Multiplayer Disappointment

[Koga No Goshi]

I am a little bit of a Japanese history buff, and I see the history buffs have taken some flak in other posts, but I'm not here to say the game should be changed to fit history or anything. Here's the prob. In multiplayer, which I've been into for four days now, with only a few noticeable exceptions all the battles have been:

2-8 lines of musketeers
4-12 units of Warrior monks behind them.

Now, this was fun the first few times playing that warrior monk muskets-in-the-rain scenario in SP but it just gets old in MP. The tactics really don't change much, unless the attacker picks rainy weather, which I never see anyone do. (In fact out of five games I entered where rain was the only option, at least one person dropped the game immediately). Now ok, before you all attack, I know there are exceptions based on geography and such. There are a couple of games my archers kicked the crap out of musketeers or I won without monks or musketeers at all. But particularly fighting "better" players or players in the same clan, it's same old same old. Musket lineup with as many monks as there is koku for behind them. What happens is longrange exchange of fire, then monk rush. Doesn't this get old to anyone?

Another question. Anyone notice that even with units protecting the flanks, heavy cavalry seem to rout ULTRA easy? I've had 60 Heavy Cavalry fighting with a friendly unit on either side rout at 58, no general death.



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Goshi of Koga

[Dark Phoenix]

Well I feel the same way as you. I hadnt played Shogun online for 2 months and you come back and every second game is like this. It is not fun at all and when I get on a run of these games it gets really annoying.

With your Heavy Cav problem were there many gun units firing on them at the time and what was the morale of the units on the flanks.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[Vanya]

The solution is simple: just play anybody. On occasion you will come across a great player, or one that uses the above tactic. But most times, you will find those that do not adhere to this norm.

Or, try more 2v2 or higher battles, as the dynamics of allied armies often mutes this mostly 1v1 phenomenon. I dont argue that folks could get this same army in 2v2 or higher... but often you find players that play in such a way that their armies complement each others instead of being clones of each other (at least in those that play together often).

But dont be discouraged... in 2 weeks, the Sea of Sohei will dissipate before the hooves of a new invader...!

[theforce]

It ain't bad as facing 16 monks in a rainy day in green :P

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[Asakura Lord]

I feel the same way. I just started playing online recently and half of my battles were like this. I try and have a good mix of units, and use some strategy and tactics. But it's kind of hard when they just shoot, and charge with their monks. It gets old real quick.

[Obake]

Koga,

Once you start playing many of the more senior players, you will find that most of them use a balanced army rather than the simple monk/musket combo. In fact, most of those same senior players will wipe the combo users right off the field with little effort!

Why you may ask? Because of the flexibility a balanced army offers. What better way to take out large groups of monks than by using Yari Sam or Naginata on hold position/formation to keep them in place while you flank them with your own few units of monks and NoDachi. And I'm sure that just about everybody has at some point suffered the rout of their muskets due to a flank attack by lightning fast Cav units! (and no I'm not referring to the Cav rout tactic)

If you take a look at the true top 100 rather than the top 100 based on honor, I seriously doubt that you would see a single one who uses the gun overload/rush tactic solely.

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Obake

I warned you, but did you listen? Ohh, no...it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

[Dark Phoenix]

Koga if you ever see a player with Doragon at the start of there name they will not use this tactic or any of the major clans for that matter.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[Koga No Goshi]

Thanks for your posts guys, I haven't been playing long so I will keep at it and hope to run into more of what you've been mentioning. Me and two other fairly new guys had been playing with the standard archers/yari/some cavalry with just a few units of monks/nodachi and had basically been routed off the field everytime. I'm surprised how much multiplayer tactics change from single player (don't know about you guys, but I rarely ever saw the computer use muskets at all). I've played Shogun for over a year in SP and thought of myself as pretty good till I tried MP lol.

[Asakura Lord]

Quote Originally posted by Koga No Goshi:
Thanks for your posts guys, I haven't been playing long so I will keep at it and hope to run into more of what you've been mentioning. Me and two other fairly new guys had been playing with the standard archers/yari/some cavalry with just a few units of monks/nodachi and had basically been routed off the field everytime. I'm surprised how much multiplayer tactics change from single player (don't know about you guys, but I rarely ever saw the computer use muskets at all). I've played Shogun for over a year in SP and thought of myself as pretty good till I tried MP lol.

