View Full Version : So, I am the only one thinking things are going downhill in Europe?
Meneldil
05-02-2010, 20:57
I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.
I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big vulgarisms. And so does my bro.
Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.
Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".
We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.
I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.
It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.
And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.
My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.
As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist":dizzy2:. Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.:shame:
Strike For The South
05-02-2010, 21:04
Wahh Wahh The brown people are here and they are scary wahh wahh
If they are scum let them be scum and if they impede your daily life pop them in the nose.
Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.
I am from a basically "all-white" part of England. So the vast majority of people I know are indeed "white". However, all the 'foriengers' including arab-looking people, are all either Health Professionals (Doctors, Nurses, etc) which I know from work, or University Students which I know from University.
The thing is, they are basically all very nice people. I get on great with them with no issues at all. All the colours of the rainbow, I know people from Singapore, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Caribean, America, South America, China, Europe, etc etc.
On the otherhand, there are the "white-English" I know... loud bad mouthed drunks, fighting eachother outside of night clubs, sexual harrasment akin to what you said being done, not all of them are chavs either, as those are generally around the council states, the average one is pretty much like that. The women have people like "Jordan" as their idol, who pretty much are just like what you said that arab man says. It is a disgusting horrid pit of moral perversion. Obviously, not everyone like this, as you say yourself, but I would argue the ones not like that are a minority.
So on one-hand, there is this nice well-mannered Arabian health professional/student (male or female) compared to the average "white-English" duct-tape dressed female who's version of manners is burping after taking a swig of laeger or male who thinks chat-up lines akin to "do you have a mirror in your [female undergarments]? I can see myself in there" is civilised behaviour.
So I don't think it is anything to do with genes or race.
I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.
I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big twats. And so does my bro.
Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.
Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".
We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.
I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.
It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.
And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.
My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.
As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist":dizzy2:. Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.:shame:
It's not really racism until you tie it down to the concept of "race". As for propaganda, yeah, I think we are surrounded by it all the time, and it goes both ways. I don't know if things go downhill, but they change for sure. In Oslo, "native" pupils will soon be a minority (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fnyheter%2Fdistrikt%2Fostlandssendingen%2F1.7045638&sl=no&tl=en).
Strike For The South
05-02-2010, 21:34
Ok all kidding aside, why is this so bothersome?
People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-02-2010, 21:34
Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.
I am from a basically "all-white" part of England. So the vast majority of people I know are indeed "white". However, all the 'foriengers' including arab-looking people, are all either Health Professionals (Doctors, Nurses, etc) which I know from work, or University Students which I know from University.
The thing is, they are basically all very nice people. I get on great with them with no issues at all. All the colours of the rainbow, I know people from Singapore, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Caribean, America, South America, China, Europe, etc etc.
On the otherhand, there are the "white-English" I know... loud bad mouthed drunks, fighting eachother outside of night clubs, sexual harrasment akin to what you said being done, not all of them are chavs either, as those are generally around the council states, the average one is pretty much like that. The women have people like "Jordan" as their idol, who pretty much are just like what you said that arab man says. It is a disgusting horrid pit of moral perversion. Obviously, not everyone like this, as you say yourself, but I would argue the ones not like that are a minority.
So on one-hand, there is this nice well-mannered Arabian health professional/student (male or female) compared to the average "white-English" duct-tape dressed female who's version of manners is burping after taking a swig of laeger or male who thinks chat-up lines akin to "do you have a mirror in your [female undergarments]? I can see myself in there" is civilised behaviour.
So I don't think it is anything to do with genes or race.
Where abouts are you Beskar, in the North of England, I think?
In the South West the situation in much more like what Melendil describes, though not as extreme. I live (as EVERYBODY should know by now) in the Cathedral City of Exeter. This is a (relatively) wealthy and peaceful city, it is also a city housing an excellent university whose students make up around 10% of the population.
We have three social problems of varying severity:
Chavs
Arab Muslims from rich backgrounds
Fundamentalist Christians
More or less in that order. Of the three, the Christians are really only a problem for other Christians, and mostly on an individual harrassment basis. The Chavs are the cause of several rapes and violent attacks each year, mostly of 18 year old female students who walk down dark alleys because they think they are safe in the city. The Arabs are just an almighty nusience, they drink and smoke huge amounts of hash, play music at all hours and have disgusting personal habits. They also trwat white women as whores or servants.
I was unfortunate enough to have to live with one one year, after about 5 months of complaining the university kicked him out of Halls. His room had to be deep cleaned, to the tune of several hundred pounds.
This is all in a small city with a small immigrant/non-white population. In London and the South East I gather, from friends and relatives, the situation is FAR worse.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-02-2010, 21:36
Ok all kidding aside, why is this so bothersome?
People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?
It's an issue because the immigrants are the ones causing all the problems. When a segmant of society, most of whom have arrived in the last 50 years, is responsible for so much unrest then the natural inclination is tto want to surgically remove them. Especially in Europe, where space and resources are extremely limited.
As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?
But do they?
Strike For The South
05-02-2010, 21:40
It's an issue because the immigrants are the ones causing all the problems. When a segmant of society, most of whom have arrived in the last 50 years, is responsible for so much unrest then the natural inclination is tto want to surgically remove them. Especially in Europe, where space and resources are extremely limited.
Yall invited them in the firstplace no?
You need them don't you?
Excuse any ignorance but it seems like reactionary nativism
But do they?
It is your job to be the vanguard and pass on the ideals. Do work
Sasaki Kojiro
05-02-2010, 21:41
It's not really racism until you tie it down to the concept of "race".
Exactly. It's not racism in the OP, it's just the equivalent of disliking "chavs" or whatever they're called, in England.
Where abouts are you Beskar, in the North of England, I think?
That is correct. (North West)
In the South West the situation in much more like what Melendil describes, though not as extreme. I live (as EVERYBODY should know by now) in the Cathedral City of Exeter. This is a (relatively) wealthy and peaceful city, it is also a city housing an excellent university whose students make up around 10% of the population.
We have three social problems of varying severity:
Chavs
Arab Muslims from rich backgrounds
Fundamentalist Christians
More or less in that order. Of the three, the Christians are really only a problem for other Christians, and mostly on an individual harrassment basis. The Chavs are the cause of several rapes and violent attacks each year, mostly of 18 year old female students who walk down dark alleys because they think they are safe in the city. The Arabs are just an almighty nusience, they drink and smoke huge amounts of hash, play music at all hours and have disgusting personal habits. They also trwat white women as whores or servants.
I was unfortunate enough to have to live with one one year, after about 5 months of complaining the university kicked him out of Halls. His room had to be deep cleaned, to the tune of several hundred pounds.
This is all in a small city with a small immigrant/non-white population. In London and the South East I gather, from friends and relatives, the situation is FAR worse.
The biggest issue here are the chavs. They are the cause of gang-violence, violent attacks, drunken behaviour and everything. The minorities are basically NHS employees or Students. The minorities cause no issues at all. The immigration in the area is basically polish, so a lot of ****sky's (stars represent their surnames seem to all end with 'sky'/'ski') around here, but historically, the immigration here used to come from Scotland.
Yeah, I heard from people that in Burnley and Manchester, they have some issues, but in "my part of the world" as it were, it is not the case. So it is really weird for me to even accept the racism, as I don't see it, and where I do see this alleged behaviour, it is the "whites".
You need them don't you?
What are they needed for exactly? :inquisitive:
It is your job to be the vanguard and pass on the ideals. Do work
The key is that many might just have different ideals, and that they'll naturally not surrender those that easily.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-02-2010, 21:52
That is correct. (North West)
The biggest issue here are the chavs. They are the cause of gang-violence, violent attacks, drunken behaviour and everything. The minorities are basically NHS employees or Students. The minorities cause no issues at all. The immigration in the area is basically polish, so a lot of ****sky's (stars represent their surnames seem to all end with 'sky'/'ski') around here, but historically, the immigration here used to come from Scotland.
Yeah, I heard from people that in Burnley and Manchester, they have some issues, but in "my part of the world" as it were, it is not the case. So it is really weird for me to even accept the racism, as I don't see it, and where I do see this alleged behaviour, it is the "whites".
Yes, I suppose then that your lower class white demographic is mostly ex-industrial-without-hope. That's a problem with the North, and Thatcher's "amputation" of certain industries. Conversely, the poor in my area are general rural farmers, or ex-light industry (glove making used to be big near my home-town).
All this means we have different demographics and sub-cultures. Although, we do have those sorts of "white" chav in Plymouth.
Strike For The South
05-02-2010, 21:52
What are they needed for exactly? :inquisitive:
J-O-B-S
At least that is the impression I have always been under
The key is that many might just have different ideals, and that they'll naturally not surrender those that easily.
No one ever said it would be easy but it doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and send the browns back because they are incompatibile.
Assimlations has its pains but also can reap rewards
J-O-B-S
At least that is the impression I have always been under
I am not under that impression, though I am ready to be enlightened. I always thought that the immigration was due to altruism, sort of.
No one ever said it would be easy but it doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and send the browns back because they are incompatibile.
Assimlations has its pains but also can reap rewards
Remember that bigger countries got greater momentum than smaller ones, watch those percents.
Tellos Athenaios
05-02-2010, 22:50
Not here anyway. The J-O-B-S migrants are mainly Polish these days and only stay on temporary. They can drive back to Poland in about a day, so essentially they hire a room, stay a few months and work for a salary that's much larger they ordinarily would make, then they go back to Poland and spend the remainder there. This is even more noticeable in SE-England than it is in the Netherlands because in the Netherlands there is more of a minimum wage going on (so those jobs are as often taken up by other groups as well).
Rhyfelwyr
05-02-2010, 22:58
The sources of immigration for Scotland seems to be a bit different. I can count the number of black people I've seen in RL on one hand. I've also seen very few Arabs, although where I live there are lots of Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants, and in other parts of Scotland there are a lot of Poles.
I can't say there have been any real problems with these groups, not on a national scale, or from personal experience. The local Paki's (corner shop for those wondering) was run by as nice a guy as you could hope to meet. On a wider scale, I also don't think there have been problems along the lines of those mentioned with Arabs, but then I guess they are different cultures.
The Polish are generally regarded as good, honest hard workers. The only problem is they tend to support Celtic. :whip:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-02-2010, 23:21
Yall invited them in the firstplace no?
No, not unless you count the Afro-Carribeans who came over after WWII, and are not a part of the current problem. Most of the reaction today is against Africans and Arabs who have migrated in the last 20 years or so, being either 1st or 3rd generation.
You need them don't you?
Not at all, all they do is undercut the native work force.
This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.
This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.
Actually, there is plenty of room in the East of Europe, it is just that all those from the East of Europe and out of Europe all seem to want to magically come to England.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-02-2010, 23:52
Actually, there is plenty of room in the East of Europe, it is just that all those from the East of Europe and out of Europe all seem to want to magically come to England.
Plenty of room in Wales too.....
Especially since she seems to be in a terminal strop and isn't talking to me any more.
