Spears

[Klearchos]

Hey guys,

I always supported the "overhand" theory regarding the use of spears, but this guy does have some good points:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOc9C-aPr4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-xtFXThEOc&feature=related

Also a video about the linothorax:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PuaUR3cFps , where he also mentions a reason or two about why the spear might be used underarm (at least in the greek world)

Any thoughts?

[Glewas]

This thread might be of interest to you...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?91689-Question-of-the-Hoplite&p=1674936&highlight=

[Phalanx300]

These two videos will be of the biggest interest for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt5kpN8T8&feature=player_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XLKmWAXyk&feature=related

From reenactment group Spartiatikes Mores, reenacting the Hoplite Phalanx. I say more realistic and practical then most I've seen.

[Klearchos]

This thread might be of interest to you...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?91689-Question-of-the-Hoplite&p=1674936&highlight=

Oh I didn't know that this guy's arguments have already been discussed, thanks for the link.


These two videos will be of the biggest interest for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt5kpN8T8&feature=player_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XLKmWAXyk&feature=related

From reenactment group Spartiatikes Mores, reenacting the Hoplite Phalanx. I say more realistic and practical then most I've seen.

Yes I've seen these vids before, they seem pretty accurate to me as well. Especialy the way the phalanx moves.

[Kikaz]

I still think the guy's arguments hold validity for nonphalanx troops

[cmacq]

There is more to this than just the spear and close order formation fighting. It has to do with mock and real mêlée and weapon reliability. Everything is different when someone is actually trying to kill another, and for several good reasons, many simply do not understand how easy it is to break a weapon.

Closing the shield taps knowningly, deflects down the underhanded spearhead, pinned to ground by the press, and with one quick step the staff snaps, as one sharp overhead thrusts into a gaping hole that was a mouth, causing day to fade as limbs go limp.

One more thing; when one is actually trying to kill someone with a real weapon, made from real period materials and design, as the arm and hand swing forward into the overhand thrust, the tip of the spearhead is travelling much faster than the axis. This is because the tip of the spearhead moves in a shallow ark. Therefore, the great value of the spear is not as much reach as when in mêlée it can potentially achieve similar speed and force ratios produced by the iron sword. However because of its design the spear is much more likely to survive repeated impacts. On the other hand, given that all else is equal, the iron sword of this period, depending on its lenght, is much more likely to shatter. Then again if the sword is too short, the benefits of overhand use are lost, and it simply becomes a underhand thrusting weapon.

Unlike mock battle, the point, of real combat is to kill, as quick as possible; not to play at killing.

[Klearchos]

There is more to this than just the spear and close order formation fighting. It has to do with mock and real mêlée and weapon reliability. Everything is different when someone is actually trying to kill another, and for several good reasons, many simply do not understand how easy it is to break a weapon.

Closing the shield taps knowningly, deflects down the underhanded spearhead, pinned to ground by the press, and with one quick step the staff snaps, as one sharp overhead thrusts into a gaping hole that was a mouth, causing day to fade as limbs go limp.

One more thing; when one is actually trying to kill someone with a real weapon, made from real period materials and design, as the arm and hand swing forward into the overhand thrust, the tip of the spearhead is travelling much faster than the axis. This is because the tip of the spearhead moves in a shallow ark. Therefore, the great value of the spear is not as much reach as when in mêlée it can potentially achieve similar speed and force ratios produced by the iron sword. However because of its design the spear is much more likely to survive repeated impacts. On the other hand, given that all else is equal, the iron sword of this period, depending on its lenght, is much more likely to shatter. Then again if the sword is too short, the benefits of overhand use are lost, and it simply becomes a underhand thrusting weapon.

Unlike mock battle, the point, of real combat is to kill, as quick as possible; not to play at killing.

I see your point...
The thing I cannot understand though, is why would they "fortify" the abdomen-area of the linothorax, if they fought in that fashion. It's a very unlikely spot to be hit by an overhand blow. Also, as the guy in the video states, the armpit-area was totaly unprotected by the linothorax armor, which is strange , given that that part of the body would be exposed while attempting an overhand hit.

The argument that convinced me in this videos is that by holding the spear underarm you can stab both over and below your shield, while by holding it overarm you are limited.

[Macilrille]

I am in a hurry, but you can come and watch us Vikings train, many of us use one-handed spears and many of us use them overhand. It is harder, tires you more, but much more effective, more target area to hit, you can see the point of your weapon and the target- not obscured by shields, and you are less likely to get it broken by someone stepping on it as Joe said.

Try a search for "Moesgaard" on youtube there should be some of us fighting with overhand one-handed spear there. If you see us not doing so in line-fighting it is for safety reasons (headshots). The good one-handed spear fighters can easily move their weapon from high to low and back, depending on what target their opponent tends to leave uncovered.

[oudysseos]

Not that this negates the merits of the discussion necessarily, but this guy Lloyd is a bit of a crank, and there is a lot of cogent criticism to be made of his arguments.

Frankly, I think it's weird that this issue attracts such passionate opinions. It's not like it can really ever be conclusively settled.

[Atilius]

Frankly, I think it's weird that this issue attracts such passionate opinions. It's not like it can really ever be conclusively settled.Well, not without casualties at any rate.

[Ludens]

Frankly, I think it's weird that this issue attracts such passionate opinions. It's not like it can really ever be conclusively settled.

In science, it sometimes seems that the less evidence there is, the more certain people are of their opinions.

[cmacq]

In science, it sometimes seems that the less evidence there is, the more certain people are of their opinions.

indeed, thats why i love the use of 'settled science.'

[Klearchos]

Not that this negates the merits of the discussion necessarily, but this guy Lloyd is a bit of a crank, and there is a lot of cogent criticism to be made of his arguments.

Frankly, I think it's weird that this issue attracts such passionate opinions. It's not like it can really ever be conclusively settled.

Well, of course nothing can be said for certain, but by examining the offensive and defensive equipment, we may come closer to the truth.

[Phalanx300]

Well yeah but then you also have to consider what is practical in an dense shieldwall. Is it underhand or overhand? Looking at speed, safety and power it definately seems overhand.

Also an interesting site: http://tutorials.livinghistory.ie/Home/irish-single-handed-spear-fighting-combat-guide

Notice the picture of Medieval Normans in formation using overhand...

[gamegeek2]

In science, it sometimes seems that the less evidence there is, the more certain people are of their opinions.

Sig'd