View Full Version : How to win as Oda?
Metalhead3004
04-04-2010, 21:34
Every time I try a campaign as Oda I get attacked from all sides be it rebels or rival clans. I can win with Shimazu or Mori (having the advantage of starting in a corner with the former and monkrushing with the latter) on normal, but with Oda I get owned.
Togakure
04-04-2010, 23:24
Ten tips of the top of my head:
1) Take advantage of cheap guns and the +1 honor bonus in Owari (gunners are ashigaru). Use them well (ranks three deep for rotating fire; backed by yari sams to prevent cavalry strikes). Learn to protect them well and maneuver effectively.
2) Take Yamashiro to use the +1 honor bonus there (I prefer to produce Yari Samurai there because it's the only region that can give YS a bonus (not related to a building).
3) Secure a 5-6 province front (I prefer Kawachi-Harima-Tajima in the west and Echizen-Mino-Owari in the east). Use castles to reduce the number of troops required to effectively defend.
4) Choose a direction (west or east; I usually go east because it's richer and there are fewer provinces--and the threat is usually bigger). Conquer that side of Japan while effectively defending central Japan. At first, you can use chevauchee (take a province, destroy what's there, back out without trying to hold it), particularly against developed provinces that the enemy is using to produce troops. You can even send "suicide" armies deep into enemy territory to destroy their key production regions.
5) infest the areas surrounding your borders with shinobi. If provinces are taken they are more likely to revolt, shifting focus towards the rebels and away from you.
6) optional: use assassins to take out generals, heirs, and daimyo, particularly if you are allied and stand a good chance to inherit their provinces.
7) central Japan is fairly rich if you invest in farming; you can also build a lot of ports.
8) train up or bribe 4-star generals for all your crucial defense points.
9) spend on dojo improvements (+1 honor = +1 Attack, +1 Def, and +2 Morale) rather than on swordsmiths (+1 Attack) and armories (+1 Def, +1 Armor) and palaces (+1 morale); they don't really give you equivalent bang for the koku.
10) Don't turtle too much; if you sit in central Japan without dealing with one side or another aggressively, you'll eventually be in a pinch (literally ...). That being said, "timing is everything ...."
FWIW.
I have a quick question...how do you deal with all those warrior monks that will undoubtebly gang up on you early in the game with a small army. I don't remember what the starting territories are in the traditional campaign. That tends to happen to me. Though I don't remember if I attacked a rebel province to the west or just sat in the provinces I controlled from the beginning.
Welcome to the org metalhead3004, enjoy your stay
:bow:
You can defeat the initial WMs in Yamashiro or Ise, however you need to make a choice; one or the other. There are lots of starts that can be done, a typical one for example is as follows:
Take over Ise, by using all your troops in Yamato, Kii, Iga, Omi (and some from Owari) together with the Daimyo (Nobuhide). The rebels of Yamashiro will take over the empty provinces however that suits Oda since Ise is very rich and it makes up for the lost provinces while at the same time it and Owari need far fewer troops to defend them. Next is build up your losses asap and attack Yamashiro which should be weakened in troop numbers from the rebels spreading out. Then you can have a continuous territory from Owari to Omi to Yamashiro to Kawachi. All this needs speed, otherwise Mori might get ideas in the West - make an alliance with him while you beat on the rebels. After the rebels in Yamashiro fall you are set up to mop up the rest of the rebels or ignore them and deal with the Imagawa or the Mori (you can do a pre-emptive strike in Mimasaka to slow their build up before heading northeast).
There can be endless variants of this with the Oda as the early game is fluid and very much dependent on the successes or failures of battles. Luckily Nobuhide gets quickly a heir.
After you set up in central Japan and you play MI/WE then you can do all sorts of things go either northeast of southwest or even stay in and turtle, building up your income and troops/tech etc before you make a decisive move or even play a subterfuge heavy game. Central Japan is fairly defendable with rivers in Owari and kawachi and Mountains in Mino and Tamba.
Nerd: defeating the WMs with yari Ashigaru and archers and the Daimyo, can be done assuming you play them en masse and you outnumber the enemy. Use mass and strength of numbers.
That's great! I never thought about using the 'pull out of a province' technique with Oda. I used it with Uesugi all the time, but never with Oda. I had won the Oda campaign on hard several times but I don't remember the technique. Noting my strategic and tactical brilliance those foolish warrior monks will soon fall to me seemingly inept and cowardly conscriptial ashigaru!
Jef Costello
04-05-2010, 10:26
Some great advice so far. I'd agree with it all. What difficulty level are you playing on? AI is more aggressive on higher levels. I would take/hold Owari and kawagucho and get yamashiro. Ise and Kii are good and you also have an armoury province there too. If you want to take the central area be quick, you don't want to tie up troops down there.
With Ashigaru you basically have to make sure they don't really do anything, they even get scared chasing down routing troops. Ashigaru need upgrades and a good general. personally I never build any.
I normally play with 60 man units which makes reinforcing quicker.
In general you should expect to win all of your defensive battles with rebels. archers on a high elevation and some ashigaru in case they charge you. Careful about chasing them when they rout because WM have a habit of turning around and slaughtering ashigaru.
And when battles are tight don't use the speed up, I have messed myself up so many times doing that :)
Kagemusha
04-05-2010, 11:45
post enough forces on your borders (preferably ashi´s and archers as ashi´s are dirt cheap).Save bit of money and bribe those monks. You will gain a nice core troops for your army from them.
Last time I played an Oda campaign the difficulty was set at hard. I'll take all of the above advice though, Oda seems like an entertaining campaign as I again wet my feet into that placid pool of shogunistitude. Soon you can all refer to me as Nerdy Nobunaga!
ReluctantSamurai
04-05-2010, 15:27
Depends on which campaign you play. 1530 and 1550 give you some time to consolidate and secure a hold on central Japan, as the main opposition is usually rebels. SJ is a bit more fluid and you will more than likely be in conflict with Tokugawa early on. 1580 will see you on the defensive, early on. Takeda and Tokugawa will have an alliance and come after you early and hard (as an example, see my last Oda 1580 campaign...Nobunaga's Ambition, with all the screenies).