[/QUOTE]

I just started playing online as well, I noticed a big difference in the tactics. I have so far lost all but one of my battle, and I to thought I was pretty good in SP, but I'm getting better with each battle.

[Chirotera]

Koga, and others,

I never had the luxury of thinking I was good in single player, hehe... I jumped right to online play. Either way, I try to stray from the monk/musket combo as much as possible. If I had my choice, I would bring no muskets, (I'm an archer buff) and probably a max of 2 monks. Unfourtunetly, Horses against Tanks didn't seem to work for the Russians. I have taken note of this, and have extended my army to include 3 muskets (no more than 3) and at least 3 monks (usually no more than 3), in an attempt to stay competitive with most other players. I am praying that the expansion will other other units than Monks that will want to be used, and that they tweak the muskets more so they can kill as many as your own men in friendly fire, as they do the enemy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif In any case, stick to it, and for the record, I will be more than willing to fight in a no-musket, few monks battle... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. Just look for me online as....

Amatsu

[evilc]

i only play 1k games now cos of those monk battles, anyway just shoot at them, and you'll have more men so flank them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

1k games rock, they're over in 10 mins and no monk rushers, anyone who tries it ends up in a bloody heap at my feet http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

of course, you might get ashigaru rusher, but they run like flies if you concentrate on 1 unit with 2/3 of yours.

[Asakura Lord]

that's the easiest way to take the numbers of the monks down, using archers on them. I send in a unit or two of cav archers and bring their numbers down.

[Yoko Kono]

The most effective way to deal with monk-musk armies is to bring cav
A 5k army with 2 yari cav, 2 cav arch and 1 heavy cav will wipe the smiles off these combo players
They simply will not have the yari to cope with ur cav AND ur own compliment of 3-4 guns, a few YS and some shock troops
Many players seem to neglect the benefits of cav and fail to realize how effective they can be when utilized properly
A well timed charge with Yari cav can give a charge bonus of up to +20 and can often turn the tide of battle in an apparently hopeless situation

[shingenmitch2]

KOGA -- You will always find monk rushers, but if you play battles at 5000 koku or there abouts, the games will always be more fun. Ballanced armies work best at this amount and monk rushers can almost always be defeated.

Muskets are used more in multiplayer than by the computer in Campaign because there is no "Tech Tree" It takes a long time and investment to get muskets in the campaingn. In multiplayer it's only 175! (for Honor2). I agree as well that monks are a bit unbalanced in the game as a whole, But play battles at 5k and a good army will not be more than 5-6 monks or 4-5 muskets.

[Asakura Lord]

I agree the right use and placement of cav can do some serious damage to your opponent, especially if you attack from their side or rear.

Also why do some people have battles with over 10,000 koku? that would just seem a little to much.

[Dunhill]

You can at times ask players for musk monk limits, usually only in friendlies though.

However, the advice to include cavalry, and have a mixed army does seem to work. I hardly ever bring more than 2 monks 2 musk and 2 NDs. This seems to work well enough, but I can have problems when facing an all-out rush from an army of 16 NDs, or the musk monk line-up when used by a pro.

However, I don't see many rushers in the Honour society, and I would suggest you get the list of these players and learn some of thier names. I now make it common practice to have a look at the list and make player choices accordingly.

Cheers, and if I see you online, I'll play comps with musk/monk limits, whatever you want.

[Koga No Goshi]

I'm starting to be able to counter the musket/monk army strategy a bit better, thanks to a lot of the advice here. I'm also starting to see the truth in what someone said earlier that perhaps the better players don't use musket/monk armies so much. I say that because really I don't see much strategy to what the musket/monk guys do. They move the muskets in line, let them decimate the enemy missle troops, and then make a general monk charge all across the line. The guys who work with yari samurai with any combination of a few cavalry, shock troops, etc., are a lot tricker I'm noticing. Tonight I beat a musket/monk rush with an equal amount of yari samurai to his monks, with +1 honor to each with the extra money, and some archers. When the monks came, the yari samurai behind the archers hit 'em face to face in hold formation while two yari samurai on each flank moved around and slammed in. Worked well. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Thanks for the advice guys.

However, even if this strategy isn't "invincible" (the musket-monk thing I mean) I still look forward to finding people to play with who won't make me have to counter it every game. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Variety is good.




