Holiday is a basic human right

[Strike For The South]

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2010/04/19/33525/eu-plans-subsidised-holidays-for-the-less-well-off.html

I don't really know how to articulate myslef other than; "Well that's stupid"

I mean in what realm is this a good use of taxpayer dollars.

[Megas Methuselah]

Oh God, they're not gonna be comin here, are they?

[gaelic cowboy]

This Antonio Tajani sounds as mad as a bag of spiders if you ask me I guess he is Italian so ole Silvio prob thinks it's a great idea

[PanzerJaeger]

Every socialist scheme starts with the declaration of a new human right.

[drone]

Oh God, they're not gonna be comin here, are they?

I imagine intra-EU trips will be subsidized, paying for people to spend their meager saving outside the EU zone would be politically unacceptable (well, moreso anyway...). Chavs to Majorca! :laugh4:

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'm not sure what he is talking about. I doubt it will ever work like that: here's money go and enjoy it. I expect it is more of the local tourist bureau subsidizing tour operators, or charities on a day out and similar.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I hear there's pretty cheap flights to Iceland...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Every socialist scheme starts with the declaration of a new human right.It is a (somewhat) hardright scheme, in the Italian corporatist tradition. :deal:

Let's call it International-Socialism. :eyebrows:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh God, they're not gonna be comin here, are they?Partay at Megasss!!!!

Last Euro there must dress in a burqa!

[Lemur]

Every socialist scheme starts with the declaration of a new human right.
By this rather loose formulation, the United States was formed as a socialist scheme. And so was the civil rights movement. And the reformation and the entire protestant movement.

[PanzerJaeger]

By this rather loose formulation, the United States was formed as a socialist scheme. And so was the civil rights movement. And the reformation and the entire protestant movement.

That is certainly an interesting interpretation of history.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The proposal sounds pretty ludicrous. I'd say the site published it that way to get ratings, but the quotes seem pretty definitive :shrug:


That is certainly an interesting interpretation of history.

Nah, just a logic mix up. Every Q starts with P doesn't imply that every P leads to Q etc.

[Lemur]

Nah, just a logic mix up. Every Q starts with P doesn't imply that every P leads to Q etc.
And yet if P does not necessarily lead to Q, it calls into question the value of the original observation, does it not? Where's the benefit of observing that "Every serial killer at some time ate bananas?" As you so correctly point out, eating bananas does not lead to serial killing. So the value of the observation is, at the very least, questionable.

-edit-

That said, the article linked in the OP is insane. Had to check twice to make sure it wasn't dated April 1.

[Gregoshi]

Watch your P's and Q's guys.

[Beskar]

The plan is only active in Europe by the looks of it, and it looks more like a Social Enginneering project than an actual civil right.

[a completely inoffensive name]

By this rather loose formulation, the United States was formed as a socialist scheme. And so was the civil rights movement. And the reformation and the entire protestant movement.

Why did I ever dislike you Lemur?

[Lemur]

Why did I ever dislike you Lemur?
Oh, I'm sure I've given plenty of offense in my time. I never hold it against anyone if they decide to dislike me for a while.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Oh, I'm sure I've given plenty of offense in my time. I never hold it against anyone if they decide to dislike me for a while.

2.5 years of reading your posts in the backroom have made me slowly realize if I am going to have a grudge against someone on the org its not going to be one of the most reasonable politically.

Back on topic, I don't understood why when people through their governments express a desire for more that it needs to be justified by being a "basic, human right". I don't see a problem with a society justifying defending their desire to enjoy their life without falling behind in the capitalist rat race by declaring the holidays an "essential, EU right" or for my countrymen simply an "American right". If we are to apply the (imo false ideology) of nationalism, why don't we apply it to demand for more of ourselves instead of just applying it to demand more of other countries through force.

[Ironside]

That said, the article linked in the OP is insane. Had to check twice to make sure it wasn't dated April 1.

It is insane and there's signs that it's something suspicious about it. Main news aren't picking up on it for example. Then there's also that it is a suggestion, that the cost is potentially several hundreds of million pounds, and that is 30% of the total cost, since that's the cost the EU is to handle.

Should it actuslly be serious, we can suspect that Mr. Tajani has a bit too much connections with the travel industry.

[CountArach]

An interesting idea for blending Europe into a broader cross-cultural society for sure.

Oh and as for proclaiming this a new right, that's flat out not true. The Declaration of Human Rights Article 24 (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a24) already states:

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
So debate the idea all you like, just don't claim it is a new thing - this has been around since the 40s.

[a completely inoffensive name]

An interesting idea for blending Europe into a broader cross-cultural society for sure.

Oh and as for proclaiming this a new right, that's flat out not true. The Declaration of Human Rights Article 24 (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a24) already states:

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
So debate the idea all you like, just don't claim it is a new thing - this has been around since the 40s.

The practical aspect of my political ideology tells me that the Declaration of Human Rights has been invalid to the US since the 1980s and the rise of neoconservatives who need to do everything and anything to stop terrorists.

