SB 1070 Or The Arizona Immigration Bill

[Strike For The South]

Ok Gentleman what's the vedict?

Once again Arizona misses the point and decides to attack the people rather than the institutions.



It requires police officers, “when practicable,” to detain people they reasonably suspect are in the country without authorization and to verify their status with federal officials, unless doing so would hinder an investigation or emergency medical treatment.

It also makes it a state crime — a misdemeanor — to not carry immigration papers. In addition, it allows people to sue local government or agencies if they believe federal or state immigration law is not being enforced.



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html


How will that be enforced? I DONT HAVE THESE PAPERS WHERE DO I GET THESE PAPERS.

Right now I'm leaning toward draconian law sprung by a nice new surge of nativism but Im willing to have my mind changed/

[Lemur]

Does this mean everybody's got to start carrying around their birth certificates?

[Strike For The South]

Does this mean everybody's got to start carrying around their birth certificates?

IDK, My parents nor my grandparents have these things.....Does this mean I have to go back to Europe? :sad:

[drone]

While police demands of documents are common on subways, highways and in public places in some countries, including France, Arizona is the first state to demand that immigrants meet federal requirements to carry identity documents legitimizing their presence on American soil.
I think Arizona is just tired of the Feds not enforcing the law. Much of the bill echoes current federal legislation, except Arizona cannot deport illegals. So they will hand them over to the INS when they find them, and from the sounds of it, INS is not going to accept them. Carrying papers is already required.

[Centurion1]

i hate illegal immigration such a sticky topic. im not sure how you condone something with ILLEGAL in its name, dont know if this is the way to go about it though.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It came about because the Feds are hardly doing anything.

However, having police question people they suspect may be immigrants is a surefire way for discrimination and civil rights abuse.

CR

[Subotan]

IDK, My parents nor my grandparents have these things.....Does this mean I have to go back to Europe? :sad:
Does this mean if I ever visit Phoenix, that I'll get deported to Mexico? :anxious:

[drone]

Does this mean if I ever visit Phoenix, that I'll get deported to Mexico? :anxious:

Depends on your accent. ~;) No, the State of Arizona cannot deport anyone.

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yW_sIKBfIk) is currently the best documentary on how the Feds deal with illegals.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

IDK, My parents nor my grandparents have these things.....Does this mean I have to go back to Europe? :sad:

Well, you could carry your passport instead.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well, you could carry your passport instead.

Not to fear. Impending non-amnesty amnesty legislation at the federal level will take care of this.

[Louis VI the Fat]

One Arizona congressman called for businesses to boycott his own state, and a Catholic cardinal said the state may be encouraging "German Nazi and Russian Communist techniques" as pushback against Arizona's proposed crackdown on illegal immigrants went into high gear Tuesday.How very irresponsible. They are testing the boundaries of what is still democratic. Shameless and dangerous. Sheer sedition. Treason.

:beam:

[PanzerJaeger]

Good for Arizona. Too bad they can't dump them back over the border where they belong. How far we've sunk when both political parties are in paralysis out of fear of the Mexicans.... :no:

These people have no real understanding of how a civil society functions and it shows back home. Mexico can proudly boast of being the only non-first world nation in North America. They’ll become nothing more than Democratic block voters if they are given amnesty, and we already have one minority that specializes in that. :rolleyes:

[CountArach]

Ver are ze papers?

[Husar]

They’ll become nothing more than Democratic block voters if they are given amnesty, and we already have one minority that specializes in that. :rolleyes:

Yes, it's the government's duty to prevent the influx of the French and other minority democratic block voters.

And strike, I've got a rusty, old boat nice sofa you can sleep on when they send you back here. :sweatdrop:

[Strike For The South]

Good for Arizona. Too bad they can't dump them back over the border where they belong. How far we've sunk when both political parties are in paralysis out of fear of the Mexicans.... :no:

These people have no real understanding of how a civil society functions and it shows back home. Mexico can proudly boast of being the only non-first world nation in North America. They’ll become nothing more than Democratic block voters if they are given amnesty, and we already have one minority that specializes in that. :rolleyes:

Fear of the Mexicans? No it's more like taking a sledgehammer to a broken arm.

We need to attack the buisness that hire illegals and stop giving them social services that they don't pay into. Frankly I really don't care if they are here when they can't get a job and can't suck of the system. I guran got dang tee you they will leave in droves.

How this law will not alienate Arizonas sizeable latino pop is beyond me. ESP when it lends itself so eaisly to discrimination. Either check everyones papers or no ones papers



Well, you could carry your passport instead.

I'm an American, I don't have one.

The only country worth visiting was Mexico and up until a little while ago you didn't need a passport for that.

Now I'm stuck paying market price for tequlia, perscription drugs, and donkey shows.

[The Stranger]

sounds alot like the ID-duty in europe where you must carry at all times your ID papers.

[Lemur]

I'm gonna go ahead and provoke a Godwin by noting that it's a lot of fun to yell, "SHOW US YOUR PAPERS!" in a German accent. The louder you yell it, the more fun you're having.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Für Husar!


This German Nazi is America's future!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9gW45eVdBI

[Husar]

I'm gonna go ahead and provoke a Godwin by noting that it's a lot of fun to yell, "SHOW US YOUR PAPERS!" in a German accent. The louder you yell it, the more fun you're having.

See Strike's signature.

And thanks Louis! :laugh4:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

1. Remove the jobs from the market -- no new laws required, just enforce existing. Needs people power.

2. Close the traffic in illegals across our border with Mexico -- needs new materials and people power.

3. De-criminalize drugs and tax it like any other import.

4. Inform Mexico that they are responsible for their citizens and their citizens general welfare. Farming out the responsibility and cost to us so as to obviate the need for Mexico to provide whatever support is deemed appropriate for their own citizens out of their own budget is no longer acceptable. If they want the rights and benefits of citizens of the USA, then they should petition for statehood (by regions).

5. Increase the number of legal immigrants.

6. Create a useful system for temporary work visas that doesn't require papal intercession to function quickly.


Arizona's law, however well intended, is likely to be too flawed in execution not to be struck down.

We already carry ID on us almost constantly.

[Xiahou]

I think Arizona is just tired of the Feds not enforcing the law. Much of the bill echoes current federal legislation, except Arizona cannot deport illegals. So they will hand them over to the INS when they find them, and from the sounds of it, INS is not going to accept them. Carrying papers is already required.I think that's worth reiterating.
Carrying papers is already required.
As drone points out, much of this is already federal law- it's just mandating that state law enforcement enforces the law since the federal government seems unwilling or unable to do so.