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Goshi of Koga

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Koga No Goshi:
...I rarely ever saw the computer use muskets at all...[/QUOTE]

I've had to face an Oda army that had (yikes!) 7 arquebusiers and 1 musketeer, plus a mix of other assorted troops... A real bummer when they attack you on a clear day and you have no guns of your own 'cause you bitch-slapped the Portuguese fella and you have mostly peasant rabble to man the defenses!

It has happened to me... Oda seems pretty fond of the papist yoke... I rarely seen a different clan field guns in SP...

[Yoko Kono]

I have never seen the computer field christian guns ever in SP
I have seen guns only very rarely, dutch guns, but usually my games end around the time the dutch arrive so i am always the only christian shooting my way across japan

I have seen Takeda and Oda go christian a few times but they never seemed to build trading posts so had no guns, perhaps a future patch could make guns more appealing to the AI

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Look for old blackwatch on line.

We dont use monks or muskets and we play the low koku games.

Likewise, we dont use "attacker" or "defender". We usually play on a map with a village and use the Last Man Standing rules.

Boy, talk about mental exercises http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif !

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// Black
// "Did we win?"

[evilc]

low koku rules, less monks, more tactics

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by evilc:
low koku rules, less monks, more tactics[/QUOTE]

The lower the koku, the more guns. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif Since gunpowder and shot was very very expensive in this period in Japan, combined with the fact that muskets have the capacity to rout any unit including monks and heavy cav, I think the price should be upp'd. As it is, in large koku games there's more than enough money to throw some high honor muskets in, and in low koku games, it's one of the most affordable units. Sometimes ya can't win. Unless you choose rain. hehe.



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Goshi of Koga

[Koga No Goshi]

Can anyone recommend a good strategy for breaking through a musket line with monks behind it, maybe some yari too? Sometimes it's harder in 2v2 because if both defenders (or attackers) consolidate their monks and musket lines, it's hard to flank and you can't do much but hit head on. I can charge into the musket line I suppose, cav would just rout and if I do it with all my assault troops what happens is if they don't rout, they're tied up fighting the muskets and/or the archers or yari samurai right behind them while the monks surge forward and have the freedom to hit flanks, rears, etc. Anyone recommend anything for this type of setup?



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Goshi of Koga

[DarkSword]

hehehe...koga m8,

I think this is what we are all looking for but to find out a way to beat them, i think you should keep playing and vary your tactics until you find something that works....people have different styles
one army is good for one person doesn't mean it will work for the other....goodluck Paul!!!!

[Koga No Goshi]

Hey "DarkSword", you demented Ashigaru, don't forget I can still rout your senior butt! Except when Rathan's on your team, hehe.




> http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Goshi of Koga

[evilc]

if the other player has loads of muskets on a low koku game, thats better than them having loads of monks.

muskets are not exactly a problem, they are simply the worst h-2-h unit, all you have to do is get near to them.

if i play against an army of maybe half muskets, i kill the h-2-h units (there would have to be less of them) then i turn on the muskets and they run like i was chasing them myself http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by evilc (edited 06-17-2001).]

[NagaoKagetora]

hey Koga!!
when i come up against a long line of musks i am often daunted by the sight! but i remind myself that musks are basically Ashigaru!! Therefore i sometimes try to concentrate my own missle fire on one particular enemy musk unit! Thus that has a nasty effect on that units morale and consequently the rest of his fellow gunweilding peasants! Good flanking manovers at this point can often lead to the entire line turning heal and running.

KenchiKagetora

[evilc]

as i always say, musket men are pants, they die easily, no-one should be scared of musket men if their force is balanced

[Kraellin]

koga,

might i suggest the use of the custom games in single player. the ai wont give you as good a fight as us human types, but it can be a decent teaching aide at times for things like you're talking about.

play as the defender so that you can deploy as you would in a multi game and give your enemy a monk/gun army and experiment. then turn it around and give yourself one. seeing things from both sides can be a great help in figuring out how to manage any unit type or army configuration.

the true test is of course multi. find a friend who is willing to play you friendlies and willing to experiment with you. play attacker and defender in the same manner as above.

K.

[Koga No Goshi]

I actually have been experimenting a great deal in multiplayer to come up with a good anti-musket/monk(or nodachi) army counter, and have had some successes. I've also just come up with a good way in low koku games of eliminating his muskets from the picture and keeping mine in. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Provided, of course, he doesn't have 8 muskets and only 2 or so hth units. But that wouldn't be as hard anyway.



