ProjectileStats

[PatrickNeil]

Has anyone edited "ProjectileStats.txt" yet? When the patch is installed it turns up in the main folder. Seems to allow projectiles to be edited. I've wanted to make like, a missle launcher or something, and this seem to have everything one would need.

Just wondering if anyones tested this file out yet, and to get the disucssion on it going.

Patrick

[V'ger]

Hi,

Yes, I've changed a few things in there. Not sure if all of them work correctly or not, yet. I upped the range of bows, longbows, trebuchets and mangonels. I also changed it so that trebs and mangs can pivot. That part works, I know.

[Kraxis]

Take care when upping the range of the longbows.

I upped them to 7500 (well 120 meters is not much, 150 meters much better), but then the Longbowmen could not angle the arrows high enough to actually fire them. So they walked a short distance and tried again, again and again. So I set the Velocity to 180 (up from 150) that flattened the trajectory a bit.

I also upped the shortbows and the mounted bows to 5500.

Upped the LB Accuracy to 0.75 (from 0.6) and Lethality to 0.95 (up from 0.63).
Normal bows Accuracy to 0.70 and Letality to 0.75.
Mounted bows Accuracy to 0.6 (from 0.4) and Letality to 0.75.
But I did this just today so I haven't really noticed too much of a difference, but the range is good.

Also gave both Nahptas and javelins a slight up in range so they actually can be used with Skirmish on.

I also gave all dedicated archers 48 arrows (up from 28) and hybrid units (such as Ottomans and Jannisary Inf) stayed at 28.

[Fearless]

what file do I look in to increase the arrows?

[V'ger]

Hi,

You'll find ammo (arrows) in the crusader_prod11.txt file. Just look for ammo and then edit the appropriate units.

[GilJaysmith]

A couple of notes on the projectiles file:

Range is the range within which the shooting cursor turns green (modified by the relative height of the firing unit and the target point). If the shooting cursor is green then the unit can attempt to fire, but all that means is that the individual men start to look for targets and firing solutions.

Velocity is what determines the actual maximum range. If I remember rightly, the maximum range is the velocity squared and then divided by four, or thereabouts.

In practice we use Range to limit the firing range of projectiles which are fired at high speed: compare the stats for arrows and crossbow bolts to see this in action.

TryHigh determines whether the firer can try a plunging shot if the flat shot is blocked. (For most shots there are two firing solutions, one flat and one high, either side of 45 degrees).

The comment about minAngle and maxAngle is wrong... it says that 64 is straight up, but actually these numbers are in degrees, so 0 is flat and 90 is straight up. (We have numerous internal camera and angle systems - one comment in the source code reads "Murder on the Orientation Express" - and one of them translates a full circle into 256 units, thus 90 degrees is 64 units.)

Any other questions, fire away (ahem).

Gil ~ CA

[Fearless]

Thank you V'ger looks like I shall be a little busy this weekend tweaking the projectiles. I have always felt that the casulties were rather low. A thankyou also Giljaysmith for your threepence worth

[Caledfwlch]

Increased the longbows rate of fire a little. Apparently, at their longer range, a good longbowman could have up to four arrows in the air at once.
Don't forget, these guys had to train on a daily basis by law during peacetime.

[Fearless]

Hey Caledfwlch I see your a Senior Patron......How come with only 15 posts. Who did you Bribe?

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Nov. 14 2002,04:22)]Range is the range within which the shooting cursor turns green (modified by the relative height of the firing unit and the target point). If the shooting cursor is green then the unit can attempt to fire, but all that means is that the individual men start to look for targets and firing solutions.

Velocity is what determines the actual maximum range. If I remember rightly, the maximum range is the velocity squared and then divided by four, or thereabouts.

In practice we use Range to limit the firing range of projectiles which are fired at high speed: compare the stats for arrows and crossbow bolts to see this in action.

TryHigh determines whether the firer can try a plunging shot if the flat shot is blocked. (For most shots there are two firing solutions, one flat and one high, either side of 45 degrees).

The comment about minAngle and maxAngle is wrong... it says that 64 is straight up, but actually these numbers are in degrees, so 0 is flat and 90 is straight up. (We have numerous internal camera and angle systems - one comment in the source code reads "Murder on the Orientation Express" - and one of them translates a full circle into 256 units, thus 90 degrees is 64 units.)

Any other questions, fire away (ahem).