As it was presented, there were some ominous sounding provisions in the bill- but once you look past the overheated rhetoric, it doesn't really seem to bad. I say let it play out.

[Don Corleone]

Nothing in the bill warrants the "Nazi" "eugenic" and other vitrolic adjectives I've heard used here. But for the record, I agree with Strike: Cure the ill, not the symptom.

I'm in a new phase of political analysis these days. I shed my idealism very late in life (I'll be 40 sometime soon, and I've come to this unveiling in the past year). I finally accepted that all elected officials are salesman, and they frequently change product lines. This whole debate is about 1) Jon Kyl driving wedge issues in Arizona and 2) Harry Reid needs to get reelected. You have two guys vying for an office, and not necessarily the same one, you have "an issue". That's it. No principles, no real ideology. Just simple opportunism and reelection politics.

Politics in America today is best described by the Bard:

........ it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

[Kadagar_AV]

[About passports]

I'm an American, I don't have one.

The only country worth visiting was Mexico and up until a little while ago you didn't need a passport for that.

Now I'm stuck paying market price for tequlia, perscription drugs, and donkey shows.


Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.


About the Arizona immigration bill... I find it logical.

I think we have the same rule in Sweden. Of course, if you are white you wont be asked by the police to show your papers. And if you speak an OK swedish you wont either.

Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

I do not quite understand the backlash... You think the police will randomly hold up some white mother of 3, ask for her papers, and if she cant show them they will send her to mexico? Or what?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Hehehe, I just received this email from a friend:
You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal".

Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California .

Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.

Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

Ready? Now pay attention...

Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.

Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.

Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.

Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.

Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.

Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

Do you get it, now?

If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens...





You are part of the problem!

It's way PAST time to take a stand for America and Americans!
What are you waiting for? Pass it on.





Illegal immigrants need to get in line and go through the same process as the legal ones. Seamus has some good ideas on stemming the tide, but unfortunately re-election politics gets in the way. Welcome back Don! I feel your cynicism.

[rory_20_uk]

I don't understand why screening and risk stratification are such taboo words. Medics do it all the time, as do vast number of other industries. We do it as it aids efficiency.

No one likes crime, but better the police randomly ask people if they did it than employ any methods that will target the greatest amount of crime with the least amount of resources in both time and money.

~:smoking:

[Don Corleone]

S/Jon Kyl/J.D. Hayworth. Sorry for the confusion.

[Don Corleone]

Why is the profiling a big deal? Because you're impeding the registration process of the new wing of the Democratic party. Seriously. There's no overriding principle here... illegal immigrants want the right to keep on breaking the law, and Democrats want them to be able to do so they can rack up their votes. It's that simple.

@Lemur thanks man, but I've been lurking. Just finished my masters finally. :-) And when did you get to be such a racist? :-p

[Kadagar_AV]

I am a moderator who just got an email, and I will copy it here without any sources what so ever

*golf clap*

Would you mind backing it up with some, say, evidence? Statistics? Articles?

Whatever that isnt a ctrl-c of a mass-sent spam mail?

Don't get me wrong, I am very much against immigration... However, that also means I am against STUPID arguments/people/proof not backed up by evidence against immigration, as it hurts my cause.

An extra golden star as it was a mod who posted the ****.

[PanzerJaeger]

Fear of the Mexicans? No it's more like taking a sledgehammer to a broken arm.

The Democrats are drooling over the prospect of amnesty and millions of new little Democratos. They would never do anything to jeopardize that, regardless of the damage it does to the country.

The Republicans understand that Hispanics are the fastest growing minority in the nation, and if they were to vote in block for the Democrats along with other minorities it would force the GOP into permanent minority status and regional power. They know amnesty is coming, so they think they have to fight for the Mexicans while placating their anti-immigration base. That equates to some minor rhetoric against immigration with no real action - witness the presidency of George W. Bush.

What the Republicans don't realize is that they've already lost the Mexicans, so they might as well take a stand for what's right and let the cards fall where they may. Maybe they can pick up more white voters as the Democrats increasingly pander to the minorities. As we've seen, our lovely leader doesn't have any qualms about injecting race into the political dialogue and pitting one ethnic group against another. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0410/Obama_seeks_to_reconnectyoung_people_AfricanAmerins_Latinos_and_women_for_2010.html?showall)



The Democratic National Committee this morning released this clip of the president rallying the troops, if rather coolly, for 2010. Obama's express goal: "reconnecting" with the voters who voted for the first time in 2008, but who may not plan to vote in the lower-profile Congressional elections this year.

Obama speaks with unusual demographic frankness about his coalition in his appeal to "young people, African-Americans, Latinos, and women who powered our victory in 2008 [to] stand together once again."


So yes, everyone fears the Mexicans. They will be the game-changers in future elections.


*golf clap*

Would you mind backing it up with some, say, evidence? Statistics? Articles?

Whatever that isnt a ctrl-c of a mass-sent spam mail?

Don't get me wrong, I am very much against immigration... However, that also means I am against STUPID arguments/people/proof not backed up by evidence against immigration, as it hurts my cause.

An extra golden star as it was a mod who posted the ****.

He wasn't writing a thesis, and I don't think he posted it as solid evidence of anything. It's just a hypothetical situation that highlights some of the inequalities in our system.

[Slyspy]

Why is the profiling a big deal? Because you're impeding the registration process of the new wing of the Democratic party. Seriously. There's no overriding principle here... illegal immigrants want the right to keep on breaking the law, and Democrats want them to be able to do so they can rack up their votes. It's that simple.

@Lemur thanks man, but I've been lurking. Just finished my masters finally. :-) And when did you get to be such a racist? :-p

So its not because there are two types of hispanics, the legal and the illegal and that random fishing for the latter will result in harassment of the former?

[CountArach]

*golf clap*

Would you mind backing it up with some, say, evidence? Statistics? Articles?

Whatever that isnt a ctrl-c of a mass-sent spam mail?

Don't get me wrong, I am very much against immigration... However, that also means I am against STUPID arguments/people/proof not backed up by evidence against immigration, as it hurts my cause.

An extra golden star as it was a mod who posted the ****.
Settle down mate, the laughing at the start of the post clearly shows he didn't take it as a serious analysis. Further, Mods aren't held to any different standards as far as sourcing goes.

[Kadagar_AV]

said stuff.

I know he wasnt writing a thesis. But still one would have hoped that spam-mail didnt work as discussion-material here. Or?

Following your logic, we would all have enhanced penises by now.

So why dont we get back to.... You know... Facts?

