View Full Version : SJ : Mori, the road to Kaga
[Intended settings : Sengoku Jidai campaign, Eliminate all rival clans, Expert difficulty, 60men units, Mori clan]
Hello few all !
There are plenty of threads about the SJ campaign for the Takeda, the Uesugi, the Oda, etc.
I've found there are very few dedicated to the Mori clan. Besides, whereas we can read about various strategies for Takeda, for example, the Mori clan feels very straightforward (understand "dull"). Oftentimes, it is presented as a pale copy of the Shimazu clan with a more difficult start, due to the many fronts it has. Oh, great Morimoto, why on earth wasn't your clan compared more to the Oda ?
I have no hope to present something "new" in a game released 10 years ago, but only to give some reading material a bit different from what can be found.
Fast presentation of the "consensual" strategy :
-1st turn : Invade all 3 of Takeda's provinces (Aki, Bingo, Bitchu). Start a mine in Harima.
-2nd turn : Capture Aki's castle, garrison all 3 provinces to avoid rebellion.
- From then on : Declare war on Shimazu to "lock" the land in Nagato. Expansion may vary : probably East and South-East but attacks from Shimazu are to be expected, hence the need to wipe him out of the map and/or to garrison heavily the area (taking time & troops to conquer/protect worthless lands).
--> Try to build ports everywhere to compete in income with the eastern clans, and crawl your way eastwards to meet whoever has become a superpower (don't forget to thank god the AI doesn't make naval attacks and pretend you don't either because it is cheating - semi-pun).
It works, yep ! It is painful, but it works.
Ways and reasons lead on the road to Kaga.
Here are the some :
- Break Takeda's army in the west. But don't invade Aki's castle. Takeda will act as a buffer between Shimazu and you.
- the less resources you invest defending the west, the faster you can expand to the east. The faster you do, the less developped Hojo/Uesugi/whoever will be developped by the time you get there. An inexpensive way to do so is to build early a Tea House in Tajima. Then spam shinobis to the west. They can be used for defence or to provoke a war between any of the 3 clans there.
- The healthier Takeda and Imagawa will be, the more trouble Hojo and Shimazu will have to expand. Typically, breaking Takeda gives Hojo a great opportunity to expand ! So alliances with Imagawa and Takeda are to be sought, provided they don't crush Shimazu.
- Kaga... Kaga trains +1 honour monks. Just like Kii, it is a great province for Mori. The Rebels often build a port there, so it will be easy to transport reinforcements from Harima once it is invaded. Finally, it opens the path for an invasion of Echigo. Once Mori controls Echigo, there shouldn't be anyone capable of stopping him, especially (I insist, especially) if all clans are still alive, a thing your opening has almost guaranteed.
- The road to Kaga goes through Owari. Yes, Oda is troublesome (so maybe 1 clan will be missing once Kaga joins the Mori - but it is the clan that makes YOU the superpower). He will help in defeating the central rebels, but war with him is almost unavoidable. Besides, central Japan is rich, so taking it will fund your expansion. Owari-Mino is a fine defensive line, accross which should be an ally, Imagawa. Holding this and up to Kaga plus the Bitchu-Sanuki line to the west makes an excellent position, both offensively and defensively.
The road to Kaga... makes Mori the richest clan in all Japan in the first few years.
Interested ? Want to follow that path as well ?
Just wanted to say this is possible. I'd be tempted to say it also makes both a more complete, dynamic and faster game for the Mori.
I may provide a campaign report, but don't expect screenshots of battles. Screens of the strategic map are doable, though.
TWD.
ps :
Mori specific :
- Mori has the 2nd army in size at the beginning of the SJ campaign, behind Oda. But Mori's army is of a much better quality ! So are his generals. The Road to Kaga takes full advantage of this.
- Mori's lands are poor, that's right. Aki may provide income, but it requires an initial investment of 500 kokus. Along with the required garrison, this slows even more his territorial expansion.
- Sanuki and Kawachi are very rich and give a very early economic boost. They also are in the direction of the intended expansion, making the garrison and troop movements easy to manage.
- Mori doesn't need 10 provinces in which he can build armouries :laugh4:
- The Buddhist temple is costly, but if Yamashiro doesn't change sides 10 times, it is likely to provide one for free. Cheap +1 honour Monks on the frontline are a huge boost to territorial expansion. Hence the need to get there early.
Oddities :
- Shimazu and Takeda will NOT invade your western provinces early. Maybe this is because they are so poor. Maybe it is because they want to avoid making contact, risking a war for (again) worthless lands. It gives some time to spam shinobis.