EDIT: By that, I mean that the American public needs to stand up for that right and declare it all over again because no one cares what a piece of paper written by gasp "socialist Europeans" says anymore.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh and as for proclaiming this a new right, that's flat out not true. The Declaration of Human Rights Article 24 (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a24) already states:

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
So debate the idea all you like, just don't claim it is a new thing - this has been around since the 40s.

Thank you for the correction. Ridiculous, but apparently not a new idea. :bow:

[Beskar]

Actually, there is a difference in the write-up, it is the fundamental right to be able to go aboard on holiday. For example, the debt ridden Scottish can go to debt-ridden Greece, and vice-versus!

[Louis VI the Fat]

In (most of? all of?) Europe, allowances for travel are already factored in in both social benefits and wages. :book:


What is new, is that industry is trying to tap into this, and combine it with European efforts to internationalise the markets. This idea originated in the travel industry, and its political proponents are rightwing and Christian-democrat politicians, what with their tradition of close cooperation between industry and politics..


Not that the idea is bad simply for being a rightwing money making racket, mind. If people receive allowances for holidays, one might as well make it an international holiday. Let the German lower waged worker holiday in Italy, and the Italian pensioner in Germany.

The big attraction is also the drawback of the proposal: it allows for central interference in the market.

Currently, the hotels and the rest of the travel infrastructure on the Spanish coast are mostly unused eight months out of twelve. One can fill it with pensioners and students. This should lower prices during the high season, provide more stable employment, and benefit social inclusion. I can think of a thousand other benefits, and a thousand of the usual drawbacks that come with governemt intervention.



~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


I suppose billions of government subsidies to aid the failing banking and finance industry, amounting to handouts to millionaire bankers, are fine, whereas millions of governement subsidies to aid the hurting travel and tourism industry, which amounts to handouts to the lower wage brackets, are an insanity.

[Ironside]

I think I could clear up on my opinion. The insanity would lie in the "right" part of having a international holiday, should it be outside a rethorical statement, since you're always allowed to use those rights (outside some rare exceptions). Having rights to paid holidays are another matter, which rightfully is legislated.

Louis, the hotels are already compensating with lower prices the way you decribe. As for the last statement, remember that handouts here usually comes with ownership and also I'm not particulary fond of what's ends up as state support of tourism. It's simply not free market, so it should then more of less be followed with a general shift from free market economics. Because if the state needs to pay the market to support it and keeping people employed, it's blatantly obvious that the market is failing.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think I could clear up on my opinion. The insanity would lie in the "right" part of having a international holiday, should it be outside a rethorical statement, since you're always allowed to use those rights (outside some rare exceptions). Having rights to paid holidays are another matter, which rightfully is legislated.

Louis, the hotels are already compensating with lower prices the way you decribe. As for the last statement, remember that handouts here usually comes with ownership and also I'm not particulary fond of what's ends up as state support of tourism. It's simply not free market, so it should then more of less be followed with a general shift from free market economics. Because if the state needs to pay the market to support it and keeping people employed, it's blatantly obvious that the market is failing.Oh, you know how these things work. When everybody claims X, I'll argue Y. More's the fun. If the Eurocommies had gotten to this thread first, then I'd probably by now had been arguing the insanity of government distortion of the market. :wink2:


Having said that though, I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea. I would have to read up about details of it (if they exist already?), and the consequences, which I'm sure I don't all understand yet.

As it is, holidays are part of wages, infrastructure for tourism is subsidised by the EU through structural funds for underdeveloped areas (Scottish Highlands, Spain's inetrior, Hungary's lakes etc), and markets are being internationalised by the EU. As such, it is not an enormous leap to further develop these policies into a more encompassing one.
Also, the tourism industry is very sensitive to economic cycles, and very seasonal. It could do with stabilisation.
Lastly, I'm not averse to the social aspects of the proposal.



The Spanish taxpayer subsidises holidays for EU citizens of other states:

Spain Offers Holidays Subsidised to European Senior Tourists out of Season

The Spanish government wants Europeans to rediscover the huge potential of Spanish tourist destinations during the winter season. It has therefore created the “EUROPE SENIOR TOURISM” programme, which this first year will market subsidised Spanish holidays that include transport, full-board accommodation in 4-star hotels, trips and travel insurance to Andalusia and the Balearic Islands.
European citizens from Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, France, Italy, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Austria, Portugal, Slovenia, Rumania and Ireland are already reaping the benefits of this programme.
To participate in this programme, you must be over 55 years and a European Union citizen. Just go to www.europeseniortourism.eu or visit an authorised distributor of the Europe Senior Tourism programme, where you will be able to access the range of available destinations and accommodation.
In addition, one person under 55 years can accompany the senior tourist on the same holiday and for the same price.
We are therefore talking about holidays at low prices, in a country that is known worldwide for its sunny climate, the quality of its services, its culture and friendly inhabitants.
The Spanish government wants Europeans to rediscover the huge potential of Spanish tourist destinations during the winter season. It has therefore created the “EUROPE SENIOR TOURISM (http://www.europeseniortourism.eu/)” programme, which this first year will market subsidised Spanish holidays that include transport, full-board accommodation in 4-star hotels, trips and travel insurance to Andalusia and the Balearic Islands.