I have come to learn that facts is of no value in religious discussions, but can we PLEASE at least try to adhere to it when we talk about politics?

EDIT: This was in reply to the post before you edited it. Was a whole other content then.

And yes, I am very much aware that mods have no specific standards.

[CountArach]

Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.
[...]
Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

So why dont we get back to.... You know... Facts?
Sources please.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sources please.

Not the best source (http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2003/01/31/how_many_america.php) in the world, but has a plentiful of links. Could also bother to link to very many more sites with pure numbers, but hey, from that site you should get the hang of it.

Did you also want a source of me claiming that the new law was just a tool to make it easier for police to do their job? Or why did you quote that part? What do you argue against here?














EDIT: NO, you can NOT count military personel off to make some sort of war (against drugs, or terrorism, or placebo), and you can NOT count pilots manning unmaned vechicles... Maybe in the US, but in Europe we don't really count that as "cultural exchance".

[CountArach]

Not the best source (http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2003/01/31/how_many_america.php) in the world, but has a plentiful of links. Could also bother to link to very many more sites with pure numbers, but hey, from that site you should get the hang of it.
Thank you :bow:

Did you also want a source of me claiming that the new law was just a tool to make it easier for police to do their job? Or why did you quote that part? What do you argue against here?
That was a misreading of your post. I'm not arguing anything here, just pointing out the inherent problem with asking for sources from someone whilst making unsourced statements yourself.

[Lemur]

@Lemur thanks man, but I've been lurking. Just finished my masters finally. :-) And when did you get to be such a racist? :-p
Congrats on the Masters, good sir! Are you finally competent to explain volts, watts and ohms to me? As for my prejudice, it's a well-established fact that I believe Samoans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoa) are the master race.

Stumbled over another perspective (http://www.gregpalast.com/behind-the-arizona-immigration-lawgop-game-to-swipe-the-november-election/) on this Arizona/latino/show us your papers brouhaha. From what little I've been reading, it sure doesn't sound like there are any good guys in this situation.


What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of legal Hispanics, US citizens all, who are daring to vote -- and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one. Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast. [...]

Brewer, then Secretary of State, had organized a racially loaded purge of the voter rolls that would have made Katherine Harris blush. Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no less than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanics, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.

That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you're not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: after all, they give their names and addresses.

So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one.

The dude's rhetoric is a little over-the-top, but his hypothesis is solid.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Democrats and Catholics (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/59466) support Mexican immigration, both for obvious reasons of demographic gain.

Both also have commendable respect for the human dignity of the immigrant. 'Profiteering criminals' is not the whole story. Many illegals live in deprived circumstance. There is a regimen of racial profiling, paramilitary abuse of force by out-of-control Border Patrol agents, the denial of due process, limited access to legal protection, destruction of families through deportations. They suffer exploitation and abuse, simply for seeking a better life.

I am vehemently opposed to amnesties, nor particularly fond of runaway mass immigration, least of all for reasons of political paralysis and outright social engineering. Nevertheless, one is dealing with people. Dignity and equality must be always maintained, if some fraternity can be thrown in that would be great too. I must grudgingly admit it is the left and the Catholics who provide it. A priest (http://spectator.org/archives/2010/01/13/the-catholic-case-for-immigrat) does not ask for a green card before giving food or shelter to someone in need.

Racial profiling is demeaning, not so much for the illegal as for the legal immigrant. Raids on workplaces, controls of papers, police stops - these thing make me uncomfortable, they are not a sign of a civilised state, they perpetuate a state of fear for illegals, increasing their defenselessness against exploitation and abuse.

Gah! Difficult subject.




the laughing at the start of the post clearly shows he didn't take it as a serious analysis. Can you back this statement up with a serious source, or do you only have one gaming site forum post as proof there was laughing?

[rory_20_uk]

"Civilised" is merely defined by the times. Generally the yardstick that is used is the dominant society at the moment. Victorian England would not be counted as civilised by many by the standards we have today. The feeling might well be mutual.
A Priest generally has different priorities to a nation state.

The risks are currently seen to be lesser than the rewards. Only when the trip is not seen as profitable will the flow decrease.

~:smoking:

[Subotan]

DERKA DERP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls&NR=1

[PanzerJaeger]

What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of legal Hispanics, US citizens all, who are daring to vote -- and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one. Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast. [...]

Yep. The Republicans are already done in New Mexico and Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado will be next. The latter two are already swinging towards the Dems. Even more disheartening - if you're of right-wing leanings - is that Texas could be in jeopardy sooner rather than later, and even the solid South.

I predicted in a thread some time back that this new influx of minority votes would permanently damage the Republicans. The only hope is to capture more of the white vote, maybe by permanently peeling off the Reagan Democrats.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Perhaps the democrats, if they have a big majority, will move further to the left and push some of the moderates to the republicans.

[Megas Methuselah]

Perhaps the democrats, if they have a big majority, will move further to the left and push some of the moderates to the republicans.

I don't know, but I think Strike made this thread as a treat for me; I've been crackin up the whole time. :laugh4:

[Strike For The South]

Would be fun if it wasnt so true. The % of americans having visited another country is... Diminutive to say the least.


About the Arizona immigration bill... I find it logical.

I think we have the same rule in Sweden. Of course, if you are white you wont be asked by the police to show your papers. And if you speak an OK swedish you wont either.

Basicly, this is just a tool to make it easier for the police to catch the REAL illegal immigrants... If legal immigrants have to have some paper with them, who cares? They choose to immigrate! If they dont like it, go back.

I do not quite understand the backlash... You think the police will randomly hold up some white mother of 3, ask for her papers, and if she cant show them they will send her to mexico? Or what?

Looking white and speaking English are not Criteria for being an American, that's my exact problem with the bill it lends itself to discrimanation if you have a poor grasp of the english language or look like a poor Mexican.



The Democrats are drooling over the prospect of amnesty and millions of new little Democratos. They would never do anything to jeopardize that, regardless of the damage it does to the country.

The Republicans understand that Hispanics are the fastest growing minority in the nation, and if they were to vote in block for the Democrats along with other minorities it would force the GOP into permanent minority status and regional power. They know amnesty is coming, so they think they have to fight for the Mexicans while placating their anti-immigration base. That equates to some minor rhetoric against immigration with no real action - witness the presidency of George W. Bush.