- Don't kill Shimazu while he is allied with Takeda. Takeda gets much more agressive once he gains 10 provinces !
Unspecific :
- Invading provinces with castles yields a lot of kokus to fund expansion ;
- The AI tends to spam watchtowers/border forts. Taking a province, burning them and abandonning the province is also a way to gain some kokus ;
- If invaded in summer and left in autumn, a province will yield income, even if it is lost (with the 1st "-", this makes 2 additionnal reasons to invade Aki in the 1st turn. The first being that the less army Takeda has, the later he will become expansion minded in the west).
Interesting and entertaining. Hopefully you post more.
Jef Costello
04-29-2010, 17:51
You inspired me to do the same (using 120 man units)
I have got down to yamashiro but I can't get the koku together for a decnet army and Shimazu has a huge army ready to hit me in the rear.
:( good luck
Glad to provoke some interest.
@Jef : Don't take it bad, but I think it is great news you didn't find the "Kaga Challenge" too easy :) To be fair, I had to try several times to find enough "good moves" to make it viable.
This is a rush type strategy, so I think that the 120men units is actually an increase in difficulty (I will try it and tell you how I go - just gotta find out how to take screens conveniently). 60 men makes the logistics much easier to manage, I guess.
Questions : What date is your game ?
Is Shimazu allied with Imagawa and Takeda ? That would be the worst case scenario.
Is your Tea House up and running in Tajima ? With 5-6 shinobis in a province newly conquered by Shimazu, you can raise a free army. Be sure to have a rank2-3 general area, go save those troops and retreat to a near province until you can fight on equal footing. If you have extra shinobis, provoke rebellions behind the front lines.
What's going on in the Iyo-Sanuki-Tosa-River province island ? Has Shimazu been agressive there ?
Jef Costello
04-29-2010, 21:40
I'm fighting 1580. Tokugawa is dead, Oda died and came back. I am allied with shimazu but he's going to hit attack me. I stirred up a few rebellions with my shinobi but they didn't take.
I tested quickly and yes ! 120men units make the start more difficult to manage.
- Units upkeep is killing Mori, who bleeds 300 kokus at the start of the game ;
- The Daymio is less efficient, hence the need to use more troops to invade Takeda's lands.
Maybe it gets easier afterwards, if many troops survive the many battles... I'm not sure, yet.
Anyways, here it goes ! On the Road to Kaga, round 1 :
Summer 1530.
Buildings :
As a general rule of thumb, I would spend half of my income to build up the economy. Here, the first season makes exception, though.
1000 kokus to spend :
- A mine is started in Harima (500) ;
- Sanuki's invasion is planned, we will start an improved farmland there (250).
Training :
- 120 Yari Ashigaru in Mimasaka (200).
Troop movements :
Now it gets interesting. Provinces invaded in summer will yield income, no matter what. Thus, we will start invading in as many directions as possible.
- Our emissary starts his way to the port of Aki, going through Takeda's lands. His objective is to go meet lord Imagawa and propose an alliance.
- Inaba's and Harima's troop meet in Tajima ;
- Archer and Yari Samurai from Bizen invade Sanuki. This battle needs to be a success since it has a high yield of kokus and it is already planned to build a farm there in autumn ;
- Lord Mori and an Archer from Mimasaka invade Bitchu, seconded by a Yari Samurai from Hoki ;
- The remaining Samurai in Mimasaka goes to Harima ;
- Suo's forces invade Aki with the assisance of Ashigarus from Iwami ;
- Samurais in Izumo go to Bizen, along with the Archer from Iwami.
https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6900/snapshot043521.jpg (https://img265.imageshack.us/i/snapshot043521.jpg/)
The battle for Aki and Sanuki have been difficult and bloody, but operations as a whole are a success ! The swordsman event was unlocked in Tajima... However, Mori is probably the clan that has the most little use for No-Dachis.
Autumn 1530.
- Great news : Oda has failed to invade Yamashiro ! Both sides should be weakened and Yamashiro's buildings are still intact.
- We pull back 240 men from Aki to Bingo, 360 from Bingo to Bitchu, 230 from Bitchu to Bizen (including Lord Mori). Our rank 3 general also retreats from Tajima to Harima.
- There are only 100 archers and 26 Samurai left from the battle in Sanuki, so reinforcements should be sent there on the next turn.
- Our emissary goes along his way.