European citizens from Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, France, Italy, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Austria, Portugal, Slovenia, Rumania and Ireland are already reaping the benefits of this program.
To participate in this program, you must be over 55 years and a European Union citizen. Just go to www.europeseniortourism.eu (http://www.europeseniortourism.eu/) or visit an authorised distributor of the Europe Senior Tourism programme, where you will be able to access the range of available destinations and accommodation. In addition, one person under 55 years can accompany the senior tourist on the same holiday and for the same price.
http://www.stylewise.tv/spain-offers-subsidised-holidays-to-senior-citizens/

[Sasaki Kojiro]

An interesting idea for blending Europe into a broader cross-cultural society for sure.

Oh and as for proclaiming this a new right, that's flat out not true. The Declaration of Human Rights Article 24 (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a24) already states:

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
So debate the idea all you like, just don't claim it is a new thing - this has been around since the 40s.

But this about people who are already working right? And doesn't say anything about sending "pensioners, young people aged 18 to 25, disabled people and families facing “difficult social, financial or personal circumstances” on trips, because holiday can just mean "time off work".

[Rhyfelwyr]

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Surely holiday in that sense means a set period of time off work (as in two weeks for Easter Holidays), as opposed to a travel break abroad?

[Louis VI the Fat]

'The right to rest and leisure'

This leisure needs to be put into practicable law. What was considered appropriate leisure fifty years ago is not appropriate by current standards. A foreign holiday was a luxury in 1950, reserved for only the very rich. Nowadays, it is so common amongst the working class, that to be deprived of it amounts to social exclusion.

Electricity, a telephone, access to bathing facilities at one point were considered luxuries too, but are now a basic right.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Wow, that's stupid.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

'The right to rest and leisure'

This leisure needs to be put into practicable law. What was considered appropriate leisure fifty years ago is not appropriate by current standards. A foreign holiday was a luxury in 1950, reserved for only the very rich. Nowadays, it is so common amongst the working class, that to be deprived of it amounts to social exclusion.

Electricity, a telephone, access to bathing facilities at one point were considered luxuries too, but are now a basic right.

They aren't though. You have the right to have access to electricity. But if you don't pay your bill you don't get none.

I think we should value rest and leisure much more highly than we do though. 4 day workweek! :beam:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think we should value rest and leisure much more highly than we do though. 4 day workweek! :beam:One of my pet peeves. Why has so little of economic progress been converted into buying time for people?

Surely one of the greatest improvements in quality of life for the working classes since 1850 has been to reduce working hours and extend time off from work in weekends and vacations? Why did this stop?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Wow, that's stupid.

CRWelcome to Europe, where it's considered progress that a worker no longer sweats in a factory for sixteen hours a day, six days a week, no holidays, from age five until death.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

One of my pet peeves. Why has so little of economic progress been converted into buying time for people?

Surely one of the greatest improvements in quality of life for the working classes since 1850 has been to reduce working hours and extend time off from work in weekends and vacations? Why did this stop?

I don't know, but it seems people consistently underestimate the value of vacation time. One of our blind spots, either innate or cultural, I guess.


Welcome to Europe, where it's considered progress that a worker no longer sweats in a factory for sixteen hours a day, six days a week, no holidays, from age five until death.

:laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

'The right to rest and leisure'

This leisure needs to be put into practicable law. What was considered appropriate leisure fifty years ago is not appropriate by current standards. A foreign holiday was a luxury in 1950, reserved for only the very rich. Nowadays, it is so common amongst the working class, that to be deprived of it amounts to social exclusion.

Electricity, a telephone, access to bathing facilities at one point were considered luxuries too, but are now a basic right.

So who's depriving those people?

CR

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well the way the article describe it, is -as you said- certainly `stupid'. Doesn't mean much in itself, though. For instance this could be about a more centralised version of various local tourism subsidies converted into an EU-wide programme; made to look more important than it is with the usual ill-conceived political rhetoric. Or it could be nothing but some tourism journalist getting worked up over nothing.

[Andres]

What they're doing in the article is pretty silly.

But yeah, holiday is a basic human right. And I wholeheartedly agree with Louis. People should get more days off. Sasaki's 4 day work week is a good idea. Laziness is underrated nowadays.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

An interesting idea for blending Europe into a broader cross-cultural society for sure.

Oh and as for proclaiming this a new right, that's flat out not true. The Declaration of Human Rights Article 24 (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a24) already states:

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
So debate the idea all you like, just don't claim it is a new thing - this has been around since the 40s.

40's if you mean 3040s BCE or thereabouts. Check Exodus 20:10. Nothing about pay mentioned one way or another though. That's probably more recent.


Down-time/rest is a human NEED. Whether or not it can be construed as a right is a matter of perspective. Deny it completely and for long enough, however, and things start to get sloppy.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So who's depriving those people?

CR

Companies who want workers to work more days and/or hours and lobby to prevent such legislation for vacation from passing? Governments who dont raise the minimum wage since 1997, killing the purchasing power of the poor through inflation over decades causing them to work more hours to keep the the bare minimum standard of living above poverty?