What the Republicans don't realize is that they've already lost the Mexicans, so they might as well take a stand for what's right and let the cards fall where they may. Maybe they can pick up more white voters as the Democrats increasingly pander to the minorities. As we've seen, our lovely leader doesn't have any qualms about injecting race into the political dialogue and pitting one ethnic group against another. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0410/Obama_seeks_to_reconnectyoung_people_AfricanAmerins_Latinos_and_women_for_2010.html?showall)

One only needs to look at Texas And California to see that a conservative Mexican is alive and well in the States, I reject that narritive as I feel as more generations are born the more hispanics will break evenly.

By all social strata latins are already assimalating very quickly




So yes, everyone fears the Mexicans. They will be the game-changers in future elections.



He wasn't writing a thesis, and I don't think he posted it as solid evidence of anything. It's just a hypothetical situation that highlights some of the inequalities in our system.

[Husar]

Maybe the republican party should not just ignore the needs of the new minorities that are nonetheless US citizens.
If it ignores a large part of the voters it shouldn't blame the voters for it's own downfall.

Or do you allow illegal immigrants to vote?

[Lemur]

Or do you allow illegal immigrants to vote?
Nope, illegal immigrants cannot vote under any circumstances, and despite prolonged investigations (http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3826.shtml), no evidence has ever surfaced that they are a significant source of vote fraud. Electorally speaking, they're terra incognita.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The classic 'What's the worst that can happen?'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

[Strike For The South]

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy. Louie don't let the impressionable young minds get any ideas.

[Husar]

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy.

Why? Because you don't think Mexicans come from the moon?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Even comparing these 2 suituations is lunacy. Louie don't let the impressionable young minds get any ideas.That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

[Ice]

It's a stupid law, and should have never been passed.

I'll make this real simple. I don't like illegal immigrants, and if caught they should be deported. Plenty of people, including my great grandfather who fought in a world war so my family could have a better life, have immigrated to this country legally. The process is not easy, and often takes a great amount of money, time, and stress. People who bypass this process are cheating and should be punished.

That being said, all I think this law is going to do is increase racial profiling among LEGAL immigrants and people of Mexican descent. The police can say they won't do it, but something really stinks here.

[Devastatin Dave]

I love Taco Bell. The chilli cheese barito is crack wrapped in a tortilla. Nest time you need some chow late at night after some hard drinking removed by moderator, get you a chilli chesse barrito and Jesus will love you and your nipples. Amen...

[Kadagar_AV]

It's a stupid law, and should have never been passed.

I'll make this real simple. I don't like illegal immigrants, and if caught they should be deported. Plenty of people, including my great grandfather who fought in a world war so my family could have a better life, have immigrated to this country legally. The process is not easy, and often takes a great amount of money, time, and stress. People who bypass this process are cheating and should be punished.

That being said, all I think this law is going to do is increase racial profiling among LEGAL immigrants and people of Mexican descent. The police can say they won't do it, but something really stinks here.


Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

[Megas Methuselah]

Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

[Husar]

Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

So the natives never fought eachother before the arrival of the Europeans because they agreed that they all had a right to be there?

[PanzerJaeger]

That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.

Indeed. Aztlan is a dangerous concept for the US. This time, though, we have the resources to stop it. We just don't have the political will.

[Beskar]

Aztlan sounds like pre-WW2 Europe concept of German Lebensraum.

What is more likely to happen, is that North America merges into one nation state instead of the current 3 seperate ones.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Aztlan sounds like pre-WW2 Europe concept of German Lebensraum.

What is more likely to happen, is that North America merges into one nation state instead of the current 3 seperate ones.

That will be a LONG time coming, if ever. Canada and the USA are drifting together on enough sociopolitical issues/outlooks where such a possibility (though remote) does exist. But the Canadians don't need to be part of the USA to be successful. Mexico is pretty much always in tight straights, and would benefit from such a union in a number of ways, but the cultural differences would make it even more difficult and less likely.

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

[CountArach]

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.
Did someone say Manifest Destiny? :wink:

[Lemur]

Did someone say Manifest Destiny? :wink:
It done been manifested already. We're from sea to shining sea, not from Yucatan peninsula to North Pole.

[Strike For The South]

That's what the Tejanos thought back in 1848 too. 'A few Anglo immigrants are not going to change Texas....'

Welcome to the return of history. The US Southwest is currently being colonised as much as it was in the 19th century.


Indeed. Aztlan is a dangerous concept for the US. This time, though, we have the resources to stop it. We just don't have the political will.

You're average Mexican immagrant is about as concerend with aztlan as I am with kicking out all the Irish.

The vast majority of Mexicans I know hate Mexico and speak english to eachother and like anyone else they are to busy with there families and jobs to worry about a marganilized consparicy theory.

[Beskar]

That will be a LONG time coming, if ever. Canada and the USA are drifting together on enough sociopolitical issues/outlooks where such a possibility (though remote) does exist. But the Canadians don't need to be part of the USA to be successful. Mexico is pretty much always in tight straights, and would benefit from such a union in a number of ways, but the cultural differences would make it even more difficult and less likely.

Final verdict = please don't hold your breath waiting for the USA to encompass the whole continent.

True, but with NAFTA, you could see the beginnings of what happened with Europe, at first, Europe was a Free Trade Agreement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

Then again, I am one of those which thinks the merging of nation states is a good thing, the quicker we get rid of nations, the better.

[Major Robert Dump]

Better to be a migrant in the US than a migrant in Mexico:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_migrants_1

My favorite fact in the article:

At present, Article 67 of Mexico's Population Law says, "Authorities, whether federal, state or municipal ... are required to demand that foreigners prove their legal presence in the country, before attending to any issues."

Of course, NOW they are working to change it, when the mirror is shone back at them

[KukriKhan]

Hey El-Tee, good to see you again!! All is well with you in teh 'Stan?

-edit-
Last night I saw an AZ State Senator on TV; he sent to Ms Napolitano (former Dem Gov of AZ, nowadays a Fed; Dir, Homeland Security) an invoice for a couple billion bucks for costs associated with housing, feeding, and/or incarcerating illegal immigrants - similar to the bill she sent to GW Bush a few years ago. Funny, I thought. :)

[Ice]

Would you agree that racial profiling is only wrong if, say, statistics would not show huuuuuuuuuuge differences between races?

Or?

What?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Mexicans have more native blood than your average American, so they have more of a right to this continent anyways...

Why do the earlier immigrants always think they have a greater right than later immigrants?

CR

[Beskar]

Why do the earlier immigrants always think they have a greater right than later immigrants?

CR

Do you think Mexicans jumping over the fence have the same rights as American citizens then? :gasp:

[Major Robert Dump]

Hey El-Tee, good to see you again!! All is well with you in teh 'Stan?

