post but somehow messed it up. My apologies to both of you.:embarassed:

[bobbin]

The other thing is about the arc of fire, i think this is what B_Ray was talking about. In M2TW archers can fire over your own troops, but for example crossbows can´t. I don´t know exactly which part defines this trait, but i think it is somewhere in the descr_projectiles files, probably in the values of the arrow/bolt that those archers/crossbowmen fire sorry it seems like i was wrong, must be defined somewhere else.

No i think you were right the first time, take a look at the data entries for descr_projectile and you will see mix and max angle of fire values.


projectile musket_bullet

effect bullet_model_set
end_effect bullet_impact_ground_set
end_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_package_effect bullet_impact_wall_set
end_shatter_effect bullet_impact_ground_set
end_shatter_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_shatter_package_effect bullet_impact_wall_set

damage 0
radius 0.11
mass 0.06
accuracy_vs_units 0.015
min_angle -70
max_angle 70
velocity 80 105
display aimed
effect_only

[Elmetiacos]

I agree with you. However, the examples in the Gallic dictionaries that I have (Delamarre, Savingnac, Lambert, Ellis, and Beaufort) do not show it that way *consistantly* at all, I see both ways presented, not sure why that is though. I see prefixes and suffixes switch around plenty with the determative compounds allowing for such things to happen, such as the first word determining the second, or vice versa. The dictionaries mention that the 'relationship' between the two words could be of many types and not formally incoded really, but I am not a native French speaker and none are in English, so I admit I might have mistranslated something, or took an English syntax view on something. Let me know.

For example, on passgae in Gaulish reads this:

Granno mo moi/Grannos my friend
Granno mon pouere/Grannos my father
Granno mo mouere/Grannos my mother

Could also read the opposite with: my father Grannos, my mother Grannos, my friend Grannos, and still be correct in meaning?
That looks to me like Late Latin or Early French with a personal name surviving from Gaulish - notice the word for father pouere (French père) has that PIE initial p- which Celtic lost early.

Compounds, occurring a lot in names, seem to confuse matters but don't really... where the word order seems to put the "adjective" first when you translate, it doesn't really, because these are actually compounds made up of a qualifying noun + noun. It's the same in modern Irish, which also puts adjectives after nouns, when you get a compound like leasmháthair (stepmother) The adjective still does follow the noun, in phrases or in compounds with noun + adjective - compare the personal names Adgennorixs "King of the lineage" and Anextlomaros "Great protector": the first one is two nouns, the second noun followed by adjective.

Having said that, there are probably a small handful of adjectives which do precede the noun, one of which is likely to be *seno- meaning "old" because both sean in Irish and hen in Welsh are unusual in doing this.

[Phalanx300]

You won't have to wait long. We're preparing the 3rd boii preview as we speak, and it will show some of the most powerful celtic soldiers in our mod.

Basically, the last tier of units will eat you raw ingame.

Nice, I gues the Gaesatae which were said to come? Just how diverse will they be :P.

[Cadwalader]

Damned good job as always. What did you promise the devil for him to teach you modding?

[-Praetor-]

The souls of everyone that download this mod.

[stratigos vasilios]

The souls of everyone that download this mod.

Oh man, I'm having that dream again where I'm paddling towards a castle but my soul isn't helping me paddle! It's with Praetor, paddling as he's sitting back!


-Simpsons reference anyone?

[ARCHIPPOS]

I think The Boii are going to be the first faction i try on EB II. You guys rock!Thanx, thanx, thanx for making mindblowing games for free and keep up the great work !!!

[Ptolemaios]

Care to explain further, please? This is interesting. :book:

In another mod for M2TW (Chivalry II) there exist archer units that carry shields on their bag or belts. When they go into melee they change the weapon and pick up the shield. You could ask the Chivalry II team how to program that, because I have no idea of programming. I just noticed while playing and remembered this thread.

P.S: I´m so looking foreward to this.

[Divinephyton]

Perhaps the Boii could also be a vehicle to thoroughly highlight the intricate Celto-Greek relations (or Greek influence)?

