Dutch Marines Shove Wooden Shoe up Pirate posterior: Give Finger to EU

[Vladimir]

Go dutchies! :netherlands:

I'm really tempted to post this without commentary. As most of you may assume, I'd prefer to solve the Somali pirate crisis by taking out a town or two. Until then, we'll have to rely on the Dutch.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gB7YMEDuCwwY9ncDOtPAkEI4-H2wD9ETSR1O2

I like this one:

"The pirates surrendered the moment they saw the marines,"

Is there any doubt that a decent show of force would deter further attacks?

[Strike For The South]

Hans Lodder would make a good villian in DIE HARD

[Banquo's Ghost]

I tend to agree that acts of piracy should be met with appropriate force such as this. However:


Lodder first ascertained that the freighter's crew had locked themselves in a bulletproof room.

I'm not entirely sure how he guaranteed this, but such a situation helped his attempt. Further aggressive attacks will simply mean that the hostages are kept in areas of the ship where they can be threatened or used as human shields. Even the Dutch are unlikely to go Rambo when innocents are going to die en masse. (And for the record, the French Navy has been shooting up the Somalis for some time).

[Furunculus]

awesome story cheers.

[al Roumi]

As most of you may assume, I'd prefer to solve the Somali pirate crisis by taking out a town or two.

Is there any doubt that a decent show of force would deter further attacks?

yeah, charging in like that would be good.

https://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv352/sirjamesthegood/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

Until there is an legitimate and acceptable (to Somali's, or whoever) legal punishment for piracy (i.e. not death at the hands of a foreign Government), there won't be a truly positive change. Unfortunately, that might require some sort of Somali state... oh dear.

Edit: My apologies for the pic but...

[Vladimir]

This is more appropriate:

https://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1116/pimphand1.jpg (https://img706.imageshack.us/i/pimphand1.jpg/)

And one for you as well. :yes:

There is a tried and true way to stop pirates; and the legal system isn't it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

There is a tried and true way to stop pirates; and the legal system isn't it.

Yes, it is - and has been for a couple of centuries. Barbarism merely creates more barbarism.

[Fragony]

Glad nobody got hurt that's all.

Even the Dutch are unlikely to go Rambo

Very unlikely

[al Roumi]

And one for you as well. :yes:

There is a tried and true way to stop pirates; and the legal system isn't it.

LOL what are you going to do? Make them walk the plank?

Shiver me timbers that'l sort the lilly-livered lot out won't it, Bosun.

Make it legal, then you can go send your pimpslapping forces in.

[Vladimir]

Yes, it is - and has been for a couple of centuries. Barbarism merely creates more barbarism.

You know better (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War).

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Barbary_War

[Fragony]

Make it legal, then you can go send your pimpslapping forces in.

We prefer 'practising flat hand theorists'

[Banquo's Ghost]

You know better (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War).

You might do well to actually read what you linked, because it really doesn't support your view on ignoring legal process. Also, having an actual state leader to work with helps enormously, not to mention relying on the protection of the British. :beam:

[Vladimir]

Make it legal, then you can go send your pimpslapping forces in.

I will make it legal.

[al Roumi]

You might do well to actually read what you linked, because it really doesn't support your view on ignoring legal process. Also, having an actual state leader to work with helps enormously, not to mention relying on the protection of the British. :beam:

Avast me hearty! :applause: I was just going to say the same, having read through both wikis. Somalia is a truer power vacuum than the Barbary coast -the pirates themselves have probably more resources than anyone on the mainland who might be able hold them to account or reign them in...

[Vladimir]

I don't have a view on ignoring legal processes. The links aren't about establishing a legal argument against piracy, which is pretty much illegal everywhere in Europe (in less you're English). This isn't about establishing legal processes to impose law on the lawless. It's about taking action against common and undisciplined pirates.

Clearly you will both see what you want to. The fact that there isn't a legitimate government government to enforce its authority doesn't mean other nations can't take action. Good luck with establishing a strong central government in Somalia. Until then lives and money will be lost because of these attacks. Perhaps you think the Moro pirates are a better example.