The particulars are certainly up to you and your style of play.....much good advice has already been given. I can only add that:
1. You must be decisive. Turtling is rarely an option. If you don't have a clear plan for expansion, and follow it aggressively, you will find yourself fighting a two-front war that will be extremely difficult to win.
2. You must have patience. In central Japan, with potential enemies on all sides, it can get frustrating to be on the defensive...especially in the 1580 campaign. It will be somewhat difficult to blitz as the resources are scarce at the start, and expanding both north and south will be nearly impossible.
3. Muskets are the great equalizer for Oda. Get them ASAP! My own strategy usually consists of having defensive armies that rely heavily on the musket to hold the frontier while I build up my counterattack. When I've bled the enemy white with casualties, I strike back and sweep several provinces at a time. One thing Oda is blessed with is good generals. Use them aggressively. It's not uncommon for me to have at least a half dozen 4-star generals and a couple of 5-star by mid-campaign. Being well-led as such, often tips the battle to me whereas a lesser general might have had a more difficult time. That is one of the keys to using Ashigaru...they are less likely to rout. Many folks don't like Ashi, but if you use them wisely, they can be of tremendous use. I usually have a handful of 'elite' Ashi in defensive armies even late in the game. I've had them withstand WM's and just about anything else that gets thrown at them. So don't underestimate them.
So you convert to Christianity? Do you still use warrior monks? I heard you could still be Christian and use them. I've also heard their is a difference in the proficiency of the Portoguese and Dutch rifle units, is this true? If it is, how so? Never converted myself...too much of an infantry buff!
Jef Costello
04-05-2010, 16:26
I think Oda starts as christian in 1580. Shimazu certainly does (my current campaign) although he starts with his population at 0% christian which slows any expansion as you need to keep garrisons to prevent rebellions early on. I forgot about gun :). I like to have a row of archers behind my guns as back up and some infantry just in case. For the most part rebels run at the sight of guns but with a good general or a bit of cavalry they can surprise you.
Hi NordA Nobunaga,
there is no difference in performance between Portuguese and Dutch guns as far as i know. And by the way teppos (guns) are infantry units ;)
Once you get the hang of them, you'll be able to breeze through the campaign. In MI/WE guns are very very powerful - almost thrice more as powerful as in the original edition. For those who want to change that they can mod the gun stats to be closer to what the balance was intended.
Yari Ashigaru can beat Monks assuming you outnumber them, assuming that the honor levels aren't too different (not 1 honor YA versus 3 honor WMs) that you use them all at once (don't split your forces), make use of flanking, keep close to the fighting line your Daimyo/general, and shoot the monks some with archers prior and even perhaps during engagement. Especially honor 1 ashigaru that Oda get out of Owari, can do even better.
Yeah, I flanked similar honor warrior monks with ashigaru, equal army sizes, about 4 unit a piece, he had all monks I had one archer and three ashigaru. Honor levels the same 0-2. I hit them with arrows on the approach and up the hill, engaged what was left with ashigaru in the front and flanked with the other two from both sides. I won by the way.
Metalhead3004
04-05-2010, 18:09
These are all great tips, which I'm going to try out right now. Thanks for the help.
ReluctantSamurai
04-06-2010, 16:12
So you convert to Christianity? Do you still use warrior monks? I heard you could still be Christian and use them.
ASAP. Only when I play as Mori. Yes.
I never wait for the Dutch. By the time they arrive, I've already got muskets. IMHO, monks are overrated for what they cost. Yes there's the whole 'carrying their temples with them' thing that supposedly strikes fear into Christian hearts, but my teppo and archers cut them down in droves all the same. I prefer NoDachi...faster, with better attack stats. You can produce both. If you capture existing facilities from an enemy.
I've also heard their is a difference in the proficiency of the Portoguese and Dutch rifle units, is this true?
No. You are perhaps assuming the Gun Factory produces better guns (the manual says they do...but it isn't so).
Never converted myself...too much of an infantry buff!
You will find the later campaigns as Oda, verrrry difficult to play without teppo. As I stated in another thread....the ultimate nightmare campaign would be to play Oda 1580 with no guns:dizzy2:
For the most part rebels run at the sight of guns but with a good general or a bit of cavalry they can surprise you.
I have a little technique I use for taking down enemy cav with teppo. I first bait them with Cav archers who gradually fall back towards my waiting teppo (who are in 2 lines instead of the usual 3, are in loose formation, and FaW is off). When the CA are backed up against the muskets, they wheel and retreat through. The muskets then close ranks and fire. At such close range, and with a complete volley from all guns, the effect is devastating. The CA then wheel back around and charge, often in conjunction with another flanking unit. Not too many units can withstand this. It requires delicate timing but the effect is very pleasing, although not to the AI:laugh4:
to A Nerd:
here's an indication at how powerful guns can be (and these have stats altered to be as close to the original as possible)
From my 'Nobunaga's Ambition' campaign. Note the # of kills by the muskets, and the carpet of bodies on, and on both sides of the bridge.....
https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg120/scaled.php?server=120&filename=136go0.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
And from the same campaign.....who says Ashi can't fight? Check out the kills racked up by my two ashi units:
https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg519/scaled.php?server=519&filename=017ok8.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
Minor correction: the WMs are supposed to strike fear to biddhist hearts and have no effect on Christian armies, according to the manual.
:bow:
ReluctantSamurai
04-06-2010, 16:45
I stand corrected. Been a long time since I've read the manual, anyways:laugh4:
:bow:
It has been long suspected that they don't, however the MTW engine iirc has this option, so its possible that it was present in STW too.