I'd say things are improving, but as I am getting older so do the people I meet. Don't feel bad because you can see what's right in front of you, and there are problems with muslim/arab youths, people who will just dismiss that annoy me somewhat. Don't worry you are not a racist, those are the people saying they are all scum.
PanzerJaeger
05-03-2010, 00:21
This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.
The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.
I think the issue has more to do with poverty and a lack of social mobility, more than anything else. I, like Beskar, come from The North, and I come from a particularly white part of it. There were no non white kids at my primary school, there must have been no more than six non-white kids at my secondary school, out of a student body of 1,500, and there are maybe a few more at my college, which is of a similar size.
And yet, there is a pervasive, all-encompassing fear of immigrants, and immigration. Never mind the fact that immigration is negligible in my community. Never mind the fact that immigrants have a (general) economic benefit to the nation. Never mind the countless statistics that prove that immigrants are less likely to cause crime, put less strain on public services etc. It is so utterly out of proportion that it cannot be called anything other than how Gordon Brown called it, bigotry.
I wanted to post some more thoughts, but I'm very tired
This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.
The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.
uh-huh, now am I so smart that I see it earlier or am I clumsy because I say it earlier? OP shows how suffocating the social control of the leftist church can be. Poor guy is getting doubts.
Megas Methuselah
05-03-2010, 02:09
Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.
Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.
Strike For The South
05-03-2010, 02:10
This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.
The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.
What is the real problem?
I agree there ethnicity gives them no special priviliges, however the European welfare state/though police has given them those priviliges. They've kind of dug there own grave
Not at all, all they do is undercut the native work force.
This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.
Well they are here, and you probably wont be kicking out 3rd gens so Europe is going to have to learn how to deal
Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.
Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.
I can't stress how much you're stuck with me
Megas Methuselah
05-03-2010, 02:14
I can't stress how much you're stuck with me
I try my best to love you and your family and your people, but... it's SOOO hard.
Strike For The South
05-03-2010, 02:17
I try my best to love you and your family and your people, but... it's SOOO hard.
My people?
I have no people I represent myself
Seamus Fermanagh
05-03-2010, 04:19
I think the issue has more to do with poverty and a lack of social mobility, more than anything else. I, like Beskar, come from The North, and I come from a particularly white part of it. There were no non white kids at my primary school, there must have been no more than six non-white kids at my secondary school, out of a student body of 1,500, and there are maybe a few more at my college, which is of a similar size.
A college of 1500 people? I saw single classes at the University of Texas that were nearly half that size.
Seamus Fermanagh
05-03-2010, 04:22
Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.
Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.
Interesting idea. Perhaps you can get some pointers from the Carthaginians or the Almohads....
PanzerJaeger
05-03-2010, 05:07
Almohads....
Such a great faction! European armor with CAMELS!
I think the issue has more to do with poverty and a lack of social mobility, more than anything else. I, like Beskar, come from The North, and I come from a particularly white part of it. There were no non white kids at my primary school, there must have been no more than six non-white kids at my secondary school, out of a student body of 1,500, and there are maybe a few more at my college, which is of a similar size.
And yet, there is a pervasive, all-encompassing fear of immigrants, and immigration. Never mind the fact that immigration is negligible in my community. Never mind the fact that immigrants have a (general) economic benefit to the nation. Never mind the countless statistics that prove that immigrants are less likely to cause crime, put less strain on public services etc. It is so utterly out of proportion that it cannot be called anything other than how Gordon Brown called it, bigotry.
There are lies, bold lies and leftist truths. Fear huh, well drilled
Meneldil
05-03-2010, 07:25
People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?
That's precisely the issue, the people I'm talking about, who make up the most vocal - if not the most numerous - part of African immigration don't want to mix, don't give a damn about the so-called "Western values" and despise french and white people.
Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.
That's fine for you. I don't have problems with the brown immigrants who work hard and behave like any normal person (that is, as long as they don't suddenly become muslim nutjobs at some point, which seems to be another weird developement of late). Sad part is, anytime I meet one of them, I'm puzzled. Because that's a rare sight.
I live in Southern France, in Montpellier. The city (like most of the South) is known for its high unemployement, poverty and crime rate. And weirdly, it is also know for its huge arab population. The same goes for most of the towns with many colored people: Toulouse, Marseilles, Strasbourg, Paris suburban area...
Yall invited them in the firstplace no?
You need them don't you?
No and no. My state invited their parents and grandparents, before I was born. At a time when Western Europe was desperately looking for people willing to do the dirty works. Nowadays, unemployement has skyrocked, and we certainly do not need anymore people to feed and to welfare-ize.
And yet, there is a pervasive, all-encompassing fear of immigrants, and immigration. Never mind the fact that immigration is negligible in my community. Never mind the fact that immigrants have a (general) economic benefit to the nation. Never mind the countless statistics that prove that immigrants are less likely to cause crime, put less strain on public services etc. It is so utterly out of proportion that it cannot be called anything other than how Gordon Brown called it, bigotry.
Care to enlighten me with your sources? In France, Arabs and Blacks make up for 60% of the people in prison, while only being ~15% of the country's population. Less likely to cause crime my ass. As for the positive effect on national economies, I'm more than willing to see your sources. Until then, I'll scream bollox.
Even if it were the case, so what? I don't give a damn about the positive economical aspects of a population that generally hates me, hates my family, hates my culture and my country and think it has a historical entitlement to do so.
You can throw all the lame excuses regarding these population lack of will to integrate: racism, colonialism, economical exploitation in the 60's, worldwide victimization of muslims... I don't give a crap. I wasn't there in the 60's, never asked them to come, I'm not an Israeli colon in Cisjordania. I protested against racism and intolerance, and what did I get in return? Scorn and hatred from the very same people I thought I was helping. So scorn and hatred is what they shall expect from me now.
a completely inoffensive name
05-03-2010, 07:30
Why don't you just make it a requirement to become a citizen if you are to legally immigrate to France or wherever. I assume in the citizenship process you must learn the cultures history and western ideals. At least make it obvious upfront that this is way we operate and this is our culture that you must behave to it if you want to live with us. Dont just say hey thanks for coming here from Algeria and then treat them with hostility 24/7 when they go about living like an Algerian and not a French.
Furunculus
05-03-2010, 08:22
I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.
I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big vulgarisms. And so does my bro.
Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.
Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".
We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.
I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.
It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.
And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.
My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.
As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist":dizzy2:. Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.:shame:
what you describe is a direct consequence of:
too much non-assimilated immigration breeding fear and contempt from 'swamped' locals.
too great an attempt to strip people of their national identity by coercing them to become 'european' which leads to zenophobia.
i have repeatedly said, and stand by the absolute truth of, the fact that the EU,s ultimate goal of creating a stable and liberal europe free from political extremism and war, will be a victim of the methods that federalists think will bring about this goal. i.e. ever deeper union.
europe achieved its best possible outcome before masttrict, everything since has been a retrograde step from the point of view of its first goal, the project should have stopped their. then we would not be having STUPID arguments about whether turkey is 'european' to be admitted.
it is that simple!
Banquo's Ghost
05-03-2010, 12:13
what you describe is a direct consequence of:
too much non-assimilated immigration breeding fear and contempt from 'swamped' locals.
too great an attempt to strip people of their national identity by coercing them to become 'european' which leads to zenophobia.
i have repeatedly said, and stand by the absolute truth of, the fact that the EU,s ultimate goal of creating a stable and liberal europe free from political extremism and war, will be a victim of the methods that federalists think will bring about this goal. i.e. ever deeper union.
europe achieved its best possible outcome before masttrict, everything since has been a retrograde step from the point of view of its first goal, the project should have stopped their. then we would not be having STUPID arguments about whether turkey is 'european' to be admitted.
it is that simple!
I don't agree that it is simply a matter of European policy. Sentiments like Menedil's have been expressed about outsiders for centuries. We can see similar fears being expressed in the thread on Mexican immigration to the USA. These feelings are exacerbated in the modern era by the factors of globalisation and welfare entitlements. The latter has created a substantial underclass, in which immigrant populations are over-represented.
You have argued eloquently in another thread that the BNP (for example, but equally most other European racist parties) is supported mostly by disaffected Labour voters. Globalisation has meant that it is far easier for people to travel from blighted homelands to the comparative wealth of developed countries and both governments and businesses have been complicit in exploiting this source of cheap labour to keep wages down. In economic downturns, the immigrants provide a convenient scapegoat as in former times.
The people most affected by these policies are the poor and uneducated, most of who have been consigned to the welfare state (or minimum wage, at best). Since they are already consigned to dire ghettos, the establishment of rival ghettos threatens their natural territory, as well as their means of subsistence. Previous posters have noted "chavs" and other tribal epithets - these are all labels for the disenfranchised, each group posing a threat to middle class equanimity. Various immigrant groups are merely additional sets embodying these anxieties.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are far too many immigrants in several European countries - but also far too big an underclass as a whole. In other words, far too many unproductive people - no-one seems to object to a law-abiding, well-integrated, tax-payer, be they immigrant or "native", do they? Since globalisation has too many advantages to forego, we need to address the issue of welfare as a priority - for both native and immigrant. It should not be possible for an immigrant to obtain any sort of welfare support that resembles anything like a lifestyle choice - any more than it should be possible for any citizen, native born or otherwise, to have children merely for the sake of getting state aid to live or any similar wheeze. Welfare reform would go a long way to addressing the economic incentives to settle in developed countries.
In parallel, I would advocate that businesses are held liable for the costs of making staff redundant instead of being able to pass these costs onto the state through welfare. The savings made by significantly reducing welfare dependency would be passed back to business through tax reductions. If a business wished to reduce costs by redundancy, it would have to make sure the affected people were supported until they got a new job. This would greatly reduce the use of immigrant, low-cost labour for short-term profit which can then be off-loaded onto the state when times get a little tough.
Thirdly, multi-culturalism and all its pernicious influences should be actively erased from policy. Language, literacy and numeracy standards should be enforced and citizenship examinations in line with Western secular values required - applied to the entire underclass, as well. Ghettoes existing on whatever lines must be disbanded - therefore housing policy must be completely reviewed in line with the suggestion on welfare reform. Allowing immigrants or anyone else to be sidelined (or sideline themselves) from productive society is a recipe for the sense of isolation and anger Menedil is witnessing now directed at him.
Europe's problem is not immigration per se, but the long-standing willingness to allow great numbers of people to fester without a stake in society. Those of us who do have such a stake are not only being drowned by the financial demands such a policy has imposed, but are also feeling threatened by those who, despite such generous help, feel entitled to more.
Furunculus
05-03-2010, 12:40
good post, i skim-read Melendil's post and replied to what i thought was being asked; about the expression of anger as racism as opposed to the cause of an angry underclass.
Hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side. We have such a different take on just about everything. The only thing we have in common is that there are always more good people then bad ones, that is not an excuse for cultural relativation, we are no equals we are centuries ahead of them. They simply do not belong here.
disclaimer: they are welcome to live here as long as they keep to OUR rules and don't try to impose THEIR'S (that hardly happens though it's more of a leftist hobby to go full frontal when one does) , but that's that and that should be more than enough.
European armor with CAMELS!
Everything is better with camels.
I hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side.
I don't buy that. It's not clash of civilizations, but rather a mixture of them. You can see that happening in the Maghribi countries, for example.
Everything is better with camels.
I don't buy that. It's not clash of civilizations, but rather a mixture of them. You can see that happening in the Maghribi countries, for example.
No it's not a clash of civilisations, it's forced cooperation, a dream for dreamers. Not going to work, as Meneldil dad said it's going to be bad. And everybody will wonder why and blame everything but noble intentions.
Plenty of room in Wales too.....
That is actually incorrect. According to the figures, Great Britain can only support London.
By this, it requires the entire resources of England, Scotland Wales, etc to actually support London alone. The only reason we have the population as massive as it is, is because of massive importing of goods.
gaelic cowboy
05-04-2010, 15:19
Actually a place like England is better off overcrowded mainly because it's temperate climate and it's narrow land mass allows easy transport of goods. larger countries end up just wasting loads off space cos its awkward to use it fully.
Furunculus
05-04-2010, 15:41
lol, on the subject of europe going down-hill, get a load of this:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=weekinreview
Furunculus
05-04-2010, 15:57
Hey Furunculus, this might be a stupid question.. but why don't they cancel eachothers debts with eachother, for example:
Spain owes Ireland $30, Ireland owes Spain $16, why don't they just make it so Spain owes Ireland $14?
As for the "Greek Bailout" why don't Germany+France+Britain just put an extension on their loan or similar or a temporary pause or at a reduced rate? Then there would be no need for the bail-out at all, or since the bail-out is basically giving Greece free money, why not just cancel part of the debt they owe instead?
All-in-all, why are they making it far more complicated then it needs to be?
because it is mostly private debt, so each respective treasury would not only have to do a debt swap, they would also have to pay-out the private equity in their country that lent the money in the first place, and i can well imagine that the larger creditor would be unwilling to transfer the additional risk inside their own economy, when really it belongs outside with the original debtor country.
Megas Methuselah
05-05-2010, 01:31
Hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side. We have such a different take on just about everything. The only thing we have in common is that there are always more good people then bad ones, that is not an excuse for cultural relativation, we are no equals we are centuries ahead of them. They simply do not belong here.
Huh. We seem to get along perfectly well in Canada. Not my fault you people are so damn intolerant.
Huh. We seem to get along perfectly well in Canada. Not my fault you people are so damn intolerant.
We are in fact too tolerant for the intolerant, there is a small but vocal minority that is simply hostile towards anything that isn't muslim in their eyes, including other muslims . Would be a minor problem if it weren't for leftist xenophiles coming to their aid.
We are in fact too tolerant for the intolerant, there is a small but vocal minority that is simply hostile towards anything that isn't muslim in their eyes, including other muslims .
Exactly. So why do you think they would gain support from other Muslims?
Would be a minor problem if it weren't for leftist xenophiles coming to their aid
I don't think that anyone in their right minds, including TEH LEFTIES would ever support a group of people that is actively trying to harm other people. It's common sense.
Exactly. So why do you think they would gain support from other Muslims?
They don't, modern muslims are smarter than lefties they know exactly what I am talking about.
Common sense, yeah who in their right mind would support that, but you know what my answer is. And I am not talking about people like AdrianII or Menendil who would gladly give the finger just when I do. I am talking about very confused westeners.
Good read for those who can http://docstalk.blogspot.com/2010/04/danish-psychologist-integration-of.html
Leftists know that it is the social-economic situation, but is it? Explains robbery but not the violent nature of these robberies. Leftists know that it is because they are dissapointed in society, but maybe it's hate? Leftists know that simply isn't true, but maybe it is?
edit: cynical post needs some feelgood (Dutch) http://www.geenstijl.tv/2010/04/rutger_checkt_topverhaal_kapot.html
Skullheadhq
05-08-2010, 17:31
There are lies, bold lies and leftist truths. Fear huh, well drilled
It's a lie they steal because they're poor, they steal because they're Arab, right Frag?
Also, you should stop reading 'De Telegraaf', it's populist crap.
They aren't automatically victims of society because they are Arabs.
And yeah Telegraaf sucks I read Elsevier for news.
Seamus Fermanagh
05-08-2010, 18:33
Let's not trend toward personal attacks or trolling please, keep things on track.
Louis VI the Fat
05-08-2010, 23:20
And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.
As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist":dizzy2:. Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.:shame:I understand what the purpose is. I feel exactly the same. Except that I am less singularly obsessive about Arabs - I have issues with West Africans too. :shame:
Much to my own surprise, I've turned into a frustrated, petty bourgeois racist. As have a lot of other people.
Sad, isn't it? :embarassed:
Louis VI the Fat
05-08-2010, 23:32
It's a lie they steal because they're poor, they steal because they're Arab, right Frag?Frags posted an interesting article by a Danish psychologist. Not that I agree with the conclusions.
Muslims make up 60%-70% of the prison population in France, and apparantly Denmark too, yet they constitute by no means 60-70% of poor people. This would suggest that poverty is not the cause indeed. :book:
Another well observed phenomenon is that the first generation are mostly hard-working people, doing low-wage jobs. It is their sons and grandsons who fill the crime statistics. You know - the boys with their expensive mopeds, newest cell phones, and designer clothes.
Muslims make up 60%-70% of the prison population in France, and apparantly Denmark too, yet they constitute by no means 60-70% of poor people. This would suggest that poverty is not the cause indeed.
A: 60-70% of all prisoners in France are Muslim
B: Thus, Islam is the reason of them going to prison.
It's a non sequitur. One should examine the precise reason why they've been sent to prison. I don't think Islam has too much to do with it. If Morocco or Algeria had been Christian, I think there'd be quite a portion of Algerians and Moroccans in prison as well.
Another well observed phenomenon is that the first generation are mostly hard-working people, doing low-wage jobs. It is their sons and grandsons who fill the crime statistics. You know - the boys with their expensive mopeds, newest cell phones, and designer clothes.
Which is quite intruiging. I personally think that one of the main reasons for them commiting those crimes is the fact that they feel neither Arab nor French. I think there are several factors that one should keep in mind;
1) The original immigrants were people of the lowest socio-economical class. There is a tendency that shows that these people are also not the most intelligent people.
2) Their children suffer from something of a cultural shock, as they feel neither French nor Arab. A low intelligence combined with a lack of social structure or a cultural identity would increase the chances of those people engaging in crime.
On the other hand, we have also noticed that over the last ten years or so, that in the Netherlands, there is a continual growth of Morrocan and Turkish people going to university. I don't think the multicultural society has totally failed, I just think we handled it in a wrong way. And no, the "good" way is not expediating all of them.
Interestingly, the University of Twente has done research on Morrocans and Turks living in autochtonous places, and apparently, if there are a lot of autochtones living in an area, the immigrants feel more Dutch. I think this is something of an instinctive reaction of adaptation. It also (kinda) refutes the statements by this Danish psychologist. So basically; the whiter the neighbourhood, the more Dutch immigrants feel.
Link, in Dutch: http://www.uvt.nl/onderzoek/uitgesproken/havekes/
If you read the article you would have known she blames it on the culture of people from islamic cultures, not the islam. True or not, what is most interesting is that such conclusions weren't allowed professionally, only social-economic considerations are to be considered.
Seamus Fermanagh
05-09-2010, 05:46
Immigrants to the USA tended to be no smarter, and no less intelligent, than any other largish group of people. They did tend to be woefully undereducated. Is that not also being replicated in Europe?
Louis:
I suspect the bourgoie tendencies go along with your advancing age -- remember Churchill's quip on switching parties -- and not so much to do with any racist attitude. I suspect that you'd interact just fine with anyone from these backgrounds if they sat down for polite conversation and a hunk of baguette. It's the behavior/attitude set you have trouble tolerating, not the irrelevant difference in melanin.
Immigrants to the USA tended to be no smarter, and no less intelligent, than any other largish group of people. They did tend to be woefully undereducated. Is that not also being replicated in Europe?
What if they don't care about education? These guys are a lost generation and they don't give a crap, they care about nice cars and Prada shoes, and no they don't have to watch the people they rob having such cars and shoes, they rob grannies. The rare one that achieves something by hard work and ambition they spit on, 'verkaast' (cheesed) is an insult.
Ironside
05-09-2010, 09:46
What if they don't care about education? These guys are a lost generation and they don't give a crap, they care about nice cars and Prada shoes, and no they don't have to watch the people they rob having such cars and shoes, they rob grannies. The rare one that achieves something by hard work and ambition they spit on, 'verkaast' (cheesed) is an insult.
The question on why they do this should obviously follow. Particulary if they are children of working (if still lower class) parents.
The question on why they do this should obviously follow. Particulary if they are children of working (if still lower class) parents.
Well if nothing is ever your personal responsibility I don't have to think very hard for an answer.
Well if nothing is ever your personal responsibility I don't have to think very hard for an answer.
So all those people who got fired/laid-off because of the recession, it was all their fault?
There is only so much personal responsibility, but we live in a system. Peoples actions work with other peoples actions to produce certain results, and these can affect others who had nothing to do with the original action.
In the same breath, there are those who have been given a free-ride and never needed to take personal responsibility. Can these ever be accurately weighed up against some one who has worked hard, but constantly ended up down on their luck because of the system?
We don't live in a bubble by ourselves, which is where all individualistic arguments constantly and always fall apart. If we did, then people would have to simply take responsibility for all their actions. There are obvious differences between those who try and those who don't.
Should some one from Arab decent who has worked hard and lived a very good "western lifestyle" be stigmatised and discriminated against, just because some random arab in the newspaper did something bad? These generalisations hurt everyone involved and all they do is infact, breed the generalisations more.
Is it really stigmatation? Might be where you are from, and I do not doubt the rare immigrant has to face discrimination. In the same way the locals who can't get the hell out of mutually respected areas are.
Ironside
05-10-2010, 08:31
Is it really stigmatation? Might be where you are from, and I do not doubt the rare immigrant has to face discrimination. In the same way the locals who can't get the hell out of mutually respected areas are.
I would say that the ones stigmataized in Menendil's case is the decent Arabs and probably part of the reason for the rise of more devoted Islam. The Arab "chavs" steal their Arab identity and the natural French counterreaction is stealing their French identity so what is left?
Well if nothing is ever your personal responsibility I don't have to think very hard for an answer.
So why is nothing ever their personal responsibillity? What you're describing is a symthom, not the cause. It's as pointless as saying "toughen up" to a PST. Or telling a crazy person to not be crazy (since it's a state of mind). If one part of the population is having much larger propotions of "lost causes", then there has to be some factors involved creating this. Fix those and you fix the problem.
Shout lack of personal responsibility, do nothing and the problems will simply disappear like they always do, do they?
Nothing is ever their responsibility because the left can't accept that their multicultural utopia doesn't exist and will claw anything that isn't 'ok'. Their ideals will always come first, and perception becomes more important then reality. I am fixing the underlined cause, I will vote on anyone who wants to destroy the leftist church it's the only way.