[al Roumi]

I don't have a view on ignoring legal processes. The links aren't about establishing a legal argument against piracy, which is pretty much illegal everywhere in Europe (in less you're English). This isn't about establishing legal processes to impose law on the lawless. It's about taking action against common and undisciplined pirates.

Indeed, piracy is illegal. Invading territory without a legitimate cassus belli (or UN mandate) is also illegal.

Finding and applying a legitimate legal solution is the challenge, otherwise any action taken is likely to cause more problems -even if it solves the immediate piracy one.

Somali (there was also some Yemeni?) piracy is a big legal headache for anyone trying to deal with it (questions of sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability) -hence why it was easier for the Dutch force to circumvent the EU mission and its red-tape (inevitable for any multilateral mission).

But perhaps you don't think sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability are worth considering?

[Vladimir]

Indeed, piracy is ilegal. Invading territory without a legitimate cassus belli (or UN mandate) is also illegal.

Finding and applying a legitimate legal solution is the challenge, otherwise any action taken is likely to cause more problems -even if it solves the immediate piracy one.

Somali (there was also some Yemeni?) piracy is a big legal headache for anyone trying to deal with it (questions of sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability) -hence why it was easier for the Dutch force to circumvent the EU mission and its red-tape (inevitable for any multilateral mission).

But perhaps you don't think sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability are worth considering?

Hopefully I don't sound too harsh. I'm not seriously advocating a ground invasion or a good old fashioned Roman massacre. Clearly these pirates control ports, areas of land, and naval assets. In the age of satellite imagery and remote control drones it is easy to identify who the bad actors are and destroy whatever necessary to halt the attacks. I'd prefer a peaceful solution but these attacks will continue into the foreseeable future.

This is a profitable business. I shudder to think where all the money from these raids is going. The more time we give them, the more time they have to organize, upgrade, and cause harm.

[Fragony]

But perhaps you don't think sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability are worth considering?

Dutch army aren't cowboys, there has to be a very good reason if they consider using deadly force. Does raise the question of why here and why now, passengers weren't in acute danger so what's on the ship.

[rvg]

Well done, Dutchies. Well done indeed.

[al Roumi]

This is a profitable business. I shudder to think where all the money from these raids is going. The more time we give them, the more time they have to organize, upgrade, and cause harm.

Land Cruisers and wives I seem to remember reading... I understand the massive payouts the piracy has provided have completely inflated the local bride-prices (dowry), pricing out non-pirates and driving up the reasons to engage in a bit of filibustering... :smile: No source to hand, but will see if I can get one at some point.

[Fragony]

Moar pirate related fun http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe2_1269809181

Well would you

[Vladimir]

Moar pirate related fun http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe2_1269809181

Well would you


Meet Sexy Women in your Area!

All I got out of that article is something about meeting sexy Dutch women.

Hat tip to Banquo and Mr. P. ~;)

[Tellos Athenaios]

And that Pirates will even attempt a raid on a Naval frigate to meet them, if only accidentally. ~;)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Bah. All this talk of escalating violence ignores the fact that pirates are looking for easy targets, not shootouts.

I remember when the Maersk Alabama was hijacked and the captain captured, and how so many people said it'd be terrible for crews to resist with gunfire. How it would lead to more violence from the pirates and dead crew.

But then pirates again attacked the Alabama and the crew (including private security forces) responded with gunfire and repelled the pirates (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-11-18-somali-pirates-us_N.htm?csp=34). The crew members came out ahead, as none of them were kidnapped.

Even in that article some pansy foreign type moans about how the shipping community is 'solidly against' something proven to work, because of the 'idea' that states are supposed to provide security, and, I suppose, if they aren't doing that well enough you're just supposed to suffer and not try to protect yourself.

And yes, we should go to the pirate enclaves and sink a bunch of ships. Barbarism leads to more barbarism? BAH! These pirates are practically granted sanctuary. If they found repercussions extending beyond the immediate time of the attack, they'd go into something less dangerous. It's a simple balance of incentives.

CR

[Banquo's Ghost]

Of course. :idea2: Because running around the world murdering random people with no due process and deeming them guilty by association/intention/existence just because you can, and need fear no reprisals, is the mark of a civilised nation. How silly of me to have thought otherwise.