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Goshi of Koga

[Conquistador]

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[This message has been edited by Conquistador (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Conquistador]

I hope the expansion pack may simulate the following:

1. Ranged units become more accurate.
2. MU costs 225, and AR costs 125.
3. Guns run out of ammo 30% faster.
4. Cavalry is tired slower and recharges faster.
5. The first line of Cavalry archers can fire arrows while marching if it is in fire at will mode....it should have been.
6. Heavy Cavalry gains initiative, which means they gain a +3 bonus vs non-yari samurai troops that is not ordered an attack to it.
7. Heavy Cavalry +1 attack
8. No-Dachi +1 attack.
9. Impetuous peasant +2 attack, releasing their potential.
10. General gains honor faster than his colleagues, becoz he's a genius.
11. yari samurai +1 attack on hold formation
12. Naginatas costs 400.
13. Naginatas +1 arrow-resitant armor, +1 defense vs Cavalry charge.
14. Yari Cavalry +1 attack vs foot archers.


If all fail, I would recommend this all-round army:
5 mo
2 ys
2 sa
3 mu
2 ca
1 hc
1 yc

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I ride to fire to conquer.

[Yoko Kono]

Originally posted by Conquistador:
I hope the expansion pack may simulate the following:

1. Ranged units become more accurate.

Making guns and bows more accurate would seriously undermine the effectiveness of H2H units and make rushing all the more common
Shogun would deteriorate into huge gun/ arrow battles

2. MU costs 225, and AR costs 125.

Guns are priced according to their relative values
While a gun may be cheaper than a bow, it takes substantially longer to train someone to fire a bow with any degree of accuracy at all, while a gun can be learned in hours or days at most

3. Guns run out of ammo 30% faster.

Why? archers have lots of arrows they just have a faster fire rate and lead balls take up very little room
If i were a teppo soldier i would pack myself full of lead

4. Cavalry is tired slower and recharges faster.

I agree cavalry do tend to tire fast even when walking, while IRL cav could outmarch infantry by a long walk in terms of of who tires first

5. The first line of Cavalry archers can fire arrows while marching if it is in fire at will mode....it should have been.

All trained samurai on horseback were masters of the bow, it was a prized skill the ability to ride and fire with accuracy.
Why not include it into the game?

6. Heavy Cavalry gains initiative, which means they gain a +3 bonus vs non-yari samurai troops that is not ordered an attack to it.

? im not sure what u mean, but cavalry already receive the greatest flanking bonuses

7. Heavy Cavalry +1 attack

Heavy cav are one of the most effective units in the game if used correctly and increasing their effectiveness may unbalance the game

8. No-Dachi +1 attack.

Dachi and Monks can cut thru anything with relative ease increasing their attack would serve no purpase

9. Impetuous peasant +2 attack, releasing their potential.

eh?

10. General gains honor faster than his colleagues, becoz he's a genius.

erm
what makes u think practise makes perfect quicker for a commander than for a soldier?

11. yari samurai +1 attack on hold formation

Yari should have increased defence due to the wall of spears, if anything their attack when on hold should be reduced for fear of leaving gaps in the `wall`

12. Naginatas costs 400.

yep sounds fair

13. Naginatas +1 arrow-resitant armor, +1 defense vs Cavalry charge.

i agree bout the armour but nags already stand up very well to cav

14. Yari Cavalry +1 attack vs foot archers.

Definately, with only a short sword as defence ALL cav should be more effective against archers

[This message has been edited by Yoko Kono (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Conquistador]

this is a double
[This message has been edited by Conquistador (edited 06-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Conquistador (edited 06-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Conquistador (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Conquistador]

Quote Originally posted by Yoko Kono:
Originally posted by Conquistador:
I hope the expansion pack may simulate the following:

1. Ranged units become more accurate.

Making guns and bows more accurate would seriously undermine the effectiveness of H2H units and make rushing all the more common
Shogun would deteriorate into huge gun/ arrow battles



I would think it that way. Rushing would be less effective so it will fail more easily. If ranged units are improved, why would you go rushing instead? The possibility of ranged war I will explain later.


2. MU costs 225, and AR costs 125.

Guns are priced according to their relative values
While a gun may be cheaper than a bow, it takes substantially longer to train someone to fire a bow with any degree of accuracy at all, while a gun can be learned in hours or days at most


I would agree but not on the cost.
I compare the gun with the yari type.
Since yari is so popular in that age, the training fee should be thought of lower than the original fee. Another reason for that is guns are much expensive and it's a scarcity at that time.