Oh and excuse my innocence to these fora, but is the type of horse used hardcoded? Because these in the preview look somewhat "modern" (ie too tall,...) to me, especially for 'Western' civilisations of that time

[Moros]

The horses from the preview are still vanilla mtw2 horses. Custom made ones will be featured in EB II however.

[Ghaust the Moor]

Ummm....I don't know if this is covered, but the little signature banners have dissappeared and so I was wondering where they are,cause I want one. Thanks for anyhelp

[stratigos vasilios]

Is this what your after?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?128456-Boii-and-pritanoi-sign-banners

[Ghaust the Moor]

Yes thank you

[Folgore]

I was reading Livius' books about Hannibal, when I came upon a section dealing with the death of consul Posthumius:


While busily occupied with these matters, intelligence arrived of a fresh disaster--fortune crowding into this year one calamity after another--that Lucius Posthumius, consul elect, himself with all his army was destroyed in Gaul. He was to march his troops through a vast wood, which the Gauls called Litana. On the right and left of his route, the natives had sawed the trees in such a manner that they continued standing upright, but would fall when impelled by a slight force. Posthumius had with him two Roman legions, and besides had levied so great a number of allies along the Adriatic Sea, that he led into the enemy's country twenty-five thousand men. As soon as this army entered the wood, the Gauls, who were posted around its extreme skirts, pushed down the outermost of the sawn trees, which falling on those next them, and these again on others which of themselves stood tottering and scarcely maintained their position, crushed arms, men, and horses in an indiscriminate manner, so that scarcely ten men escaped. For, most of them being killed by the trunks and broken boughs of trees, the Gauls, who beset the wood on all sides in arms killed the rest, panic-struck by so unexpected a disaster. A very small number, who attempted to escape by a bridge, were taken prisoners, being intercepted by the enemy who had taken possession of it before them. Here Posthumius fell, fighting with all his might to prevent his being taken. The Boii having cut off his head, carried it and the spoils they stole off his body, in triumph into the most sacred temple they had. Afterwards they cleansed the head according to their custom, and having covered the skull with chased gold, used it as a cup for libations in their solemn festivals, and a drinking cup for their high priests and other ministers of the temple. The spoils taken by the Gauls were not less than the victory. For though great numbers of the beasts were crushed by the falling trees, yet as nothing was scattered by flight, every thing else was found strewed along the whole line of the prostrate band.


Now, I was wondering, is this something the Boii really would have done, or is this simply another case of the graeco-roman anti-barbarian bias?

[Ludens]

Headhunting was certainly a Celtic custom. I am not sure if they used the skulls for religious ceremonies, but they occasionally fling them into rivers as a sacrifice. (That is: early Iron-Age Cultures threw a lot of valuables into rivers, presumably for a religious reason. IIRC they also did this with heads, which means that it was more than just a macabre trophy to them.)

[bobbin]

They certainly kept them sometimes, Gallic shrines like the one at Entremont had little niches where the heads were displayed.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

It is however known that many steppe nomads, from the Scythians to the Xiongnu, had this tradition,whereby the turned the top of the skull of their enemies into a drinking bowl, and sometimes covering it in gold. It is mentioned both by Herodotos and in ancient chinese sources. Maybe the celts also had this practice,or maybe Livius had the customs of the celts and the Scythians confused.

[Ludens]

Although Classical historians were as prone to mistakes as everyone, it does sound like a stretch to confuse Celts with Scythians. Livy would have known the difference. Also, a drinking bowl is not necessarily the same as a ritual cup. Although Livy mentions that the priests used Posthumus' skull to drink from, to me it sounds like it was used as a religious object. Did the Scyths use their skull cups just for drinking, or was this a religious rite as well?

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

I'm not sure, actually. I know of an account from China, when the Han envoys were recieved at the Xiongnu Shan-yü's court, they were served a dring out of a cup made from the skull of the Yuezhi leader more than 200 years earlier, so it seems to have been used in some ceremonial manner. Among the Schythians, Herodotos hints at it being used in ceremonial circumstances, where the host, while serving beverages in the cup, would state who's skull it was, and what that person had done to deserve such treatment.