-edit-
Last night I saw an AZ State Senator on TV; he sent to Ms Napolitano (former Dem Gov of AZ, nowadays a Fed; Dir, Homeland Security) an invoice for a couple billion bucks for costs associated with housing, feeding, and/or incarcerating illegal immigrants - similar to the bill she sent to GW Bush a few years ago. Funny, I thought. :)

Yeah, tis the start of my "weekend", which consists of 3 hrs off on Friday so I get to stay up late on thursday and be a bad boy on the internet.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Do you think Mexicans jumping over the fence have the same rights as American citizens then? :gasp:

Of course not.

The Native Americans/Amerinds/First Peoples were not barred by any legal entity or custom from emigrating to the Americas. By boat and/or Ice Bridge they came and settled.

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners. Other subsequent immigrant groups came over legally (mostly) according to the rules and regulations then extent.

Illegals crossing the border without following the established laws/procedures are -- however understandably on a familial/economic level -- committing a crime by entering the country illegally. It's just not the same thing.

[Lemur]

My favorite Republican makes a good case (http://theweek.com/bullpen/column/202381/In_defense_of_Arizona) for the Arizona law. As per usual, he makes very solid arguments.


The experience of the past two years has shown that migration responds swiftly to changing incentives. The Center for Immigration Studies has tracked monthly census data for young Hispanic males with low levels of education—a good proxy for the illegal immigrant population. Between the summer of 2007 and the first quarter of 2009, that population actually declined. Extrapolating from survey figures, CIS estimates that the illegal population in the U.S. dropped by 1.7 million during the recession. The number of illegals entering the country fell by about one-third while the number returning home doubled .

States and counties that have strengthened enforcement have seen declines in the population of non-English-speaking students in local schools (another good proxy for the illegal immigrant population).

Arizona’s law seeks a similar effect. It’s no substitute for federal enforcement. But it’s a big improvement over all the loose talk of amnesty.

[Beskar]

Of course not.

The Native Americans/Amerinds/First Peoples were not barred by any legal entity or custom from emigrating to the Americas. By boat and/or Ice Bridge they came and settled.

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners. Other subsequent immigrant groups came over legally (mostly) according to the rules and regulations then extent.

Illegals crossing the border without following the established laws/procedures are -- however understandably on a familial/economic level -- committing a crime by entering the country illegally. It's just not the same thing.

So as long as you follow rules, it is ok?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Legal immigrants are welcome as far as I'm concerned. However, those who are here illegally are breaking the law. Those who are employing them, supporting/abetting them, family included, are also breaking the law, and I don't care what ethinicity they are. It's not fair to the immigrants that follow the rules, nor those that pay social security & medicare/medicaid taxes. There should be a requirement to show proof of legal residency/citizenship via a social security number to collect any social services or apply for a job. A one year state residency requirement, and finger-printing for social services would go a long way to reduce the abuse of those benefits by those who don't legally deserve them.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A legal immigrant from Mexico living in Arizona speaks at a city council meeting in support of the law (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShkpO9Rf1bo&feature=player_embedded).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShkpO9Rf1bo&feature=player_embedded

CR

[Hosakawa Tito]

Ever wonder how Mexico deals with illegal immigration (http://www.sbsun.com/columnists/ci_3767570)?

Ironic, no? Especially considering this hypocrisy. (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2010/0426/Mexico-issues-sharp-rebuttal-to-Arizona-immigration-law)

[Husar]

Ever wonder how Mexico deals with illegal immigration (http://www.sbsun.com/columnists/ci_3767570)?

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So as long as you follow rules, it is ok?

I have no objection to legal immigrants who come to my country according the the established procedures. In fact, I think we need more than current quotas allow.

It's easy to understand why many in Mexico choose to flout US law on this. The economic incentive is powerful and our lax enforcement of existing laws doesn't exactly serve as a deterrent.

[Strike For The South]

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

Strawman

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ever wonder how North Korea treats it's citizens? You can still get a lot worse, as long as you stop just short of that you're still better! Isn't that great?

Huh? Hosa tossed that out to show the inherent hypocrisy of the Mexican government's position on illegal Mexican immigration to the USA. He was NOT arguing that the USA could or should be even meaner to illegal immigrants and others would have to tolerate it.

Numerous people have asserted that the US position on illegal immigration is inherently hypocritical as it is our businesses that are providing the jobs these illegals hop the border to obtain -- and that's a fair criticism. Hosa's is just the reverse of the coin.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have no objection to legal immigrants who come to my country according the the established procedures. In fact, I think we need more than current quotas allow.Woulod you support an increase in child allowance, subsidised education, parental leave and other governement incentives to raise birth rates?

[Louis VI the Fat]

You're average Mexican immagrant is about as concerend with aztlan as I am with kicking out all the Irish.

The vast majority of Mexicans I know hate Mexico and speak english to eachother and like anyone else they are to busy with there families and jobs to worry about a marganilized consparicy theory.Aztlan, meh.


A sense of reconquista? Why, it's not absent. Mexican kids learn in school how America stole half their country. Never underestimate Old World nationalist pettiness. 'Old World', in this case, meaning planet Earth minus the USA.

Check out the UK election thread. A UK woman, of part Irish immigrant ancestry herself, complained about East European immigration to Gordon Brown. Afterwards, Brown called her, in private, but with an open microphone, a 'bigoted woman'. By US standards, she IS a bigoted woman. Imagine an Irish-American complaining about Polish immigrants in the US. In America, a president would lose an election if he would not publicly speak out against it as bigotry. In the UK, not even the leftwing candidate is supposed to consider it bigotry. Brown has lost his PM by it, the public sides against Brown, the thought this woman should be bigoted is considered an insult, a sign of Brown being out-of-touch with public sentiment, a betrayal to the working class white Britons he's supposed to represent as the leftwing candidate.

Me being a petty Old Worlder myself, I must admit I do find it odd that, should I live to a ripe old age, by the time I die there will be nearly as many Hispanic Americans as Non-Hispanic White Americans. I need to get used to that. :embarassed:


Never underestimate demographics. One lifetime ago, there were twenty million Mexicans worldwide. Eighty years onwards, at the moment, there are thirty million Mexicans in the US, and 110 in Mexico.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Woulod you support an increase in child allowance, subsidised education, parental leave and other governement incentives to raise birth rates?

Whatever the government of a given state chooses to provide on these issues is between them and their voters -- I'd have no objection. The federal government shouldn't be involved in any of those issues. I want my governance as local as possible and decisions on those issues would seem to be directly relevant to a states' "competitiveness" in the market place.

