What does the Confederate flag represent?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Is it just for racists/white supremacists?

Or is it a legitimate expression of the southern identity? Does it stand for other things such as states' rights, and the whole southern/Dixie culture which has historically been pretty different to that of the north.

I have it in my sig because they one of the big things they celebrate when promoting the 'Ulster-Scots' heritage is the role of Ulster-Scots settlers in the southern US. They have some nice cultural themed murals on it in Northern Ireland, not just for the southern US, I put a few below:

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3718/ulsterconfederatemural.jpg (https://img156.imageshack.us/i/ulsterconfederatemural.jpg/)

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9629/scotsirishmural.jpg (https://img153.imageshack.us/i/scotsirishmural.jpg/)

https://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7431/ulstersailswest.jpg (https://img714.imageshack.us/i/ulstersailswest.jpg/)

Then again, the Confederate flag is definitely used by nastier elements. There was a really funny picture of one guy who had a confederate flag on his car, with a picture below of 9/11 which said "Everything I need to know about Islam I learned on 9/11" but I can't find it now. :furious3:

In any case, what are the thoughts on the confederate flag? :juggle2:

[Hax]

I like the colours. I have one. I also have a Japanese navy flag, as well as the Tibetan flag and the International Buddhist flag. I like flags and their colours. The Confederate flag represents the confederacy, nothing more. Any connotations that one might one to give to is a person's own choice.

I don't get the whole obsession with flags as them representing some mystic magical voodoo power, which seems to be quite rife in the United States as well. Seriously, relax.

The flag I like best is Canada's, though. Then again, Canada is awesome.

[ajaxfetish]

I've known a fair number of southerners. Most, maybe all, of them had a thing for the confederate flag. They definitely aren't all racists and bigots. My hometown's college mascot was the rebels, and for ages they had a big confederate flag displayed on the hill overlooking town (St. George is nicknamed Utah's Dixie, so they've got a number of things with a southern theme, which can confuse some people). I don't think they fly it anymore, and I think they've backed away from the rebels theme in general. I think nationwide, as concern for racial tensions has increased, there's been a tendency to avoid association with the stars and bars, but I'm not sure how much effect that's had in the south itself.

For me, I don't think of it as a racist symbol, but as a southern pride symbol. I do recognize, however, that many racists have southern pride. I guess it's a much milder version of the swastika effect. The swastika's got more meaning than just as a Nazi symbol, and good connotations at that, but it's hard to see it without associating it with evil. I hope the southern flag won't go that far, but it certainly can have some ugly connotations.

Ajax

[Centurion1]

i dont mess with southerners and their symbols. I once saw a man make a reconstruction vote in front of a missiippian. it was not pleasant.

let me put it this way. They think they signed a peace treaty at Appomattox. Brother, that was not a peace treaty it was a bow down and obey order, but once again don't tell them that.

do i think that the stars and bars is a racist symbol? No. would i fly one? No, even though ive spent a large portion of my life in the south and like barbecue, guns, say yall, etc. But i dont begrudge thme it either.

[PanzerJaeger]

It is the battle flag that many brave men fought and died under and a symbol of cultural heritage and pride. The blacks have stigmatized it, as they like to do.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As PJ notes, the flag popularly associated with the Confederacy was only a battle flag adopted part way through in order to minimize "blue on blue" concerns.

It's connotations are many. Many Southerners and those who enjoy the "romance" of the Old South consider it a point of pride for the reasons PJ notes above. For others, notably those of African descent, it is a symbol of oppression and slavery.

Relatively few of those who display the "confederate flag" would be able to pick out the actual flag of the confederacy, the "Stars and Bars."

[Beskar]

The flag of the confederacy is the one which looks like a cross of the EU's flag with Austria's, USA styled.


It is the battle flag that many brave men fought and died under and a symbol of cultural heritage and pride. The blacks have stigmatized it, as they like to do.

https://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4435/pajamas.gif

[Hax]

Yeah, that flag is actually the flag of the army of Tennessee.

[PanzerJaeger]

The flag of the confederacy is the one which looks like a cross of the EU's flag with Austria's, USA styled.



https://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4435/pajamas.gif

Not a very well thought out cartoon. What people would the hypothetical African be refering to?

[Hax]

The blacks have stigmatized it, as they like to do.

Wow, generalisation much?

[Beskar]

Not a very well thought out cartoon. What people would the hypothetical African be refering to?

What people would the hypothetical Confederate be refering to? I doubt it is any of the Unionists or any of the 'Africans'.

Don't be hypocritical. I randomly saw that cartoon and it just fitted your post to a tee. (It came up when I searched: Confederate Flag (in Google))

[Brenus]

“Is it just for racists/white supremacists?” Just a piece of textile…:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Beskar]

“Is it just for racists/white supremacists?” Just a piece of textile…:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

So is the Burka.