:bow:
Togakure
04-08-2010, 00:38
When I play a gun game I just keep my monks and step up garrisons/secret police where needed. If I can have both, why not? That being said, nods work just fine in the shock troop role too.
iirc:
Unit charged by WM, -2 morale
Unit fired upon by arrows, -2 morale
Unit fired upon by guns (any type) -6 morale
The real power of guns is the effect on morale, not the damage they do.
There are other routes to take with the Oda, besides taking the centre first of course. By far the most ludicrous one is striking northeast. I mean, take out Imagawa, then takeda, then hojo then uesugi then work southwest (as hinted by Masamune), and leave Ise and yamashiro be until you have conquered the northeast. However, it is also risky, and requires fast action and skill and luck in battle. It is even riskier in 1.12 original, because of the high infrastructure costs (that do not apply to the AI especially for expert). I've had success in the past with this route - i managed something like total domination by 1552 (expert/1.12/120men). The first 10 years of the campaign were incredibly intense and epic.
:bow:
Hey all !
(Re)installed Shogun recently, played as the Sengoku Oda a lot, searched through forums for fancy strategies a bit, found this thread and registered :)
With Ashigaru you basically have to make sure they don't really do anything, they even get scared chasing down routing troops. Ashigaru need upgrades and a good general. personally I never build any.
Well, may I respectfully express the most complete disagreement, here ? :D
Ashis are arguably the best unit in the game. And Oda's Ashis are very special.
Yes, the best ! (and yes, arguably...)
1- Ashis are the cheapest units in the game ;
2- Ashis are the fastest runners on foot ;
3- Ashis slaughter cavalry.
1- Cheapest means :
- You can pump 4 a year out of your initial castle, which is not the case for other units. This provides you with massive reinforcements to fund your expansion AND lets you invest your kokus in farms, large castles, etc. Once in a while, you can build an archer, if your economy lets you.
- Ashis are excellent to garrison newly conquered provinces. Better use a 100 koku unit than an archer, right ? The alternative would be to use a spy, but it requires you to invest time & money in building the shinobi house, whereas garrisonned Ashis provide you with fast reinforcement to your front lines.
- If the losses of a battle are about equal, the Ashi user is tremendously ahead in kokus invested & lost : your Ashis fight units costing 2 to 5 times their price !
- You can plainly sacrifice a unit once in a while. Say... for crossing a bridge.
- You can have so many Ashis that you can use them to cover your lowly protected striking force (No-dachis). Having a few elite units that don't get flanked and overwhelmed sounds better than a bit more that do get decimated by ennemy archers & runners.
2- Fastest runners :
- Sooooo easy to maneuver & flank ennemy units. You can deal a lot of damage very fast.
- When you've routed the ennemy, you can keep on decimating them. That's so many units you won't have to face later on.
3- Slaughter cavalry :
Cavs are amongst the most fearful units in the game, no ? And when you're facing infantry, you should have ranged support.
This means that an army composed almost exclusively of Ashis and Archers can compete with almost anything (right numbers & general provided).
This starts to make some (debatable ?) points.
As for Oda, their Ashis, as mentionned above, are special.
The clear point is that they cost less to train and maintain. This basically strenghten what Ashis are already the best at : being cheap.
The less obvious point is that Owari is specialised in Ashigaru production. This is as if you started with a Sword Dojo when playing Shimazu : dreadful !
You can start building a farm or a port in Owari, right. But if you expand, you can build farms elsewhere. So you can also go : Large Castle, Famous Sword Dojo, Palace, Armoury. 14 seasons after the start of the game, you pump 4 Ashis a year with 2 honour, enhanced weapons & morale... I can tell you they're pretty good vs most of the field at that time...
Feel free to disagree :)
Togakure
04-22-2010, 20:22
Well put, TWD, and welcome to the Org/Sword Dojo. I am not the master ashi user here, but I do use them for 1) garrisons, 2) maintaining parity with enemy troop numbers on my borders to dissuade attack, and 3) arrow fodder on bridge assaults or in attack vanguard escorting shock troops as you described. Only in the Oda campaigns do I use them in combat often, but this may be because I got used to not using them at all online (they were forbidden because early on, players discovered that you could honor/upgrade them up to level 7-9 and make them "Super-Ashis," which could defeat just about anything for the koku, and broke the combat system).
You are using the Huge setting for unit size? I'd not considered the point you make that when using this setting, ashis are the only combat unit you can produce in a single turn. This is very interesting and something I will take advantage of when I finally get off my butt and play a Huge unit game (I play the standard unit size; that's what we almost always used in multi-player so I got used to it).
Their weakness is low morale, so keeping their morale up is key to success when using them. Sending a unit off on its own is usually a death sentence (but can be very useful in drawing the enemy out of formation, particularly archers for your cav to eat when they stray too far), but if you keep them together with flanks/rear protected, they can do some amazing things. A high-honor taisho is pretty much necessary if facing an enemy with a good general. I very rarely build combat improvements other than dojos, but an exception is palaces and swordsmiths in Owari/Tosa (I tend to produce only one type of unit in any given province except early on in my capital, and if I control the bonus province, I produce them there).
Ashis don't slaughter cav as readily as YS, but can certainly tie them up long enough for other units to come and help clean up. When I was playing the SamWars mod for MTW online, I often used an army of 4 gunners, 4 ashigaru, 3-4 monks, and 3-4 yari cav, and would put the ashis in pairs on either flank, slightly behind the gun line (back far enough not to take too many stray hits from gunfire, but close enough to protect the gunners from cavalry raids). Surprisingly, this worked very well when they were supported by the cav units if things got dicey. I also used them to tie up tough units for a short time, buying time for my other, better but preoccupied units to get there and deal with the problem. The SamWars mod eliminated the problem of "Super-Ashis" by making upgrades unnecessary and cost-prohibitive.
Thanks for your input, and again, Welcome.
post enough forces on your borders (preferably ashi´s and archers as ashi´s are dirt cheap).Save bit of money and bribe those monks. You will gain a nice core troops for your army from them.