I'd like to see more legal immigration because I think we can assimilate more folks than we do -- and because illegal immigration intensifies all of the negative aspects of the ghetto/barrio and does NOT aid assimilation.

[Strike For The South]

Aztlan, meh.


A sense of reconquista? Why, it's not absent. Mexican kids learn in school how America stole half their country. Never underestimate Old World nationalist pettiness. 'Old World', in this case, meaning planet Earth minus the USA.

Check out the UK election thread. A UK woman, of part Irish immigrant ancestry herself, complained about East European immigration to Gordon Brown. Afterwards, Brown called her, in private, but with an open microphone, a 'bigoted woman'. By US standards, she IS a bigoted woman. Imagine an Irish-American complaining about Polish immigrants in the US. In America, a president would lose an election if he would not publicly speak out against it as bigotry. In the UK, not even the leftwing candidate is supposed to consider it bigotry. Brown has lost his PM by it, the public sides against Brown, the thought this woman should be bigoted is considered an insult, a sign of Brown being out-of-touch with public sentiment, a betrayal to the working class white Britons he's supposed to represent as the leftwing candidate.

Me being a petty Old Worlder myself, I must admit I do find it odd that, should I live to a ripe old age, by the time I die there will be nearly as many Hispanic Americans as Non-Hispanic White Americans. I need to get used to that. :embarassed:


Never underestimate demographics. One lifetime ago, there were twenty million Mexicans worldwide. Eighty years onwards, at the moment, there are thirty million Mexicans in the US, and 110 in Mexico.

Well my response to you would be to quite simply get over it.

My 2nd response is that woman is a bigot.

Those hispanics will be just the same Americans provided the "old style" Americans have done there jobs and shown them that America is truly special and its ideas should be embraced.

I am basicaly an old style WASP, my great x10 grandad fought with the Brits angainst the French and then against them in Washingtons contenintal army.

So throught the years my family has seen many different people of many different skin tones of many different faiths come onto our shores and America is still here. It is still here because my family passed on America to them.

That is what is getting lost in this debate, America is not an ethnicty or a race and it belongs to no one. America is an idea. America is the anti thesis of everything that old english women is.

I don't care if there are only hispanics here because I know if we have done our jobs America the idea will live on and that's good enough for me.

[Husar]

Huh? Hosa tossed that out to show the inherent hypocrisy of the Mexican government's position on illegal Mexican immigration to the USA. He was NOT arguing that the USA could or should be even meaner to illegal immigrants and others would have to tolerate it.

Numerous people have asserted that the US position on illegal immigration is inherently hypocritical as it is our businesses that are providing the jobs these illegals hop the border to obtain -- and that's a fair criticism. Hosa's is just the reverse of the coin.

Well, oops, I misunderstood, sorry Hosa. :bow:

[ICantSpellDawg]

This country needs immigration more than anything else. We need to be careful not to confuse a legitimate desire to register everyone and bring in talent with pure xenophobia. I say give all illegals visas for temporary work status if they register within a 6 month period. It's better to have illegals registered in the U.S. than not at all.

The Arizona bill is probably unconstitutional, but it's bringing up a good debate that needed to take place - borders are not fluid, but out nation was built on immigration. Most reasonable people realize these two things, so lets build on that.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Well, oops, I misunderstood, sorry Hosa. :bow:

It was nada, I should have explained my position more clearly.:bow:

An opinion piece in the Washington Times: Bigotry label for thee, not me. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/bigotry-label-for-thee-but-not-for-me/)


To the coastal commentariat, "undocumented immigrants" are the people who mow your lawn while you're at work and clean your office while you're at home. (That, for the benefit of The New York Times' Linda Greenhouse, is the real apartheid: the acceptance of a permanent "undocumented" servant class by far too many "documented" Americans who assuage their guilt by pathetic sentimentalization of immigration.)

A lot of truth in this comment. Many illegals work for cash, at cut rate prices, so that their employer doesn't have to pay bothersome social security taxes, unemployment benefit taxes etc... It's like a shadow economy akin to what goes on in Greece.


Almost every claim made for the benefits of mass immigration is false. Europeans were told that they needed immigrants to help prop up their otherwise unaffordable social entitlements: In reality, Turks in Germany have three times the rate of welfare dependency as ethnic Germans, and their average retirement age is 50. Two-thirds of French imams are on the dole.

How close to the mark this comment hits I don't know, but I know we have members who might. Louis ? Husar ?

As has been said, there is a real need to formulate a better immigration policy. I applaud Arizona for forcing the Feds to address this, it's way overdue.

[Megas Methuselah]

The Euro-colonials were not barred by any legal entity or custom (N.A. not having such a codified system as had Europe) and were not effectively enough opposed by the then-owners.

HA... HA... HA.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

HA... HA... HA.

Well, the legality of the conquest of the New World was entirely correct....in the eyes of the conquerors. I freely admit that those persons living in the Americas prior to 1492 might have a different view as to that legality, as will/would many of their direct descendents no doubt.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Establish a massive scale guest worker program, tell them that any worker who wants work can sign up and register and will be provided free access to come and go into and out the US without trouble and minimum wage so their low socio economic status is removed from the equation (hilarious I know, since the minimum wage hasnt been increased since 97 because republicans dont believe in inflation). At least it will keep track of the problem in terms of numbers and will work against drug cartels throwing immigrants in harms way by using them as drug mules.

[Tuuvi]

I believe the best way to solve the illegal immigration is to make it easier for people to come here legally. I'm pretty sure the majority of people who came here illegally would have happily came over legally if they had been able to do so. I've heard that immigrating to the U.S. can be an expensive, bureaucratic nightmare. Not something that your average illegal immigrant is very capable of.


Establish a massive scale guest worker program, tell them that any worker who wants work can sign up and register and will be provided free access to come and go into and out the US without trouble and minimum wage so their low socio economic status is removed from the equation (hilarious I know, since the minimum wage hasnt been increased since 97 because republicans dont believe in inflation). At least it will keep track of the problem in terms of numbers and will work against drug cartels throwing immigrants in harms way by using them as drug mules.

Wasn't the minimum wage raised to 7.25 just last year?

[Lemur]

So apparently the interest group that drafted the bill, and which is helping draft others in four southern states, has some creepy connections (http://gawker.com/5529320/the-racist-hate-group-behind-arizonas-new-immigration-law).