[rory_20_uk]

There is no definition of civilised nation. Some uncivilised ones are very soft, some civilised ones are brutal.

A modern civillised nation gets its knickers in a twist worrying about the perceived rights of everybody except those living within its borders, who are to be viewed as criminals in the making and are to be spied on constantly.

We get to the point where UK citizens are shot by mistake whilst running for a train, and pirates are unstoppable.

Employ competent captains (surely commanding a warship and attendant sailors they have to be?) with the ability for autonomous action.

When training a dog you utilise punishments that are understood, which are different to those employed with children. Since citations aren't going to work, 9mm cannon will be required.

~:smoking:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What good would hammering a pirate village do? Short of extermination, you'd only be (at best) smashing one set of pests. The problem would recur and deterrence would be minimal. The basic metric is: a) live in squalor in a failed state with poor resources, or b) kip over on a boat and take that big freighter out there, netting much money from the company who'd rather pay you than keep an expensive ship idling. Smashing the odd pirate nest does not address this.

With the Barbary pirates, there were locals to be suborned, specific acknowledged political leaders involved, a power structure to be influenced....the modern version is more akin to Malaccan corsairs -- no infrastructure of importance to hit.

By all means, hang any caught in the act; defend ships rather than play the extortion game; sink, take or burn any that can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt to be pirating or aiding and abetting same.

Punitive for the sake of punitive is likely to backfire and, as Banquo rightly notes, is morally unjustifiable.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Of course. :idea2: Because running around the world murdering random people with no due process and deeming them guilty by association/intention/existence just because you can, and need fear no reprisals, is the mark of a civilised nation. How silly of me to have thought otherwise.

I talk about sinking ships - putting holes in inanimate objects - and you liken that to running around the world randomly murdering people? That's one of the most imrpessive strawmen I've ever seen.

Obviously you'd want to sink the pirate ships.

CR

[rory_20_uk]

As you rightly point out the current options are squalor or pop on a boat and grab some hard currency. Worst case you get to visit another country for a bit.

If a significant percentage of pirates did not return home the perceptions would change about the risk:benefit.

Hammering villages only indicates that there is almost equal risk on going to sea as staying on land and is counter productive.

~:smoking:

[Pannonian]

As you rightly point out the current options are squalor or pop on a boat and grab some hard currency. Worst case you get to visit another country for a bit.

If a significant percentage of pirates did not return home the perceptions would change about the risk:benefit.

Hammering villages only indicates that there is almost equal risk on going to sea as staying on land and is counter productive.

~:smoking:

Pompey's solution was to resettle them in inland areas elsewhere where there were other ways to make a livelihood.

[Furunculus]

Of course. :idea2: Because running around the world murdering random people with no due process and deeming them guilty by association/intention/existence just because you can, and need fear no reprisals, is the mark of a civilised nation. How silly of me to have thought otherwise.

i like the new edgier BG. *claps*

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the point about giving naval captains leeway is worth mentioning, the invention of the radio destroyed the ability for independant action from hitherto sovereign decision makers, maybe we should give them back their ability to deal with piracy withou recourse to the downing st hotline.

sink pirate ships, and international shipping will soon see the benefits.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Go Dutchies! :netherlands:

I'm really tempted to post this without commentary. As most of you may assume, I'd prefer to solve the Somali pirate crisis by taking out a town or two. Until then, we'll have to rely on the Dutch.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gB7YMEDuCwwY9ncDOtPAkEI4-H2wD9ETSR1O2

I like this one:

"The pirates surrendered the moment they saw the marines,"

Is there any doubt that a decent show of force would deter further attacks?Excellent, and good show.



The somewhat suggestive tone in the article about 'EU red tape that was by-passed, or else none of this action would've been possible', seems a bit overdone. The navies function mostly as national navies, their effectiveness greatly enhanced by the international cooperation that's orchestrated by the EU, all under the leadership of the Brits, under the assumption that the rosbifs know a thing or two about running a navy.
Not to mention, it is the EU that enables a coordination between military and non-military efforts to curb piracy, such as a simultaneous effort to police illegal fishing in the Somali waters. The EU coordinates, finances and facilitates the European effort, with the several navies involved assigned well-coordinated roles, with a clear chain of command.