Gil ~ CA
Thanks Gil... Now I know I can set the LB Velocity to 175... Would prefer that as 180 is far too fast, and a far too shallow angle.

But what do you mean about comparing teh stats for arrows and crossbow bolts? It is possible to send bolts out to a range of 15600, what that what you meant?

About try high... when does that apply? In melee for instance or does friendly units not count as something blockin? 57 degrees is not much, it would send normal bows (at 5000) out to a range of about 4000...

[Caledfwlch]

Don't know Fearless, still quite chuffed though. At least now I can take a more active part in the Dungeon. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Nov. 14 2002,04:22)]The comment about minAngle and maxAngle is wrong... it says that 64 is straight up, but actually these numbers are in degrees, so 0 is flat and 90 is straight up. (We have numerous internal camera and angle systems - one comment in the source code reads "Murder on the Orientation Express" - and one of them translates a full circle into 256 units, thus 90 degrees is 64 units.)

Any other questions, fire away (ahem).

Gil ~ CA
Gil,
when you say it's wrong, do you mean
that if I put 90 I will get 90 degrees?

Or do you mean the 64 will give me
straight up and just the definition
is faulty in that it does not explain this?


Thanks
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I hope this one hits home. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Btw is this a real word "computationally" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

Opps. Edited after clarification by GilJaysmith below.

[Kraxis]

Yeah I remember sevearal battles where I found bodies far behind the battleareas (in STW).

I kind of expected the Arbs to make kills behind the targets as well, while not as bad. But I don't seem to see any kills in numbers more than 3 if the target is not intended. Behind the target I have yet to see kills, so perhaps there is a perameter that lowers lethality beyond the target.

I must say I'm rather sad that the Longbows have to have such a high Velocity, it lowers their lethality... I thought it would go up, but apparently not...

I did a test with a fully shielded Hospitaller Foot Knights unit. That was with speed 200, and all the arrows hit a very low angle, and because of the increased Accuracy I could hear a massive *CLANG* every time a volley hit. That made me wonder if the Lethality was too small, as only one or two would fall every time.

By the way, were the Longbows lowered in rate to make them more durable? The 4 cycles of animations is the same for all bows.

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

I think lethality is a constant. You might get reduced effectiveness of archers at short range as you raise the speed parameter. That was what happened in WE/MI, due to the tendency of the archer to overshoot the target on low trajectories. At long range, you have reduced kills because the positional error due to accuracy is greater. I think you have to increase the accuracy to maintain the same kills/volley at longer range. That will help make up for the lost effectiveness at short range as well.

[Kraxis]

Well, my tests have showed that my modded Longbows now kill a lot more than before in the span of the unit closing with them, but not impossibly much. The range obviously adds a lot to this but I changed the other stats enough to let every volley kill as many as before (and perhaps more).
One positive sideeffect of the higher speed is lesser overshooting of advancing units.

But I'm sure that Lethality is the way to increase the killrate if you up speed, that is where the x-bows and arbs are vastly different from bows. Also it is limited how much you can up accuracy, you can ony make every arrow hit, but you can theoretically make every arrow kill two men.

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

How can one arrow kill two men?

[GilJaysmith]

There's no limit on how far a projectile will travel if it has a high enough velocity. This and the value of gravity and the angle at which it's fired determine its trajectory; the first solid thing it hits will stop it.

E.g. crossbows have a range of 5000 and a velocity of 250 whereas longbows have a range of 6000 and a velocity of 150. Therefore, longbow units will be able to start firing earlier at an approaching target, but crossbow bolts will travel further. On the other hand, longbows can 'try high', while crossbows can't. So if there's something in the way, e.g. a building or wall, longbows can try a high angle.

(To clarify for whoever asked this: you use 90 to mean straight up and 0 to mean flat in these angles. The comment is wrong in the sense that the projectile code doesn't use the 0-64 angle system, it uses proper degrees.)

When someone wants to take a shot, they try the 'low' firing solution. The code projects 24 frames along this solution to see what it hits. If it hits the intended target (or doesn't hit anything) then it assumes this solution will be OK, and takes the shot. If it hits anything during this 24-frame lookahead, the shooter will evaluate the 'high' firing solution if the projectile type allows it. The same lookahead is performed and if the projectile still doesn't look like it'll hit the target then the shooter doesn't take the shot. This is why you often see shooters going into their 'firing' animation but nothing being fired.