This one worked for me. I did buy a few YS though. The rebels will not attack for some time, particularly if you leave a YA as a "garrison" in the provences adjacent to ISE & Yamashiro. I then attack west first as Owari & Mino are great to defend.
If you play on the old STW ( 1.12 version ) you cannot bribe anyone...
so here you must build up your forces and attack Ise & Yamashiro ( preferably in that order ).
Again maintain a small YA garrison in the next door provinces or the Rebels will attack, more likely here than with STW-WE. Build an armoury and a swordsmith and get ND. Match ND : WM and SA : SA and add a couple of YA ( at +1 honour ). Silver armour and improved weapons ( for the ND ) with a +1 or +2 general and you will beat the WM easy even with similar army numbers. Otherwise as posted for WE.
Indeed in 1.12 you cannot bribe with emissaries (that is another point of attraction for me) and Ashigaru take 2 turns to build. They cost however 1/2 a koku to maintain (unlike other infantry that cost 1koku and cavalry that cost 2 koku). I haven't played MI/WE for ages now, so can't remember how long they take to build there. In any case, yes, ashigaru can be used en masse and flank en masse at the opening stages of the game, and they are devastating as such. From the middle game onwards they need to be used a little less as the other clans get more advanced troops and an ashigaru heavy army may not do the same impression.
Kagemusha
04-23-2010, 07:24
This one worked for me. I did buy a few YS though. The rebels will not attack for some time, particularly if you leave a YA as a "garrison" in the provences adjacent to ISE & Yamashiro. I then attack west first as Owari & Mino are great to defend.
Nice to see same kind of thinking from other players. With Ise and Yamashiro in Oda control ones powerbase is solid.From there on it is just matter of opportunity to where to expand.
You have to admit, despite the difficutly, Oda is probably the most fun faction to play as!
Jef Costello
04-23-2010, 20:35
I've already quit Oda 1580 on expert twice.
The first time was about two turns in when I lost in hina and had another army trapped in hida, so I gave up. Then I tried again today and after taking a beating when 2500 men got sent against me in Owari I lost my temper and quit:)
I've never been any good at expert. I could only manage hard. I also heard the 1580 campaign as Oda was extremely difficult. That's why I only play Oda in SJ and at hard at most! I played Shimazu at hard in 1580 and those ronin factions ganging up on you can be a royal pain in the ***!
Its not so much a matter of winning with them that is the problem (though it is hard)
For me, the lack of expansion of AI oda because of the rebels leaves them dragging behind very quickly, if playing with the senjoku jidai era, the rebels take almost all of there starting regions within 5 turns, due to oda fighting battles they always lose and the rebels taking advantage of there unprotected settlements.
Shimazu is a bit predictable too, Mori should be in 1530 as well to act as a buffer.
ReluctantSamurai
04-24-2010, 14:12
I've already quit Oda 1580 on expert twice.
This was what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned patience. You are surrounded by enemies who all want your head and are forming alliances to get it. Expect to be on the defensive at first. You absolutely MUST hold Mino against the Takeda/Tokugawa alliance. If Mino goes, the whole interior of Oda's position becomes open to attack.
Guns...guns...guns. Learn how to use them, and use them effectively. As has already been mentioned, use the Oda ashi bonus to crank out high honor ashi with +3 weapon bonus (Oda 1580 starts with +3 dojo) in Owari. They will save your butt, early on. On expert, the AI will be like a rabid dog that just won't let go.
My suggestion is to abandon Hida, at first. You don't have enough cavalry to defend your flanks and funnel the attackers into the valley towards your center. Hida is of no economic importance, anyway. Defend Mino!!! A normal defense of Mino is easy by camping on top of either hill and waiting for the attackers to come to you. But with two armies to deal with at once, and the cavalry-heavy Takeda, this is difficult the first year. I would suggest you take the wooded hill at the left-rear of the map with your ashi tucked into the woods on both flanks. Place your teppo on the hill just below the wooded area....they have a good firing line-of-sight from there. Make Imagawa's BFN your first priority...they will wreak havok with your teppo otherwise. Once they are routed or killed, take out Takeda's heavy cav with your ashi. You have your 5-star heir to lead, so they will hold if not flanked. Crank out teppo and ashi in Owari, and keep feeding them into Mino. Use the +1 bonus for Yamashiro to crank out YS to help bolster your line troops. Eventually, the onslaught will weaken and you can go over to the offensive.
Read over the AAR from my last Oda 1580 campaign (Nobunaga's Ambition) to see just how aggressive it can get. There are other fine AAR's from the past to read as well.
Keep trying until you master it. I know how frustrating it can get.........I was too until I learned to play defensive and wait for the right moment to strike.......
Well put, TWD, and welcome to the Org/Sword Dojo. I am not the master ashi user here, but I do use them for 1) garrisons, 2) maintaining parity with enemy troop numbers on my borders to dissuade attack, and 3) arrow fodder on bridge assaults or in attack vanguard escorting shock troops as you described. Only in the Oda campaigns do I use them in combat often, but this may be because I got used to not using them at all online (they were forbidden because early on, players discovered that you could honor/upgrade them up to level 7-9 and make them "Super-Ashis," which could defeat just about anything for the koku, and broke the combat system).
You are using the Huge setting for unit size? I'd not considered the point you make that when using this setting, ashis are the only combat unit you can produce in a single turn. This is very interesting and something I will take advantage of when I finally get off my butt and play a Huge unit game (I play the standard unit size; that's what we almost always used in multi-player so I got used to it).
Thanks for the greetings :)
I'm glad my post gave you ideas for a new strategy but, no, I don't play with 120men units. I can see how pumping 480 Ashis a year out of a single castle is appealing, though.
My point was mostly economical :
Without Ashigarus, you start the game either teching or producing troops, especially if you're not playing Oda. I do hate having a sword dojo that does not produce troops.
With Ashigarus, you can both develop your infra and train troops. Whatever the clan (except maybe for the Uesugi&Takeda) I now systematically start with 2 Ashis in the starting castle.