What the EU ought to do, is to go on strike for a month or two, then let's see what happens as the different navies only get in each other's way, or each nation only takes care of its own ships, and what little cooperation there would be left is get lost in endless red tape because there is no single chain of command.



~~o~~o~~o~~o~~o~~o~~o~~


The NAVFOR website has a slightly different account of events. There had been an attempt at negotiations first, then a rescue opration. Somewhat less Die Hard / Rambo XXIV.

MV Taipan, a German flagged and owned container ship of deadweight of 12612 tonnes, was on route to Mombasa from Djibouti when pirates attacked and took control of the ship.
On the morning of the 5 April, 500 nautical miles east off the Somali coast, a Pirate Attack Group (PAG) attacked and got onboard the MV Taipan. As the pirates boarded the ship the MV Taipan crew followed EU NAVFOR Best Management Practice, retreated to a secure strong room and locked themselves in; they were able to stop all engines and thereby disable the ship, before alerting EU NAVFOR that the ship had been taken. HNLMS Tromp was sent immediately to the scene and located the pirated ship.

Initially HNMLS Tromp attempted to negotiate with the pirates to avoid casualties but when it became clear that the pirates intended resisting, HNMLS Tromp launched a highly professional operation to recapture the ship. Marines from the TROMP have now boarded and retaken control of the ship from the pirates. The crew of 13 (2 German, 3 Russian and 8 Sri Lankan nationals) have been released unharmed. 10 pirates have been taken into custody.


http://www.eunavfor.eu/2010/04/pirated-german-ship-rescue-eu-navfor-hnmls-tromp-retakes-pirated-mv-taipan/
Pirates are caught or repelled on a daily basis (http://www.eunavfor.eu/) by the EU mission. Little red tape there.

[Husar]

Not only what Louis just said but also this quote from the link in the OP...

A spokesman for the EU mission acknowledged the Dutch action avoided a delay and was legitimate.

Don't really see the problem, and as Banquo said, they made sure the crew was safe and not taken hostage.
Of course had it been a rescue attempt by the US I'm sure they'd have carpet bombed the whole ship to make sure none of the bastards got away and then sent a gunship to obliterate the fishermen trying to pick up the dead bodies. :rolleyes:
Oh look, I can make things up about other countries as well.

Seriously, Europe and the US have completely different views on how to handle such things and on who actually has a right to life and a fair trial, it#s somewhat pointless to debate this over and over again. I'm pretty happy with the way we do things here overall, you Americans can be happy with the way you do your gang wars, war on drugs, war on immigrants, war on your front lawn and whatever over there... :juggle2:

[Centurion1]

Don't really see the problem, and as Banquo said, they made sure the crew was safe and not taken hostage.
Of course had it been a rescue attempt by the US I'm sure they'd have carpet bombed the whole ship to make sure none of the bastards got away and then sent a gunship to obliterate the fishermen trying to pick up the dead bodies.
Oh look, I can make things up about other countries as well.

Seriously, Europe and the US have completely different views on how to handle such things and on who actually has a right to life and a fair trial, it#s somewhat pointless to debate this over and over again. I'm pretty happy with the way we do things here overall, you Americans can be happy with the way you do your gang wars, war on drugs, war on immigrants, war on your front lawn and whatever over there...

Actually we send in the navy seals they snipe them down in the dead of night on a rocking ship and then capture one and all the prisoners are kept intact.

We have a far worse gang probably that germany by the way. and not only because of the way we conduct our programs. as well i am not taking advice from a German on how to win a war. :clown:

death penalty is a legal solution to the problem. what you are arguing those against it is if it is ethical or not. if it works its fine by me. they should arm ships so that three pirates wielding rusty ak-47's from the bazaar at home cant capture an oil tanker.

and seriously they talk about ships like disappearing and being sold in illegal markets, in our world of satellites how the hell do you lose a ship.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Without rules of engagement, without democratic control, complete rule of the jungle will apply in the Somali waters.


Armed ships will mean even more Western/Asian thugs will deplete these waters from fishing stocks and use it to dump waste*. I don't want them armed, filled with mercenaries. We are not supposed to be the pirates here.