- We start building the improved farmland in Sanuki, hoping the Rebels won't invade before reinforcements arrive.
https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9595/snapshot041622.jpg (https://img146.imageshack.us/i/snapshot041622.jpg/)
From this point, military objectives target Kawachi and Yamashiro. Along with the Daimyo, our rank 3 general is to be used extentsively. It would be nice to have him reach rank 4 as soon as possible. It will take a few seasons to move our forces there. Hopefully, Oda and the Rebels will have fought more during that time and we will invade before autumn comes. Mimasaka will pump 2 Ashis a year for garrison purposes. Ashis will enable to move our Yari Samurais from the West to the East.
Economically, our income has bumped from -300 kokus to +1150. So... even though harsh battles were fought in Aki and Sanuki, it gives us a nice security.
More to come :)
@Jeff : I have very little knowledge of the 1580 campaign.
I know there are many many more units on the battlefields, though. So I don't know if rushing is as viable as in the SJ campaign.
The strategy proposed here is SJ specific. Maybe it is viable for other campaigns, maybe it is not. I do not know :)
So... here is what follows :)
I do not know yet how far how I'll take this campaign, but this post gives a much clearer idea of what the "road to Kaga" is about ! Hope you enjoy !
Winter 1530.
The Rebels invade Sanuki with 220 men to my 120. Harsh times. I choose to defend because defending the farmlands there is key !
Good news : They are two units of archers.
https://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1207/snapshot043423.jpg (https://img32.imageshack.us/i/snapshot043423.jpg/)
Peasants rebel in Tajima.
Buildings :
The new budget is 1200 kokus.
I start an Improved farmland in Bitchu and queue a superior farmland in Sanuki (600).
Trainings :
2 units of Yari Ashigaru are ordered in Mimasaka (400). A lot of samurais are still garrisoning the western front.
Troop movements :
- The emissary finally reaches Aki.
- Our rank 3 general goes back to Tajima to defend against the rebels.
- A unit of Yari Samurai reinforces Sanuki.
- Lord Mori and the Archers in Bizen reinforce Harima.
- Behind the front, 120 Ashis move from Mimasaka to Bitchu and all 3 units from Bitchu move to Bizen.
https://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7571/snapshot044400.jpg (https://img687.imageshack.us/i/snapshot044400.jpg/)
Spring 1531.
The Rebels have captured Kawachi from lord Oda. Tamba isn’t garrisoned anymore, although the revolted peasants in Tajima retreated. Odd.
There are loyalty issues in Sanuki, Bitchu and Tajima but an ashigaru unit is incoming to solve them. So the time seems favourable to move forth.
Troop movements :
- The emissary in Aki is shipped to Totomi.
- Our samurais in Bizen split : one Yari reinforces Sanuki, the other and the archer move to the front line in Harima.
- Our rank 3 general and the Yari Samurai from Tajima invade Tamba.
- Lord Mori and his troops invade Kawachi.
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9673/snapshot045000.jpg (https://img227.imageshack.us/i/snapshot045000.jpg/)
Summer 1531.
Tamba is conquered. Oda sent troops as well but retreated. Lord Mori, vastly outnumbered, called off his attack on Kawachi.
https://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4931/snapshot043901.jpg (https://img691.imageshack.us/i/snapshot043901.jpg/)
Tajima is down to a dreadful 56% loyalty. However, this is summer : the time to strike ! We will divide our troops to confuse the rebels. Hopefully, they will not make the right decisions and our invasion of central Japan will be successful !
Troop movements :
- Lord Mori, 2 archers and 2 samurais go invade Kawachi. This will be tough ;
- Saito, our soon to be rank 4 general, heads straight to Yamashiro, along with his samurai escort. There are no troops outside of Yamashiro’s castle… Maybe the province is empty, maybe reinforcements from Kawachi will ease the taking of the bridge ;
- Our new Ashigaru (rank 2 general) goes garrison Harima ;
- A Yari Samurai from Sanuki fakes an attack on Awaji, intending to prevent the rebels to strike Harima (that would look bad) ;
- Our emissary heads to Shinano, in search for lord Imagawa.
At this point, no alliance has been formed, yet. But Imagawa is at war with Uesugi and Takeda. He holds Shinano and has lost Suo.
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5379/snapshot040301.jpg (https://img215.imageshack.us/i/snapshot040301.jpg/)
Autumn 1531.
To the west, Lord Shimazu has invaded Iyo.
Otherwise, our summer operations were a complete success ! First, Harima wasn’t invaded.
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9316/snapshot040001.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/i/snapshot040001.jpg/)
Then, Yamashiro was taken without a fight. An archery dojo, a sword dojo and a Buddhist temple are there ! We will have some quality reinforcements very fast, now !