Edit: In reference to a whole rant where Brenus attacked anyone who considered a burka a piece of clothing(which is a piece of texile, just like he said about a flag) inciting numerous Godwin's Law indications, saying that forum members who even remotely suggested that 'banning just a piece of texile' was a little silly were advocates of oppressing females and domestic violence/control.

Edit2: Rhyfelwyr's reaction is the opposite of mine... is Brenus calling it "just a piece of texile" or he is saying it sarcastically? I am reading it as the first, because he picks out the question asking if it is for racists, and he seems to mock the question, as if to say "it is just a piece of textile... :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: "

[Brenus]

“So is the Burka.” So I was told:book:

[Rhyfelwyr]

“Is it just for racists/white supremacists?” Just a piece of textile…:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Here we go again!

Just as well I didn't display the stars and bars in my sig in the past, since IIRC you said in your younger years you wanted to take people who displayed symbols of oppression down an alley and shoot them...

[AlexanderSextus]

The confederate flag represents the enslavement and oppression of an entire people. Don't give me that "State's Rights" crap. "State's Rights", yeah, the rights of the states to keep and own slaves. The Confederacy revolted because they wanted to keep black people in bondage, and that's it.

[Skullheadhq]

Isn't this the confederate flag?

Yes it is, but it is also a hotlinked picture. Please host it yourself. BG

[AlexanderSextus]

I'm not against the flag itself, I don't care if you have one, but don't try to make it seem like it represents something cheery and happy and patriotic, because it doesn't.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The confederate flag seems to have changed continually throughout the course of the civil war. I borrowed a pic from the wiki page which shows the different flags.

https://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2151/471pxourheroesandourfla.jpg (https://img687.imageshack.us/i/471pxourheroesandourfla.jpg/)

Apparently the red bar on the bottom-right one was added to show the connection with France. I'm sure they'll appreciate the thought of appearing on a flag which to some degree at least support(ed/s) slavery. :laugh4:

[Strike For The South]

“So is the Burka.” So I was told:book:

It is and people can fly it if they choose.

However I don't like the flag and you will never see me flying it or putting it anywhere.

It represents opperision of blacks and of poor whites all to perpetuarte a dead economic system.

Nearly 20% of Southern Men (of fighting age) died. They were trying to stop the norths cultrual and economic imperialism and instead put it on steroids. The flag represents nothing but failure, sensless loss of life and the last gasp of a black mark on American history.

I hate that flag

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well, what if someone had a swastika bumper sticker, but it wasn't because he disliked Jewish people, he just had "German pride" and admired the men who had died fighting for Germany. Isn't the natural question "Why!?".

The Confederacy was very different from Nazi germany. But the same principle seems to apply--it's good when people aren't flying it for racist reasons, but "southern pride" is not necessarily a good reason either.

[Brenus]

“you said in your younger years you wanted to take people who displayed symbols of oppression down an alley and shoot them...”
Did I? I do remember saying I was ready to kill the Nazi on the spot, and ban them for political life is actually a sign of softening from my side.

To be clear, I am not against the symbols of oppression, I am against oppression.
I had one T-shirt with a confederate flag stating: “Lee surrender, I didn’t”.
I bought it during my trip in USA. When you can convince me that the swastika (e.g. in India) is a Solar Wheel I don’t go for it.

Perhaps it is a special gift but I am able to see when someone uses for bad purposes a perfectly neutral piece of clothing or cloth.
I don’t hind behind principals or laws in order to defend oppression.
It was illegal to fight the German in 1941. Some did.
Strikes were illegal, working children were. It was illegal to teach slaves to read. Burkhas are just pieces of clothing.
And I was the one defending the symbolism of object, clothing and clothes…

I was just underlining your internal contradictions.
By the way, I think you have the right to have internal contradictions…

“I'm sure they'll appreciate the thought of appearing on a flag which to some degree at least support”
Perhaps it was something to do with the fact that some States were not so long time ago French (New Orleans=Nouvelle Orleans, Baton Rouge, well, it is Baton Rouge, and Boise is Boisé).

[Rhyfelwyr]

I do remember saying I was ready to kill the Nazi on the spot, and ban them for political life is actually a sign of softening from my side.

Some people might find that a bit scary...


It was illegal to fight the German in 1941. Some did.

What's with the Godwins, between this and the burqa thread...