As usual with Ashigarus, the strategy gets stronger with Oda and lasts longer.
--> Ashis allow a powerful rush because of the limited starting koku supply (expert difficulty). And... a successful rush snowballs into a won game.
I'm sure many do better, but as an illustration, here's the state of the game for SJ campaign Oda save I have.
Summer 1636. All clans are alive. War with Imagawa, Mori, Hojo & no alliance :
Annual income : 8200 ; Profit : 6500.
Western frontier : Harima, Yamashiro --> raids on Mori to soften him.
Eastern frontier : Shinano (Shinano !) & Musashi (Musashi !).
Fortress in Owari (but no farm, yet), fortress in construction in Totomi, where there is also a Sword dojo --> this was accomplished almost exclusively with outnumbering ashis and some archers. Now No-Dachis come online.
I don't have an armoury, yet (I said I was sure many did better, right ?)
It should be stressed that Oda, in the SJ campaign, starts with a 1000+men total army AND a very large farming income if he secures Ise and Yamashiro. Provided you mass your men under your Daymio's command or your heir's, you can storm any direction you want. Personally, I target the kokus then whoever looks like a future danger.
I have no experience of the later campaigns. I imagine Ashis become less effective :
1- against a human player ;
2- as the tech level rises (but they allow a rush which, in turn, prevents rivals to rise their tech level...).
ReluctantSamurai
04-26-2010, 13:42
Oda 1580, while it has some things in common with earlier campaigns, is also vastly different. The first major change is that everyone's infrastructure is quite well developed right from the start, and there are two other clans besides the Oda who are Christian and therefore have access to guns.
So you will be facing BFN from Tokugawa, cavalry with gold armor upgrades from Takeda, Nodachi and Kensei with +3 attack bonus and teppo from Shimazu, lots of monks from Mori, and....if you haven't disabled the feature, geisha within a decade or so from Hojo.
So yes, while the ashi still help to get the economy off the ground, and help to bolster the line during the initial onslaughts, they are not nearly so effective against guns and gold armor cavalry. I still have several ashi in my armies well into the 1580 camp despite the lessening of their effectiveness. They are usually have been recombined from very high honor depleted units and usually are garrisoned in Owari.
Jef Costello
04-26-2010, 23:31
I took yamashiro, and held it for a fair while and I took mikawa and totomi (I burned Totomi down because I wasn't sure if I could hold it).
I lost Hino and retook it and I also took Wakasa.
Now Shimazu just hit me with 5000 troops in wakasa! I retrested to save my army and hopefully he'll split his forces a bit. I threw a few units at border provinces to distract him as well. Hojo and Takeda are fighting over western japan (I forgot I took the province southeast of Musashi) Tokugawa is broken after I took his provinces from him, he's alive in hizen and might be hanging on to some other provinces. Shimazu has taken the western half of Japan and is powering towards me.
Also Iga (?) will only produce shinobi and cavalry even though I have all the buildings necessary to produce YS, naginata etc. They can be queued but they are never produced.
ReluctantSamurai - thanks for the advice, Tokugawa's BFN were difficult. They are invisible to my teppo until they are too close to be fired upon. I managed to destory most of them in one big battle, I lost a lot of men but when I remembered that he'd lost over 100 BFN I felt better :)
You absolutely MUST hold Mino against the Takeda/Tokugawa alliance. If Mino goes, the whole interior of Oda's position becomes open to attack.
Agreed. Personally, I find this province the best to defend ( after the bridge provinces ). I have not lost a battle here to date since siting my army (as below).
[QUOTE]Defend Mino!!! A normal defense of Mino is easy by camping on top of either hill and waiting for the attackers to come to you.
I use the right hand hill, and line up behind the central ridge, between the "valley" and the wood. Most of the left flank is protected by the impassible valley wall and the rest of the left flank and the rear of the army is protected by a steep slope. The enemy also has to climb a steep slope before it can reach the "plain" to the front of your troops, as it usually advances to the "valley" mouth before moving to engage you. Don't come off of this hill when pursuing either.
Indeed in 1.12 ... and Ashigaru take 2 turns to build.
Is this correct? If so how and when does it apply?
A Unit setting of Huge ( 120 men ) appears to take one turn only for Ashigaru whilst others take two turns. The normal ( 60 man ) unit setting takes one turn for ALL units.
I haven't played MI/WE for ages now, so can't remember how long they take to build there.
I have only ever used a 60 man unit setting. They take the same time here as in the older STW.
ReluctantSamurai
04-30-2010, 18:40
I use the right hand hill, and line up behind the central ridge, between the "valley" and the wood.
Just about the same spot I use. But I find it a bit easier, for the first attack, to defend to the left-rear. There's just not enough cavalry, at the start, to prevent a flanking maneuver by Takeda's cav. The biggest advantage for this site is that your muskets can begin to take the enemy under fire from a longer distance, whereas on top of the hill you have to wait until they crest. Of course your archers have no such problems:laugh4:
I've used every and all favorable terrain spots, even the left-hand hill, which takes a little more micro-managing but still effective.
Don't come off of this hill when pursuing either.
Sage advice! The first time my YC got caught on the downhill side of reinforcement cavalry arriving, was the last time I ventured that far (unless it's definitely the last wave of attackers).
Just about the same spot I use. But I find it a bit easier, for the first attack, to defend to the left-rear. There's just not enough cavalry, at the start, to prevent a flanking maneuver by Takeda's cav.
Most of the battles I have fought at this position have had "head on" attacks rather than flanking attempts.
So I have had no such problem to date. Sometimes the AI will attack through the valley with some units, but usually NOT cavalry!!
The biggest advantage for this site is that your muskets can begin to take the enemy under fire from a longer distance, whereas on top of the hill you have to wait until they crest. Of course your archers have no such problems:laugh4:
I tend to avoid using teppo here anyway. I prefer them in flater provinces! That said , I tend not to use many anyway - the AI always seems to generate wet weather in the battles when I use them!!
Version 1.12 (original STW with 1.12 patch without MI) is different in many respects to STW warldord/MI (that are the same) DEB8. In there ashigaru in huge take 2 turns to build, infrastructure takes twice as long and costs twice as much to build and Naginata have their original cool skin and not the yari sam immitation one. Also battle stats are different (better in terms of balance imo - but the stats in warldord/mi can be modded), battlefield ninja, kensai and naginata cav do not appear as do not the drill dojo and the battlefield ninja dojo. Also emmissaries cannot bribe and there aren't any faction reappearances and historical campaigns - only the sengoku campaign.
:bow:
ReluctantSamurai
05-07-2010, 15:17
So I have had no such problem to date. Sometimes the AI will attack through the valley with some units, but usually NOT cavalry!!
A lot depends on who initiates the attack. If it is Imagawa, then his forces start in the valley and Takeda's begin on his left flank which puts them in a position to try to turn your right flank, which I've found the AI tries to do.
If Takeda initiates the attack, then he's the one in the valley with Imagawa on his left. That has it's problems, too, because those BFN have a heyday in those two patches of forest on your right flank.
I use muskets, not arquebus, so they still fire in the rain....just not as effectively. But the morale impact is the biggest factor in using guns (although they can rack up the kills) and this is unaffected by rain. Guns can do well even in hilly provinces. Give me a couple of honor 5 teppo just below the crest of that monster hill in Shinano and I will lay you out a carpet of samurai bodies to walk down the hill upon:laugh4:
Version 1.12 (original STW with 1.12 patch without MI) is different in many respects to STW warlord/MI (that are the same) DEB8.
As previously stated, I have both - so I am aware of that...
In there ashigaru in huge take 2 turns to build, infrastructure takes twice as long and costs twice as much to build
As previously stated; I asked the question as I have not yet played with any unit size ( on either game ) at other than 60. Another poster appears to say Ashi's take 1 turn on hugh and Sami's 2 turns. So one of you would appear to be incorrect...
I have had a look at my MTW 1.12 at each of the various unit sizes :-
60 & 80 man units take 1 turn to build. 100 & 120 man units take 2 turns to build ( with Shinobi's, Ninja's & Emissaries taking 1 turn ).
Ashigaru's take the same time to build as Samurai etc. at each level of unit size. I took your comment as : Ashigaru's take two turns to build ( and the others take 1 turn ). Perhaps I was wrong.
TWD : Having reread your reply to Masamune's "misunderstanding" re the production of Ashigaru's, I now understand your comments. I presumed the same as Masamune in my comments above and in earlier posts. Apologies.
...battlefield ninja, kensai and naginata cav do not appear as do not the drill dojo and the battlefield ninja dojo. Also emmissaries cannot bribe and there aren't any faction reappearances and historical campaigns - only the sengoku campaign.
Again, I am aware of these things...
A lot depends on who initiates the attack. If it is Imagawa, then his forces start in the valley and Takeda's begin on his left flank which puts them in a position to try to turn your right flank, which I've found the AI tries to do. If Takeda initiates the attack, then he's the one in the valley with Imagawa on his left. That has it's problems, too, because those BFN have a heyday in those two patches of forest on your right flank.
You appear to be referring to a joint attack by Imagawa & Takeda. To date I have only had to deal with single clan attacks ( thank God ). I'll bear it in mind though for the future.
I use muskets, not arquebus, so they still fire in the rain....just not as effectively.
Ah, I had forgotten that muskets are better in MTW/WE 1.02 ( when compared to MTW 1.12 ) re rain. Perhaps I'll get some in due course.
A Question:
So far in my game, the Dutch have not arrived. It is rather unusual considering the late date. I note also that neither my clan or the last remaining AI clan ( Takeda ) have built any ( traced ) Portuguese Trading Posts. Is it possible the Dutch only "arrive" after a Portuguese Trading Post has been built by someone?
ReluctantSamurai
05-14-2010, 19:48
I can't recall any recent Oda 1580 campaign that I've played where they weren't allied. I've always had to face them both in Mino within the first year.......and every year thereafter until I kill one of them off:dizzy2:
AFAIK, the appearance of the Dutch has no relationship to the Portuguese showing up. I could be wrong, tho'.....
I never wait for the Dutch anyways. I take the first Portuguese offer and run with it until I have a gun factory and muskets.
Togakure
05-15-2010, 01:50
IIRC, the Dutch appear like clockwork in 1561 in the SJ campaign, somewhere on the map in the west. Not sure about the added campaigns in WE. if you're playing an Eastern faction however, you won't likely see them until much later.
I did a quick search to see if anyone else noted the date the Dutch arrive and found these:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/451526-shogun-total-war-warlord-edition/faqs/21099
Search on 1561 within the document to find the statement.
This, I noted, is hosted on the Mizu server somewhere:
http://files.mizus.com/files/STW_WE/Guides/stw_Hint_CD/Hints%20and%20tips/Preview2.html
So I think it's a safe bet to assume that the Dutch arrive in the game somewhere in 1561, though you might not see them until later depending on what clan you are playing and where your empire is on the map.
I can't recall any recent Oda 1580 campaign that I've played where they weren't allied. I've always had to face them both in Mino within the first year.......and every year thereafter until I kill one of them off:dizzy2:
Ah, I see the misunderstanding. I am not playing the Oda 1580 campaign. Just a standard campaign.
IIRC, the Dutch appear like clockwork in 1561 in the SJ campaign, somewhere on the map in the west. Not sure about the added campaigns in WE. if you're playing an Eastern faction however, you won't likely see them until much later.
Currently playing ODA in the standard campaign. The year is now two or three years past 1574.
AFAIK, the appearance of the Dutch has no relationship to the Portuguese showing up. I could be wrong, tho'.....
To clarify my question, as it may have been misunderstood :-
The Portuguese turned up a long long time ago in my current game and I accepted an offer to trade with them. However, I have not built a Trading post until recently ( approx. 1575 ). It is now ( approx.) 1577. Up to the date I built the Portuguese Trading post, the Dutch have never visted me ( or if the lack of messages is to be believed ), anyone else. Indeed, although I have captured or viewed ALL of the ports around the whole of Japan, I have not seen any Trading posts of any kind ( Portuguese or Dutch ). Also I have not witnessed any "teppo" units of any kind.
Therefore, it "appears" the Dutch will not arrive until :-
a) the Portuguese have arrived
b) only after a Portuguese Trading Post has been built.
Does anyone agree or disagree with my surmise? Historically, it seems
( to me ), to be correct.
N.B. If a Portuguese Trading post is built by someone before 1561 ( this is normally to be expected ), then the Dutch may well arrive at that date. In my game however, that was not the case.
Togakure
05-19-2010, 07:18
I disagree with your surmise. In a Sengoku Jidai campaign, I believe the Dutch arrive somewhere on the map in 1561, as I stated previously. You may not see them--ever--but that's when they arrive.
In your game I would guess it to be a fluke; you just never saw them. I've seen the Dutch arrive in 1561 exactly, again and again and again when playing Shimazu, Mori, Takeda, Imagawa, etc.. That, combined with documented observations of others on the 'net, convinces me beyond reasonable doubt.
But it doesn't matter ;). Enjoy the game.
The Dutch/Potuguese arrivals are indeed independent, hardcoded events. There is no relation between the two. They arrive at their fixed hardcoded dates and then start to travel the map dropping in at ports en route. This is why you will first meet their emissaries at different dates depending on which faction you are playing.
:bow:
The Dutch/Potuguese arrivals are indeed independent, hardcoded events. There is no relation between the two. They arrive at their fixed hardcoded dates and then start to travel the map dropping in at ports en route. This is why you will first meet their emissaries at different dates depending on which faction you are playing.
:bow:
You state that the arrival dates are "Hard Coded". Fair enough. Is it possable for them not to visit you at all? I say that as it is now some 15 plus years since 1561 in my latest game, and I have not yet had a visit.
To date, I have never completed a game without a vist from the Dutch - but this one is fast going that way as I only have 3 provinces left to conquer. The only unusual factor in this game is that the very first Portuguese Trading Post ( anywhere by anyone ) was only built approx. 2 years ago.
A thought - the little ships that visit the Campaign map ports have red & yellow flags. Does anyone know if the Portuguese and the Dutch are represented by the same or different "ships". If the latter, does anyone know the different flag colours used.
If the latter, does anyone know the different flag colours used.
I don't know. I've never really noticed. I would guess the flags are purely decorative and not historic or representaive of the dutch or portuguese. I don't know what either flag looked like at the time so don't quote me on that.
I have a second STW ( 1.12 version ) game, running concurrently with my previously refered to STW(WE) game. In both I am playing ODA ( full S.J. Campaign ). I have just had what I believe is the first ( I may be wrong ), video and message re Dutch Traders. The year is 1593 and the visit was at Hizen province. Note this was not an Emissary visit, just "first" contact.
ReluctantSamurai
05-30-2010, 15:12
As Asai has stated, the dates are hardcoded. You, as the player may not necessarily get an offer at that prescribed date, but they are showing up elsewhere, to be sure. This is why I never wait for them, anymore. You can have muskets (not just the arquebus) long before any other clan by accepting the first Portuguese offer and running with it. If your concern is for rebelliousness, then plan ahead and have shinobi ready to placate the populace. If you prefer having monks (although you can have both monks and guns) then I suppose you can wait for the Dutch.
I've stop using monks a long while back, except if I capture Kii or Kaga with fully developed dojo's, or if I'm playing Mori. The added benefit of having both cathedral and trading post income far outweighs the impact of monks, IMHO. I've had several campaigns where I wouldn't have survived without those two sources of income.
Just my 2koku on the matter;)
As Asai has stated, the dates are hardcoded. You, as the player may not necessarily get an offer at that prescribed date, but they are showing up elsewhere, to be sure. This is why I never wait for them, anymore.
I recently finished my Oda (SJ) game (STW (WE) 1.02), with ALL provinces captured by Autumn 1579.
I have not had any Dutch Emmisary's visit me or seen a single Dutch ship visit ANYWHERE. Also, not one province that was captured had either a Dutch OR a Portuguese Trading Post in it and neither did any Watchtower or Border Fort spot one in an adjacent province before capture. Further, not one enemy army had a Teppo unit in it.
It would appear (IMHO) that the "Hard Code" has a percentage attached. The odds of failing a "die roll" for so long after 1561 (approx. 68 turns) may be low, but are apparently not impossable.
You can have muskets (not just the arquebus) long before any other clan by accepting the first Portuguese offer and running with it. If your concern is for rebelliousness, then plan ahead and have shinobi ready to placate the populace. If you prefer having monks (although you can have both monks and guns) then I suppose you can wait for the Dutch.
I have not built a Portuguese TP in any of my previous games, and only finally built one in the latter (approx.) 2/3 years of this last game. I prefer to await the Dutch. I hate those Catholics and I like using Ninja's on any Priests! I have never had a rebellion as I keep the Loyalty levels high - I never Tax over the normal rate and cut the Tax level if any province goes below 120% in the middle/ end game. Sometimes a bad or worse harvest will leave me without funds, but that's life. In truth, I should really save some funds when I get a good harvest or better, but there's always something I need to buy!
ReluctantSamurai
06-28-2010, 01:42
I prefer to await the Dutch. I hate those Catholics and I like using Ninja's on any Priests!
I couldn't care any less about the religious preference of the gaijin. They bring me guns and an offer to trade. Both give me an edge over my opponents. If that edge gets me to the Shogunate before anyone else, then I will take it. By taking the Portuguese offer, I have muskets at least 10 years before anyone else.
Oda would have your head on a pike to hear such talk!