Ironside
05-10-2010, 12:01
Nothing is ever their responsibility because the left can't accept that their multicultural utopia doesn't exist and will claw anything that isn't 'ok'. Their ideals will always come first, and perception becomes more important then reality. I am fixing the underlined cause, I will vote on anyone who wants to destroy the leftist church it's the only way.
And that would solve the integration problem how? You're calling them the lost generation, so evidently you won't try to fix them, you can't deport them (citizens since birth) or purge them. So you're still stuck with them.
Say that you are to teach a moron advanced physics. Unfortunatly his insane parents will burn down your house with you in it, if you fail. Your solution amounts to saying that the moron is too stupid for it and should have more dicipline, while complaining on those who let them enter in the first place, in your opinion.
But you might have some decent ideas, so whoop away with the multiculturalists. I suppose that means that you intend aggressive assimilation then? How?
Megas Methuselah
05-10-2010, 12:33
Can someone explain why multiculturalism is working well in Canada but, as Fragony keeps whining, is going to the **** out in euroland or wherever he lives? I'm confused.
Furunculus
05-10-2010, 12:35
density certainly plays a part, england and the netherlands are two of the most densely populated countries in europe.
I don't have a solution, not being the problem will have to do for now. Why are you asking me for one? We weren't allowed to point out a problem after all, that was not 'ok'. I don't think I ever posted something as harsh as Menendil did here, I also don't agree most Arabs I know are awesome people.
Megas Methuselah
05-10-2010, 12:48
Ok, sure. Right on. Let's just all avoid my question that's fundamental to the whole damn situation.
Rhyfelwyr
05-10-2010, 12:55
Well Canada is a country built by immigrants. Plus part of their national identity seems to be being the liberal version of the USA, so maybe xenophobia is seen as being against their ideals.
Can someone explain why multiculturalism is working well in Canada but, as Fragony keeps whining, is going to the **** out in euroland or wherever he lives? I'm confused.
Yes you are since I don't say that, that's a leftist reflex. Menendil's post says a lot, he knows what he is supposed to say, he knows what he is supposed to think. But he no longer has the faith to do it. 'Faith'? What's in a word.
Ok, sure. Right on. Let's just all avoid my question that's fundamental to the whole damn situation.
I agree. ~;)
I think Furunculus already answered it partly.
In Canada you can dump the natives somewhere in a forest but in the Netherlands you will come across them every day. the differences are more noticeable, especially when you interact with them more often.
And what Rhyfelwyr hinted at, diversity, in the Netherlands it's the Dutch vs. the Middle Easterners, in Canada it's the French vs. English vs. Germans vs. Indian tribe 1 vs. Indian tribe 2 vs. Mexicans vs. people from the US etc.
So the solution would be that the dutch do two things:
1) conquer more Lebensraum
2) get more diverse immigrants, China has too many people for example, Germany has many unemployed etc.
On a more serious note, it's a complex subject and I don't think the solution is easy because the people involved are rather diverse, even those "two groups" have many shades of grey in between. Nonetheless Canada is a very different country from the Netherlands as we tried to say.
Why do I always get the feeling that Hussy is hiding his superpowers
Why do I always get the feeling that Hussy is hiding his superpowers
There are reasons surrounding his title of "Bratwurst Man" which he doesn't want too public, as he will get flooded with popularity.
Captain Sausage just sounds better, also has the advantage of not excluding ICH BIN EIN FRANKFURTER as a proper battlecry.
edit ' Major Sausage' of course gawd
Skullheadhq
05-10-2010, 19:24
1) conquer more Lebensraum
Yeah, we'll send our mighty army forward to conquer Belgium.
Pic related, it's the average soldier of the Glorious Royal Dutch Army...
http://images.sodahead.com/blogs/000281649/gay_soldiers_xlarge.jpeg
I'll think we'll go for option two, Chinese people make good food and is underrepresented in crime, how much better can you have it?
Army allows gays yes, they fight just as well so what's your problem. I know that it's haraam and they ought to be thrown from the highest floor, as we can hear, but really why would you do such a thing. And where did you find that pic, are you sure you hate gay people?
Skullheadhq
05-11-2010, 16:12
It's not that gay people are in the army, it's just that they are ******* that will cry if their Frikandelen and Haburgers won't be flow in in in the war zone, seriously, I heard they have barbecue every weekend. The Dutch army is one waste of money.
Vladimir
05-11-2010, 18:05
Homosexuals in the army isn't a bad thing. It's the gay people who shouldn't be let in.
Homosexuals in the army isn't a bad thing. It's the gay people who shouldn't be let in.
I agree, making it an emo army would be a lot more effective.
Vladimir
05-11-2010, 20:09
I agree, making it an emo army would be a lot more effective.
We can have the emo kids do psyops.
"Sir,
I don't know why all the Taliban we capture have slits on their wrists."
Stupid Taliban; they don't know to cut lengthwise.
It's not that gay people are in the army, it's just that they are ******* that will cry if their Frikandelen and Haburgers won't be flow in in in the war zone, seriously, I heard they have barbecue every weekend. The Dutch army is one waste of money.
They do cry when their legs are blown of, do you think it's fun over there. They have more to worry about have a little respect, or don't, and tell them in their face buenos dias.
PanzerJaeger
05-11-2010, 23:42
It's not that gay people are in the army, it's just that they are ******* that will cry if their Frikandelen and Haburgers won't be flow in in in the war zone, seriously, I heard they have barbecue every weekend. The Dutch army is one waste of money.
How do you say idiotic in Dutch?
The only thing "wrong" with the Dutch military is the same thing that is wrong with most European militaries - it is too small and somewhat underfunded. They have fought bravely and performed very well in combat situations in Afghanistan.
Tellos Athenaios
05-12-2010, 00:16
For your future reference: an idiot is een idioot, en idiotic is idioot. ~;)
I agree that the current Dutch military is a capable force. I am not sure whether or not the force is underfunded per se; or at least the discrepancy in funding and ambition seems less compared to either UK or US forces. Then again, I'd say that the best use of the Dutch armed forces is as highly trained professionals co-operating with other European/NATO forces in joint missions, rather than a stand-alone army (for which we have no real need, since conventional 20th century warfare is not likely to break out in our immediate vicinity any time soon).
How do you say idiotic in Dutch?
The only thing "wrong" with the Dutch military is the same thing that is wrong with most European militaries - it is too small and somewhat underfunded. They have fought bravely and performed very well in combat situations in Afghanistan.
It's neither, they have more than enough to play with. It's build with cooperation in mind how are we going to defend our hub anyway, that spot on the worldmap under the crumbs of your sandwich, that's us.
edit ah what he said. See them as an specialised unit, it's a trikeforce not a defensive army.
PanzerJaeger
05-12-2010, 02:54
I trust that you guys know more about the Dutch military than I. Probably explains their exemplary performance. :bow:
The Spartans used to love the homosexuals in their armies, they even put them in the same unit. The idea being, they will fight harder because their partner is there, and if anything happened to their partner, they will fight even harder in the battle to revenge their death.
Vladimir
05-12-2010, 11:21
I don't remember seeing these guys in 300.
http://images.sodahead.com/blogs/000281649/gay_soldiers_xlarge.jpeg
Colin and Justin can stay home.
https://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8190/justincolin3.jpg (https://img27.imageshack.us/i/justincolin3.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)
Seriously though...These guys are awesome.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-12-2010, 17:38
The Spartans used to love the homosexuals in their armies, they even put them in the same unit. The idea being, they will fight harder because their partner is there, and if anything happened to their partner, they will fight even harder in the battle to revenge their death.
Actually, that was the Thebans, they beat the Spartans, and then the Macedonian farmboys rolled over them (litterally).
On topic: the density thing is a huge issue. Europe is overcrowded as is, that's part of why our birth-rate is falling; people know this. However, then you add in immigrants, increase the population, over-burden services.
There isn't a way to make that better, it just isn't going to happen.
Anyway, Meth, you're always going on about how dreadful white Canadians are to Native Americans, so multi-culturalism can't be working that well in canada either.
Unless that's a bunch of crud, which is it?
Yep, going downhill, Sweden 2010
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/948511/503bcd63/zaal_boze_hakbars_eisen_restecp.html
Leftist people know that it is an enrichment to our culture, but I am not 100% sure if that is the truth.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-15-2010, 10:36
Yep, going downhill, Sweden 2010
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/948511/503bcd63/zaal_boze_hakbars_eisen_restecp.html
Leftist people know that it is an enrichment to our culture, but I am not 100% sure if that is the truth.
The cop on the left at 04:19 looks like my dad!
Rhyfelwyr
05-15-2010, 12:56
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/948511/503bcd63/zaal_boze_hakbars_eisen_restecp.html
Why is the girl in the hijab swearing? How unfemenine. Come to think of it, why is she even in an educational facility? There's work in the kitchen that needs doing...
Hypocritical Muslims... :no:
Yep, going downhill, Sweden 2010
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/948511/503bcd63/zaal_boze_hakbars_eisen_restecp.html
Leftist people know that it is an enrichment to our culture, but I am not 100% sure if that is the truth.
Well, yes and no.
How is that film an enrichment to any culture? I don't care whether the guy calls himself some newfangled modern film artist or whatever, he mixed muslim symbology with pictures of gay people and that gay.bar song and then expected them to appreciate it?
What a fool...seriously...
It's like showing an audience of Christians The Life of Brian, might be lucky if they're christian only on paper but if they take their religion seriously they will hardly appreciate it.
There will probably be less middle-eastern macho-posing, violence and bad words than you get with these muslims, but then again in certain areas in the US you might find that just as well.
Which still doesn't change the fact that a lot of it seems way out of place, there are actually enrichments to be found with foreign people, but you're not going to find them by insulting their religious beliefs.
Ironside
05-15-2010, 18:27
Well, yes and no.
How is that film an enrichment to any culture? I don't care whether the guy calls himself some newfangled modern film artist or whatever, he mixed muslim symbology with pictures of gay people and that gay.bar song and then expected them to appreciate it?
What a fool...seriously...
It's like showing an audience of Christians The Life of Brian, might be lucky if they're christian only on paper but if they take their religion seriously they will hardly appreciate it.
There will probably be less middle-eastern macho-posing, violence and bad words than you get with these muslims, but then again in certain areas in the US you might find that just as well.
Which still doesn't change the fact that a lot of it seems way out of place, there are actually enrichments to be found with foreign people, but you're not going to find them by insulting their religious beliefs.
That movie is made of an Iranian woman (Sooreh Hera) and was showed here in the context of what the borders of freedom of speech lies. He did start with pictures provoking Christianity, which were appearently fine by these people. Short story, they went there so they could be offended by an artist who only did this because of the massive reaction of a previous picture from him (Muhammad as a roundabout dog).
The true irony is that these attemts to shut him up makes him more famous than ever and making this stuff going to the mainstream headlines instead of being something barely commented on and missed by almost everyone not searching it out.
Can be noted that he was exposed for attemted arson today (he wasn't home and the fire self-died). That religious elements is certainly overdoing it.
The true irony is that these attemts to shut him up makes him more famous than ever and making this stuff going to the mainstream headlines instead of being something barely commented on and missed by almost everyone not searching it out.