The 'low' firing solution relies on using the projectile's speed to get it to the target before it hits the ground. The 'high' solution relies on 'plunging' the projectile. The shooter will only use a firing solution if it's within the min and max angles for that projectile type, e.g. longbowmen won't fire any steeper than 57 degrees into the air.

Just a little glimpse of the magic :)

Gil ~ CA

[Puzz3D]

Ok. Thanks for clarification on that Gil.

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] ](To clarify for whoever asked this: you use 90 to mean straight up and 0 to mean flat in these angles. The comment is wrong in the sense that the projectile code doesn't use the 0-64 angle system, it uses proper degrees.)

Thank's Gil

Lord Krazy
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Nov. 15 2002,10:22)]Kraxis,

How can one arrow kill two men?
Is this a trick question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Puzz3D]

Lord Krazy,

Kraxis said one arrow can kill two men. I don't see how that is possible.

[Whitey]

unless the stats are changed to arrows penetrate humans (like seige weapon missiles)

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Nov. 17 2002,08:14)]Lord Krazy,

Kraxis said one arrow can kill two men. I don't see how that is possible.
He said
Quote[/b] ]you can theoretically make every arrow kill two men.
I don't know what the theory is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Btw it says the name is only for a reference
in regards to the projectile.
This to me, implies you can change it.

Also has anyone used ningastars?

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Latro]

So where is the link between 'MTLG' in the crusaders file and the table entry for 'mountedlongbow' in projectile stats.txt ? How are these two coupled?

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (Latro @ Nov. 18 2002,06:55)]So where is the link between 'MTLG' in the crusaders file and the table entry for 'mountedlongbow' in projectile stats.txt ? How are these two coupled?
If you open it in excel
row 53
mountedlongbow

after shortbow
before arquebus

It is the fourth row of stats.
they seem to be linked by order not by name.
so you could call it a neutron bomb if you wanted.
This is conjecture based on the what it said
about names in the names description.
if you want a real answere wait for Gil
to reply.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Nov. 18 2002,10:55)]It is the fourth row of stats.
they seem to be linked by order not by name.
so you could call it a neutron bomb if you wanted.
Yep, the projectile stats are in the same order as the projectile type enum, so MLTG (for example) translates to a particular row in projectilestats.txt. Swap the rows around to get some amusing results.

Gil ~ CA

[Kraellin]

and if you really want a hoot, raise the range of naptha throwers to about 20000 and their elevation angle to about 75 and increase significantly their destructive perimeter. nothing like good old napalm to thwart an enemy :)

K.

[scsscsfanfan]

will there be anyway to add new porjectile types?

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (scsscsfanfan @ Nov. 18 2002,17:22)]will there be anyway to add new porjectile types?
Afraid not. The hardcoding of the order also means that there's no way to extend it :( Not very mod-friendly... sorry.

Gil ~ CA

[PatrickNeil]

Bump for SmokWawelski. Maybe sticky-worthy? I dunno.

Patrick

[Lion King]

most certainly sticky it plz
i dont know how you CA guys say its not mod-friendly it took me 15 minutes to figure out how to make a mod, change all those units and projectile stats, textures sounds and campaign map it is VERY mod friendly, all those txt files have comments with loads of detail, they are a modding manual
of course, there are a few questions to be raised:
where is the file with the images of the arrows/naphta/javelins/explosions?
is there a way to make arrows/cannonballs explode like naphta bombs? i really need some modern artillery and the grenades launchers i made simply wont do alone

[Lion King]

oh, BTW, i posted in another thread what i know about this file so far, it might be helpful...

Click here for the topic (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=3625)

[Kraxis]

Ahhh... I have to return here.

When I said one arrow could theretically kill two men it counted on the arrow penetrating the first man. Not that I expected it could at any time, but you could make the Lethality go up to make it a kill every time as well. It was more a statement of Lethality is more important til kill than accuracy than it was a statement of fact.

I have modded the ninjastar to be a composite bow, works very nicely.

[Lion King]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Dec. 22 2002,12:20)]Ahhh... I have to return here.

When I said one arrow could theretically kill two men it counted on the arrow penetrating the first man. Not that I expected it could at any time, but you could make the Lethality go up to make it a kill every time as well. It was more a statement of Lethality is more important til kill than accuracy than it was a statement of fact.

I have modded the ninjastar to be a composite bow, works very nicely.
What do you write on the projectile value in the crusaders_unit_prod11.txt?
I only see normal stuff like GREN, XBOW, etc. no ninja star...