*Good business, BTW, it's expensive to dispose of waste in the West, especially toxic waste. Companies specialise in buying waste, then dumping it at great hazard to local populations wherever the rule of law has collapsed.

[Centurion1]

make sailors learn firearms. and then have them locked up until they are needed. solutuion there.

[Husar]

Actually we send in the navy seals they snipe them down in the dead of night on a rocking ship and then capture one and all the prisoners are kept intact.
That was after the prisoners jumped into the water and the pirates did not shoot them, thus giving the snipers a free line of fire.


We have a far worse gang probably that germany by the way.
Far worse indeed, and gangs aren't cool.


and not only because of the way we conduct our programs. as well i am not taking advice from a German on how to win a war. :clown:
First off, it's Germans teaching Americans on counter-terrorism tactics but going by the amount of cooperation going on between most western countries it should be fair to say they all have a very high standard and are mostly willing to share it.


death penalty is a legal solution to the problem. what you are arguing those against it is if it is ethical or not. if it works its fine by me.
So if the IRS tortured you to get their taxes that would be fine by me, who cares about ethics if it works, eh?


they should arm ships so that three pirates wielding rusty ak-47's from the bazaar at home cant capture an oil tanker.
Yes, exactly, turn every freighter into a moving fortress, fill the cargo bays with ammo, who needs all that oil anyway? Oh and who cares if some countries won't let them into port anymore? Like i said, who needs that oil anyway? Or just conquer those countries, right? Piece of cake as could be seen in Iraq.


and seriously they talk about ships like disappearing and being sold in illegal markets, in our world of satellites how the hell do you lose a ship.
Because you're probably overestimating our "world of satellites", don't worry, I thought that, too, then thought a bit more about it.

[Fragony]

make sailors learn firearms. and then have them locked up until they are needed. solutuion there.

These pirates are heavily armed, crew don't stand a chance.

[Subotan]

Piracy is only going to come when both a solid state is established in Somalia (That isn't likely to happen any time soon) and economic development comes. Otherwise, no matter how many times you swat them away, the chance to earn a cool million dollars in a place like Somalia will prove too hard to resist.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I talk about sinking ships - putting holes in inanimate objects - and you liken that to running around the world randomly murdering people? That's one of the most imrpessive strawmen I've ever seen.

Obviously you'd want to sink the pirate ships.

CR

If I misinterpreted your recommendations, then I apologise. I'm not entirely sure how you'd sink their fishing boats in harbour without also hitting civilians or fishermen (if that is in fact, what you're recommending) but it's a plan, I suppose.

I thought my original post made it clear that I would support actions such as that of the Dutch marines, where appropriate. I would also support arming vessels as you suggested, but I also suspect most American and Europeans would have a hard time accepting tankers delivering their oil into home ports crewed by assorted unvetted chaps from the Middle East armed to the teeth.

[rory_20_uk]

Without rules of engagement, without democratic control, complete rule of the jungle will apply in the Somali waters.


Armed ships will mean even more Western/Asian thugs will deplete these waters from fishing stocks and use it to dump waste*. I don't want them armed, filled with mercenaries. We are not supposed to be the pirates here.


*Good business, BTW, it's expensive to dispose of waste in the West, especially toxic waste. Companies specialise in buying waste, then dumping it at great hazard to local populations wherever the rule of law has collapsed.

If you want to dump waste illegally, why do it close to pirates when there are vast areas of the globe that are neither patrolled by warships or pirates? Use GPS, go out to a Pacific trench and drop it there. Why risk men with AKs and RPGs?

~:smoking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

If you want to dump waste illegally, why do it close to pirates when there are vast areas of the globe that are neither patrolled by warships or pirates? Use GPS, go out to a Pacific trench and drop it there. Why risk men with AKs and RPGs?