That's pretty much true. I wouldn't be surprised if Salman Rushdie sent Ayatollah Khomeini a personal letter expressing his gratitute, after the latter ordered a fatwa against him. I read "The Satanic Verses" and it's a horrible book, and it hardly even references Muhammed, and when it did, it was in some sort of weird dream sequence..thingie. The only people it could possibly offend are people who like easy books.
Yeah and I bet it were hired actors, they will do anything to stigmatize.
Meneldil
05-15-2010, 23:18
The most tragic part of this thread is that none could spell Meneldil correctly. Trully saddening.
In other news (couldn't check the forum much because of my new job), I haven't changed my mind in the last two weeks. And I still find the arguments put forward by the proponents of multiculturalism worthless.
Every new day, I witness new cases of arab scums acting like scums, while the 'white' population pretends to look away or stares at her feet. I've also learnt that the word "française" when used by an arab or a black means "slut". How charming. I knew they had bad names to call us with (and so do we), but that's bringing it to a whole new level. This macho-man retard culture assimilates white women in general to sluts, to objects, not even worthy of respect. That's bringing racism to a whole new level of stupidity.
When the majority feels abused by the minority, something is going wrong, really wrong. The image of the "arab-scum-with-his-kniff-and-his-twelve-friends" is so deeply rooted in our mind that we are paralyzed by fear.
What is the point of all this? How could we build a peaceful or even functional society like this?
@Louis, I don't have much problem with West Africans. There's not a lot of them in Montpellier (unlike Paris), and those who come here are mostly well educated foreign students, who generally agree that african youth living in France are rotten and deserve some good asskicking.
@MegasMatuselah, multiculturalism working in Canada? That's funny, coming from someone who complains about the evil imperialistic racist canadian state every second post. From someone who lives in a country where natives are dying because of alcoholism and poverty and where different ethnicities never deal with eachothers, except when it comes to fighting at the exit of a club on a saturday night. Canada was never a nation (in the sociological meaning) to begin with, your multiculturalist model isn't working and never did, hence why Québecers rightfully reject it. Your country have failed when it came to minorities, even more so than the US, and I'm sad to see that France is slowly heading the same way: a giant place where people of different skin colors live in different neighborhood, hate eachother or at best try to ignore eachothers. That's not what a country is supposed to be.
rotorgun
05-15-2010, 23:19
It's almost time to bring back dueling. If some dude, black or white, Christian or Muslim, Lithuanian or not would have called my sister or my date a whore, I would have walked across the street and socked him on the yapper so that his lips would be sore for a week or more. I probably would have had a few choice remarks about his family lineage as well. I judge people one at a time, but can appreciate how difficult it can be to adjust to a new culture.
Vladimir
05-15-2010, 23:33
Yep, going downhill, Sweden 2010
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/948511/503bcd63/zaal_boze_hakbars_eisen_restecp.html
Leftist people know that it is an enrichment to our culture, but I am not 100% sure if that is the truth.
That video is a blatant provocation and says as much about the person who made it as does the crowd.
It's difficult to respect people who blatantly mock the deeply held beliefs of others.
Rhyfelwyr
05-16-2010, 00:03
I think it's just human nature that we identify most with people that are like us, so the multicultural society will never work. People are never going to live in a society full of different cultures that actually integrate with each other while at the same time keeping their cultural distinctiveness.
One of two things will happen. Either the minority culture will be gradually assimilated into that of the majority, or there will keep their separate ways and relations will continue to deteriorate.
Whether or not they can be assimilated depends on how similar they are. Culture might be the main factor, but in reality I suspect skin tone really does make a big difference on a subconcious level.
And even then the cultural compatablity is more complex that you might think. For example, why do Indian's integrate OK, but no Arabs?
Also, Meneldil, on that point you made regarding Qeuebecers rejecting multi-culturalism, I'm not sure how true that is. Certainly it was in the past, but even since their Quiet Revolution back in the 60's they've been going the for the soppy civic 'everyone that lives in x is nationality x' type approach, much the same way as Scottish nationalist have.
gaelic cowboy
05-16-2010, 00:13
For example, why do Indian's integrate OK, but no Arabs?
I would imagine in the past it was because of the socio-economic grouping most Indians belonged too they were generally a doctor or hospital consultant at least in the past.
There is also a theory I heard once that the more gods you have in your beliefs the less important any one particular god becomes handy if your interacting with monotheist westerners
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-16-2010, 00:23
Well, yes and no.
How is that film an enrichment to any culture? I don't care whether the guy calls himself some newfangled modern film artist or whatever, he mixed muslim symbology with pictures of gay people and that gay.bar song and then expected them to appreciate it?
What a fool...seriously...
It's like showing an audience of Christians The Life of Brian, might be lucky if they're christian only on paper but if they take their religion seriously they will hardly appreciate it.
There will probably be less middle-eastern macho-posing, violence and bad words than you get with these muslims, but then again in certain areas in the US you might find that just as well.
Which still doesn't change the fact that a lot of it seems way out of place, there are actually enrichments to be found with foreign people, but you're not going to find them by insulting their religious beliefs.
Well, the film itself is not the art. The actual art is the thing Frag linked to, the image of a bunch of Swedish Muslims, speaking Swedish with an Arab accent, chanting obcenities, calling people pigs, and threatening violence. Normally I would say the artist's production piece was just pointlessly offensive and crass, but it got exactly the reaction it was supposed to from those people.
That was the point, to see apparently "normal" people in a university setting (that looks to be a lecture theatre) react like barbarians.
If something similar happened with Christians most of them would just walk out in disgust.
The Life of Brian is, btw the way Killingly funny if you are a Christian, know your history and theology, and actually bother to watch it. The people who initially complained never actually watched the film.
I think integration is possible under the right circumstances. Just look at the Irish, Germans, Italians and Jews who immigrated to the US during the 19th century. Though their skin tones were very similar to the majority of that time. People were made not to get along, I guess that's just a fact of life.
rotorgun
05-16-2010, 02:25
I think integration is possible under the right circumstances. Just look at the Irish, Germans, Italians and Jews who immigrated to the US during the 19th century. Though their skin tones were very similar to the majority of that time. People were made not to get along, I guess that's just a fact of life.
Really...just look at the Backroom. We're ready to knock each other on the head and we can't even see one another! :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: If you don't like the country you move to, or live, in than either work to change it through the political process, or shut up and assimilate. If you can't assimilate than leave.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-16-2010, 02:27
Really...just look at the Backroom. We're ready to knock each other on the head and we can't even see one another! :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: If you don't like the country you move to, or live, in than either work to change it through the political process, or shut up and assimilate. If you can't assimilate than leave.
....and that goes for the country of your birth tto.
rotorgun
05-16-2010, 02:32
....and that goes for the country of your birth tto.
....and there is this option as well. True indeed.
Megas Methuselah
05-16-2010, 04:35
@MegasMatuselah, multiculturalism working in Canada? That's funny, coming from someone who complains about the evil imperialistic racist canadian state every second post. From someone who lives in a country where natives are dying because of alcoholism and poverty and where different ethnicities never deal with eachothers, except when it comes to fighting at the exit of a club on a saturday night. Canada was never a nation (in the sociological meaning) to begin with, your multiculturalist model isn't working and never did, hence why Québecers rightfully reject it. Your country have failed when it came to minorities, even more so than the US, and I'm sad to see that France is slowly heading the same way: a giant place where people of different skin colors live in different neighborhood, hate eachother or at best try to ignore eachothers. That's not what a country is supposed to be.
1) Today's common Indigenous issues are largely the effects of Canada's colonial past. To attribute those intergenerational problems to multiculturalism is merely a lack of understanding and show of ignorance on your part and, quite frankly, leaves me insulted.
2) This leaves me insulted because it is this exact celebration of our multiculturalism that is truly begginning to help my people stand up. The gradual re-embracement (or simply embracement) of our treaty rights has, together with social policies and the condemnation of racism, certainly allowed me to advance.
3) Different ethnicities don't have to deal with each other? Where in the hell did you get that from?
4) I never said Canada was a nation and, in fact, have always claimed it was multinational. Contemporary political scientists have been writing about this lately, saying that we must accept the fact that Canada is not only a multicultural country, but a multinational one, as well. This is true in regards to both the First Nations and your own francophone Quebec, as well.
5) Yes, Canada has "failed" with minorities, and is continuing to do so. That's why it's still an ongoing struggle. But with every new generation, more advancement will be made. In my own case, this is particularly true as more and more younger generations of Aboriginal people are finishing advanced education to move into higher employment. Hopefully, as older generations die off, their spite and hatred will go with them.
6) I deny Canada is wholly a segregrated place, though it certainly once was. That aside, who are you to dictate "... what a country is supposed to be" and what it is not be? Has not the study of history proven that people have always been in conflict throughout our existence as a species? Yet my personal life has proven that we can get along. It is a journey to get rid of ancestral prejudices, true, but when I can flirt with a Muslim girl, become close friends with a black, easily interact with whites on a daily basis without feeling the desire to cut them up, begin friendships with people varying from Thai to German, and indeed, even witness first-hand ethnic inter-marriage, then I surely like to believe humanity has a higher destiny than the squabbles you constantly complain about. This sounds hypocritical? Well, let's imagine I'm not the same person my little internet personage makes me out to be. Wouldn't that be nice?
It's almost time to bring back dueling. If some dude, black or white, Christian or Muslim, Lithuanian or not would have called my sister or my date a whore, I would have walked across the street and socked him on the yapper so that his lips would be sore for a week or more. I probably would have had a few choice remarks about his family lineage as well.
Isn't that exactly what we are criticizing as barbaric behaviour here?
The Life of Brian is, btw the way Killingly funny if you are a Christian, know your history and theology, and actually bother to watch it. The people who initially complained never actually watched the film.
I found it funny as well but also felt guilty because of that at the time.
That video is a blatant provocation and says as much about the person who made it as does the crowd.
It's difficult to respect people who blatantly mock the deeply held beliefs of others.
Screw their religion, if they can't handle that they don't belong in a civilization and should go back to herding goats in the deserts of Backwardstan.
Teeuwen (comedian) says it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOS9vsccJs
I fundamentally believe I am not a pig by the way
Can be noted that he was exposed for attemted arson today (he wasn't home and the fire self-died). That religious elements is certainly overdoing it.
That's not what my sources say
Megas Methuselah
05-16-2010, 07:59
-delete post-
Ironside
05-16-2010, 09:51
That's not what my sources say
What part? You know something about the 21 year old now arrested for the deed that we don't?
Or do your sources not consider attempted arson as overdoing protests?
The part where he is setting his own house on fire.
Ironside
05-16-2010, 10:53
The part where he is setting his own house on fire.
:inquisitive: Getting exposed for something means that someone else were doing it. Religious element is refering to suspected fundies. Bit complicated formulation, but I never claimed that he was doing it to himself.
:inquisitive: Getting exposed for something means that someone else were doing it.
no it doesn't
Ironside
05-16-2010, 12:49
no it doesn't
It's a mean word.
