Reforms that never happened

[Kurrel]

I don't know whether this has been discussed before and I haven't had much finding a thread covering it. So, if I'm repeating something that's been done to death, I apologise.

In reality, the Romans conquered the majority of Europe and in the process brought with them their advances civil engineering. They changed a great many things through their domination and thus the game is based on the convulsions of their empire.

However, when playing the game it's quite possible to change the course of history; even to the point where the Romans are obliterated. Has there been any thought given to what upheavals another faction might have gone through if it were the dominant force?

As an example, due to their over zealous dedication to Mars, the Romans started a war with my KH faction that they were unable to follow through on. As a result, I'm gradually eating up the Italian peninsula and, as a result of conversations here on the forum, got to wondering what the KH might have done afterwards. If they had held swathes of land, wouldn't they also have gone through military reforms of their own?

While the KH is mostly just out of interest, I think it applies even moreso to the barbarian factions, such as the Casse I have as my secondary campaign. If they had united the gauls into a united army and gone on to conquer a great portion of the civilized world, surely they would have drawn some lessons from these soft southerners? Not least of which would be how to build a decent road!

So, my question is whether there was any thought given, in development, to reforms that didn't happen but might logically have occurred?

[anubis88]

I think your giving to much IF's... It's impossible to predict what would've happened. If the army of KH was stronger then the Roman, they would find no need to change their military. Also i think it's a bad example especially for KH, since the alliance would brake as soon as it would start waging wars of conquest.

Also, the Casse example is also very far fetched. After all, they have an army like the mainland Gauls would've had a few centuries ago.

It's impossible to predict what reforms could happen for factions that didn't have them.
But everything is possible i guess. But you'll have to use your own imagination. It would make no sense to include hypothetical reforms, don't you agree?

[Rahwana]

And when KH conquers all the wolrd, I'm sure we'll still either go to school until we reach 30 years old, or being sent into military academy until we are 30 years old....
And our today's military would be filled with human powered flying machine that fought with spears and bows...

[Watchman]

The Roman "military reforms" were mainly adaptations-out-of-necessity to quite non-military internal issues, though. The shift from the "Polybian" citizen levy to the "Marian" salaried regulars was an ad hoc solution to the problem of the old rural middle class that had provided the manpower backbone (the Roman "hoplite class", if you will) having largely disappeared by the last century BC, and the "Augustinian" thingy was really just a streamlining and reorganisation of the same - as well as getting rid of the private armies of the "Marian" era and placing the remaining Legions under direct Imperial control in the interests of sovereignty.

[Kurrel]

I suppose that modelling even a handful of possibilities would be a headache.

Ah well... if nothing else, I suppose the reasoning can be given that any developments happen after the time period in which the game is set.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

As an example, due to their over zealous dedication to Mars, the Romans started a war with my KH faction that they were unable to follow through on. As a result, I'm gradually eating up the Italian peninsula and, as a result of conversations here on the forum, got to wondering what the KH might have done afterwards. If they had held swathes of land, wouldn't they also have gone through military reforms of their own?

While the KH is mostly just out of interest, I think it applies even moreso to the barbarian factions, such as the Casse I have as my secondary campaign. If they had united the gauls into a united army and gone on to conquer a great portion of the civilized world, surely they would have drawn some lessons from these soft southerners? Not least of which would be how to build a decent road!


Military reforms can happen for political and economic reasons, as described above. Or they can happen for military reasons.

The usual military reasons are:

1. Absorbing a huge source of foreign manpower into your army that isn't culturally suited to fighting the same way your own people do. As with Alexander's Macedonia (later Seleucid empire) conquering the Persian empire and having to employ eastern troops, some of whom the Greeks have to let fight according to their own traditions and skills - light missile cavalry and archers instead of heavy infantry, for example.

2. Getting your butt severely kicked in a very large and important battle by an opponent fighting in an unfamiliar way that your current military methods are not suited to countering. E.g. Rome having to abandon the Greek-style hoplite phalanx after being thoroughly trounced by the Gauls at the Battle of Allia (resulting in the sack of Rome, which really did become 'Barbaropolis' for a while!) This resulted in the Camillan reforms, creation of new heavy infantry, Hastati and Principes, equipped more like Gauls with oval shield instead of round Greek aspis, and javelins for throwing before the hand to hand fighting begins. Principes equipped with Gallic-style chainmail armour. Helmet based on Gallic design.

If the KH ended up dominating most of Europe using their existing military system, why would they need a military reform? However, if they got their butts kicked in a critical battle by Gallic or Germanic barbarians, they might start thinking about modifying their system beyond simply recruiting local barbarians into their own armies (Galatians, for example.) Mind you, the KH actually have a very wide variety of units at their disposal anyway, including updated hoplites (they aren't stuck with the old classical ones) and they should be able to tailor their army to meet almost any threat. Only Scythian and Pahlavan horse archers pose a serious problem, as they did for Rome. To which the KH can only recruit local horse archers or hire mercenaries.

[Zarax]

Well, the hellenistic factions did have a "reform" just around the start of our timeframe.
The galatian "invasion" made chain mail and thureoi much more popular around the hellenistic world, not to mention that their fighting style made them very popular mercenaries among the diadochii.

In reality most "reforms" were a relatively gradual process, with one general here trying a new weapon, a general there learning some tricks from foreign enemies and finally a 3rd one integrating and "rationalizing" the whole process, often getting the credit for it.