Finally, the rank 3 rebel general invaded Tamba, facilitating the (still bloody) battle for the bridge of Kawachi.
https://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4931/snapshot043901.jpg (https://img40.imageshack.us/i/snapshot043901.jpg/)
Good fortune shines upon the Mori clan :
https://img43.imageshack.us/img43/142/snapshot041101.jpg (https://img43.imageshack.us/i/snapshot041101.jpg/)
Is that any surprise ? In a mere 5 seasons, our annual profit has risen from -300 kokus to… 2100 !
From then on, we should solve the loyalty issue, which will slow a bit the expansion. Starting castles in Harima and Tajima also becomes very pressing.
Regarding the military strategy, it is probably a better idea to start conquering the great farmable lands of Kii, Ise, Omi, Mino, etc. and then head north to Kaga !
Oda is besieged in Iga. Kii is empty. Keeping loyalty to a decent level is the main issue, with regards to conquering that area !
Troop movements :
- Lord Imagawa isn’t in Shinano, but his clan holds Etchu. There goes Mori’s emissary.
- 120 yari samurai from Kawachi are assigned to the protection of Yamashiro.
- Samurai from Sanuki fake another attack on Awaji.
- Finally, Lord Mori tries to solve the rebels issue by invading the Tamba province, assisted by 70 archers from Kawachi and the 100 Ashigarus from Tajima.
Buildings :
- With Kawachi conquered, the superior farmland queued in Sanuki can be cancelled. It would be finished too late to benefit from it next year.
- Instead, we require the construction of an improved farmland in Kawachi.
- A castle in Harima also is started.
https://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9660/snapshot045802.jpg (https://img521.imageshack.us/i/snapshot045802.jpg/)
End of the season. Cheers !
That would be the end of it, I'm afraid. I can't seem to manoeuver 120 men units on the battlefield (maybe I should systematically rearrange their number of ranks to make them deeper ?).
The position above is quite delicate, due to lightning fast expansion, inland rebels and loyalty troubles. It could be ok since I can outmanoeuver the rebels on the strategic map, but I have kept on either suffering unnecessary losses, or plainly losing crucial battles (I tried several times, ... even outnumbering 240 Ashigarus in Awaji with my 240 YS and 70 Archers from Sanuki, attacking from above, etc. I lost. Just now.)
Need some practice before showcasing a strategy with different settings. The irony being I completed the Owari-Mino-Echizen-Kaga line by summer 1535 with 60 men units.
@Jeff : I don't think this strategy can fit for the 1580 campaign :
Takeda is absent in the west and he is essential to act as a buffer. In 1580, Mori is certain to be attacked from the west.
ReluctantSamurai
04-30-2010, 19:00
First of all, a nice, though very delicate (by which I mean on the knife-edge) start! Having a plan and setting everything to work towards it is so important in campaigning. As Mori, I've taken to spamming out a few shinobi once I've taken Tajima with the bonus to help with rebellions. I prefer a quiet interior:laugh4:
You also use a similar wait-and-see for Kawachi that I use as 1580 Oda....let others bleed on the rebels before stepping in and snatching it.
It'll be interesting to see how Takeda and Shimazu react to each other......I'm laying money that Shimazu takes him out.:laugh4:
Welcome to the org and the sword dojo TWD :bow:
Nice Mori camp you have there. I usually blitz the Takeda all at once in turn one and take it from there. The safest route is then, after conquering kawachi/tamba/wakasa that give a strong and small/easily defensible frontier to go for the lucrative lands in Kyushu (Hizen/Chikuzen), and after that complete the Kyushu conquest before heading northeast.
The other way is to blitz all the way to Owari, avoiding Yamashiro initialy and taking it only afterwards. Then you can iether head northeast or southwest depending on what theothers are doing.
When you blitz, put taxes all the way to lowest, and depend on raiding and capturing new land. Build few buildings and produce many troops while building up your generals at the same time and depend on their rank for honor bonuses.
:bow:
Thank you, ReluctantSamurai :)
I'm glad to hear this strategy isn't new to you !
I've tested this opening many times and, indeed, the diplomacy is very entertaining. All scenarios happen : Takeda-Shimazu alliance/war ; Imagawa-Shimazu alliance/war. I have never had Takeda and Imagawa to make contact to the west, though. What I regret the most when Mori wipes Takeda out in the first two seasons is precisely the lack of diplomacy (I hope my OP explained how a dynamic diplo can make the game easier).