Getting exposed to arson is different to getting exposed for (doing) arson.
Which is appearently exactly the mistake I did. Bah, stupid English not having a word without those multiple meanings and having for and to translated to the same word some of the time. "Vilks was getting exposed for arson" is an exact translation of the sentence used in media, but unmistakable in meaning in Swedish.
Anyway, another one got arrested as well. Seems that they left plenty of easily identifiable evidence.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-16-2010, 14:14
I found it funny as well but also felt guilty because of that at the time.
You shouldn't, unless you have a problem with people criticising Jews for the bloody, pointless, fighting and factionalism against Rome. In case you were wondering, Brian isn't meant to be Jesus, he's a False Prophet, that's why they have his mum at the Sermon on the Mount mis-hearing the beatitides.
It's a mean word.
Getting exposed to arson is different to getting exposed for (doing) arson.
Which is appearently exactly the mistake I did. Bah, stupid English not having a word without those multiple meanings and having for and to translated to the same word some of the time. "Vilks was getting exposed for arson" is an exact translation of the sentence used in media, but unmistakable in meaning in Swedish.
Anyway, another one got arrested as well. Seems that they left plenty of easily identifiable evidence.
You are looking for, "supjected to Arson", or perhaps.... I don't have a non-Latinate word for you, which is likely the problem.
Screw their religion, if they can't handle that they don't belong in a civilization and should go back to herding goats in the deserts of Backwardstan.
Teeuwen (comedian) says it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOS9vsccJs
I fundamentally believe I am not a pig by the way
Well I bet, Frag knows it, it might be of interest to others. Here we have the same man interviewed by the moslim girls (meiden van halal) he made fun of in their islamic program.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knRLJp-nqSg&feature=related
Well I'm not such a big fan of the man's comedy, he doesn't give the poor girls a chance. I remember this clip as one of the first things I showed my Islamic girlfriend when we started dating. Yes, I'm overly hounest and stuff when it comes to these things. One of the first conversations I had with her, was about the fact that I indeed could and would get erections because of other girls lol. Eitherway I'm getting way off topic.
Strike For The South
05-16-2010, 16:49
The most tragic part of this thread is that none could spell Meneldil correctly. Trully saddening.
In other news (couldn't check the forum much because of my new job), I haven't changed my mind in the last two weeks. And I still find the arguments put forward by the proponents of multiculturalism worthless.
Every new day, I witness new cases of arab scums acting like scums, while the 'white' population pretends to look away or stares at her feet. I've also learnt that the word "française" when used by an arab or a black means "slut". How charming. I knew they had bad names to call us with (and so do we), but that's bringing it to a whole new level. This macho-man retard culture assimilates white women in general to sluts, to objects, not even worthy of respect. That's bringing racism to a whole new level of stupidity.
When the majority feels abused by the minority, something is going wrong, really wrong. The image of the "arab-scum-with-his-kniff-and-his-twelve-friends" is so deeply rooted in our mind that we are paralyzed by fear.
What is the point of all this? How could we build a peaceful or even functional society like this?
.
Men dameaning women, lawless youths, lack of civility
Mon Cher how will you ever deal with these unuiqe problems that no one has ever faced before?
gaelic cowboy
05-16-2010, 17:08
Men dameaning women, lawless youths, lack of civility
Mon Cher how will you ever deal with these unuiqe problems that no one has ever faced before?
:laugh4: I bet he starts every sentence with "The trouble with this country is <insert X> back in my day blah blah blah"
Yay numbers, I love them. Been calculated that das experiment has the economic benefit of minus 6.900.000.000 euro a year. Tax revenues included. Leftist people know we need them for the elder but it only looks like there are less grannies if they are too scared to go outside.
economic benefit my arse
edit: Frag get your numbers straight you missed a few hundred million euro, das experiment costs us 7.200.000.000 euro a year. Since welfare dependence and crime rate are about similar in other NE countries apply to national budget. This is just the influx by the way, who's already here was neglected. Voting was never so easy.
Meneldil
05-21-2010, 19:24
Men dameaning women, lawless youths, lack of civility
Mon Cher how will you ever deal with these unuiqe problems that no one has ever faced before?
I dunno. How did/would you deal with it? My fear is that people will start dealing with it the harsh way.
I'm perfectly aware that the problems you cited have always existed. Been there done that. For all I know, there probably was just as much violence in Paris in 1910 than there is in 2010 (though I'd say violence was more "classy" back then, for a lack of better word). The new thing is that this violence is now mostly coming from a very caracteristic and noticeable part of the population.
You can't hate white people when you're muggled by a white dude if you're white yourself. But it is all too easy to start hating brown people if you're muggled by brown people.
“though I'd say violence was more "classy" back then, for a lack of better word”
Not Really, if I remember what I learned in Lyon II/ Lumière University.
In fact, we are living in one of the safest society ever.
The Savate was developed (1845) because the streets of Paris were so unsafe that the Préfet forbade men to carry swords and blade. So men started to carry cane.
@Menendil, do you have any decent rightwing party in France, not these FN scumbags but more like our Freedom Party. It's kinda unnerving to me that the people on the barricades are growing much harsher then I ever was.
Skullheadhq
05-23-2010, 16:22
Ironically it's the Freedom Party which wants to curtail freedom the most for safety. Nothing against the party, but they should have chosen a different name.
Might I suggest the Bigot Party? Or perhaps the Wilders Lovefest would be more appropriate?
Might I suggest the Bigot Party? Or perhaps the Wilders Lovefest would be more appropriate?
Keep that stuff at school where that is no doubt the height of wit. You bring nothing to the actual discussion, because you can't, it is normal that the ones that are 100% ok resort to oneliners. Boringly so. People don't burst into applause like they used to, do they. That's because these problems are real, they exist, people have them.
So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?
So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?
But what does that have to do with painting elephant purple so they can take tango lessons between 7 and 8 on sundays?
Furunculus
05-24-2010, 09:13
So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?
which in itself is a distraction from the fact that you suggested the PVV rename itself the Bigot Party, therefore denying that it exists to fulfill a public need, and that need is a public perception of mass immigration as a problem.
the labour party in Britain made the same stupid mistake, as did the Lib-Dems, which is why C2 voters in the industrial heartlands switched to the Cons in large numbers and partly why the Lib-Dem surge disappeared.
Skullheadhq
05-24-2010, 10:32
So you deny that the PVV is incredibly centred around Wilders and is basically his own private club?
Wilders has some VERY GOOD ideas. He wants to keep the state pension age at 65 instead of increasing it to 67.
But he got some ideas that I'm radically against. I'll try to translate the party program for y'all
I. Tax Cuts
* 16 billion tax cuts for citizens and entrepreneurs (lower income tax ,less state officials, less money to the EU, less subsidies, less development aid to third world countries)
* Additional billion for pensioners
* More money to police, teachers and nurses by cutting bureaucracy/
* Lower Oil Prices by cutting some taxes on it.
* Keep the interest on your mortgage reductable from your taxes.
* Less ministries, less officials
* GNo increase of communal taxes.
II. Criminality and Terrorism
* Higher punishment and introduction of minimum penalties
* Life sentence after three major crimes
* Abolishment of reducted punishment in case of attempted crime
* Wettelijke verplichting OM tot voordeelsontneming daders bij misdrijven
* less Task punishment
* Abolishment of aging of violent- and sexual crimes.
* No punishment reduction when the prisoner behaves well
* Introduction 'boot camps
* Frisking anytime a police officer feels like it (That's nice for an officer who sees a good-looking woman!)
* Re-introduction youth- and sexual offences police (dunno what it's called in english)
* Outlaw the Pedophile Party
* More proffesional help for victims.
* End of 'Gedoogbeleid' (legal weed): closure of these weedshops, and detect home-growers and punishment. ( War on Drugs)
* Deport (Morrocan) 'streetterrorists' and criminals who have a double passport
* Introduction administrative detention in case of terrotism (?)
* Ten years no welfare checks in case of fraud.
* Non-Dutchmen who commit a crime here are to be deported.
* Agression against police and ambulance personel: +1/3 higher minimumpunishment en 1/3 higher maximumpunishment
* Squatting ban
* Reorganisation police: from 26 to 4 departments (North, East, South and West?)
III. Education and Family
* Meer aandacht voor onderwijs, gezin en opvoeding kinderen: veilige scholen, kwaliteitsverbetering lerarenopleiding, normen en waarden terug in gezin en onderwijs, ouders meer verantwoordelijk voor crimineel gedrag van hun minderjarige kinderen (waar van toepassing ook als het gaat om hun eigen verblijfsstatus)
* National bias in history (WTF! You can't change history to your liking! Let's lynch Wilders! Argh!)
* Smaller Schools
* Abolishment VMBO (School for dumb people), reintroduction ambachts(schools where you learn to bake if you want to become a baker, where you learn to build a wall if you want to be a construction worker etc.)- and 'punishmentschools'
* Social service for people in High School (3 months visiting old people etc.)
* Freedom of education, but no more Islamitic schools for 5 years.
* No more waiting list for youth care
IV. Immigrationstop / Integration
* Immigrationstop for non-western foreigners (Morrocans and Turcs) for 5 years.
* Maximum of 5.000 asylumseekers per region.
* New article one of the constitution: Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture must stay dominant in the Netherlands (What exactly is Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture)
* No new mosques and Islamitic schools for 5 years
* Closing of radical mosques, deport radical imams.
* Ban foreign financing of mosques
* Forbid foreign imams from preaching here, make Dutch obligatory in 'Houses of Worship' (You here it Catholics, no more latin in churches! :D)
* no voting for non-Dutchmen in communal elections.
* Texts distributed by the government should be Dutch-only.
* Abolish Double-Nationality
* No medical aid for illegals except when their life is threatened/
* Naturalisation after 10 years of no crime and must have worked the entire 10 year.
* No welfare checks for people that are here for less then 10 years.
* No immigrants allowed that have commited a crime in another country.
* No welfare checks will be send outside of the EU
* No burqa in public areas
* Outlaw scarfs for state officials
* Hell people who want to get back to their own country.
V. Direct democracy: more power to the citizens.
* Referenda for: (1) Turkish membership EU, (2) Do we want the Euro currency? (3) Antillen in the Kingdom, jay or nay?
* Elected mayor and minister-president.
* Abolishment House of Lords
* Reduce members of parliament from 150 to 100
* Abolish 'wachtgeldregeling'.(Former ministers recieving money) and they should immediatly get another job.
* No salary-raise for members of parliament
* No financial help to political parties from the Government. ( We had this to keep political parties independant from foreign influences, primarily the American Right)
VI. Healthcare / Social Services
* More money to hospitals; less bureaucracy
* Good treatment of elderly people; they are not prisoners!
* No income tax for people who work after they're 65 years old.
* Keep the borders closed for people from Eastern Europe. (THEY'RE TAKING OUR JERBS!)
* You'll have to work for your welfare check.
* No taxation of the state pension (AOW)
VII. Infrastructure / Energy
* Moar roads, less nature!
* No toll booths, ño pay per km.
* Increase of maximumspead, even further increase when it's late.