Strikes were illegal, working children were. It was illegal to teach slaves to read. Burkhas are just pieces of clothing.
And I was the one defending the symbolism of object, clothing and clothes…

I was just underlining your internal contradictions.
By the way, I think you have the right to have internal contradictions…

Remember the issue here is different from the burqa debate. For a start, as I understand it, the opposition to the burqa was on the grounds that the burqa itself played an active role in oppressing the women that had to wear it. A flag on the other hand doesn't affect black people.

Plus, this thread isn't about saying the flag is racist and then questioning if it should be banned as a result. Instead, I'm asking how far is it used to represent racism as opposed to southern culture in general.


“I'm sure they'll appreciate the thought of appearing on a flag which to some degree at least support”
Perhaps it was something to do with the fact that some States were not so long time ago French (New Orleans=Nouvelle Orleans, Baton Rouge, well, it is Baton Rouge, and Boise is Boisé).

That was indeed the reasoning, didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

[PanzerJaeger]

What people would the hypothetical Confederate be refering to?

As stated, his ancestors. The problem with the cartoon is that no Africans that I am aware of died because of the Confederate battle flag. It came into existence in 1861 and was used rather narrowly as a battle flag until the end of the war, as the Confederacy had other national flags. So I'm not sure what the author is referring to unless it is to the Africans that fought for the South - which, I must say, would be hilariously awesome.

[Strike For The South]

As stated, his ancestors. The problem with the cartoon is that no Africans that I am aware of died because of the Confederate battle flag. It came into existence in 1861 and was used rather narrowly as a battle flag until the end of the war, as the Confederacy had other national flags. So I'm not sure what the author is referring to unless it is to the Africans that fought for the South - which, I must say, would be hilariously awesome.

The Confedrate flag represents an entire system predicated on the backs of the enslaved.

Being obtuse is no fun PJ, you've had better work

[Skullheadhq]

unless it is to the Africans that fought for the South - which, I must say, would be hilariously awesome.

Oh that would be AWESOME, maybe as galleon slaves like the Athenians did in the Persian War?

[Strike For The South]

Oh that would be AWESOME, maybe as galleon slaves like the Athenians did in the Persian War?

Before this gets to out of hand.

There are no official records of blacks ever serving in combat roles in the south. Now there were cooks and other arcillanary postions filled by them but no black was ever put in greys

[Hosakawa Tito]

The Confedrate flag represents an entire system predicated on the backs of the enslaved.



There you have it. The rest is just picking :daisy: with the chickens.

From what I've read, no black troops fired a shot in anger for the South. However, they were used to build fortifications, roads, and such.

Interestingly, Native Americans like Stand Watie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Watie), fought for both sides.

[Beskar]

Native Americans adopted the same attitude as the white-colonists, that is being superior to the Blacks. Now-a-days, you might expect the Native Americans to be best buddies with the 'blacks' in the equality city, but in those days, it was a different era.

[Centurion1]

^ lighter is better in that time peiod look at jamaica even a slight lightening in skin tone would result in completely different social classes. fascinating stuff really.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

There you have it. The rest is just picking :daisy: with the chickens.

From what I've read, no black troops fired a shot in anger for the South. However, they were used to build fortifications, roads, and such.

Interestingly, Native Americans like Stand Watie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Watie), fought for both sides.

Some sources argue otherwise.

For example (http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm)

or

another example (http://www.37thtexas.org/html/BlkHist.html)

though there are those who disagree (http://www.bluffton.edu/~bergerd/essays/trclark.htm).


My estimate is that there were a limited number of free blacks who fought for the South, at least in the early phases of the war. It is likely that this only occurred in the Louisiana and Texas, both areas where some more formal acceptance of blacks was already present in society prior to the war.

[Megas Methuselah]

Native Americans adopted the same attitude as the white-colonists, that is being superior to the Blacks. Now-a-days, you might expect the Native Americans to be best buddies with the 'blacks' in the equality city, but in those days, it was a different era.

Interesting how you group two entire continents of vastly different peoples into one category. Very interesting.

[Centurion1]

We are if course talking about American native americans the ones who matter :clown:

[Hosakawa Tito]

Some sources argue otherwise.

For example (http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm)

or

another example (http://www.37thtexas.org/html/BlkHist.html)

though there are those who disagree (http://www.bluffton.edu/~bergerd/essays/trclark.htm).


My estimate is that there were a limited number of free blacks who fought for the South, at least in the early phases of the war. It is likely that this only occurred in the Louisiana and Texas, both areas where some more formal acceptance of blacks was already present in society prior to the war.


Black Confederates Why haven't we heard more about them? National Park Service historian, Ed Bearrs, stated, "I don't want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910"


Bearrs is, imo, the greatest living authority on the American Civil War. If he says it's so then I believe him. I've read a lot on this time period and visited many battlefield sites, and you never hear of this particular part of the history. That is a disservice to all. Thanks for the links!