3. Guns run out of ammo 30% faster.

Why? archers have lots of arrows they just have a faster fire rate and lead balls take up very little room
If i were a teppo soldier i would pack myself full of lead


I got impressed by the enemy at the gates that guns are still scarcity. And each soldiers are supplied with limited amount of bullets, so what should it be at that age of japan? Adding to the improved accuracy, i would like to lower the ammo.


4. Cavalry is tired slower and recharges faster.

I agree cavalry do tend to tire fast even when walking, while IRL cav could outmarch infantry by a long walk in terms of of who tires first


That's quite all about.

5. The first line of Cavalry archers can fire arrows while marching if it is in fire at will mode....it should have been.

All trained samurai on horseback were masters of the bow, it was a prized skill the ability to ride and fire with accuracy.
Why not include it into the game?


Maybe all of them can fire when moving, but this would lead to easy friendly fire, especially when they're moving fast. see my reason?

6. Heavy Cavalry gains initiative, which means they gain a +3 bonus vs non-yari samurai troops that is not ordered an attack to it.

? im not sure what u mean, but cavalry already receive the greatest flanking bonuses


Put it this way.
In ancient battle, how cavalry really works is mainly about their initiative. The fast cavalry didn't give the foot soldier a chance to defend while taking his head on the charge.

7. Heavy Cavalry +1 attack

Heavy cav are one of the most effective units in the game if used correctly and increasing their effectiveness may unbalance the game


Unfortuantely, we found that heavy cavalry sometimes loses to warrior monk. I would really suggest a guaranteed win for them. Doesn't it also limit the favour of heavy monk?

8. No-Dachi +1 attack.

Dachi and Monks can cut thru anything with relative ease increasing their attack would serve no purpase


It is mainly to give a bonus to no-dachi, making it tougher against HC. btw, isn't historically correct that no-dach is excellent troop-type? I wonder.

Also given that they require legendary swordmen event.

9. Impetuous peasant +2 attack, releasing their potential.

eh?


Let me express it better. What I mean is, normal peasans are very unwilling to fight, impetuous peasants are more willing to fight.
Fighting with heart should give them more power. The other reason is that I want to give bonus to peasants when they can fight impetously since most of the time they only rout. It should cause a popular effect in low koku match.

10. General gains honor faster than his colleagues, becoz he's a genius.

erm
what makes u think practise makes perfect quicker for a commander than for a soldier?


Ok, screw this.

11. yari samurai +1 attack on hold formation

Yari should have increased defence due to the wall of spears, if anything their attack when on hold should be reduced for fear of leaving gaps in the `wall`


I would agree to add that to the defense instead

12. Naginatas costs 400.

yep sounds fair

13. Naginatas +1 arrow-resitant armor, +1 defense vs Cavalry charge.

i agree bout the armour but nags already stand up very well to cav

14. Yari Cavalry +1 attack vs foot archers.

Definately, with only a short sword as defence ALL cav should be more effective against archers

[This message has been edited by Yoko Kono (edited 06-20-2001).][/QUOTE]

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I ride to fire to conquer.

[This message has been edited by Conquistador (edited 06-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Conquistador (edited 06-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Conquistador (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Koga No Goshi]

I agree that musket and arquebus ammo should be decreased. Reason? Because as it is, they almost never ever run out in a single Mplayer battle. Can you imagine how "unbalanced" it would be if it were the case with archers? Given, archers do more damage faster. That's why they run out in what, 15 volleys, less? The reason (historically) that musket units should not be so cheap has nothing to do with the training, it has to do with the fact that in this time period guns are still novelties for the rich and very very expensive imports. In Shogun, their low price encourages you to have tons of them to fill out the ranks-- why not? They're dirt cheap. In real history only the largest lords could field relatively small contingents of gun troops, and the limit of powder and shot was always an issue, not a non-issue as it is in MP games. The other reason they should be more expensive is the fact that even units they are too far away to target which are behind the unit they're shooting at get damaged by stray musket shots (does this really make sense to anyone? If they're too far away to hit on purpose, how can you hit them accidentally?) and with virtually unlimited ammo can just wear down your entire h2h army to half strength or less, with enough time. Why pay 2-3x as much for an archer who does less damage and runs out faster? They should also be more expensive because of the morale damage factor. Despite arguments I've read on this board to the contrary, I think I'd be just as likely to run away if I was charging an enemy line of archers and the guy right next to me flops over when an arrow thuds through his eye socket and sprays me with blood. LOL. So either morale damage should be similar between mass archers and mass guns or else guns should cost more by all accounts, historically and game balance-wise. If you're against a good player who has you outgunned, you're kinda screwed because on the one hand, a rush or charge is a ticket to routing, and on the other, waiting for him to attack first means waiting through five min of gun pelting or more that eventually wears down even your rear units. (I've had YS, ND, MK, even Naginatas even in the back row worn down to like 29ish by guns).