* Second National Airport in the Flevopolder or in sea (!)
* Destroy the 'Groene Hart' (much nature) and build houses instead.
* More Nuclear Plants.
VIII. European Union / Military Interventions / Foreign Policy
* No more countries in the EU (they're already taking our jerbs!)
* If Turkey joins the EU, the Netherlands will leave.
*Abolishment Schengen-visa, Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em immigrants.
* No European Constitution, the Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em citizens.
* EU primarily economic, reduce political power.
* Abolishment European Parliament, reduce European Commision and stop paying billions to Brussel.
* Less military interventions, only NATO interventions.
* Prioritise (FOREIGN!) human rights.
* Increase efficiency army.
* Help returning soldiers.
* Fight evil terrorists like Al-Quada, Hamas etc.
IX. Animal Rights
* Include Animal Rights in the constitution
* Prison sentence for people who treat animals badly.
* After convicted over animal abuse, it is forbidden to keep any more pets.
* Introduce Animal Cops
* National alarmnumber for animal related things: 113
* Hunt down people who 'Homeslaughter' (muslims)
Agree with half of it or so, that's good enough a score for a vote. PVV or VVD. A vote on PVV is a vote on both. His program is solid and he got a good team that are all from trade, lawyers, principles, former head of immigration agency, they are all insiders.
Wilders has some VERY GOOD ideas. He wants to keep the state pension age at 65 instead of increasing it to 67.
But he got some ideas that I'm radically against. I'll try to translate the party program for y'all
That's actually bad, since the current pension system in Western Europe is unsustainable. If it was up to me, the pension age would be at least 70, since you and me are going to paying for Gramps to have a golden retirement, whilst not being able to enjoy one ourselves. His economics is as loopy as his social policy! :laugh4:
Wilders has some VERY GOOD ideas. He wants to keep the state pension age at 65 instead of increasing it to 67.
But he got some ideas that I'm radically against. I'll try to translate the party program for y'all
I. Tax Cuts
* 16 billion tax cuts for citizens and entrepreneurs (lower income tax ,less state officials, less money to the EU, less subsidies, less development aid to third world countries)
* Additional billion for pensioners
* More money to police, teachers and nurses by cutting bureaucracy/
* Lower Oil Prices by cutting some taxes on it.
* Keep the interest on your mortgage reductable from your taxes.
* Less ministries, less officials
* GNo increase of communal taxes.
Note the lack of stats about who he's going to cut; presumably brown people.
II. Criminality and Terrorism
* Higher punishment and introduction of minimum penalties
* Life sentence after three major crimes
* Abolishment of reducted punishment in case of attempted crime
* Wettelijke verplichting OM tot voordeelsontneming daders bij misdrijven
* less Task punishment
* Abolishment of aging of violent- and sexual crimes.
* No punishment reduction when the prisoner behaves well
* Introduction 'boot camps
* Frisking anytime a police officer feels like it (That's nice for an officer who sees a good-looking woman!)
* Re-introduction youth- and sexual offences police (dunno what it's called in english)
* Outlaw the Pedophile Party
* More proffesional help for victims.
* End of 'Gedoogbeleid' (legal weed): closure of these weedshops, and detect home-growers and punishment. ( War on Drugs)
* Deport (Morrocan) 'streetterrorists' and criminals who have a double passport
* Introduction administrative detention in case of terrotism (?)
* Ten years no welfare checks in case of fraud.
* Non-Dutchmen who commit a crime here are to be deported.
* Agression against police and ambulance personel: +1/3 higher minimumpunishment en 1/3 higher maximumpunishment
* Squatting ban
* Reorganisation police: from 26 to 4 departments (North, East, South and West?)
Government policy on crime shouldn't just be about punishment.
* Meer aandacht voor onderwijs, gezin en opvoeding kinderen: veilige scholen, kwaliteitsverbetering lerarenopleiding, normen en waarden terug in gezin en onderwijs, ouders meer verantwoordelijk voor crimineel gedrag van hun minderjarige kinderen (waar van toepassing ook als het gaat om hun eigen verblijfsstatus)
* National bias in history (WTF! You can't change history to your liking! Let's lynch Wilders! Argh!)
* Smaller Schools
* Abolishment VMBO (School for dumb people), reintroduction ambachts(schools where you learn to bake if you want to become a baker, where you learn to build a wall if you want to be a construction worker etc.)- and 'punishmentschools'
* Social service for people in High School (3 months visiting old people etc.)
* Freedom of education, but no more Islamitic schools for 5 years.
* No more waiting list for youth care
Apart from the national bias thing, these look relatively sensible.
* Immigrationstop for non-western foreigners (Morrocans and Turcs) for 5 years.
* Maximum of 5.000 asylumseekers per region.
* New article one of the constitution: Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture must stay dominant in the Netherlands (What exactly is Christian/Jewish/Humanist culture)
* No new mosques and Islamitic schools for 5 years
* Closing of radical mosques, deport radical imams.
* Ban foreign financing of mosques
* Forbid foreign imams from preaching here, make Dutch obligatory in 'Houses of Worship' (You here it Catholics, no more latin in churches! :D)
* no voting for non-Dutchmen in communal elections.
* Texts distributed by the government should be Dutch-only.
* Abolish Double-Nationality
* No medical aid for illegals except when their life is threatened/
* Naturalisation after 10 years of no crime and must have worked the entire 10 year.
* No welfare checks for people that are here for less then 10 years.
* No immigrants allowed that have commited a crime in another country.
* No welfare checks will be send outside of the EU
* No burqa in public areas
* Outlaw scarfs for state officials
* Hell people who want to get back to their own country.
)
He doesn't seem to have any ideas for assimalation of immigrants, other than outlawing everything which is non-Dutch, effectively making second class citizens out of Muslims.
V. Direct democracy: more power to the citizens.
* Referenda for: (1) Turkish membership EU, (2) Do we want the Euro currency? (3) Antillen in the Kingdom, jay or nay?
* Elected mayor and minister-president.
* Abolishment House of Lords
* Reduce members of parliament from 150 to 100
* Abolish 'wachtgeldregeling'.(Former ministers recieving money) and they should immediatly get another job.
* No salary-raise for members of parliament
* No financial help to political parties from the Government. ( We had this to keep political parties independant from foreign influences, primarily the American Right)
)
It's intersting to note the common theme of direct democracy between right-wing populist parties in the UK and the Netherlands. UKIP and the BNP love direct democracy, as it permanently entrenches the knee-jerk mob-ocracy than right wing populism thrives on within the government. Pinochet in Chile was especially fond of referenda.
VI. Healthcare / Social Services
* More money to hospitals; less bureaucracy
* Good treatment of elderly people; they are not prisoners!
* No income tax for people who work after they're 65 years old.
* Keep the borders closed for people from Eastern Europe. (THEY'RE TAKING OUR JERBS!)
* You'll have to work for your welfare check.
* No taxation of the state pension (AOW)
)
He's targeting pensiopners a lot. Is that his core support?
VII. Infrastructure / Energy
* Moar roads, less nature!
* No toll booths, ño pay per km.
* Increase of maximumspead, even further increase when it's late.
* Second National Airport in the Flevopolder or in sea (!)
* Destroy the 'Groene Hart' (much nature) and build houses instead.
* More Nuclear Plants.
)
It's often more cost efficient to spend money repairing roads than building new ones. Although I do like the Nuclear Power Plants.
VIII. European Union / Military Interventions / Foreign Policy
* No more countries in the EU (they're already taking our jerbs!)
* If Turkey joins the EU, the Netherlands will leave.
*Abolishment Schengen-visa, Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em immigrants.
* No European Constitution, the Netherlands knows how to deal with 'em citizens.
* EU primarily economic, reduce political power.
* Abolishment European Parliament, reduce European Commision and stop paying billions to Brussel.
* Less military interventions, only NATO interventions.
* Prioritise (FOREIGN!) human rights.
* Increase efficiency army.
* Help returning soldiers.
* Fight evil terrorists like Al-Quada, Hamas etc.
)
Everyone already knows my position on the EU, so I disagree with most of this. I'm guessing that his ultra-efficient army would have fought back at Srebrenica, eh?
IX. Animal Rights
* Include Animal Rights in the constitution
* Prison sentence for people who treat animals badly.
* After convicted over animal abuse, it is forbidden to keep any more pets.
* Introduce Animal Cops
* National alarmnumber for animal related things: 113
* Hunt down people who 'Homeslaughter' (muslims)
He treats animals better than people! :laugh4:
But what does that have to do with painting elephant purple so they can take tango lessons between 7 and 8 on sundays?
I was talking about the Wilders Lovefest aspect of the party, since as it's obvious that it is a bigoted party, then there was no need for me to elaborate further.
[QUOTE]the labour party in Britain made the same stupid mistake, as did the Lib-Dems, which is why C2 voters in the industrial heartlands switched to the Cons in large numbers and partly why the Lib-Dem surge disappeared. QUOTE]
I trust my political parties to have policies which they believe in, and think will make good policies, rather than ones which will pick up easy votes. The Lib-Dems immigration policy was the most rational by far, but they were on the wrong side of public opinion. I'd also say that the main reason the surge disappeared was that progressives were scared the Tories would get in, so they voted Labour instead.
Furunculus
05-24-2010, 12:18
I trust my political parties to have policies which they believe in, and think will make good policies, rather than ones which will pick up easy votes. The Lib-Dems immigration policy was the most rational by far, but they were on the wrong side of public opinion. I'd also say that the main reason the surge disappeared was that progressives were scared the Tories would get in, so they voted Labour instead.
that's fine as long as you don't expect your fine and 'principled' politicians to ever get into power, the public after all tend to take a dim view of public servants that don't serve the public but rather themselves.
If we limit immigration and the burden it puts on our treassurie money in spades, easy as that. Can't have a wellfarestate and unlimitd immigration. Less money to leftist hobby's more money for the people who pay it all. We don't owe them anything. Political refugees are welcome, even the blacks imagine that.
Rhyfelwyr
05-24-2010, 12:33
* Outlaw the Pedophile Party
Um... there's a pedophile party???
Um... there's a pedophile party???
They tried to start one, didn't work out.
It was a party who wanted the age of consent reduced to 12, in the Netherlands.
Vladimir
05-24-2010, 18:17
It was a party who wanted the age of consent reduced to 12, in the Netherlands.
We have a party that says they're going to hell! :grin:
Wilders sounds a bit like a National Socialist. And an animal socialist as well, there were a few nice ideas in that program but overall he is probably nuts.
Megas Methuselah
05-24-2010, 18:37
Wow. He's actually gettin some support? You people are scary.
Skullheadhq
05-24-2010, 19:18
Less money to leftist hobby's
Classical music concerts, museums, work of art, nature, festivals, libraries, public TV channels, developmet aid, charity subsidy and the list goes on and on. In short: everything that doesn't involve working your *** off. That would be nice, go with pension and then... find out there is nothing to do.
He's targeting pensiopners a lot. Is that his core support?