~:smoking:

THE huge waves which battered northern Somalia after the tsunami in December are believed to have stirred up tonnes of nuclear and toxic waste illegally dumped in the war-racked country during the early 1990s. Apart from killing about 300 people and destroying thousands of homes, the waves broke up rusting barrels and other containers and hazardous waste dumped along the long, remote shoreline, a spokesman for the United Nations Environment Programme (Unep) said.
“Initial reports indicate that the tsunami waves broke open containers full of toxic waste and scattered the contents. We are talking about everything from medical waste to chemical waste products,” Nick Nuttal, the Unep spokesman, told The Times.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article418665.ece


Somali pirates have accused European firms of dumping toxic waste off the Somali coast and are demanding an $8m ransom for the return of a Ukranian ship they captured, saying the money will go towards cleaning up the waste. The ransom demand is a means of "reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years", Januna Ali Jama, a spokesman for the pirates, based in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, said.

"The Somali coastline has been destroyed, and we believe this money is nothing compared to the devastation that we have seen on the seas."
The pirates are holding the MV Faina, a Ukrainian ship carrying tanks and military hardware, off Somalia's northern coast.

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy for Somalia confirmed to Al Jazeera the world body has "reliable information" that European and Asian companies are dumping toxic waste, including nuclear waste, off the Somali coastline. "I must stress however, that no government has endorsed this act, and that private companies and individuals acting alone are responsible," he said



Allegations of the dumping of toxic waste, as well as illegal fishing, have circulated since the early 1990s.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.htmlI don't want these international thugs sailing around on armed semi-warships. The last thing we need is even more floating fortresses and mercenaries abusing the failed states of the world. The world needs to be made safe for democracy, not democracy turned into the accomplice of crooks. Gung-ho populism and mistrust of the state in the democracies would abandon governmental oversight, and swap the rule of law for an entire world turned into a Somalia, where armed gangs of thugs, or their more organised variant, large corporations, plunder us all into destitution.

[rory_20_uk]

Sorry ot break it to you, but that's pretty much the case. The Western Thugs merely wear suits and have PR departments. Although some are defined as being connected to states and some are multinational, both act in a very similar way.

I did not mean to imply I was questioning that illegal dumping had taken place in the past. It has always struck me as a rather odd place to do it so close to the coast.

~:smoking:

[al Roumi]

Sorry ot break it to you, but that's pretty much the case. The Western Thugs merely wear suits and have PR departments. Although some are defined as being connected to states and some are multinational, both act in a very similar way.

I did not mean to imply I was questioning that illegal dumping had taken place in the past. It has always struck me as a rather odd place to do it so close to the coast.

~:smoking:

There are probably more loop-holes or gaps in the law and its enforcement to exploit in a failed-state's waters than at open sea, where international laws are enforced. Less chance of anyone stopping you or investigating afterwards.

One of the justifications the Pirates have provided for their actions is that they are defending their coastline against dumping and fishing... as well as making a damn good living, of course. :laugh:

[Boohugh]

Just an observation from reading over this thread, many of you are debating the morality of having armed ships and whether it would be abused by gangs or effective against the pirates but you completely ignore the legal aspects. By arming a ship with the intent of defending itself against aggression, you significantly change how it is viewed under international law, which could then cause a multitude of problems regarding where it would be allowed to make port, how it is insured, etc. Arming all civilian vessels just isn't a practical solution and, if anything, would escalate the situation.

There was also a link earlier regarding a ship that had private security guys on board and fought off some pirates, the key point being they had to be fought off, the pirates weren't deterred straight away. Here (http://www.eunavfor.eu/2010/03/pirate-dies-in-attempted-hijacking-%E2%80%93-eu-navfor-detains-pirate-action-group/) is another case where there were private security contractors who managed to repel the first wave of an attack but didn't deter the pirates trying again, eventually leading to one of the pirates dying. The pirates only seem to surrender when faced with overwhelming force (i.e. a warship), otherwise they just retreat if they can't capture the ship.

Someone also mentioned we should just sink the pirate ships - well that is exactly what we do, if there is evidence they are pirates. As that evidence is generally a supply of weapons, allowing every ships' crew to run around armed just makes identifying the pirates even more difficult, as the pirates would just start claiming they were fishing vessels defending themselves against pirates! Just take a look at the link (http://www.eunavfor.eu/) Louis provided earlier to see much of the good work done by the EU task force.

[Vladimir]

Yep, the legal aspects are the problem, not the solution. It's sad that a ship carrying millions of dollars of cargo is penalized for carrying a security element. I am confused: Are you saying that it's a bad thing one of the pirates died? From your post it seems like international law is the problem and armed resistance is the answer. It's also easy to identify the pirates if they're shooting at you.