IRLI's website says it fights to protect the "legal rights, privileges, and property of U.S. citizens and their communities from injuries and damages caused by unlawful immigration." It is affiliated with a group called the Federation for American Immigration Immigration Reform (FAIR). Advocacy group The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks domestic hate groups, is unambiguous in labelling FAIR racist and dangerous. An investigation in 2007 revealed that:


The founder, chief ideologue and long-time funder of FAIR [John Tanton] is a racist. Key staff members have ties to white supremacist groups, some are members, and some have spoken at hate group functions. FAIR has accepted more than $1 million from a racist foundation devoted to studies of race and IQ, and to eugenics - the pseudo-science of breeding a better human race that was utterly discredited by the Nazi euthanasia program. It spreads racist conspiracy theories.

The group has also consulted with Vlaams Belang, a racist Belgian political party that used to be called Vlaams Block. Until the Belgian Supreme court banned it under that name for xenophobia. Which might explain why, according to Think Progress again, FAIR's legal arm, IRLI, has been behind some of the most racist-seeming pieces of legislation on the books. It charges $300 per hour to train Sheriff Joe Arpaio's men, who make sweeps for illegal immigrants, on immigration law.

All a bit hysterical, but it bears closer examination, certainly.

[drone]

The first paragraph in that article hurts it's overall veracity. :no:

On a side note, I would have guessed LaRouche was involved. ~D

[Strike For The South]

It does bear further observation however I wouldn't be surprised if the SPLC got a little zealous in there painting of FAIR....they do tend to do that.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Establish a massive scale guest worker program, tell them that any worker who wants work can sign up and register and will be provided free access to come and go into and out the US without trouble and minimum wage so their low socio economic status is removed from the equation (hilarious I know, since the minimum wage hasnt been increased since 97 because republicans dont believe in inflation). At least it will keep track of the problem in terms of numbers and will work against drug cartels throwing immigrants in harms way by using them as drug mules.

Republicans believe in inflation, what they do not believe in is the minimum wage.

A broader and more easily used "guest worker" program probably does have to be part of any reasonable solution to this issue.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wasn't the minimum wage raised to 7.25 just last year?

You are correct, I was not aware of this until now. Looks like in 2006 or 2007 they set some sort of established increase over the three years. Before that though, it was ten years that it had gone unchanged.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Republicans believe in inflation, what they do not believe in is the minimum wage.

A broader and more easily used "guest worker" program probably does have to be part of any reasonable solution to this issue.

I just dont understand what is wrong with telling them that as long as we know who they are and as long as they obey our laws they can come over and take in a piece of American prosperity by doing the jobs we dont want with American pay.

[Strike For The South]

Americans will do these jobs. Illegals get hired because the companies can bilk the tax man

[Beskar]

They should make it so illegal immigrants have to be paid at least the minimum wage. If they aren't, the companies will have to pay the costs owed to them.

What this means, if that the illegals can sue the companies, which get the companies in a big mess in legal fines and pay-outs, also, the immigration officers can deport the illegals back to Mexico.

This means that companies will not hire illegals due to fear of law suits and fines, thus not deprive the "hard-working Americans" from their jobs and also allows the Feds to remove the illegals from the United States.

Win-Win.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I just dont understand what is wrong with telling them that as long as we know who they are and as long as they obey our laws they can come over and take in a piece of American prosperity by doing the jobs we dont want with American pay.

That might be a bit more broad a guest worker program than I'd go thought about, but as long as ID and proper screening occurred during entry, that might end up being okay.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Americans will do these jobs. Illegals get hired because the companies can bilk the tax man

Then it still brings me back to my solution. Create the guest worker program, catalog the workers and force companies to pay them the minimum wage so its an even playing field between the Americans and illegals.

[a completely inoffensive name]

That might be a bit more broad a guest worker program than I'd go thought about, but as long as ID and proper screening occurred during entry, that might end up being okay.

Awesome, we agree then. -High fives-

[Lemur]

Interesting details emerge (http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/04/if-youre-going-to-arizona-be-s):


The law recognizes a driver's license from another state as proof that one is not "an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States," but only if that state "requires proof of legal residence in the United States before issuance." According to this fairly recent summary (http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=234828), about half a dozen states don't. So Latino drivers from, say, Michigan could be in for a real hassle if they happen to be pulled over in Arizona, even if they are native-born U.S. citizens. Considering that a perfectly legal visitor from Mexico was nabbed by Arpaio's deputies and detained for almost nine hours even though he presented several forms of ID, including a valid visa, Latinos from states that don't meet Arizona's criteria probably should carry a passport. Or just avoid Arizona.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...Latinos from states that don't meet Arizona's criteria probably should carry a passport. Or just avoid Arizona.[/indent]

Which is, I suspect, the real intent of this law.

[lars573]

Robert Rodriguez comments on the Arizona immigration bill. With a trailer for his movie Machete.
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44943

It's a red band trailer, watch at your own risk. Although it is hilarious.

[PanzerJaeger]

American children disciplined for wearing American flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo. (http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/265455-american-flag-shirts-ignite-firestorm)

[drone]

American children disciplined for wearing American flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo. (http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/265455-american-flag-shirts-ignite-firestorm)

I heard about that on the radio last night. Hi-larious. Especially since Cinco de Mayo is more like Jose Cuervo Day than anything else. As one caller said, "Did the school not fly the US flag on May 5th?" Hopefully the school admin gets canned.

[Strike For The South]

American children disciplined for wearing American flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo. (http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/265455-american-flag-shirts-ignite-firestorm)

HAHA. They do realize Cinco de Mayo isn't celebrated in Mexico

Idoits.

[Reenk Roink]

The kids were probably doing it to be douchebags but the school is just... :no:

[ICantSpellDawg]

So what? Is it not a day to celebrate a Mexican military victory? Are Mexicans not the primary celebrators? What does it matter what they do in Mexico? Mexicans in the United States think Mexico is the greatest country on earth. Mexicans in Mexico know it's a load. Telling kids that they can't wear American flag shirts EVER is absurd.

There is probably more to the story - like the kids were screaming racial slurs, but the idea that kids would get in trouble for wearing the flag of their country anywhere within their own country is pretty obviously stupid.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Which is, I suspect, the real intent of this law.

Hey, hey. The intent of the law is not to keep latino's out. The intent is to force the issue so that other states and the Federal government enforce our immigration policies and secure the border. Most people recognize the need for large levels of immigration within the confines of law and responsibility. To suggest that reasonable people can't have any interest in a legitimate strategy to contain the border is disingenuous.