Pensioners are the ones who are most scared. He works with fear. Fear for muslims, fear for criminals, fear for eastern europeans (they might take jerbs) and fear for the EU, fear for almost everything that's not Dutch. So yes, Pensioners are a group he's targeting, and pensioners are a very great group in the Netherlands.
Besides, most pensioners are VERY traditionalistic. Just look at his new article one and his new proposed National History bias.
Louis VI the Fat
05-24-2010, 19:27
Wow. He's actually gettin some support? You people are scary.No, the Dutch are extraordinarily tolerant and magnanimous.
Tiny and densily populated the Netherlands has accepted more non-Western refugees last year than the whole of developed East Asia has done the past half a century. This is because Western countries are the only ones who don't have a 'natives first' policy.
Western countries are also the only ones who meet development aid standards. Japan pays as much as tiny, underdeveloped Portugal.
Seamus Fermanagh
05-24-2010, 19:33
No, the Dutch are extraordinarily tolerant and magnanimous.
Tiny and densily populated the Netherlands has accepted more non-Western refugees last year than the whole of developed East Asia has done the past half a century. This is because Western countries are the only ones who don't have a 'natives first' policy.
Western countries are also the only ones who meet development aid standards. Japan pays as much as tiny, underdeveloped Portugal.
It's that dratted lingering influence of Christian charity. If we'd put the kibosh on that, we'd be able to be rationally focused on ourselves first and tell the others to go hang unless there was some long-term benefit to us.
Louis VI the Fat
05-24-2010, 19:41
It's that dratted lingering influence of Christian charity. If we'd put the kibosh on that, we'd be able to be rationally focused on ourselves first and tell the others to go hang unless there was some long-term benefit to us.Drats! I'm being cornered!
Erm...let's see. How do I wriggle myself out of this perilous position?
Back when we were Christian, we fought colonial wars. Post-Christian Europe is enlightened. Yeah.
Strike For The South
05-24-2010, 22:09
I dunno. How did/would you deal with it? My fear is that people will start dealing with it the harsh way.
I'm perfectly aware that the problems you cited have always existed. Been there done that. For all I know, there probably was just as much violence in Paris in 1910 than there is in 2010 (though I'd say violence was more "classy" back then, for a lack of better word). The new thing is that this violence is now mostly coming from a very caracteristic and noticeable part of the population.
You can't hate white people when you're muggled by a white dude if you're white yourself. But it is all too easy to start hating brown people if you're muggled by brown people.
My family has waited it out since we started letting the Germans in I feel we will continue to do so.
Viloence is never classy. Your post reminds of an oft rpeated theme here in the states. People are longing for the days where Irish and Italian gangs ran things instead of the newer Russian and Hispanic ones claiming they were classier. I blame the media for romanticisizing these things in movies like the Godfather. Trust me its not as bad as it seems
Pensioners are the ones who are most scared. He works with fear. Fear for muslims, fear for criminals, fear for eastern europeans (they might take jerbs) and fear for the EU, fear for almost everything that's not Dutch.
Every time I read the word fear I want to claw eyeballs. Spreading fear is the grand tactic of the left when real issues are brought up. The fear is on the left, the fear of being wrong, and they will do anything to wrap the sum around the outcome. And now they scream 'no solutions' (which is odd as there are no problems) , yes solutions just not dream-proof solutions.
Furunculus
05-25-2010, 08:17
fear certainly seems to be the driving force behind the euro.
fear that western liberalism will whither unless everyone corrals behind a big iron curtain.
fear that western social support will go the same way.
fear that western economic strength is ineluctably waning.
Britain has no need of this fear, it is debilitating, and will hinder the continued pursuit of all three of those things.
Fear certainly is the driving force of the hate-mongering against Wilders. It's even worse then it was with Fortuyn, thanks to the fearmongers the lemmings were running in circles shrieking the exact things as they do now. Even poor little Anne Frank had a day off from chimney. Well several. They see fascism everywhere but don't recognise it when they brush their teeth.
Skullheadhq
05-25-2010, 15:29
@Fragony
How can you justify that Wilders wants a national bias in history? Isn't that a corruption of history? It isn't even history, it's indoctrination.
Spare me that, how can you consider the dutch educational system anything but.
Ser Clegane
05-26-2010, 08:09
@Fragony
How can you justify that Wilders wants a national bias in history? Isn't that a corruption of history? It isn't even history, it's indoctrination.
Just out of curiosity - what do you mean by "national bias"?
Just out of curiosity - what do you mean by "national bias"?
'Historical canon', ironically only makes us look worse. The Dutch Indonesian war wasn't pretty, about time I hate having to point out that we killed 150.000 Indonesians in the fifties. Our much beloved royal family is going to hate it.
Ser Clegane
05-26-2010, 08:52
So "national bias" only means overproportional focus on national history (which seems to be pretty normal in every country) as opposed to "distorting" history?
Depending on the extent to which this "bias" would be implemented, this would seem like a minor point to worry about...
Kadagar_AV
05-26-2010, 09:27
It's that dratted lingering influence of Christian charity. If we'd put the kibosh on that, we'd be able to be rationally focused on ourselves first and tell the others to go hang unless there was some long-term benefit to us.
Yeah... I wish we could go back to crusading against Spain when they dared to say that Jesus was a mortal. Heck, give the crusades back generally, nothing stirs the blood like a good old war over some Islamic fantasy being against some Christian fantasy being (who has God on their side now we have NUKES! Huh? Take that you bad people interpreting some fantasy being in some other way).
Why even go to the crusades, we are more than happy to duke it out over vague differences in Christian belief. Not saying the crusades were not waged against Christians of course, have a look at the sacking of Constantinople or the eradication of the Katars.
So "national bias" only means overproportional focus on national history (which seems to be pretty normal in every country) as opposed to "distorting" history?
Depending on the extent to which this "bias" would be implemented, this would seem like a minor point to worry about...
I would argue against this. As history teacher, I might be rather biased.
History is the human memory, and we should try to keep political fidgeting to a minimum. How can we learn from history, if we change it to suit our modern day perspective?
It only means a minimum of national history, any is too much for some, turns us into Hitler. I like to call it the self-denying prophecy.
Vladimir
05-26-2010, 11:31
I would argue against this. As history teacher, I might be rather biased.
History is the human memory, and we should try to keep political fidgeting to a minimum. How can we learn from history, if we change it to suit our modern day perspective?
If you are a history teacher you would know that much of history is interpretation based on discovery, not "fact". History is a soft science and there is room for ambiguity. This is where bias creeps in and we are all biased.
Ser Clegane
05-26-2010, 11:55
I would argue against this. As history teacher, I might be rather biased.
History is the human memory, and we should try to keep political fidgeting to a minimum. How can we learn from history, if we change it to suit our modern day perspective?
Still not sure if we are talking about the same thing.
"Fidgeting" implies to me that a given topic is covered with a certain biased view, e.g. facts might be presented very selectively to convey a preferred political message.
From Skullheadhq's post it is not clear to me if that is what he refers to. I would be somewhat surprised if that is what a party would openly advertise as its intent
OTOH you can also have a "national bias" by e.g., dedicating 25% of the curriculum to Dutch history. While you can also argue that this "distorts" history it is certainly something that is quite common and done most countries that I am aware of (I doubt that Asian history plays a significant role in most European schools) - and to a degree I think it also makes a lot of sense to pay special attention to the history of (or the impact of historical events on) your own country.
I really don't know what he means, but maybe it makes you understand me better once he has explained himself.
Seamus Fermanagh
05-26-2010, 13:41
Yeah... I wish we could go back to crusading against Spain when they dared to say that Jesus was a mortal. Heck, give the crusades back generally, nothing stirs the blood like a good old war over some Islamic fantasy being against some Christian fantasy being (who has God on their side now we have NUKES! Huh? Take that you bad people interpreting some fantasy being in some other way).
Why even go to the crusades, we are more than happy to duke it out over vague differences in Christian belief. Not saying the crusades were not waged against Christians of course, have a look at the sacking of Constantinople or the eradication of the Katars. ....
I've been a knight for more than a decade now and I have yet to see anyone call for us to take up the sword to slay the infidel. I guess I must be attending the wrong council meetings or something. You might wish to give the Catholic church credit for SOME advancement in thinking over the last nine centuries -- at least acknowledge that we don't require women to wear hats in church anymore for example.
All kidding aside, you are aware that -- should your hypothetical best world come about and we all wake up on the morrow convinced that religion is nothing but poorly written fiction -- humanity will simply find some other set of differences over which we can kill one another and exert power? I do hope you're not "polyanna" enough to think it would invoke some panacea effect.
Tellos Athenaios
05-26-2010, 16:59
I really don't know what he means, but maybe it makes you understand me better once he has explained himself.
Well more national bias amounts to what exactly? Learning about the Cultuurstelsel and the founding of Singapore instead of Enlightment or the Concert of Europe?
Well more national bias amounts to what exactly? Learning about the Cultuurstelsel and the founding of Singapore instead of Enlightment or the Concert of Europe?
Why do you call it bias, the knowledge of the Netherlands is pathetic. Nothing wrong with at least a bit of it, completely normal in other country's but here the armchair-worldcitizens start hissing.
Tellos Athenaios
05-26-2010, 18:14
FYI: I didn't coin that term. It's just convenient to stick to the same vocabulary as that which others are using for describing something I am not sure I understand what they mean?
The knowledge of the Netherlands is such that most of it boils down to the fact everyone else is more powerful and more important as long as everyone else consists of the UK, France and Germany; and later the USA. Thus you can't understand the Dutch history without understanding the other countries a little, too.
Since history classes have a tendency to focus on 19th and 20th century history this means you can either focus on a lot of internal affairs that make little sense without understanding the wider world (how to understand the Patriotten movement without understanding contemporary events and philosophers from France and England?); or you can discuss the wider world but concede that the Netherlands got firmly pushed to the sideline by the other powers in the 18th century and thus focus on events largely centering around other countries.
Of course but it's not a major in Dutch history. I see no harm in it.
What are the Netherlands anyway?
Louis VI the Fat
05-29-2010, 21:53
What are the Netherlands anyway?The Netherlands? Washed up sediment of French rivers.
Which means it is French soil, thus technically France.
Seeing as how it is exceedingly cold and especially wet, we grant the semi-amphibious natives autonomy. For now.
The Netherlands? Washed up sediment of French rivers.
Which means it is French soil, thus technically France.
Seeing as how it is exceedingly cold and especially wet, we grant the semi-amphibious natives autonomy. For now.
You are thinking of the French Speaking Belgians.
The Netherlands (Also known as the Dutch) were a big trading Empire when France was a backwater vassal state of Spain. After a few revolutions and dead aristocrats, France began to stand on its own two feet, and when a short man from Corisa came to lead them in Battle, they became one of the greatest powers of continental Europe.
That's ok, half of our awesome little swamp exists only because of throwing mud.
Furunculus
05-31-2010, 11:19
one in seven french people now consider themselves racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7786349/French-admit-they-are-racist.html
But that is hardly rubbing diversity in the faces of the right, that can't be right it simply isn't possible because it can't be true. Something has to be done, let's make the 9th of juli diversity celebration day and emphasize that that obelisk is from Egypt.
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