Just kidding, of course:laugh4:
Sometimes a bad or worse harvest will leave me without funds, but that's life.
Maybe so, but string 5 or 6, or even 7 (I had 7 on one occasion) consecutive poor harvests and you will not even have enough koku for replacements, let alone for new units or construction. I prefer the certainty of getting 200 koku from each trading post, and 200 from each church when I have a cathedral.
Maybe so, but string 5 or 6, or even 7 (I had 7 on one occasion) consecutive poor harvests and you will not even have enough koku for replacements, let alone for new units or construction. I prefer the certainty of getting 200 koku from each trading post, and 200 from each church when I have a cathedral.
If you keep hiking taxes up in the autumn and leaving them low for the rest of the year you may see a lot more "poor" or worse still, "terrible" harvests. In my latest campaign I've just had 4 terrible harvests in a row and then remembered that hiking up taxes in this manner can cause it.
:bow:
ReluctantSamurai
07-03-2010, 02:18
Terrible harvests? I've never seen one of those, and I'd rather not:sweatdrop:
Is this something that is peculiar to the original vanilla STW, or have I just been having the kind of luck I wish I had while in Vegas?
Bringing poor harvests by raising taxes in the fall is also something I've not heard of....
I never do that anyway....if I've set punitive taxes, I usually leave them to the point of rebellion.
Just goes to show you can play a game for nearly a decade and still have something new to learn.....:bow:
I've not seen a terrible harvest in STW/MI 1.02, but I've seen more of them than I want to in STW v1.12. I actually think they might have been removed from MI/WE.
:bow:
ReluctantSamurai
07-03-2010, 13:22
I actually think they might have been removed from MI/WE.
That must be the case, then. The WE edition is what I've had from day 1, and considering the number of campaigns I've played over the last 10 yrs., I should have run into a 'terrible' harvest at some point........
Hey guys,
I went back my homecity to visit my parents last weekend, and I decided to play STW again on my old computer, after many years. I selected to play Oda 1580 - known as the hardest campaign.
It was a pleasure to back to the lands of Japan, and i was hell harder than any other TW game as expected. Because now I have so many rules which stricts me from using the tricks of the game:
* Re-play battles after you lost so many men is illegal.
* Re-play turns because of unexpected enemy moves are illegal. (Its allowed only if you forget to move something)
* The destruction of buildings, because of the threat of losing the province, is illegal.
* Suicidal armies walks through enemy territories and destroys enemy heartland is illegal.
* You have to accept the christianity in the same turn its been offered, if your clan was accepted it historically.
* Training counter-religion's units is illegal. (You cant train monks with Oda, and you must disband any, after accepting
Christianity.)
* Mass-Training non-specific units of your clan is illegal. (If you are Oda, you cant train Heavy Cavalry horde.)
With this rules, 1580 Oda is like impossible to win. But the fun is definite!
I really enjoyed my play.. As always, Takeda and Imaawa attacked Mino and defeated me. I lost all my provinces except Owari and the neighbour of it. (The one with the Cathedral.)
More dire thing is, even Rebels turned against me, which supposed to be a buffer between me and Mori & Shimazu. Yamashiro, and even my the inland provinces were plundered...
I have lost many battles, and all my heirs have been killed, except the best one. (Even he surrounded in small castle once.) BF Ninjas, Heavy Cavalries... But Musket fire prevailed! I like losing battles and provinces, because I have forgot the feeling since Rome TW.
Anyway after 2 days I had to back to Istanbul which I work there, and at the time I left the game, I was took all my provinces back, including the two key provinces, Shinano and Kawachi. It will be lots of fun to try to march on against two borders at the same time, struggling with Mori + Shimazu + Hojo + Takeda. (Imagawa and Uesugi are somehow about to disappear)
STW is definitely most enjoyable game of TW series, and struggling on all the front, while losing key provinces is such an excitement that no other TW games can be reached.
ReluctantSamurai
08-13-2010, 16:11
With this rules, 1580 Oda is like impossible to win. But the fun is definite!
With rules like those, you are certifiably crazy:dizzy2:
Just kidding, of course:laugh4:
Actually, of the rules you laid down for yourself, the only one I don't hold myself to is the training of HC. I tend to not use them much anyway, but still, I usually train a small number of them once I reach Shinano.
As always, Takeda and Imaawa attacked Mino and defeated me.
That's the very first battle that you must win, although you seem to have eventually recovered from your loss. I strip everything else to the bare bones to ship troops to Mino and you absolutely have to maximize the damage to them from your guns because they will keep coming, season after season until you kill one...or both of them. The only respite you will get is by devastating the attacking armies so badly that it takes them several seasons to amass enough troops to continue. This is your primary goal, at the start. Bleed them in one defensive battle after another while you slowly build new armies in your hinterlands for the eventual counter-attack.
That first battle is one of the few times I do not defend Mino from the big hill to the right of the valley. That hill doesn't offer an immediate line-of-fire for your guns. You have to wait for the enemy to crest the edge. If Imagawa leads the attack, his BFN will get into your guns rather quickly and rout them. The battle is as good as over, at that point. If Takeda leads the attack, his cavalry will get into your guns before you can do much damage to them. And again, you can kiss Mino goodbye.
But from the hill in the far left corner, your guns have maximum line-of-sight, and because it's a steep hill, you can place your YA directly in front of the guns as the teppo will be able to shoot over them. The other advantage is that one or the other will reach you before their ally, allowing you to defeat them, piecemeal. In my experience, Imagawa is most often the initiator, so you can concentrate on taking out his BFN first. Once they are gone, he has nothing but YS & SA and becomes less of a threat than Takeda's approaching cavalry.
I'm sure there are other ways to do it. I've tried various tactics, but the one I've described always seems to net me the most kills for the least damage to my own. I'll have to spruce up my last Oda campaign (Nobunaga's Ambition) as some of the links to screenies seem to not work...but you can look there to see some of the kill ratios I managed to achieve.
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