[Power2the1]

In this relief called the Padua stele iirc, it shows a Gallic cavalryman fighting a Gallic or Ligurian infantryman, with whats though to be a human head attached to his horse. Sorry that this is such a bad picture, I cannot find my up close pic...

https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/Power2the1/Paduastele.png

Diodorus mentions that:


They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold.

Celtic tradition and religious belief was that a man's soul resided within his head, and taking the head of a fallen enemy was a sign of respect for some and glory for the taker.

[Folgore]

Haha! Cool stuff. Thanks for the answers everyone.

[moonburn]

Diodorus mentions that:
Celtic tradition and religious belief was that a man's soul resided within his head, and taking the head of a fallen enemy was a sign of respect for some and glory for the taker.

well many south american tribes believed it was a sign of disrespect to the enemies not eating them because they´re souls would be attached to their bodies for eternity making them wandering gosths instead of releasing them from the earthly world

a bit more of sociological information would be very cool so we understand why certain people behaved as they did instead of the many erroneous westernsided points of view (for instance the abundance of penis images in egypt that where destroyed by the vitorian archeologists because they considered them ... well you get the idea)

[Bradley]

Hi all members of EB2 team, big fan writing to you!

I´m from Boii (Bójové in czech - after them is Bohemia called Bohemia) homeland and I would like to add few details, especialy on those provinces/oppidums of Boii:

Oppidum Závist - near Praha (yeah, Prague, but it was by legend named after word "Práh" so it is "Praha") was probably settled during 600bc by Celts because of its good position - trade route, gold deposits, defendable position, rich soil for farming. It was probably 27 ha large in its oldest form to aproximately 118 ha in 200bc (maybe 170 ha, sources are different) and counting about 2000-3500 inhabitants (whole Bohemia circa 75 000 - 100 000) with "luxury district" on "acropolis". Defends were quite complex - wooden walls, "wolf holes" (hole covered and with spike on bottom), moats and joining opposite hill called "Šance" (Chance) to one town (about 6-7 miles of walls). The city had a refugium with estimated capacity of 40 000 refugees. Archeologists and antropologists consider this Oppidum as center of power and home of Celtic elites in Bohemia and very rich (as is obvious when they were able to create "Acropolis of Závist" - stone houses, shrines...

Than, probably sometimes in 100 bc it was conquered by Germans and by the time it lost its importance. The last evidence of people dates to 10 AD.

Hradiště, Stradonice (Hradiště means something like "not so big castle" :-) )

Aprox 90 ha large, on tom of hill called "Hradiště", probably divided to "acropolis" and rest of town. The fortifications consisted from stones fortified with wooden pillars, 2,5 metres high, 4 gates to enter the oppidum. The place was inhabited in circa 200 Bc, work on oppida started on aprox 120bc and oppidum stops to exist in circa 20-40 bc, probably because of German tribes coming in Bohemia. On acropolis there is supposed to have been an shrine, houses were complexes of buildings with central courtyard with one or few entrances to the complex.

The oppidum was center of industry, mining (iron deposits), pottery making and probably some rare metals (gold, silver) production, because there was found a lot of coins (it had its own mint workshop -only other mint to the Závist in whole Bohemia). Cultural and goverment center was Závist.

Nevězice
small oppidum - about 12 ha large, created at aprox 120 bc with round wooden wall with stone groundings, 2 gates. It was one of the "security centres" on important trade route on river Vltava. Quite quickly it become unhabitted, there is some evidence of fires in circa 50 bc and thereafter the stronghold on trederoute became the close "Zvíkov" settlement (maybe it was oppidum too, it is not known.

Oppidum Hrazany
On two hills - Doubí a Červenka and probably one of the first important oppidums in Bohemia settled around 550-460 bc and probably burned down quickly after inhabited. But quickly rebuild and the oppidum itself created aprox. 200 bc with about 30 ha large oppidum with wooden wall (5-6 meters thick and up to 10 metres high), 6 gates, and slowly expanded to 39 ha. It is evidence of large fire in about 95bc but oppidum is being rebuilt with aforementioned stone (or with stone bases) complexhouses with yard in center. Oppidum was important stronghold on important trade route along Vltava river - merchants going by to Závist and Stradonice and even to Germany. End of existence is quite mysterious (no violent events or fire) - it is supposed that people left oppidum because of german tribes moving to Bohemia in about 20 bc.