[Boohugh]

Yep, the legal aspects are the problem, not the solution. It's sad that a ship carrying millions of dollars of cargo is penalized for carrying a security element. I am confused: Are you saying that it's a bad thing one of the pirates died? From your post it seems like international law is the problem and armed resistance is the answer. It's also easy to identify the pirates if they're shooting at you.

There are 3 basic questions I can gather from your post:

1) Is it bad a pirate died? No. My point was that despite a pirate dying, it hasn't deterred further attacks, both against that same ship (in the case I linked the pirates attacked again) and in general as there are still plenty of pirates out there. Arming civilian ships therefore doesn't seem to act as a deterrent against attack.

2) Is armed resistance the answer and international law the problem? No. In this instance, the ship was able to eventually repel the pirates, however that wouldn't necessarily be the case every time and more armed ships would likely encourage the pirates to employ heavier weaponry, increasing the likelyhood of deaths on both sides. If the pirates did succeed in taking a ship, they'd be more likely to kill hostages in anger/revenge and could still ransom the ship (which, as you pointed out, has the valuable cargo on board). For this reason I wouldn't argue that armed resistance is the answer and is only likely to escalate the situation rather than diffuse it. I see nothing wrong with international law (piracy is illegal under international law afterall), but it could certainly be implemented more robustly, i.e. more military vessels to patrol the area whilst a diplomatic effort is reached (which means building a Somali state).

3) Will pirates always be shooting at you? No. The pirates currently try to dump their weapons overboard if they are about to be caught by a military vessel, they don't shoot at them. If possession of weapons by all vessels is fine, then the only way to identify pirates is by catching them in the act, which is far more difficult to achieve than to catch them with weapons.

From my perspective, I don't see the logic in arming all civilian vessels. It may prevent some hijackings, but it could cause many more deaths and escalate the whole situation which just stores up longer term problems. The only real legal problem is the lack of a suitable place to prosecute the pirates once they have been caught.

[rory_20_uk]

I think one can tell the difference between an oil tanker and crew with guns and a fishing boat with AK-47s 300 miles off the Somalian coast. If not, arrest and seek ID from their bosses.

~:smoking:

[gaelic cowboy]

Arming tankers and cargo ships sounds cool but in practice it will fail there is no shortage of weapons in somalia an all it takes is one group of lads to threaten to fire some anti armour rocket at the ship and everyone on board would have to surrender.

[Centurion1]

these pirates are not good fighters. neither do they have excellent weaponry. rpg's and ak-47's are popular because they are cheap and reliable not because they are the best weaponry.

you issue lisences to carry arms in international waters.

and one anti tank round is not going to blow an oil tanker sky high.

as well the pirates are **** can fighters. They have no training or discipline, just because you grow up in a war torn weaponry and have access to second rate weaponry does not make you a soldier.

i recently read a military theory article that said the afghan security forces are suffering because as it is such a strong tenet of the faith to not shoot fellow muslims they often partake of the spray and pray method even after training. as a result even when fighting non-muslims they are so inured to this type of fighting that it persists. Ironically Al Qaeda does not because they know to fight compared to say afghan security or taliban militias.

[gaelic cowboy]

one anti tank round is not going to blow an oil tanker sky high.

Not every boat is a heavily constructed tanker remember the kidnapped old couple on a boat supposedly in safe water. Also if you had enough RPG's you could hardly miss a Tanker and if it was one of the early single hull types it could be in danger. But the reall worry would be a speed boat loaded with explosives that would sink it and fast



i recently read a military theory article that said the afghan security forces are suffering because as it is such a strong tenet of the faith to not shoot fellow muslims they often partake of the spray and pray method even after training. as a result even when fighting non-muslims they are so inured to this type of fighting that it persists. Ironically Al Qaeda does not because they know to fight compared to say afghan security or taliban militias.

Thats actually not unusual most soldiers actually missed on purpose in WW1 and it has been a problem ever since and was probably one before that too. Hence today we have a greater emphasis on indoctrination of soldiers nowadays into reacting to set conditions in certain ways to increase the chance they will shoot to kill.