The other fun thing I find here is the strategy split between east and west (army on a side, shinobis on the other). Shimazu 1530 (not SJ) is another campaign that can play the same, troops being produced in Tosa and Shinobis in ... in ... their starting castle. I can't remember the name of the province :)
As for your (soft) advice : in the opening shown, yes, I could have waited for reinforcements before invading Kawachi & Yamashiro. But rushing is what makes a rush a rush, right ?! The inexpected bad news was that I didn't pillage kokus from Yamashiro, since it wasn't garrisoned, I guess.
120 men units makes reinforcements slower and the loyalty harder to manage. I was mentally prepared for it but couldn't handle it in practice + the increased difficulty to manoeuver larger units on the battlefied.
Eeeek ! Now I want to restart it just all the more !
@Gollum : thank you as well.
True about the taxes, altough... I'd rather get income from my farms if I can. Here, I should definitely have lowered them.
From my experience, conquering Owari without holding Yamashiro and Ise is very troublesome... I'd say the point about conquering central Japan is to get a large income. Provinces like Kii, Yamato, Mino, etc. pay for themselves and the losses you suffered conquering them very fast.
On the other hand, I've never relied mostly on pillage to secure my income. I value farms very highly.
Your campaign was entertaining! Too bad you finished. Perhaps you can do another? Though I did wonder why you didn't produce any shinobi to help prevent rebellion. As Mori, after taking out Takeda, I usually go west and take the Imagawa and Shimazu holdings, perhaps ronin island too, before trekking east. I don't like to fight on two fronts if I can help it. Well with Oda, I guess that's impossible. Even as Imagawa I pull out of the east and concentrate on the west and move eastward from there. But I usally only play SJ. Still, keep the campaigns coming!
hello TWD,
there are two polar opposite approaches: turtling and blitzing, with many in-betweens.
At the most extreme, turtling consists of trading expansion for improving the overall income by investing in farm-improvements/mines/trade and better troops. Territories during turtling are taxed to the max, usually keeping enough forces for effective defence against neighbours. The idea is to gain an advantage either by improving total income and increasing the cash flow margin, or by getting better troops in order to have a battle advantage or both. The disadvantages are that during turtling opponents are given time to either tech upand invest themselves or to conquer their neighbours - so essentially you give time for the chance to get better cash flow, better total income and bette troops. The advantage sought in qualitative.
In blitzing the exact opposite happnes: you trade quality for time. You seek to take from your opponents their valuable land quickly so they can't develop. The advantage sought here is quantitative; the blitzer seeks to have a constant flow of troops produced and aims to feed off the land of his opponents. By setting tax to minimum you gain a population happiness bonus that ensures you can avoid rebellions and move quickly from newly conquered provinces even if you lightly garisson them. The blitzer does not care to maximise the profits fom his new lands, the fact that they are taken from his enemy is enough of an advantage.
:bow:
Agreed :)
The blitzer does not care to maximise the profits fom his new lands, the fact that they are taken from his enemy is enough of an advantage.
While I do agree, I think it is more true for central positions (say... Takeda) where you can simultaneously strike multiple opponents than for more isolated positions/strategies where you focus mostly on one rival at a time.
With the Road to Kaga, Mori starts taking Oda out. It may, or may not result in Mori being stronger than, say, Hojo. Hence the temptation to farm Oda's lands.
Thanks for the input, though, I usually consider to increase the taxes (and sometimes can) but I have never dared to lower them. I will do so in my next try :)
Hello TWD,
while you are right that Takeda is in a far better position to blitz, because there are far more ludicrous lands around for the taking, that are less in number and so can be taken faster than say the Mori area, Mori however has another incentive to blitz: his lands are poor. making the assumption that you stop playing aggressively once Oda is out of course leads you to develop the Oda lands, however if you keep playing agressively pushing towards the northeast, taking on Imagawa, then Takeda, then Hojo/Uesugi etc your opponets may never get the chance to challenge you.
For example, take a look at this:
http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/maltz/03_Mori/Mori00.htm
Welcome to the .org TWD.
Looks to be an interesting campaign - keep us updated.
:bow:
Jef Costello
07-16-2010, 21:57
Thanks for the input, though, I usually consider to increase the taxes (and sometimes can) but I have never dared to lower them. I will do so in my next try :)
I never raise the taxes, for fear of rebellion :)
I never raise the taxes, for fear of rebellion :)
I used to be this way too. But with shinobi and perhaps a small garrison I have been able to set the taxes to punative and still have loyalty in all my provinces above 100%. Even in some ungarrisoned provinces. Watch your Diaymo though, don't want him to get killed needlessly, then there might be trouble!
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