Oppidum Třísov
Settled up in circa 150 bc and another oppidum on traderoute by river Vltava, this oppidum being the southrnmost one of all. The pinnacle of its importance being in times around 100bc. 26ha large with stone walls, two acropolis and probably being important centre of comerce, light industry and religion - near the oppidum are two rocks called Dívčí kámen ("maidens rock" or "stone") that is considered full of powers by sensitive people and is considered thatit used to be altar to sacrifice young maidens in times that may reach the Boii inhabition of these lands. The oppidum having 7 metres thick walls, two gates. Many pottery workshops, really good iron smelting and even some glass made jewelry and dishes. Many evidence of trade contacts with Romans.

Staré Hradisko

oppidum laying on ember route with mighty fortifications on isolated land between two small rivers or creeks, estimated 37 ha large. Ember is found here even today. It is considered as one of the most important oppidums in central europe. Messages about ember heavy locations here are with us through whole medieval ("in loco, cui Gradisco nomen" - in the place called Hradisko - related to ember - 1552 - bishop of Olomouc Dubravius) or map from 1627 - "Hradisco, ubi myrrha effoditur" - Hradisko, where the myrrha (ember) is being found. The oppidum also having acropolis and also having large settlement around oppidum (as all aforementioned oppidums). Divided into 3 parts, total 2 gates and one gate between acropolis and part of the oppidum. Again complex houses with central yards (50x50 metres aprox). Some paved streets (as in Závist or Stradonice. Walls up to 6 metres (distance between bottom of the moat and the top of wall), thick 4 metres and more, length about 1.4 miles. Archeologists found a lot of pottery, iron, bronze and silver jewelry, weapons and everday use things, coins. A lot of ember goods, evidence of conection with baltic and even some roman coins. Thanks to this it is considered important center of trade, cult and culture. Founded about 200 bc and lasting for circa 100 years - 100-90 bc.

Hope it can be helpfull, can make some more research about anything for you from local sources. Btw: i live near to where Třísov oppidum used to be... Hope you won´t count it as spam...

I love EB, I am looking forward to EB 2!

[Maeran]

Thank you for those descriptions of oppida Bradley, and welcome to the forum!

[Cadwalader]

Vítej, Bradley!

I went to Stradonice with some Czech friends of mine. When I told them I wanted to see the actual oppidum, they looked at me like I was crazy. We ended up going to the museum there with their kids.

[Bradley]

Hey, thanks for welcoming :-) And yes, Oppida - you cant rekognize them at all today - look, here is where the Třísov oppidum used to be: 48.887429,14.352307 (google maps) and today there is only grassland. But when you are on the place, you can sense (with some guide, who tells you where to look), that here probably could be walls, here was gate and there used to be moat... Do you see that circle - made of trees, terain waves etc? It is there - starting and ending by the river, going by the village Třísov, then by the forrest slowly turning right (east) and turning to south through the field back to the river... You can have a picture how large it was.

[Cadwalader]

Yeah, that's why I'd like to see the hill where it actually stood. Although I never concidered finding it in google maps. Thanks for the idea!

[fightermedic]

many of the pictures in the OP are down :(

[war is hell]

I got so excited when i saw the word PREVIEW....thanks for the tease guys

[Red_Devil]

:laugh4:

can't imagine the feeling ^^

Also, the images must have been removed for later previews to free some storage space. In most EB previews, there's an awful load of images! ;)

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Some of the images were also hosted on Imagehost, and since we no longer use that service, it is possible that these images have gone offline or been removed.

[fightermedic]

yea, seems like half of all the older previews got their images deleted
too bad really, didn't you plan to host them on your own website at some point? seems quite worth the effort to me, it would really be kind of sad if those awsome prewievs were no longer available in the intended form

[Vlixes]

Same thing happens with the Getai preview. I guess we will have to wait for the release.

[B-Wing]

This is indeed disappointing. I revisited the Pritanoii preview recently and found that most of the images were still there, except for the unit previews. Which was the only reason I was revisiting it.