[Koga No Goshi]

I agree that musket and arquebus ammo should be decreased. Reason? Because as it is, they almost never ever run out in a single Mplayer battle. Can you imagine how "unbalanced" it would be if it were the case with archers? Given, archers do more damage faster. That's why they run out in what, 15 volleys, less? The reason (historically) that musket units should not be so cheap has nothing to do with the training, it has to do with the fact that in this time period guns are still novelties for the rich and very very expensive imports. In Shogun, their low price encourages you to have tons of them to fill out the ranks-- why not? They're dirt cheap. In real history only the largest lords could field relatively small contingents of gun troops, and the limit of powder and shot was always an issue, not a non-issue as it is in MP games. The other reason they should be more expensive is the fact that even units they are too far away to target which are behind the unit they're shooting at get damaged by stray musket shots (does this really make sense to anyone? If they're too far away to hit on purpose, how can you hit them accidentally?) and with virtually unlimited ammo can just wear down your entire h2h army to half strength or less, with enough time. Why pay 2-3x as much for an archer who does less damage and runs out faster? They should also be more expensive because of the morale damage factor. Despite arguments I've read on this board to the contrary, I think I'd be just as likely to run away if I was charging an enemy line of archers and the guy right next to me flops over when an arrow thuds through his eye socket and sprays me with blood. LOL. So either morale damage should be similar between mass archers and mass guns or else guns should cost more by all accounts, historically and game balance-wise. If you're against a good player who has you outgunned, you're kinda screwed because on the one hand, a rush or charge is a ticket to routing, and on the other, waiting for him to attack first means waiting through five min of gun pelting or more that eventually wears down even your rear units. (I've had YS, ND, MK, even Naginatas even in the back row worn down to like 29ish by guns).

Cavalry right now are too expensive in MP games for the effect they bring. I'm not going to bring a 400-600 koku unit the enemy can counter with a 200 koku unit (yari) and which is only any good against monks and nodachi if it catches them in a lucky rear charge (and doesn't rout in the process). For Cavalry to be worth their while in MP games, either their morale and damage has to be slightly raised or else their cost lowered, as it is they are not practical except in huge huge koku games. Something as small as making HC stronger against monks (they'd have to be stronger, not just exactly equal, since not only are they mounted but also more expensive) would make more balance in the game methinks. (And this would draw complaints but c'mon, is 1/2 your army being warrior monks really "balanced"? If they did this armies would use fewer monks and more cavalry, if anything you'd be seeing more balanced armies in the field).



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Goshi of Koga
Now we disappear,
Well, what must we think of it?
From the sky we came.
Now we may go back again.
That's at least one point of view.
-Hojo Ujimasa's seppekku poem.

[Conquistador]

Version 2

Possible changes:
1. Ranged units become more accurate.
2. MU costs 225, and AR costs 125.
3. Guns run out of ammo 30% faster.
4. Cavalry takes longer to tire and shorter to recharge.
5. Cavalry archers can actually shoot while moving.
6. Heavy Cavalry gains +2 initiative attack over foot troops when it is not under melee-attacked. (Best for against ranged foot troops, then foot troops)
7. Heavy Cavalry +1 attack
8. No-Dachi +1 attack.
9. Impetuous peasant +2 attack.
10. yari samurai +1 defense on hold formation
11. Naginatas costs 400.
12. Naginatas +1 arrow-resitant armor, +1 defense vs Cavalry charge.
13. Yari Cavalry +1 attack vs foot archers.


Effects:
Ranged units are generaly improved.
Guns are slightly level down.
Cavalry units are generally improved, especially against archers.
Monk is level down.
No-dachi and yari troops are slightly level up.
Naginata is level up.

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I ride to fire to conquer.