I'd like to see a tougher crackdown on businesses who use illegal immigrant labor and a substantially increased worker visa program. Couple these things with Immigration checkpoints in border states and federally funded prisons for illegals in Mexico. I think the most important part of this idea is the increased worker visa program. We need immigration and we need to make it easier for immigrants to get here, but we need to know who they are and store substantial amounts of biometric information about them. "Amnesty" regarding citizenship, beyond creating a time sensetive window to register for a work-visa program for those already here, is not a realistic, healthy or just option. Create a road to citizenship with a certain amount of military service, even for those here illegally.

Hispanics are the modern Irish and Italians. This has very little to do with race and EVERYTHING to do with security and our economy. We need immigrants AND the rule of law.

[Strike For The South]

So what? Is it not a day to celebrate a Mexican military victory? Are Mexicans not the primary celebrators? What does it matter what they do in Mexico? Mexicans in the United States think Mexico is the greatest country on earth. Mexicans in Mexico know it's a load. Telling kids that they can't wear American flag shirts EVER is absurd.

There is probably more to the story - like the kids were screaming racial slurs, but the idea that kids would get in trouble for wearing the flag of their country anywhere within their own country is pretty obviously stupid.

Mexicans do not celebrate the holiday

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Mexicans do not celebrate the holiday

As I understand it, Cinquo de Mayo is celebrated about as much as we celebrate Bunker Hill. A monument visited once in a while and a few para's in the history texts. Can any of you yanks name the date of the Battle of Bunker Hill off the top of your head without a quick Google to help? I know I cannot and I very much am a history buff.

Where I was raised in Jersey and then Virginia, Cinquo de Mayo was the day for the Mexican restaraunts to get a big bar crowd and have some live mariachi and other bands for a change. When I was a kid, I assumed that it was at least as important to Mexicans as St. Pat's was to the Irish. Of course, then I read that St. Pat's was -- until recently -- mostly a big thing here and more of a quiet holy day in Ireland.

Our whole relationship with Mexico is a perversion. We are neither acting rationally nor acting according to our ideological tenets, nor -- and this is the wors part -- even remotely consistent.

[Tuuvi]

Mexicans do not celebrate the holiday

Where I live they do, last saturday they had a cinco de mayo event at the local catholic church, a couple of my mexican friends went and I believe a lot of the participants where mexican.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Where I live they do, last saturday they had a cinco de mayo event at the local catholic church, a couple of my mexican friends went and I believe a lot of the participants where mexican.


In our area... Small parties, but nothing much.




Don't come here illgealy. My great-grand parents from the Austrian-Hungarian Empire (former solider/salior my great-grandfathers on my mom side were) and on my dad side (1 fought in Haller Blue Army aganist Russia) from Poland came here legally and they didn't speak good English. But they still came here legally. So don't hand me this crap we need to treat illegials nice. Come here legally or Stay out!

[Subotan]

So because something is against the law, it must be bad? Whilst simultaneously, everything that is legal is good?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So because something is against the law, it must be bad? Whilst simultaneously, everything that is legal is good?

I suppose your verbal trap could have been more obvious, but other than a flashing TRAP sign I don't know how.


He's asserting the simple premise that illegal immigration is just that, illegal. He suggests, as have many others, that those side-stepping the system are at least implicitly showing disrespect for those who emigrated according to the rules/procedures. He's wrong about "treating them nice," of course. They should be very politely treated and respectfully addressed as they are returned to their country of origin.

[Subotan]

I tried to find a large TRAP sign, but I couldn't find one big enough.

Regardless, surely the point of illegal immigration is to keep thugs and criminals out? What is wrong with purely economic migrants?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Regardless, surely the point of illegal immigration is to keep thugs and criminals out? What is wrong with purely economic migrants?The point of illegal immigrantion is to decide who you want in by democratic means, not by the luck of the desert.

What is wrong or not about economic migrants is open to democratic debate, which will then turn this into law.



What is wrong with speeding? Surely the point of driving is to get from A to B?

[Megas Methuselah]

Come here legally or Stay out!

That's what I keep telling you people, but that just makes you all mad or something. Not my fault the truth isn't in your favour.

[Strike For The South]

Where I live they do, last saturday they had a cinco de mayo event at the local catholic church, a couple of my mexican friends went and I believe a lot of the participants where mexican.


Those people are not Mexicans. They are Americans

[Hosakawa Tito]

Illegal immigrant student hope she spurs reform. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/14/illegal-immigrant-student-hopes-she-spurs-reform/)

What the article doesn't say is how much financial aid she received, if any, for her degree.
If so, she should be required to pay it back. Then returned home to Mexico to apply for a work visa to come to the US legally. Why should she, and the reportly thousands of similar illegals, get a free & easy pass for breaking the law while other immigrants who go through the legal process bear the sacrifices that go with it?

My step-daughter will be attending her first college semester this August. Her eligibilty for financial aid = just about 0. That's okay, we'll sacrifice to pay for it. Through taxes we'll sacrifice to pay for those who do qualify for financial aid, but I'll be :daisy: to agree to support those who feel entitled to these benefits who are here illegally and knowingly breaking the law.

[Tuuvi]

[QUOTE=Strike For The South;2488417]Those people are not Mexicans. They are Americans[/QUOTE.] Some of them were American yes, but some of them were Mexican immigrants also.

[Strike For The South]

[QUOTE=Strike For The South;2488417]Those people are not Mexicans. They are Americans[/QUOTE.] Some of them were American yes, but some of them were Mexican immigrants also.

Mexicans in Mexico do not celebrate..

[drone]

I see your Schwartz is as big as mine (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7742456/Arizona-threatens-to-cut-off-LA-electricity-supply.html)

Arizona threatens to cut off LA electricity supply
Los Angeles receives about 25 per cent of its power from Arizona, meaning a quarter of America's second largest city could be plunged into darkness.

Politicians in the city voted last week to impose a boycott on Arizona which will affect about $8 million (£5.3 million) worth of contracts with the state. City officials will also stop travelling to Arizona.

In response an Arizona utility commissioner raised the prospect of the state's utility companies cutting Los Angeles off.

In a letter to the city Arizona Corporation Commission member Gary Pierce said: "If an economic boycott is truly what you desire, I will be happy to encourage Arizona utilities to renegotiate your power agreements so Los Angeles no longer receives any power from Arizona-based generation.

"I am confident that Arizona's utilities would be happy to take those electrons off your hands.

"If, however, you find that the City Council lacks the strength of its convictions to turn off the lights in Los Angeles and boycott Arizona power, please reconsider the wisdom of attempting to harm Arizona's economy." Mr Pierce said if Los Angeles was "serious" about its boycott and not just "posturing" then it would have to consider supplying its own power.
:laugh4: