Acropolis Now

[Fragony]

Shamelesly stolen title.

Greece. What to do with them. I understand that it's nice to stop working at 54 but can't do that so stop murdering bank-employees. A loan for Greece? I don't want to pay their pension and 14 month a year. Or anyone's really. It is really time the strong nations team up, Netherlans Germany & the Vikings, own currency, or we end up as the tit of the garlic-belt.

[Banquo's Ghost]

You are rapidly challenging SFTS as the king of pithy summations. :bow:

Since Greece should never have been allowed into the euro, I think it is time it was ejected - and probably several other countries too. I fear it is only a matter of time anyway, so the intelligent response from France, Germany and the Netherlands would be to take the painful decision now. Let Greece go bankrupt, which is actually better for them in the long run.

Ireland can be listed in the roll-call of shame, except we have (so far) taken our bitter medicine without anything more dramatic than a surge in beer sales.

[PanzerJaeger]

It is funny/sad for those of us in the rest of the world watching these people throw such a tantrum over their equally generous and unfunded entitlements. Hopefully it will also serve as a warning in addition to a tragic comedy.

[InsaneApache]

I hope my dads going to be ok. :embarassed:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Greece is a country on the brink. If they take the unpopular, tough route, then they will ride it out. If these populist idiots win, then the country is going straight down the pan...

[Beskar]

Greece is a country on the brink. If they take the unpopular, tough route, then they will ride it out. If these populist idiots win, then the country is going straight down the pan...

It already is. Unfortunately, Greece is known for its corruption. They don't even use bank accounts, they just take the money and hide it under the bed to fiddle the taxman.

[Husar]

I hope my dads going to be ok. :embarassed:

Let's hope his dad is okay.

Otherwise I agree with Banquo and PJ, except that I'm not against entitlements in general, just when they are entirely unfeasible, can't be financed and yopu start demanding money from others (like the greek left seems to do now) I tend to say you're going way too far and yes, they should be evicted from the eurozone and be left to deal with it themselves. Somehow a lot of people seem to forget that they lied to get in in the first place so the contract or whatever should be invalid IMO.

And that some of them kill people by burning banks over it is just....unbelievable....

[Hosakawa Tito]

It already is. Unfortunately, Greece is known for its corruption. They don't even use bank accounts, they just take the money and hide it under the bed to fiddle the taxman.

It's much worse than that. Tax evasion is like a national sport.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html)

[Kagemusha]

What is being done right now is the only thing we can do. Send economic aid to Greece, while make the restrictions so severe that the kind of spending happened there wont start ever again. The Euro needs to be saved. It is far more important then Greece.

[Fragony]

Just about everything is more important than Greece. There is also Spain, Portugal and Italy that are soon going to roll on the floor crying for candy.

[Kagemusha]

Just about everything is more important than Greece. There is also Spain, Portugal and Italy that are soon going to roll on the floor crying for candy.

And if that happends its the end of our monetary Union.

[InsaneApache]

It's much worse than that. Tax evasion is like a national sport.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html)

Another jolly little jape they use is that tax is not payable on a house until it is completed. Cue lots of three story houses with the top floor unfinished. Pater says that when you get swindled out there, it's known as being 'greeked'. Lots of nice people eh?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Another jolly little jape they use is that tax is not payable on a house until it is completed. Cue lots of three story houses with the top floor unfinished. Pater says that when you get swindled out there, it's known as being 'greeked'. Lots of nice people eh?

So is Pop living there or just visiting?

[InsaneApache]

He's lived on Corfu for most of the last decade.

[Paltmull]

My first post in the backroom! Yay!

I don't think you should blame the people of Greece too much for not paying taxes, really. The main problem is probably found in the extreme political corruption rather than in some tax-evasion- culture. For example, a Greek friend of mine told me how, when a new mayor was elected in her town, one of the mayor's relatives suddenly got a large luxurious villa that he couldn't possibly afford. It was quite obvious that it was funded with the tax payers' money. If this is common, then it's quite understandable that people aren't too eager to pay their taxes. In order to be willing to pay your taxes you have to feel that you actually contribute to society. If I knew that my money just ended up in the politicians' pockets, then i wouldn't pay taxes either.

[Beskar]

Perhaps they should riot over that then, opposed to the reforms that need to be done?

[Paltmull]

EDIT: I misread your post first, so here's the real reply:

Well, if you have such a negative picture and tradition of taxes and politicians, then it's understandable that you're not going to approve of a reform that includes even higher taxes. People probably feel that they're being punished for something that not they, but the politicians, have caused.

[Furunculus]

My first post in the backroom! Yay!

I don't think you should blame the people of Greece too much for not paying taxes, really. The main problem is probably found in the extreme political corruption rather than in some tax-evasion- culture. For example, a Greek friend of mine told me how, when a new mayor was elected in her town, one of the mayor's relatives suddenly got a large luxurious villa that he couldn't possibly afford. It was quite obvious that it was funded with the tax payers' money. If this is common, then it's quite understandable that people aren't too eager to pay their taxes. In order to be willing to pay your taxes you have to feel that you actually contribute to society. If I knew that my money just ended up in the politicians' pockets, then i wouldn't pay taxes either.

people are responsible for the democracy they live in.

greece should never have been let in, that it was is indication of the projects political ambitions over and above its economic sense.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Welcome to the Backroom, Paltmull! :balloon:


- Greece, Bulgaria and Romania should never have joined the EU.

- I'm with the Greek protesters. The problem is the Greek upper class, the politicians (pretty much a synonym), the corruption. The state is bankrupt, yet the Greek harbours make the yachts in Monaco look like rowing boats. If taxes were collected, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

- We are not supporting Greece, we are supporting our banks. It is their loans we are covering with public money.

That is, the poor in the West will have to pay the rich in the West, because the rich in Greece will not pay taxes like the poor in Greece must. As with the financial crisis, it is again an enormous transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.


I consider Greece another lesson in the dangers of rightist populism - the state as the client of corporations and the rich, anti-taxation sentiment, love for strong men and a bloated military. The difference between Greece, Argentina and the West isn't that big, all it takes is for the beleaguered middle class in the West to become as shortsighted as in these places, and vote themselvers out of existence by stripping themselves of the rule of law, equality, taxation and a functioning, decent government.

[Skullheadhq]

the state as the client of corporations and the rich, anti-taxation sentiment, love for strong men and a bloated military.
Hey, that sounds somewhat familiar...

[KukriKhan]

Greece, Bulgaria and Romania should never have joined the EU.


Ever? Or just when they did? Maybe later? Too late now?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ever? Or just when they did? Maybe later? Too late now?Back when Greece joined, Europe was still divided. When they became a democracy, it made sense to pull them in the Western camp, and away from the Ameri, erm, dictatotial camp.

The EU has functioned as a great sausage - it bolsters the democratic parties in countries during and after dictatorships with the promise of a viable future as part of a wealthy democratic bloc. It is a great instrument of pressure - reform into a democracy and you get to join. It worked wonders in Spain and Portugal, and later Eastern Europe. Not just before 1989, but also in the transitional phase of the 1990s. Most in Eastern Europe did not lapse in the nineties and naughties into some sort of semi-dictatorship like Byelorussia, but slowly transformed themselves into functioning democracies. Which is not as self-evident as it appears.

As such, it was a historic necessity that Greece could join. Dwarfing the current events.

But Greece has not been a good partner. Too corrupt, too much dependent on subsidies. Too much forever following its own agenda. Sometimes downright obstructing Europe. Like Greece, Portugal never really took off economically either, like the succes stories Spain and Ireland did. But at least Portugal is on the whole a more reliable partner. (Or maybe I just feel more culturally connected to Portugal than to the Balkan).

[Crazed Rabbit]

- I'm with the Greek protesters. The problem is the Greek upper class, the politicians (pretty much a synonym), the corruption. The state is bankrupt, yet the Greek harbours make the yachts in Monaco look like rowing boats. If taxes were collected, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

Bah! To me they seem like spoiled children who got paid beyond their means for years and now the bill is finally due. It was the Greek protesters who voted in government after corrupt government and didn't mind while they were getting paid. Now the consequences of their actions have come and they refuse to accept them.


"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

— Henry Mencken

Kick them out of the EU and let them go bankrupt, I say! I'm also most displeased American money (via the IMF) is helping them out.



That is, the poor in the West will have to pay the rich in the West, because the rich in Greece will not pay taxes like the poor in Greece must.

:rolleyes: From the article linked it seems like avoiding the taxman is a sport every class engages in.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

— Henry Mencken

Kick them out of the EU and let them go bankrupt, I say! If it were up to me, they'd be kicked out of the Euro.

But..then they'll be stuck with a useless currency. So they can't pay their bills. Which means a problem to Western banks and pension funds - those who hold the debt. They can't collect their debt.

Greece can default, but our financial system can't take it. It is this system we are trying to save, not Greece.




"If I owe you a thousand, I have got a problem. If I owe you a million, you have got a problem."

- John Maynard Keynes.




Edit: Iceloand got us all real good too. They, however, did it with their liberal banking rules, exporting useless finance and banking services. We have to pay the bill for saving the damage it caused to our financial system too. Yet nobody complains about the Icelanders. Iceland simply voted in a referendum to default, and leave Europe with the bill.
Give me Greece instead. The Greeks, because they are part of the EU, unlike Iceland, did not vote to simply not pay, nor does it really have that option as a fellow EU member. Unlike the poor in Iceland, who voted not to pay for the damge their banks caused, the protesters in Greece do not have this choice. So I would burn down a bank in Athens too, if I were them.

[Crazed Rabbit]

But..then they'll be stuck with a useless currency. So they can't pay their bills. Which means a problem to Western banks and pension funds - those who hold the debt. They can't collect their debt.

Greece can default, but our financial system can't take it. It is this system we are trying to save, not Greece.

Are you sure? How many nations are in the EU, and how many banks are there lending large amounts of money to nations? Surely the majority of banks can't be so tied up in Greek debt that they'll fail if Greece doesn't pay.

And why should you bail out the banks who made risky and foolish investments in Greece, if 'the system' isn't in existential danger? The banks and country ought to be punished for their stupidity. Letting the banks lose millions or more could prevent the next such crisis from happening; banks wouldn't lend to corrupt governments spending like drunken sailors if they thought they might not get the money back.

CR

[Furunculus]

here you go:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=weekinreview

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

on the other hand Britain's prospects look pretty good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/7697839/Why-the-UK-is-no-Greece.html

toodlepip! :party2:

[tibilicus]

people are responsible for the democracy they live in.

greece should never have been let in, that it was is indication of the projects political ambitions over and above its economic sense.

I have found in the past that your probably slightly more right thinking when it comes to the EU than me but your spot on here.

Greece was rotten when it first entered and not much has changed since then. In fact, arguably some of the newer members which joined in 2004 are less corrupt and more economically stable than Greece and some of the others that joined in the 80s. Point being the desire for European integration has clearly been put before the interests of an stable European market, something which arguably was the principle reasoning behind forming the EEC/EU.

it's just as well I guess then that the Uk has left its distance between the European market and our own independent market. The fact that the Eurozone is so heavily reliant on Germany, France and the other big players isn't a healthy situation at all. The whole idea of the single currency was that it would allow the lesser European economies to grow and would perhaps take away the responsibility of the bigger economies to hold down a stable currency. This clearly hasn't happened and as a result these nations are left to pay the bill thanks to Greece's reckless corruption and inability to act as a coherent member of the EU. If I was the Germans I would of just kicked them out..

[Hosakawa Tito]

He's lived on Corfu for most of the last decade.

Nice place to retire, the current situation notwithstanding. I pray that he stays safe.:bow:

I seem to remember reading somewhere recently that since their independence, Greece has been in a state of national insolvency half that time. Not a very promising track record at all. I can't blame those in the EU that want to kick them out either, not with that type of historical fiscal foolishness.

Looks like the Brits refusal to adopt the euro was a good move.

[Louis VI the Fat]

toodlepip! :party2:Yes, within Europe, the UK is second only to Greece in deficit spending.

The UK is one of the largest creditors of Greece. Yet because the UK is not in the Euro, British banks will be saved by the taxpayers in other countries.

The centre of European haute finance, of constant pressure for even less regulation, and the final recipient of taxpayer funded bailouts, is the City of London.

Ceaseless attacks on the Euro by speculators originate in London. The risks of this are for the European taxpayer, the profit for London.

[/perfidious Albion, rant rant rant]

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I really don't understand how these riots could possibly help the Greeks? Will burning cars etc will bring them money? I don't think so. If I'm mad because my government screwed up I don't go out and burn/destroy every car I see. There are other ways to express my self. But I guess it's that hot southern blood what makes them act like that.

[gaelic cowboy]

Its absolutely crazy Greece is what 2 or 3 percent of the GDP of the union and it's going to bust us all this seems to be a cod if you ask me. This lark has all the hallmarks of a inability by politicians in Europe as a whole to see whats what about a situation and sort it out instead to react is seen as giving in or being somehow weak.

Some commentators here were saying how the unthinkable always is unthinkable until its done Gold standard anyone supposedly that could not be changed either. Everyone cribbing about a weak Euro what the hell about it it's just a notional price for a bit of paper that tends to get spent for the most part in Europe anyway.

Anyway the problems will now not happen till next year now as they have been given the money to pay the bond holders so default is next years problem not todays the only people who derail it all now are Greeks fact.

[Beskar]

Greece was rotten when it first entered and not much has changed since then. In fact, arguably some of the newer members which joined in 2004 are less corrupt and more economically stable than Greece and some of the others that joined in the 80s. Point being the desire for European integration has clearly been put before the interests of an stable European market, something which arguably was the principle reasoning behind forming the EEC/EU.

Stable market requires stable politics. Apparently there is going to be a run on the pound because of coalition talks. Have you ever wondered "Why?". Why would Britain suddenly get in trouble economically, over something politically? It is because they are both interconnected.

To solve the greek problem, they need to address the economic crisis politically, enforcing regulation amongst other things to make sure it doesn't happen again. The thing with this, this integration is bad and should be stopped, which those of a more nationalist view subscribe to.

It is a circle that goes around. People should seriously address what they want, in terms of pro's and con's then make a decision on it.

[cegorach]

According to Transparency International Greece is the most corrupt EU member, but it is even worse.


I recall the time when my country was applying to join the EU, everybody said - 'don't be Greece' - it is like a monument of failure of an authoritarian country never recovering from its ugly past.

Tax evasion inherited from Ottoman times, corruption from the Byzantine Empire, ultra powerful Orthodox Church from late Ottoman period, populist political scene and anarcho-leftist protesters and ordinary terrorists with bloated trade unions and army from the transition period in the XXth century.

Lovely - EU worst nightmare.



Unfortunatelly kicking Greece out of the EU is impossible and would be counterproductive if was possible. Loans will save German and French banks first of all, but the country will have to reform too.


I cannot imagine that someone can just sit down doing nothing and be given so much in so little time only to waste mst of the help.

Maybe a decade of hard reforms will help, frankly it must help because what else is left?


It is not like other EU members don't suffer from any of those peoblems - quite differently, but it can be changed - for example in my country due to their part in the destruction of communism trade unions were almost untouchable for a decade after 1989 which resulted in destruction of several companies and - thankfully - in humilation of the organisations themselves. Presently I hear people supporting toughest measures aginst politicised trade unions with no desire to support 'activists' earning 10 times more than ordinary workers or more.

Hopefully Greece will see recognisable change in a decade or earlier, but they must deal with their problems - standing on a verge of an abyss should help.

Because nothing worse can happen, can it?

[tibilicus]

Stable market requires stable politics. Apparently there is going to be a run on the pound because of coalition talks. Have you ever wondered "Why?". Why would Britain suddenly get in trouble economically, over something politically? It is because they are both interconnected.

To solve the greek problem, they need to address the economic crisis politically, enforcing regulation amongst other things to make sure it doesn't happen again. The thing with this, this integration is bad and should be stopped, which those of a more nationalist view subscribe to.

It is a circle that goes around. People should seriously address what they want, in terms of pro's and con's then make a decision on it.

Hence the "corruption" reference. The problem is that if the Greeks decide in their next election (whenever that is) to vote in a party in favour of overturning austerity measures, the Eurozone is in big trouble. Perhaps the bigger issue right now though is to stop Portugal and Spain going under. If that happens the markets will be in effective meltdown.

[gaelic cowboy]

@ tibilicus next election in Greece is in 2014 I would say seeing as new government was sworn in after the crisis spluttered into view they last crowd resigned cos they had no mandate but tbh I think they cut and ran so they can pretend the other side ruined Greece. To there utter eternal disgrace the previous incumbents who broke the country voted against the bailout in a totally populist move the last day.

[Furunculus]

Yes, within Europe, the UK is second only to Greece in deficit spending.

The UK is one of the largest creditors of Greece. Yet because the UK is not in the Euro, British banks will be saved by the taxpayers in other countries.

The centre of European haute finance, of constant pressure for even less regulation, and the final recipient of taxpayer funded bailouts, is the City of London.

Ceaseless attacks on the Euro by speculators originate in London. The risks of this are for the European taxpayer, the profit for London.

[/perfidious Albion, rant rant rant]

wrong on both counts babbo, try reading the links supplied:

here you go:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=weekinreview

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

on the other hand Britain's prospects look pretty good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/7697839/Why-the-UK-is-no-Greece.html

toodlepip! :party2:

the first link shows who owes what, and i think you'll find we're $15b to ~$100b with the rest of the EU, with france holding the p00py end of the stick.

the second link notes that our structural deficit is probably closer to 5% rather than 12%, because a large part is short term debt relating to bank bailouts rather than decades of spending on credit.

we also have an avereage debt roll-over period 50% longer than the euro average, so we're unlikely to get bombed by the bond markets unless they get spooked by the tanking monetary union of our next-door neighbours...........

[Louis VI the Fat]

try reading the links supplied:I read those articles, I am simply venting my frustration at the triumphalism of the UK, which is - such seems to be a historical constant - partly to blame for all these problems. Two years of the European taxpayer bailing out the international finance crooks of the City - my grandchildren will still be paying off their bonuses - while the City grows rich as if nothing happened while heaping triumphalist scorn at the latest victim of financial speculation by these packs of wolves.

I say support the Euro with a Tonkin tax on financial transactions. It is clear that sovereign nations ae no longer the masters of their own financial destiny. We can't throw around the same amount of money that international finance can. Our security and stability is at the mercy of a few computer clicks by the herd mentality of speculators. This is not on.




I am also much dismayed that the entire wealth of France seems to be lend to Italy, Greece, Portugal and the even greater economical wonderlands in Africa. :wall:
I'll find a way to vent my frustration by blaming that on Albion too, as soon as I figured out how you had us all this time.

[Husar]

Looks like France owns Italy... :shocked2:

Just by looking at that graph, Greece doesn't really look like a problem, yet it is one, maybe it's time they start actually collecting taxes.

[gaelic cowboy]

Those debt graphs Furunculus supplied before show a lot but explain nothing of who holds the debt or when it has to be paid back etc etc. One thing that caught my attention was the massive 7 to 8 billion owed by Greece to Ireland but our government estimates only 40 million is at stake in our banks so the owed money is obviously for these investment type banking people who just use Dublin as a postal address.


on a side note debt is not a problem only ability to pay is the factor to be considered there is far to much hysteria on this lately in the media FACT. So Italy owes a massive pile to France few points to remember when are the bonds up for payment who owns the bonds etc etc.

Most Italian bonds are owned by Italians that is a factor in there favor unlike Greece who had to pay now and had no money and no ability to borrow which is what all countries do but could not

[Louis VI the Fat]

Looks like France owns Italy... :shocked2:

Just by looking at that graph, Greece doesn't really look like a problem, yet it is one, maybe it's time they start actually collecting taxes.We need Germany to rule Europe with an iron fist. We need a D-mark from the Atlantic to the Urals. Kick out Merkel and put a man in power who'll promise to impose Teutonic discipline on the entire continent.


What were we thinking when we stopped you last two times!? :wall:
See, that was the result of Albion too. Told you so.

[gaelic cowboy]

What needs to happen is greater oversight of interbank lending in the Eurozone the money all went one way as France and Germany lent in Euro to the other Euro countries who supposedly would never default due to being in the euro. That was the mistake right there the belief that just because certain countries were in the Euro they could never default ever again. Naturally these investment bank type sensed a good deal when they saw it they could use German money and buy Greek bonds at a higher rate than German bonds and the money was supposedly just as safe which of course it will be now for this year anyway.

[Megas Methuselah]

There are other ways to express my self. But I guess it's that hot southern blood what makes them act like that.

Probably the heat. Up here, we make roadblocks.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What needs to happen is greater oversight of interbank lending in the Eurozone the money all went one way as France and Germany lent in Euro to the other Euro countries who supposedly would never default due to being in the euro. That was the mistake right there the belief that just because certain countries were in the Euro they could never default ever again. Naturally these investment bank type sensed a good deal when they saw it they could use German money and buy Greek bonds at a higher rate than German bonds and the money was supposedly just as safe which of course it will be now for this year anyway.Europe will fight back! :knight:



Some heavyweight hedge funds have launched large bearish bets against the euro in moves that are reminiscent of trades at the height of the U.S. financial crisis.
The big bets are emerging amid gatherings such as an exclusive "idea dinner" earlier this month that included hedge-fund titans SAC Capital Advisors LP and Soros Fund Management LLC.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB40001424052748703795004575087741848074392.html
Regulation at last - hopefully:

The European parliament is expected tomorrow to approve a draft directive to toughen regulation of hedge funds (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/hedge-funds) and private equity (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/privateequity) firms despite a growing tide of opposition from leading politicians and lobby groups in the UK and America, where both industries are clustered.

Labour's City minister Lord Myners has described the proposed regulatory crackdown – being championed by France and Germany – as "fundamentally flawed and promot[ing] protectionism under the guise of protection". Both the Conservative party and Liberal Democrats have similar views. US treasury secretary Timothy Geithner has also been critical.
However, after months of deliberation members of the economic committee of the European parliament are expected to pass the text proposed by Jean-Paul Gauzès, the parliament's rapporteur on the proposed directive on alternative investment.


Directive rules on hedge funds would require non-European funds to have a "passport" to be able to trade in Europe, but they may not be able to earn one if their home country has different financial regulation. This would limit the presence of US-based hedge funds in Europe, which include some of the biggest firms, such as Paulson & Co.
Many hedge funds from both sides of the Atlantic operated registered operations from the Cayman Islands, the Caribbean tax haven. A passport blacklisting for the Cayman Islands could create huge problems for the industry.
The proposal has angered the financial industry, particularly in Britain, home to about 450 hedge funds, 80% of the European total. UK-based hedge funds employ 10,000 professionals directly and 30,000 others, such as lawyers and accountants, indirectly.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/09/eu-crackdown-hedge-funds-private-equity
Hedge funds launching an attack on the euro from their tax havens, protected by their governments of their real base of operations, threatening our pensions and financial stability, after we bailed out their industry with taxes my grandchildren will still be paying - and they have the nerve to be 'angered' at the threat of the mere smallest of regulatory measures? Bunch of bloody wank...erm, bankers. :furious3:

[gaelic cowboy]

And those bloody ratings agencies to Louis don't forget them if there was ever a low dirty crowd its them I mean they seem to have been paid by the very toxic banks they rated

[gaelic cowboy]

breaking news on sky Europe agrees a 500 billion euro aid package to stabilise the eurozone. (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Europe-Agrees-500bn-Euro-Aid-Package-To-Stabilise-Greece-Crisis/Article/201005215628704?lpos=World_News_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15628704_Europe_Agrees_500bn_Euro_Aid_Package_To_Stabilise_Greece_Crisis)

[Kagemusha]

Like Olli Rehn says, "proves that we shall defend the euro whatever it takes,". In my opinion the monetary Union is the thing that benefits all the Euro countries. After the Greek case maybe our Politicians will be smart enough to understand that countries cant be accepted to Euro automatically and there are limits how many Euro countries can there be whose economy is weak. This might calm down a bit the frenzy to expand the EU.

[Furunculus]

I read those articles, I am simply venting my frustration at the triumphalism of the UK, which is - such seems to be a historical constant - partly to blame for all these problems. Two years of the European taxpayer bailing out the international finance crooks of the City - my grandchildren will still be paying off their bonuses - while the City grows rich as if nothing happened while heaping triumphalist scorn at the latest victim of financial speculation by these packs of wolves.

I say support the Euro with a Tonkin tax on financial transactions. It is clear that sovereign nations ae no longer the masters of their own financial destiny. We can't throw around the same amount of money that international finance can. Our security and stability is at the mercy of a few computer clicks by the herd mentality of speculators. This is not on.

the triumphalism results from the fact that we finally have the leverage we need to see a two speed europe with britain in the slow lane.

as i have said before; I want to be a good neighbour to europe, it is in all of our interests, but as long as britain is being inextricably dragged into ever-deeper-union i will dig my heels in to prevent anything from europe, and cheer on any disaster that slows integration.

give me this:

1) The referendum lock
2) A United Kingdom sovereignty bill
3) A guaranteed say for MP’s if Ministers want the EU to extend its powers
4) Opt out from the charter of fundamental rights
5) Return of powers over criminal justice
6) Repatriation of control over social and employment legislation

in addition to the elements we have already dodged such as:
1. Schengen
2. Euro

and a few more such as Cameron and Srakozy's discussion to kill of the european defence agency.

and we will have created a two-speed europe, at which point i will graciously cheer on the hard-core of continental nations that want ever more integration, but don't be surprised if quite a few other EU nations join us in the slow-lane.............. but then that is what the transnational progressivists fear most; an a-lal-carte EU, which is why they fight so hard to drag Britain into every daft euro-scheme.

if you let me, i will be a good european.

[KukriKhan]

We need Germany to rule Europe with an iron fist. We need a D-mark from the Atlantic to the Urals. Kick out Merkel and put a man in power who'll promise to impose Teutonic discipline on the entire continent.


What were we thinking when we stopped you last two times!? :wall:
See, that was the result of Albion too. Told you so.

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-HA!

And LOL, et ROFL, et cetera.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Regulation at last - hopefully:
Hedge funds launching an attack on the euro from their tax havens, protected by their governments of their real base of operations, threatening our pensions and financial stability, after we bailed out their industry with taxes my grandchildren will still be paying - and they have the nerve to be 'angered' at the threat of the mere smallest of regulatory measures? Bunch of bloody wank...erm, bankers. :furious3:

An attack? If more firms had 'attacked' Greece for their out of control spending before the crash, the government's wild ways may have been reigned in. I said before that if people had stopped lending to Greece earlier, or demanded higher rates for the debt, the whole Greek problem would have been smaller because Greece would have faced market pressures for their foolish behavior. Now that's finally starting to happen more and you call it an attack on Europe?

And hedge funds and private equity firms aren't even the institutions normally blamed for the crash.

This is just a way for France and Germany to ban foreign hedge funds and prevent their own citizens from choosing to invest in them. And when foreign funds are banned, where do you think the hedge fund industry will expand? The governments are counting on people to simply accept that any and all regulation is good. Don't be fooled.

In an aside, the firms most responsible for the crash - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - who financed millions of sub prime loans - have largely escaped any regulation because the Democrats like companies if they're part of the government.

CR

[gaelic cowboy]

I said before that if people had stopped lending to Greece earlier, or demanded higher rates for the debt, the whole Greek problem would have been smaller because Greece would have faced market pressures for their foolish behavior.

Greece did have a higher rate for its bonds hence the people bought them as they got a better return on a greek bond than a german one. The market instead flooded greece with credit on the assumption it would never default due to euro membership.

[Beskar]

So it was the Market which was wrong, again.... :rolleyes:

Seriously, who makes these jokers have that much wealth and power, so they end up ruining everything out of personal interest?

[Beskar]

In an aside, the firms most responsible for the crash - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - who financed millions of sub prime loans - have largely escaped any regulation because the Democrats like companies if they're part of the government.


Actually, it was Goldman Sachs and friends. Who set them up with the aim of them crashing and betting money on the fact they will crash.

[gaelic cowboy]

So it was the Market which was wrong, again.... :rolleyes:

Seriously, who makes these jokers have that much wealth and power, so they end up ruining everything out of personal interest?

Well yes and no the market felt that the EU would defend the Euro because of the immense loss of face it would cause internationally of a member country default.

It was the the speculative people later who then bet on a default who felt that the EU would be unable to agree on a plan due to the divided nature of power in the EU.

[Lemur]

A worthwhile read about how the bailout might and might not play out (http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/05/10/the-eu-bailout-too-much-too-late/):


[W]hile the EU’s trillion dollars is surely sufficient to prevent any country from having to default in the next few years, I fear that its enormity will only exacerbate tensions between the euro zone countries over the long term. They’re not all partners together anymore: now they’re bifurcating into the rich lenders, on the one hand, and the formerly-profligate debtors, on the other. The mind-boggling sums involved are only going to increase resentments both of the south in the north and of the north in the south.

[Fragony]

Greece did have a higher rate for its bonds hence the people bought them as they got a better return on a greek bond than a german one. The market instead flooded greece with credit on the assumption it would never default due to euro membership.

And pensions were set at 54 on top of the 14 months a year and just about nobody has a non-government job, and now their socialism is going to be feeding on us. Nono.

[gaelic cowboy]

And pensions were set at 54 on top of the 14 months a year and just about nobody has a non-government job, and now their socialism is going to be feeding on us. Nono.

The use or misuse of said money for such things has a misleading tone the only criteria to be measured is the ability to pay back the bond. As Greece had a lot of money to pay back now and not next year due to credit tightening up they were unable to borrow more to pay the last one. This is what all countries do no one actually has a government that saves up money and pay its debt they borrow more and on and on forever.

Greece could not rollover the bonds and so was in danger of default no one will lend it is therefore a self fulfilling prophecy


As an aside here is the bonds and dates due for Ireland NTMA bond due dates (http://www.ntma.ie/GovernmentBonds/Daily_Bonds_Outstanding.pdf)

[Jolt]

Well, I've been pretty involved and observant of the Paradox thread on this issue which already is far into the dozens of pages. I was browsing and finally saw a thread on the matter, so I shall be informing only where my country is due and dispelling things you people elsewhere hear on magazines or on the news. The reports that Portugal is on the brink of failure and/or comparing the Greek situation with the Portuguese one are pure speculation and doom & gloom.

Before the Economic crisis, the deficit was well-controled in 3.0. As the crisis hit and people got fired, firms closed down and the economy contracted, spending with things like unemployment pensions and assorted social transfers went through the roof (Obviously, the State couldn't let out its people in the cold all of a sudden, especially in contracting economy). The result was that the deficit shot up to 10%. Vast measures of privatization have been taken (And quite controversial too), along with the overall reduction of Statal transfers and increase in direct and indirect taxes. The end result is that the 10.2 deficit of a few months ago has dropped significantly to 8.3 and the latest estimates have axed it to 7.2. Now the government is steadily reducing spending after the immediate period where it had to take the impact of the crisis off it's budget. Just today, the government is using political trickery, taking advantage of the positive public mood, using the coronation of Benfica (The most popular Portuguese Soccer club) as Portuguese champions, along with the Papal visit to the country, to quietly pass a Law-Decree increasing the IRS, effectively increasing yet again the taxes. It has been quite surprising to see how fast the country's deficit fell from 10 to 7.

So, the Portuguese government is duly doing its job in reducing the large deficit incurred from the crisis at a nice pace so far.

So much that the doomsday theories being forwarded by Paradox members now effectively exclude Portugal as a country on the brink of collapse or with a risk for it to happen.

[Furunculus]

Well, I've been pretty involved and observant of the Paradox thread on this issue which already is far into the dozens of pages. I was browsing and finally saw a thread on the matter, so I shall be informing only where my country is due and dispelling things you people elsewhere hear on magazines or on the news. The reports that Portugal is on the brink of failure and/or comparing the Greek situation with the Portuguese one are pure speculation and doom & gloom.

Before the Economic crisis, the deficit was well-controled in 3.0. As the crisis hit and people got fired, firms closed down and the economy contracted, spending with things like unemployment pensions and assorted social transfers went through the roof (Obviously, the State couldn't let out its people in the cold all of a sudden, especially in contracting economy). The result was that the deficit shot up to 10%. Vast measures of privatization have been taken (And quite controversial too), along with the overall reduction of Statal transfers and increase in direct and indirect taxes. The end result is that the 10.2 deficit of a few months ago has dropped significantly to 8.3 and the latest estimates have axed it to 7.2. Now the government is steadily reducing spending after the immediate period where it had to take the impact of the crisis off it's budget. Just today, the government is using political trickery, taking advantage of the positive public mood, using the coronation of Benfica (The most popular Portuguese Soccer club) as Portuguese champions, along with the Papal visit to the country, to quietly pass a Law-Decree increasing the IRS, effectively increasing yet again the taxes. It has been quite surprising to see how fast the country's deficit fell from 10 to 7.

So, the Portuguese government is duly doing its job in reducing the large deficit incurred from the crisis at a nice pace so far.

So much that the doomsday theories being forwarded by Paradox members now effectively exclude Portugal as a country on the brink of collapse or with a risk for it to happen.
sounds like portugal, much like the UK, doesn't have a huge structural deficit, which is a vastly healthier position to be in than greece.

[Hosakawa Tito]

A worthwhile read about how the bailout might and might not play out (http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/05/10/the-eu-bailout-too-much-too-late/):


[W]hile the EU’s trillion dollars is surely sufficient to prevent any country from having to default in the next few years, I fear that its enormity will only exacerbate tensions between the euro zone countries over the long term. They’re not all partners together anymore: now they’re bifurcating into the rich lenders, on the one hand, and the formerly-profligate debtors, on the other. The mind-boggling sums involved are only going to increase resentments both of the south in the north and of the north in the south.

The current stock market likes it, but "solving" a debt problem by incurring more debt is just kicking the can down the road.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I said before that if people had stopped lending to Greece earlier, or demanded higher rates for the debt, the whole Greek problem would have been smaller because Greece would have faced market pressures for their foolish behavior. Now that's finally starting to happen more and you call it an attack on Europe?



This is just a way for France and Germany to ban foreign hedge funds and prevent their own citizens from choosing to invest in them. And when foreign funds are banned, where do you think the hedge fund industry will expand? The governments are counting on people to simply accept that any and all regulation is good. Don't be fooled.CROh, I consider Greece very much the main culprit.

But it's not a matter of either / or. Both ill-disciplined Greek governments and culture are to blame, and the financial markets.
After the last round of bailouts, I made a sharp left political turn. Been browsing the anarcho-communist www, because they seem to be the only ones who share my frustration at this endless transfer of money from the taxpayer to the financial institutions.

As for where I think the hedge funds will expand to: nowhere. They'll stay nicely put in the Cayman Islands, undermining our pensions and financial stability away from regulatory oversight and tax.
Me, I think the death penalty was devised specifically for this, but I'll settle for the government at last forcing them to pay taxes on their billion euro profits.

[Louis VI the Fat]

the second link notes that our structural deficit is probably closer to 5% rather than 12%, because a large part is short term debt relating to bank bailouts rather than decades of spending on credit.In the UK election thread, we don't hear the end of it how Labour has mortgaged Britain's future with its irresponsible deficit spending.

In this thread, we don't hear the end of how the UK - which is always right! - has done so much better than the rest of Europe because the deficit spending is really only short term and should not be confused with a structural deficit.


:book:


pensions were set at 54 on top of the 14 months a year Considering the high level of unemployment, the early retirement age is of little consequence. It merely speeds up of the rotation of government jobs.

Basic civil service wages are very low. The taxpayer won;t have it otherwise. To compensate, civil servants get payed in bonuses and a 13th and 14th month. The end result is a normal wage. Not an excessive wage structure is at work here, but smoke and mirrors, and a lack of transparancy, as is the custom in Greece.

Both are the result of the problems, not the cause of the problems.

[Furunculus]

In the UK election thread, we don't hear the end of it how Labour has mortgaged Britain's future with its irresponsible deficit spending.

In this thread, we don't hear the end of how the UK - which is always right! - has done so much better than the rest of Europe because the deficit spending is really only short term and should not be confused with a structural deficit.

no contradiction:

5% is still too much.

the additional 6% is a shocking indictment of labours tripartite system of financial governance, system implemented in 97 which failed the first time it faced a financial crisis.

[Kagemusha]

Oh, I consider Greece very much the main culprit.

But it's not a matter of either / or. Both ill-disciplined Greek governments and culture are to blame, and the financial markets.
After the last round of bailouts, I made a sharp left political turn. Been browsing the anarcho-communist www, because they seem to be the only ones who share my frustration at this endless transfer of money from the taxpayer to the financial institutions.

As for where I think the hedge funds will expand to: nowhere. They'll stay nicely put in the Cayman Islands, undermining our pensions and financial stability away from regulatory oversight and tax.
Me, I think the death penalty was devised specifically for this, but I'll settle for the government at last forcing them to pay taxes on their billion euro profits.

We just need to start taxing stock exchange. The speculation with stock, currency, bonds, metals and many other things these days is just ridiculous. It doesnt profit anyone else then the speculators, who use it as means to pump money out of the market by using money. It has nothing benefitial in it for the economy.

[gaelic cowboy]

We just need to start taxing stock exchange. The speculation with stock, currency, bonds, metals and many other things these days is just ridiculous. It doesnt profit anyone else then the speculators, who use it as means to pump money out of the market by using money. It has nothing benefitial in it for the economy.



The stock exchange is taxed thats what capital gains tax is for I mean you do have capital gains tax in Finland right.

I take your point on speculation in resources but since they are finite it really is impossible to stop speculation.

The real danger is really when we defang our regulators too much or give them too big a chopper neither is desirable hence the terrible performance of the Irish financial regulator and the governor of the Irish central bank.

Thankfully two new outsiders have been appointed to both positions and they are causing ructions here like you would not believe which gives me enormous pleasure seeing the banks forced to admit there recklessness.

We should look at taxing the big investment banks or forcing them to become real banks they are so big but are technically not covered in any bailout but in the end the US had to bail them out or collapse the world there is your danger then.

on a side note I foolishly long believed that our finacial regulator and the govenor of the Irish central bank had the best interests of the monetary system at heart ie you and me at the end of the day. Amazingly the finacial regulator here was spun off from the central bank in an attempt to ensure that conflicts of interest between a healthy banking system and and trying to grow the finance industry did not occur. What turned out is they were all gloriously incompetent even possibly criminally negligent due mainly to govermental interference in the property market.

[Beskar]

They should pass a bill which states that the country can only got into debt during a national emergency. That would revolutionise the system.

[gaelic cowboy]

They should pass a bill which states that the country can only got into debt during a national emergency. That would revolutionise the system.

That would ignore the massive private debt which is the actual problem in the wider world unlike in Greece. Better to regulate the banks more by getting tighter on deposit to lending ratios and to ensure tax breaks are ended for property development. Also the simple old time rules on having money down to get a loan need to come back long live boring banks.

plus we cannot all save Beskar some countries have differant fundamentals and so may need to borrow even in good times never mind bad times. Say it quietly but german and french savers can only save because we the debtors borrow from them this is because on repayment we pay them extra back which increases the total for them.

[Jolt]

They should pass a bill which states that the country can only got into debt during a national emergency. That would revolutionise the system.

Depending on the sanctions for going into debt, and the actual rationale for calling a situation "national emergency", the end result of such a bill would range from Eurozone members ignoring it to not being viable.

Notice even Germany (European economical engine) went against its rules and ran a deficit above 3% a couple of years ago (before the crisis).

You cannot stop countries from running deficits. Doing that would have catastrophic effects on people's lives; and limit even further the financial policy of the Eurozone countries whose policies are already severely constrained by the common currency.

[Louis VI the Fat]

So, the Portuguese government is duly doing its job in reducing the large deficit incurred from the crisis at a nice pace so far.

So much that the doomsday theories being forwarded by Paradox members now effectively exclude Portugal as a country on the brink of collapse or with a risk for it to happen.Portugal is structurally the weakest economy of the Western EU member states. Growth has remained dissapointingly sluggish for decades. Not that this is the final word about Portugal. By purchasing power, a lot of the gap dissappears. There is a good quality of life too. Provided I was not poor, I, for one, might prefer a life in Portugal over one Finland, but that's highly subjective.

Three differences with Greece: Portugal did not falsify statistics, Portugal is on the whole a valued and reliable EU member, and the national debt of Portugal stands in fact at only the same level as that of Germany. This last bit is important. There are three main determinants for 'on the brink of collapse': a high deficit, a high debt as % of GDP, and a weak economy. Greece fails on all three. Portugal only two.



For comparison (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/2-22042010-BP/EN/2-22042010-BP-EN.PDF):

In 2009 the largest government deficits in percentage of GDP were recorded by the BIGS (and not PIGS), the southern rim and the spendthrifty neo-liberal islands:
Ireland (-14.3%)
Greece (-13.6%)
United Kingdom (-11.5%)
Spain (-11.2%)
Portugal (-9.4%), Latvia (-9.0%), Lithuania (-8.9%), Romania (-8.3%), France (-7.5%) and Poland (-7.1%). No Member State registered a government surplus in 2009.


Twelve Member States had government debt ratios higher than 60% of GDP in 2009:

Italy (115.8%)
Greece (115.1%)
Belgium (96.7%)
Hungary (78.3%)
France (77.6%)
Portugal (76.8%)
Germany (73.2%)
Malta (69.1%)
the United Kingdom (68.1%)
Austria (66.5%)
Ireland (64.0%)
the Netherlands (60.9%).

Interesting is that the new member states have very low government debt.

[aimlesswanderer]

Well, salvation for Greece is at hand, Wog Boy 2 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1457766/) is out next week.

A large part of the Greek population might move out here if things go down the gurgler, since the city with the largest Greek population outside of Greece is Melbourne.

[Hosakawa Tito]

"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" - Margaret Thatcher

The tradition continues.

[Louis VI the Fat]

"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" - Margaret Thatcher

The tradition continues.Why indeed. And the troubles in Greece, which are at last being tackled by the socialists who got in power a few months ago, are too a great extent the result of the rightwing party that ruled Greece for most of the decade. The party that gave endless benefits to corporations, that refused to properly collect taxes, that disbanded the financial police unit that investigates tax evasion, the party that gave government orders for endless public works to corporations which are unusually tightly connected to these same politicians.

The problem with the rightwing is that eventually the working classes can't be squeezed out like a lemon any further.

[Jolt]

Portugal is structurally the weakest economy of the Western EU member states. Growth has remained dissapointingly sluggish for decades. Not that this is the final word about Portugal. By purchasing power, a lot of the gap dissappears.

To be honest, the Euro plus common market plus WTO "Most favoured nation" clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_favoured_nation) plus MFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_Fibre_Arrangement), crippled Portugal. To be fair, we had plenty of years recieving bucketloads of money, and it was in those years where we had the biggest growth of the last 30 years. But most of the money was misspent or used to improve the country's infrastructures (Which became quite good, especially in the coastal parts). Unfortunately competitivity didn't rise that much and our industries still struggled to remain competitive. Nevertheless, prospects were good, going into the 2000's. But those things combined crippled much of our industry and thus we now have a very large number of people (Like my own family) which were middle-class before the Euro (Some ten years ago), and now are the "new poor" (people who can't even afford to pay the bills). For instance, some 15 years ago, my father managed to rack up as much as 10000 € per month. In the last 5 years, he has had to settle with 0 €. Much of our industry has been smothered by the lack of protection measures, which accounts for our sluggish growth. Small steps are being taken to try and build industries of high added value, but due to the current economical climate and the said cost of building these industries from scratch (Bringing know-how and technology, etc), makes it an infant project (Much like the industries which collapsed after the Euro)

I am a firm believer in Protectionism as a means to protect nascent industries and to build-up industrial or economical competitiveness. This crisis and particularly this speculation which is happenning has made me very critical about the free capital mobility and the impact and structural rules assigned to financial markets.

What Portugal needs is to put its budget back into a reasonable deficit level to return to try and build a proper profitable economy.

[Kagemusha]

Portugal is structurally the weakest economy of the Western EU member states. Growth has remained dissapointingly sluggish for decades. Not that this is the final word about Portugal. By purchasing power, a lot of the gap dissappears. There is a good quality of life too. Provided I was not poor, I, for one, might prefer a life in Portugal over one Finland, but that's highly subjective.

Three differences with Greece: Portugal did not falsify statistics, Portugal is on the whole a valued and reliable EU member, and the national debt of Portugal stands in fact at only the same level as that of Germany. This last bit is important. There are three main determinants for 'on the brink of collapse': a high deficit, a high debt as % of GDP, and a weak economy. Greece fails on all three. Portugal only two.



For comparison (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/2-22042010-BP/EN/2-22042010-BP-EN.PDF):

In 2009 the largest government deficits in percentage of GDP were recorded by the BIGS (and not PIGS), the southern rim and the spendthrifty neo-liberal islands:
Ireland (-14.3%)
Greece (-13.6%)
United Kingdom (-11.5%)
Spain (-11.2%)
Portugal (-9.4%), Latvia (-9.0%), Lithuania (-8.9%), Romania (-8.3%), France (-7.5%) and Poland (-7.1%). No Member State registered a government surplus in 2009.


Twelve Member States had government debt ratios higher than 60% of GDP in 2009:

Italy (115.8%)
Greece (115.1%)
Belgium (96.7%)
Hungary (78.3%)
France (77.6%)
Portugal (76.8%)
Germany (73.2%)
Malta (69.1%)
the United Kingdom (68.1%)
Austria (66.5%)
Ireland (64.0%)
the Netherlands (60.9%).

Interesting is that the new member states have very low government debt.

And as you can see all the Nordic countries are missing from this list.I guess our horribly socialistic policies have really done their job.

[Louis VI the Fat]

And as you can see all the Nordic countries are missing from this list.I guess our horribly socialistic policies have really done their job.Your pityful socialist nightmare states even have the world's highest social mobility rates.

That's what you get with all these handouts to the poor. A lot of them turn into middle class.

Tsk. Way to keep the peasantry in check. :no:

[rory_20_uk]

Your pityful socialist nightmare states even have the world's highest social mobility rates.

That's what you get with all these handouts to the poor. A lot of them turn into middle class.

Tsk. Way to keep the peasantry in check. :no:

They're not middle class. They're merely well off unemployed people.

~:smoking:

[al Roumi]

I am a firm believer in Protectionism as a means to protect nascent industries and to build-up industrial or economical competitiveness. This crisis and particularly this speculation which is happenning has made me very critical about the free capital mobility and the impact and structural rules assigned to financial markets.

I certainly think that it's appalingly unfair of the EU to request/demand deregulation from its smaller partners or new entrants, while its larger states do not play by those rules. A free market only really works for all if the playing field is even/flat, when it's not (and people cheat by tilting it), all the money tends to concentrate a bit... Protectionism is a bit of a strong word though...

[Jolt]

I certainly think that it's appalingly unfair of the EU to request/demand deregulation from its smaller partners or new entrants, while its larger states do not play by those rules. A free market only really works for all if the playing field is even/flat, when it's not (and people cheat by tilting it), all the money tends to concentrate a bit... Protectionism is a bit of a strong word though...

Protectionism is just the word used to refer to all instruments whose objective is to protect one's economy (tariffs, quotas, subsidies, regulations, etc.) The EU is fiercely protectionist together when it acts together as a block. It has single-handedly locked WTO Doha Round negotiations on its own.

EDIT: And I approve of it.

[Furunculus]

Protectionism is a bit of a strong word though...

why, it accurately defines what he describes, why dress it up otherwise?

[Louis VI the Fat]

They're not middle class. They're merely well off unemployed people.

~:smoking:I was a bit sarcastic. I meant handouts to the poor not as unemployment benefits, but in affordable housing, decent education for all, accessible healthcare. In the Nordic countries, people who receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes even have the right to vote!! Nor is one's economic status equated with one's moral status.

All of that empowers the working class, allows an economy to draw and develop talent from all social strata, creates social mobility.


The Hobbesian anglo jungles do not, as is so often argued by its proponents, stimulate the poor to get of their lazy behinds. They rather keep the poor in their place. Neo-liberal paradises have the lowest social mobility in the Western world.



~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


It's all not a matter of rightwing - leftwing.

The Nordic countries are made of glass, they're so transparent. It is a miracle to behold. Everything is open, direct, accessible.

People are employed, judged, on their individual merit, instead of through personal relations. Economic exchange is done without the tedium of close connection to social exchange. No need to have six elaborate lunches before a deal is struck - these are decided upon within twenty minutes of the first contact. The merits of the deal are glossed over, not the person at the table. There is little corruption. Societies are egalitarian - people recognise themselves in each other.
Greece, within Europe, is in all of these aspects at the other end of the scale. It is all not a matter of left or right, nor even of economics. It is cultural.

[rory_20_uk]

South Korea is a prime example of a country that sheltered its high tech industries until they were more mature, then released them on the world. Free markets allow reosurces go to where they are best served - BUT this might mean that certain countries have no purpose in anything (Greece comes to mind...)

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

South Korea is a prime example of a country that sheltered its high tech industries until they were more mature, then released them on the world. Free markets allow reosurces go to where they are best served - BUT this might mean that certain countries have no purpose in anything (Greece comes to mind...)

~:smoking:
you might have forgotten greece's primary function to the world; holiday destination.

[al Roumi]

why, it accurately defines what he describes, why dress it up otherwise?

Fair enough, it's just quite a strong term. Protectionism to me implies markets completely closed to foreign goods, I'm less frightened by Protectionist as a term (and policy) -i.e some degree competition and support :beam:


It's all not a matter of rightwing - leftwing.

The Nordic countries are made of glass, they're so transparent. It is a miracle to behold. Everything is open, direct, accessible.

Greece, within Europe, is in all of these aspects at the other end of the scale. It is all not a matter of left or right, nor even of economics. It is cultural.

I am wary of the term "culture" in this sense, it can imply that such countries are predestined to be as they are -either well or badly run. "Societal" might be less ambiguous a term as it is understood to be transient, changeable and fluid. After all, if we don't strive for or accept that places like Greece, never mind the UK, Italy, Russia or Sudan for that matter, can evolve in a positive manner, we might as well give up or request invasion by the superior Scandinavians.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's all not a matter of rightwing - leftwing.

The Nordic countries are made of glass, they're so transparent. It is a miracle to behold. Everything is open, direct, accessible.

People are employed, judged, on their individual merit, instead of through personal relations. Economic exchange is done without the tedium of close connection to social exchange. No need to have six elaborate lunches before a deal is struck - these are decided upon within twenty minutes of the first contact. The merits of the deal are glossed over, not the person at the table. There is little corruption. Societies are egalitarian - people recognise themselves in each other.
Greece, within Europe, is in all of these aspects at the other end of the scale. It is all not a matter of left or right, nor even of economics. It is cultural.

So Greek culture is crap, Germanic culture is better?

What about Frankish culture? Anglo-Saxon? Varients therof?

It's an extremely dangerous proposition, particularly because it is appealing in a way class-theory is not.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am wary of the term "culture" in this sense, it can imply that such countries are predestined to be as they are -either well or badly run. "Societal" might be less ambiguous a term as it is understood to be transient, changeable and fluid. After all, if we don't strive for or accept that places like Greece, never mind the UK, Italy, Russia or Sudan for that matter, can evolve in a positive manner, we might as well give up or request invasion by the superior Scandinavians. Culture is not set in stone. It evolves, adapts. Better or worse depend a good deal on subjective appraisal.

I must say I don't really understand the sensitivity about the subject.


Some cultures excel in certain aspects more than others do. However, it is not all that simple to change one single aspect of a culture. It is usually part of culture at large, makes sense within that entire culture. This culture at large one may even find preferable as a whole, despite its insufferable aspects.


So Greek culture is crap, Germanic culture is better? Not at all. I said last page that I, for one, would prefer life in Portugal over Finland.


for a start, no mass suicide in winter.

[Beskar]

It's all not a matter of rightwing - leftwing.

The Nordic countries are made of glass, they're so transparent. It is a miracle to behold. Everything is open, direct, accessible.

People are employed, judged, on their individual merit, instead of through personal relations. Economic exchange is done without the tedium of close connection to social exchange. No need to have six elaborate lunches before a deal is struck - these are decided upon within twenty minutes of the first contact. The merits of the deal are glossed over, not the person at the table. There is little corruption. Societies are egalitarian - people recognise themselves in each other.
Greece, within Europe, is in all of these aspects at the other end of the scale. It is all not a matter of left or right, nor even of economics. It is cultural.

Sigurd, do you fancy having a new tenant at your place?

[Viking]

I was a bit sarcastic. I meant handouts to the poor not as unemployment benefits, but in affordable housing, decent education for all, accessible healthcare. In the Nordic countries, people who receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes even have the right to vote!! Nor is one's economic status equated with one's moral status.

All of that empowers the working class, allows an economy to draw and develop talent from all social strata, creates social mobility.


The Hobbesian anglo jungles do not, as is so often argued by its proponents, stimulate the poor to get of their lazy behinds. They rather keep the poor in their place. Neo-liberal paradises have the lowest social mobility in the Western world.



~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


It's all not a matter of rightwing - leftwing.

The Nordic countries are made of glass, they're so transparent. It is a miracle to behold. Everything is open, direct, accessible.

People are employed, judged, on their individual merit, instead of through personal relations. Economic exchange is done without the tedium of close connection to social exchange. No need to have six elaborate lunches before a deal is struck - these are decided upon within twenty minutes of the first contact. The merits of the deal are glossed over, not the person at the table. There is little corruption. Societies are egalitarian - people recognise themselves in each other.
Greece, within Europe, is in all of these aspects at the other end of the scale. It is all not a matter of left or right, nor even of economics. It is cultural.

Sounds like paradise. How do I get to these Nordic countries?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sigurd, do you fancy having a new tenant at your place?Do you know the Italian movie La meglio gioventù?

They discuss this topic. One of the main characters lives in Norway. My quote about the Nordic countries being like a glass house was taken directly from him. I can't find that scene just now. Here, however, is an Italian student who just graduated, with a genius conversation with his professor:

(abridged)
'You are talented. Leave Italy. Italy is equally beautiful and useless. Doomed. The dinosaurs will never give up their place to talented youngsters'
'But, but you managed too, you made it too'
'Young man, I am one of those dinosaurs'


The movie is sheer literature. It will teach you more about Italy than a library of books would. Beautiful too, you'll fall in love with it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGJ6DFocyY

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sounds like paradise. How do I get to these Nordic countries? Try the south. Then you will discover the north.

As they say, the last thing a fish will notice is the water around him.

[Viking]

Try the south. Then you will discover the north.

As they say, the last thing a fish will notice is the water around him.

Ach, I was fearing an answer like that. It is true what you say, but I was hoping for figures, analysis, etc; something to cling onto, other than mere statements. ~;)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Loius:

Your point on culture is worthy of consideration...I get a sense of truth from it.

One thing struck me about an earlier post -- corruption. Perhaps that is THE defining element? To the extent that corruption is minimized, perhaps a culture/society can succeed under virtually ANY politico-economic system?

Thus Soviet communism failed not simply because of centrally directed economics, but because of the inherent hypocrisy of the leadership cadre in the old CCCP? What say you?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Thus Soviet communism failed not simply because of centrally directed economics, but because of the inherent hypocrisy of the leadership cadre in the old CCCP? What say you?There is centralised state capitalism: France. There is ultra neo-liberal communism: China.
Both escape the crude scale with free economy on one end and command economy on the other.

It is clear that centralised economies can function, sometimes very well. What did cause the dysfuntioning of Soviet communism, I couldn't say in a brief forum post. Nor, perhaps, in a lenghty essay either.




One thing struck me about an earlier post -- corruption. Perhaps that is THE defining element? To the extent that corruption is minimized, perhaps a culture/society can succeed under virtually ANY politico-economic system?
Do you have any idea how corrupt America and Britain appear to me? The extent to which the state is subordinate to further the private interests of private corporations is shocking to me. However, to an Anglosaxon, it simply means economical freedom. He defines it as economic freedom, will argue for tax reductions for corporations, for a retreat of government, for less regulation.

To an Anglosaxon, Greece appears to be endlessly corrupt. The politicians and the business leaders are not just in bed with one another, they are the very same persons. Contracts for waste disposal go to family members with a linked business. After a rigged bidding process, and to completely untransparant costs. A Greek might not immediately see this as corruption - why else would a local businessmen become mayor of his town if not to further his interests? And doesn't he employ a lot of people, who are dependent on the well-being of this business?


The funny thing is, that both the Anglosaxon and the Greek above will argue that the good of the businesses, which are indeed served in both examples, are the common good. And that criticism of their furthering the interests of their businesses in the manner they do is communist agitation. :balloon2:


Hence why I'm with the socialist protesters in Greece. The bloathed public sector, the corruption - they are not signs of leftwing wrongs to me, but rightist ones. To an American, they are decidedly unrightwing. Which shows the crudeness, perhaps uselessness, of regarding this as a left vs right problem.

[rory_20_uk]

Very good points. Using merely one dimension to define a country paints at best a massively skewed picture.

~:smoking:

[al Roumi]

Loius:

Your point on culture is worthy of consideration...I get a sense of truth from it.

One thing struck me about an earlier post -- corruption. Perhaps that is THE defining element? To the extent that corruption is minimized, perhaps a culture/society can succeed under virtually ANY politico-economic system?

Thus Soviet communism failed not simply because of centrally directed economics, but because of the inherent hypocrisy of the leadership cadre in the old CCCP? What say you?

Slight disconnect between your hypothesis and example: If it is all about corruption, why do you single our planned economics as well??

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Slight disconnect between your hypothesis and example: If it is all about corruption, why do you single our planned economics as well??

I singled it out because, in the USA media and especially talk radio, the CCCP is cited as THE example of how directed central economies are doomed to failure because they run counter to human nature and economic sense. By drawing attention to the corruption/hypocrisy issue using that example, I was trying to explore if THAT was more the cause than what is cited as common wisdom in the USA.


Unlike Louis, I do not see the financial sector as corruption in any inherent fashion. However, the all too frequent fraud and vote buying certainly is.

If Norway has a corruption score near zero, the USA at 20, and Mexico at 87, is THAT more indicative of societal/economic success than whether the economy is directed or response to the whims of the market?

[al Roumi]

I singled it out because, in the USA media and especially talk radio, the CCCP is cited as THE example of how directed central economies are doomed to failure because they run counter to human nature and economic sense. By drawing attention to the corruption/hypocrisy issue using that example, I was trying to explore if THAT was more the cause than what is cited as common wisdom in the USA.

Unlike Louis, I do not see the financial sector as corruption in any inherent fashion. However, the all too frequent fraud and vote buying certainly is.

If Norway has a corruption score near zero, the USA at 20, and Mexico at 87, is THAT more indicative of societal/economic success than whether the economy is directed or response to the whims of the market?

If that last sentence (on what represents the "success" of a society/economy -i.e. the degree of free-market orientation) represents conventional wisdom in the US, I am happy that you challenge it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Unlike Louis, I do not see the financial sector as corruption in any inherent fashion. However, the all too frequent fraud and vote buying certainly is.

From what I read I would say that he doesn't see the financial industry as corrupt per se, merely that the Wallstreet/City incarnation thereof shows a disturbing, unhealthy trend to complex financial `constructions' (or outright fraud) which are seemingly designed to benefit a few rich entrepreneurs at the cost of the taxpayer, the same entrepreneurs who then have the chutzpah to demand less regulation from the financial authorities.


Remember that Nasdaq guy and his Pyramid scheme? Is that a mere isolated incident or a more systemic cancer?
What about Enron?
What about Porsche?
What about Lehman?
Should there be firm safeguards against such exploits and mis-management?
Should there be repercussions for those involved that have meaningful consequence?
Why should such supposedly isolated financial games affect so large a population; have the power plunge the world into economic recession?
Should there be repercussions for those involved that have meaningful consequence?

Here's the Freemarket-capitalist answer to those:


Isolated, really bad of him to do that.
Isolated, really bad of them.
Incident, good on Porsche.
Isolated, even if that did take out half the finance sector of the world for a day or two.
No, it's a free market baby!
Nah, just chuck the culprits in prison, fine them or whatever; and as far as the duped are concerned: :daisy:s!
Look: it is a free market, that's the free market that happens. And yes such consequences are all really awful and everything, but hey if there wasn't state regulation at all we would not be seeing any of this. Say that 50 times fast, maybe it rings true then.
What, wait: no way, no repercussions. We're having this free market here, and you would go spoil that with your dirty regulation? Where's my gun?

Okay, I do overdo it a bit. But there's something you can't easily define about the Wallstreet/City model of capitalism that doesn't sit well with values such as `responsibility', `transparency', or even `honesty'. Things that original free market ideology was built on. That does reek of corruption. Maybe ideas go off?

[Dîn-Heru]

Loius:

Your point on culture is worthy of consideration...I get a sense of truth from it.

One thing struck me about an earlier post -- corruption. Perhaps that is THE defining element? To the extent that corruption is minimized, perhaps a culture/society can succeed under virtually ANY politico-economic system?

Thus Soviet communism failed not simply because of centrally directed economics, but because of the inherent hypocrisy of the leadership cadre in the old CCCP? What say you?


I did my bachelor thesis on corruption and economic growth, and the studies I read seemed to indicate that how corruption is organised, ie whether it is systematic or arbitrary, is a good predictor of how damaging corruption is. This means that a country can have much corruption and not suffer, ie have high growth. What is important is eliminating uncertainty in the system. Mo (2001) for instance found that 53% of the link between corruption and growth is through corruption causing political instability (= uncertainty about economical conditions).

If you are interested in reading more, search for Andrei Shleifer and Robert Vishny (1993), or Blackburn and Forgues-Poccio (2009) and also Campos et.al (2002 (I think it was))

[Strike For The South]

Many of the reasons why American companies rape us is because the governments give them carte blanche and arm them with cool tax breaks

if they stayed out there would be no financial crisis.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I did my bachelor thesis on corruption and economic growth, and the studies I read seemed to indicate that how corruption is organised, ie whether it is systematic or arbitrary, is a good predictor of how damaging corruption is. This means that a country can have much corruption and not suffer, ie have high growth. What is important is eliminating uncertainty in the system. Mo (2001) for instance found that 53% of the link between corruption and growth is through corruption causing political instability (= uncertainty about economical conditions).

If you are interested in reading more, search for Andrei Shleifer and Robert Vishny (1993), or Blackburn and Forgues-Poccio (2009) and also Campos et.al (2002 (I think it was))Very interesting. I always love if when some orgah turns out to be a real experts and teach us pompous amateurs the real deal!



Many of the reasons why American companies rape us is because the governments give them carte blanche and arm them with cool tax breaks Oh, Strike, no. Please don't use that term. It is very offensive.

[Beskar]

Many of the reasons why American companies rape us is because the governments give them carte blanche and arm them with cool tax breaks

if they stayed out there would be no financial crisis.

No, if the government got their behinds in, then there would be no financial crisis, it is the other way round. It is because Americans love to give power to the exploiters of wealth, it is why they all happen.

If there would some one like myself running the country, there wouldn't be a boom-bust through our creation.

On the other hand, America has caused all the world-wide great depressions, on purpose. The very rich benefit in depressions, all the stocks hit the floor, then they buy them all up. The stocks always naturally recover. I know this, because I invested £1000 on the stock market doing this, and now have stocks worth £10,000. Now imagine if I was a millionaire, I would have really been raking the money in.

I haven't got an economics degree, but if I can easily see the fraud going on, and see how easy it is to benefit from it (like I just even showed you), perhaps when I say something, I am not being incorrect.

[Furunculus]

If there would some one like myself running the country, there wouldn't be a boom-bust through our creation.

On the other hand, America has caused all the world-wide great depressions, on purpose.
lol, didn't brown make the same claim...............?

and lol, really just; lol.

[Furunculus]

america also has problems:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/edmundconway/100005702/us-faces-one-of-biggest-budget-crunches-in-western-world-imf/

interesting article, worth a read.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Odd, isn't it, how everyone seems to have significant financial problems except the bankers to whom we handed over all our money.

There's a lesson in there somewhere; if only I could put my finger on it.

[Beskar]

Odd, isn't it, how everyone seems to have significant financial problems except the bankers to whom we handed over all our money.

There's a lesson in there somewhere; if only I could put my finger on it.

You might have some one reply "lol" at you over such a comment, to denounce you, or they tell you how those bankers were hard-working men and women, and you should be happy for them, for making money in a recession they caused.

[Furunculus]

You might have some one reply "lol" at you over such a comment, to denounce you, or they tell you how those bankers were hard-working men and women, and you should be happy for them, for making money in a recession they caused.

lol, so it was nothing to do with our political masters keeping interest rates too low at the same time as encouraging 'social' lending to the un-creditworthy?

[Furunculus]

Odd, isn't it, how everyone seems to have significant financial problems except the bankers to whom we handed over all our money.

There's a lesson in there somewhere; if only I could put my finger on it.

any reaction other than; "lets encourage them to make as much damned money as they possibly can!" is thoroughly ridiculous.

the EU's recent rules on Hedge Funds are totally inept, utterly incompetent, and borderline retarded.

the EU is 300m strong economic zone with an rapidly aging population, extremely poor prospects for long-term growth, an unworkable monetary union, totally lacking in a unified Demos that will accept a reality of a transfer-union....................................... and its reaction is to add MORE regulation and taxation to business!

the EU is not the future, it is currently a slow and painful death where standards of living will slip to that of Romania with the lifteime of children alive today.

in comparison, China and India represent an economic zone of 2.5b strong with a growing population and a compound GDP growth rate that averages around 10%, who are exactly the kind of markets that have a strong and growing demand for the goods and services of an advanced western nation that isn't fearfully huddling inside a tariff barrier in fear of the big bad world whilst it willfully ignores its diminishing resources.

52% of the value of good and services traded by Britain currently go to the continent, I absolutely GUARENTEE that that figure will shrink massively in the coming generation, provided we stay out of the federalist circle-jerk that is EU's fetish with ever-deeper-union.

[gaelic cowboy]

lol, so it was nothing to do with our political masters keeping interest rates too low at the same time as encouraging 'social' lending to the un-creditworthy?

Goes for big long post and then gives up and says NO to your thesis.

[gaelic cowboy]

@ furunculus

Our political masters do what there told and its not the voters telling them allow more lending but big banks etc etc. Go google the meeting between the big banks and the US politicians were they basically said let us lend out more so we can make more as we have this new scheme which spreads the risk. How quaint it all seems now a debt became an asset overnight.

[Furunculus]

i don't deny that there have been dodgy financial instruments, the key part of my question that you should focus on here was the scepticism that only teh evil bankers were responsible for the melt-down.

[gaelic cowboy]

i don't deny that there have been dodgy financial instruments, the key part of my question that you should focus on here was the scepticism that only teh evil bankers were responsible for the melt-down.

Agreed

[gaelic cowboy]

I will try and post some data thats of interest with regard to Ireland I really don't see the point of posting a separate Irish thread.

Putting the brakes on rising prices helped to ease the pain yea Xbox 360 games are down (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/putting-the-brakes-on-rising-prices-helped-to-ease-the-pain-2182056.html)

Few raised eyebrows at this one apparently recession over is over I will reserve judgement even if employment is a lagging indicator (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/recession-over-long-live-recovery-says-bullish-goodbody-2179647.html)

[Furunculus]

encouraging articles for Ireland's part.

we can only hope the med nations see a similar bounce.

[gaelic cowboy]

We are basically about two years into a series of spending cuts and reforms and the indicators are shall we say at least encouraging.

We are doing as much as is acceptable in todays terms as long as all the social partners knuckle down together we will pay back the debt.

However we may not get the chance to do that if our bond rates go up due to unforeseen circumstances like a euro member default.

However a default will not happen this year but I cannot speak for next year so fingers toes arms and legs crossed.

[Jolt]

Financial strongmen are also saying Portugal is going in the right direction. Estimates for the next year put the deficit at an acceptable level of 4.7%

[gaelic cowboy]

Financial strongmen are also saying Portugal is going in the right direction. Estimates for the next year put the deficit at an acceptable level of 4.7%

Yes in fact I have been reading a lot of the same thing lately about Portugal

[Beskar]

Furunculus, the reason those "countries" have such economical boosts is because they pay the working class and children £7 a week to make 1000 stacks of clothing which gets sold in other nations such as America for £20 each. Then put it in their economy figures to show the world how great they are and how GDP means everything.

Or, we could have a civilised society where the effects of wage-slavery is significantly decreased so we can live meaningful lives.

[Furunculus]

or you could realise that they are going to keep on paying £7/week for cheap manufactured goods, an act that will erode the living standards of fat western countries who think they can still make cheap manufactured goods.

there are two choices:

1) protection of moribund industries which will see our living standards decline to that of Romania within the lifetime of children alive today, hell, don't take my word for it just have a look at Wallonia.
2) compete on innovation of services and technology to become a supplier of said innovative high value goods, to those very same developing countries, and preserve living standards at a similar level to that enjoyed today.

one of those options will allow your empathetic and moralising yoghurt knitters to keep on funding your disability benefits and your marriage guidance counsellors, and the other won't, care to guess which is which?

adapt or die*, that simple.


* read: live in poverty

[gaelic cowboy]

@Beskar I would not heed the low wages as much as the fact they use most the money to buy dollars, euro and the other big currency countries. By doing this they can allow us to continue to consume there products but this can only continue if they do not spend more on social services an education etc. By doing this they can undercut us in manufacturing and help us to buy there products and they can give there people jobs to qwell unrest

[gaelic cowboy]

or you could realise that they are going to keep on paying £7/week for cheap manufactured goods, an act that will erode the living standards of fat western countries who think they can still make cheap manufactured goods.

there are two choices:

1) protection of moribund industries which will see our living standards decline to that of Romania within the lifetime of children alive today, hell, don't take my word for it just have a look at Wallonia.
2) compete on innovation of services and technology to become a supplier of said innovative high value goods, to those very same developing countries, and preserve living standards at a similar level to that enjoyed today.

one of those options will allow your empathetic and moralising yoghurt knitters to keep on funding your disability benefits and your marriage guidance counsellors, and the other won't, care to guess which is which?

adapt or die*, that simple.


* read: live in poverty

Just one point I would like to make when was the last time you talked to an English person on a telephone helpline services can be outsourced too. And the trend would be to outsource higher ones too the trouble with moving to higher a value economy is it will result in very high unemployment and could disappear overnight with no spread of industry. If a country can it should try to automate its industry more and more which requires investment simply giving up will result in no jobs eventually

[Furunculus]

Just one point I would like to make when was the last time you talked to an English person on a telephone helpline services can be outsourced too. And the trend would be to outsource higher ones too the trouble with moving to higher a value economy is it will result in very high unemployment and could disappear overnight with no spread of industry. If a country can it should try to automate its industry more and more which requires investment simply giving up will result in no jobs eventually

there is no alternative to the rise of the megalith developing nations but to move ever higher up the value chain, for only by producing high value goods and services will we maintain a level of relative wealth that will preserve living standards as they are.

high value services means high value, not some pleb working in an O2 customer support call-centre. notably london is the place where 85% of Euros are traded, not to mention 95% of metals.

high value goods means high value, not some brummie car-plant churning out cheap and cheerful family cars by the tens of thousand. what we are talking about is high-level engineering backed up by strong R&D.

adapt or die.

[gaelic cowboy]

there is no alternative to the rise of the megalith developing nations but to move ever higher up the value chain, for only by producing high value goods and services will we maintain a level of relative wealth that will preserve living standards as they are.

high value services means high value, not some pleb working in an O2 customer support call-centre. notably london is the place where 85% of Euros are traded, not to mention 95% of metals.

high value goods means high value, not some brummie car-plant churning out cheap and cheerful family cars by the tens of thousand. what we are talking about is high-level engineering backed up by strong R&D.

adapt or die.

My point is that O2 guy used to be high value too once and if you think that China and the rest of the new countries are incapable of developing there own high value services they you are in for a big shock one day soon.

My idea would be to try at least try to remove the wage element from the cost base through more and more automation both physical automation and process automation etc etc China has a good price but materials, excise etc are pretty much the same all over wages is the wests problem. People in the west prefer there brands western and there smart enough now to know the benefit of making it here too also if as I suspect a significant element of carbon taxing comes into play one day filling a boat from China could get dearer one day.

If all low skill manufacturing is outsourced without a squeak then there will be no high value stuff later as industry needs a foundation for basic skills etc in order to move up a chain later. The adaptation I think we should be using is in our ability to use tech to reduce our costs this will bite us in the ass eventually.

I am sure you have figured by now I do not want to build walls around industry I prefer to think of it as using the first steam engines in Britain I believe it was in the economist awhile back. In order to empty waterfilled mines in Britain which had a higher cost base then than continential Europe for mining they used automation and so did not abandon mining. I worry that we are getting far too clever for our own good with this rush to proclaim that the west is incapable of producing cheap goods healthy economies are diverse and your thesis is not.

Unfortunately I think the people with the money and the ones who take there orders have already made the decision on this long ago and no amount of reasoned argument from me will change them which is a shame.

mods sorry for wandering off topic

[Louis VI the Fat]

Unfortunately I think the people with the money and the ones who take there orders have already made the decision on this long ago and no amount of reasoned argument from me will change them which is a shame.I would agree with you.


*insert lengthy economical and geopolitical exposé*



Thatcher closed Wales, Scotland and the North. NuLab and Furunculus agree on one thing: the rest of England doesn't matter either. Only the City and its financial services matter. Hey, the City did boom under NuLab the past fifteen years, waking from its decades long slump, eclipsing even New York in the process.

[Fragony]

http://www.southeast-europe.eu/

Que? A festival to take away doubt about further expansion?

[Furunculus]

Thatcher closed Wales, Scotland and the North.

NuLab and Furunculus agree on one thing: the rest of England doesn't matter either. Only the City and its financial services matter.

Hey, the City did boom under NuLab the past fifteen years, waking from its decades long slump, eclipsing even New York in the process.
Thatcher killed off the state subsidies that propped up moribund industries that contributed nothing towards britain's long term prosperity, and actually did a lot to retard medium term prosperity given that the scale of the subsidies retarded overall growth.

No, i don't agree with NuLab on that, as my two previous post make very clear what i want is both high-value innovation in services AND goods. less hyperbole, more fact please.

Indeed the City has contributed a great deal to the exchequer in the last 20 years, which is surely a good thing for all the moralising poseurs who like to feel good about themselves by cheering on each new gender awareness officer employed by some feckless local council. take that away and social spending will decline, does that make you happy, or is it that you just want to punish the bankers for their evil ways?

[rory_20_uk]

You see, successful businesses make money. These lost money for several decades.

Being state run they were viewed as piggy banks with endless money by certain groups who then forgot the idea was to sell things, not merely turn up and cook up new ways to get a pay rise.

Royal Mail is another case in point: "increased efficiency - but what will happen to all our members whos jobs are currently leading to year on year loesses??!?"

~:smoking:

[Husar]

there is no alternative to the rise of the megalith developing nations but to move ever higher up the value chain, for only by producing high value goods and services will we maintain a level of relative wealth that will preserve living standards as they are.

So in other words, improving means stagnation and also keeping the others down? :inquisitive: :dizzy2:


adapt or die.

Oh yes, that's living the dream, and so much for an Orwellian society...

[Furunculus]

errr, at what point did you make the faulty leap in logic to assume that i was saying that:
1. continual evolution = stagnation
2. that providing high-value goods and services (which command a high return) = keeping other people down

it may sound dramatic, but it is true, if you provide low value goods and services which generate a low return you will be poorer, and the country's balance of payments will worsen as you are forced to import those high-value goods from other countries which will accelerate the rate at which wealth is transferred from the rich west (where i get free hospitals and pensions) to the developing east (where they don't).

do you see the pattern? in a different but similar example; you as a hard-working german are transferring your countries wealth to prop-up the not so hard working greece, how does that feel, knowing that your hospitals and pension provisions will take a hit?

[Furunculus]

oops, congress isn't happy about the IMF using US funds to bail-out out hopeless causes (read: Greece) for political reasons, when the money could be better utilised bailing out worthy causes (read: Spain) for genuine economic reasons:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100005734/congress-blocks-indiscriminate-imf-aid-for-europe/

[Beskar]

The problem is, high-tech manufacturing gets outsources to places like China as well. For incidence, the iPod/iPhones, etc.

This means China is the only place with all the facilities and they know exactly how these products are made, in otherwords, they are getting free R&D and investment from the West. It would be akin to the Japanese TV Crisis in America, where they outsourced televisions to Japan, then Japan turned around and sold their own to America, etc, which killed off all the American brands and thus why we are watching TV on our Sony's and Samsung's, etc.

So while you say about innovation for example in high-value goods and services, these are getting exported as they are.

[Furunculus]

you getting obsessed with the whole idea of actually making things, when what really matters is where the value of those goods resides:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/edmundconway/100002310/what-the-ipod-tells-us-about-britains-economic-future/

Our expertise as at R&D and high-level design means that Britain benefits from every single Ipod and smartphone in existence, regardless of the fact the are made in China and sold in America, because each and every one of them contains high-value IP licensed from ARM and PowerVR. That situation is repeated all over Britain, with us creating crazy stuff at a faster rate than the competition and licensing off rights to manufacture to everybody else.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/arm/7138748/ARM-soars-as-FTSE-100-listing-beckons.html

http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=22823

and just in case the point needs to be laboured yet further:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/edmundconway/6658672/Shock-news-Britain-still-makes-things.html

[rory_20_uk]

Although a coutry based on such high-value goods would be ideal, sadly most people have neither the ability or the inclination to be a part of that. Jobs are needed for the Betas, Deltas and Gammas in society and manufacturing is one of the best places.

It keeps then busy and is physically demanding. Like and good dog trainer knows, you need exercise and discipline as well as rewards to keep a happy pet.

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

we're still the 6th largest exporter in the world so that's still true today, but it is high value goods and services that will mean that our retirement in 30 years or so time will be near as comfortable as it is now rather than resembling Romania.

[Beskar]

you getting obsessed with the whole idea of actually making things, when what really matters is where the value of those goods resides:


But then the Chinese will have all the intellectual property, the means to do their own research, then they can flood the markets with their "Chinese iPod" version, irrespective of whatever IP's there are. This is what the Japanese did with the American Televisions, and now look at the world, Sony, Samsung, etc are the world leaders. They got all the production, all the intellectual property, etc, all from those American outsourcers.

[Furunculus]

But then the Chinese will have all the intellectual property, the means to do their own research, then they can flood the markets with their "Chinese iPod" version, irrespective of whatever IP's there are. This is what the Japanese did with the American Televisions, and now look at the world, Sony, Samsung, etc are the world leaders. They got all the production, all the intellectual property, etc, all from those American outsourcers.
if it was that easy then ARM holdings would not not be a FTSE100 listed company.

adapt or die*



* metaphorically speaking for the slow of wit.

[Beskar]

if it was that easy then ARM holdings would not not be a FTSE100 listed company.

adapt or die*
* metaphorically speaking for the slow of wit.

Indeed, we are going to die by your words. Because we give everything to China, they adapt, then we are left with nothing.

[Furunculus]

Wrong, people keep on licensing ARM and PowerVR products because they cannot match the pace of development maintained by these specialists, and if they did attempt it then they would merely end up throwing billions down the drain to create an out-of-date competitor.

I repeat; ARM just became a FTSE100 member for a reason, because people brighter than you or I have a great deal of confidence that their business model works, and works very well.

[Beskar]

Sorry, I wasn't aware the United Kingdom was relied so much on one (or a small handful) of companies. :rolleyes:

On the otherhand, what am I saying has had a track record in the past and since the future competitors is getting the IP directly from ARM for example, it means in the future that they can use their own work against them in the competitive market, just as happened in the past, many times before.

I mean, as the nationalist, I would have thought you actually agreeing with what I am saying, as I am talking about the sustainability in the United Kingdom.

[Furunculus]

Is that a back-handed way of admitting you were wrong, but disguising it by making another wrong statement (i gave examples of ARM and PowerVR)?

Yes people nick IP, this is not news, but it's why we try to shoehorn everyone into WIPO membership so there are mechanisms for redress.

Why would my being a nationalist cause me to agree with you that Britain's future as a prosperous nation does not depend of extreme innovation in high-value goods and services.......... i'm confused?

[Beskar]

Why would my being a nationalist cause me to agree with you that Britain's future as a prosperous nation does not depend of extreme innovation in high-value goods and services.......... i'm confused?

You can still do that and manufacture goods in Britain. Tesco for pure example is one of the top of the FTSE100 list, and they basically got all of their money in Britain. From the gamma's stocking selves, and economics of scale.

Also, by sending our IP all over the world, we become less and less relevant overtime, as afterall, some one needs to manufacture and use this IP and by doing that, we train them and expose them to our IP so they can take-over what we originally started.

While I am not advocating everything needs to be homegrown, but for the "West" to maintain its status, it needs to stop giving everything away, so those others nations end up superior than the west and as you put it, the west dies. I am pretty much arguing that what you are saying will not cause the results you want.

[Husar]

1. continual evolution = stagnation

[...] to move ever higher up the value chain,[...] preserve living standards as they are.
Moving up to keep things as they are, evolution to get stagnation, it's right there.


2. that providing high-value goods and services (which command a high return) = keeping other people down

maintain a level of relative wealth
You see, I read that as relative to the other nations, combined with part one, where we stagnate, we're actually trying to keep them down...somehow...


it may sound dramatic, but it is true, if you provide low value goods and services which generate a low return you will be poorer, and the country's balance of payments will worsen as you are forced to import those high-value goods from other countries which will accelerate the rate at which wealth is transferred from the rich west (where i get free hospitals and pensions) to the developing east (where they don't).
Then why aren't China etc. staying poor due to all the low-value goods they're producing?
It doesn't make sense to claim that countries producing low-value goods stay poor and then say China, which produces mostly low-value goods, is threatening us all economically.

[Ironside]

lol, so it was nothing to do with our political masters keeping interest rates too low at the same time as encouraging 'social' lending to the un-creditworthy?



high value services means high value, not some pleb working in an O2 customer support call-centre. notably london is the place where 85% of Euros are traded, not to mention 95% of metals.

adapt or die.

You don't think this is related?... London didn't rapidly exand as a financial center because of it's known to be a decent tourist city.

Now there's also the question were the remaining 95% of London workforce is supposed to find these high value jobs.
As Rory cynically mentioned, you'll need as high employment as possible for the society and financial system to work well. For those high value jobs, there's a simple question. Are there enough of them? And no "the market will create more jobs", unless you wish to explain how the industry will produce more jobs by producing more and reducing the number of employed. It's an inadecute explaination and will fall horribly if it's market efficient to have a smaller workforce.

Sure I can agree with adapt or die, the question is if that adaptation is a dead end fairly soon.

[gaelic cowboy]

I have a feeling that mad as it seems now but I think that in maybe 100yrs Ireland, Britain, France and Holland will end up being agri bread baskets for the for Asia and Mid East.

Maybe the kids should be doing agri-science and GM courses those bloody financiers cant outsource a field of Cork grass or a French orchard yet. There is probably still plenty of automation that can be put in the agri world there's robotic dairy farms, farm networks to track food and watch housed animals on web cams while the farmer works in part time job and tracks the intake and outputs in beef production on his iPhone it's all there.

Naturally this would be a shot in the dark for a major western country and the howls from the hedge funds would probably deafen you so you would get little investment due to long term payoff nature of the agri business but if you want summit solid then own land and plant some spuds.

Hell Greek debt crisis comes and society turns into a mad max hellhole anyone who can make it to mayo will be sound for a plate at the Cowboys house. :jester:

[Jolt]

I have a feeling that mad as it seems now but I think that in maybe 100yrs Ireland, Britain, France and Holland will end up being agri bread baskets for the for Asia and Mid East.

Unless something drastically changes with European soil, I doubt very much. European soil isn't well suited for agriculture, which partly explains the low productivity of the European farmers in relation with other countries and the EU's ferocious protectionism of its agriculture.

[gaelic cowboy]

Unless something drastically changes with European soil, I doubt very much. European soil isn't well suited for agriculture, which partly explains the low productivity of the European farmers in relation with other countries and the EU's ferocious protectionism of its agriculture.

Who said anything about growing anything in soil??????? And grass does not need huge fertility it's huge benefit in Europe is that it rains regular and that grass is cheap just ask NZ farmers. French products are mainly high value as Furunculus keeps telling us we need to move too and Holland has market gardening greenhouses etc and it would all be exported for cash because Europe is easily self sufficient many times over.

Your soil is easily treated and as I said there is still a vast amount of RnD and the like that can be do on this plus protectionism will be gone before the end of the century mark my words. Plus you focus on European soil when soil depletion and acidification and a multitude of other problems with soil are happening in America and Australia reducing land area but population is increasing and the more middle class the world becomes the more it will require to eat.

Europe has vast unused potential which is not explained by fertility it is more explained by low investment and high labour costs trust me just cos it might not produce four crops a year does not mean it wont be eaten. The people of the newer regions are growing bigger every day and they all want to eat and I am certain they will pay for it.

[gaelic cowboy]

I think this is good I dunno at least they bought the bonds and expect to get paid back I suppose.

NTMA raises €1.5bn in bond sale (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ntma-raises-euro15bn-in-bond-sale-2184258.html)

The National Treasury Management Agency has sold €1.5bn of bonds in an auction, its first since eurozone leaders unveiled their unprecedented aid package to help indebted euro nations.

Investors bid for 3.1 times the 2014 and 2020 securities offered, the NTMA said today.

It sold €750m of 4pc debt maturing in 2014 to yield an average 3.11pc and €750m of 4.5pc debt maturing in 2020 to yield 4.72pc.

European leaders on May 17 offered a €750bn rescue package as they sought to calm a rout in bond markets.

Concern that the mounting debt crisis in Greece would spread to other nations sent the premium investors charge to hold the debt of countries such as Ireland, Spain and Portugal soaring to euro-era highs earlier this month.

“In the context of recent nervousness in peripheral European government bond markets, this is a good result,” Dublin-based Glas Securities, which specialises in fixed-income markets, said in a note today.

At Ireland’s last auction of 4pc 2014 debt in February, the average yield was 3.03pc. A March auction of 4.5pc bonds maturing in 2020 yielded 4.43pc.

The treasury agency said in an emailed statement that it has raised about 66pc of its planned 2010 bond issuance program. The next auction is scheduled for June 15.

Ireland’s budget gap widened to 14.3pc of gross domestic product in 2009, almost five times the European Union’s 3pc limit. Greece’s deficit was 13.6pc of GDP, while Spain had a 11.2pc shortfall.

The difference in yield, or spread, between 10-year Irish securities and 10-year German bunds, the euro-region’s benchmark government securities, was at 181 basis points this morning. It widened to 306 basis points on May 7.

- Dara Doyle

© Bloomberg

Seeing as it a Greece thread then here is summit else from same paper.

Greece gets first installment of loans (http://www.independent.ie/business/european/greece-gets-first-installment-of-loans-2184388.html)

By Jones Hayden and Natalie Weeks
Tuesday May 18 2010
Greece has received the first installment of a three-year emergency-loan package from eurozone allies, allowing the country to repay €8.5bn euros of bonds due tomorrow and avoid default.

The EU completed the transfer of €14.5bn, with 10 euro-region countries, including Germany, contributing to the first payment, the Athens-based Finance Ministry said today in an emailed statement.

The International Monetary Fund, which is participating in the bailout, made its initial contribution of €5.5bn last week.

The loans will cover Greece’s financing needs for May and June, a Finance Ministry official said yesterday. Tomorrow’s bond redemption is the last Greece faces until €8.6bn of three-year debt matures in March 2011.

“With this money the immediate and short-term borrowing needs and requirements of Greece are covered,” today’s statement said.

Euro-area ministers and the IMF agreed on May 2 to a €110bn aid package for the debt-stricken nation.

Greece pledged to implement austerity measures of almost 14pc of gross domestic product in exchange for the rescue funds that EU officials hoped would stem declines in the euro.

The initial bailout failed to stem the slide in the euro and end the decline in bonds of other high-deficit nations such as Spain and Portugal.

EU leaders on May 9 agreed to a financial lifeline of €750bn to try to stop the contagion. The euro was little changed today at $1.2402 after reaching a four- year low of $1.2235 yesterday.

Prime Minister George Papandreou has raised taxes, cut wages and reduced government spending in a bid to tame a deficit that reached 13.6pc of GDP last year, more than four times the EU limit.

Luxembourg’s Jean-Claude Juncker, who leads the group of euro-area finance ministers, said today that there are “good reasons to believe” Greece is on the right path and officials will continue to evaluate the situation.

The other euro-region countries that contributed to today’s payment are France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Austria, Portugal, Luxembourg, Cyprus and Malta.

- Jones Hayden and Natalie Weeks

© Bloomberg

[gaelic cowboy]

I cannot see this happening myself but sure we will see I suppose.

Lenihan says State will recoup Greek loan (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0518/economy.html)

In case any of you think you have a tough job Brian Lenihan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Lenihan,_Jnr) is our minister for Finance and he also has cancer the poor fella hated and pitied at same time below is a statement from his personal website on it where outlines how he will soldier on.

During the week before Christmas, I underwent tests in hospital which identified a blockage at the entrance to my pancreas. A stent was inserted and the pancreas is now functioning normally. Cancerous tissue has been identified in the material that has caused the blockage. My medical advice is that chemotherapeutic and radiotherapeutic treatment are required. I will begin the treatment later this week.

Notwithstanding this medical condition, I am feeling fit and well. Having discussed the matter with the Taoiseach and having consulted my medical advisers, it is my intention to continue to serve as Minister for Finance. I will not be accepting invitations for speaking engagements in the next few months. I will continue to fulfil the essential functions of my office. I will supervise the work of my Department and meet delegations relevant to this work. I will prepare for and attend Government meetings. I will make myself accountable to Dáil Éireann and carry out my parliamentary duties. I will convene and attend any meetings required for the implementation of Government policy. I will be available for media interviews about my work as Minister, as required. I will continue to represent the constituency of Dublin West to the best of my abilities.

The Government is determined to implement the plan for economic recovery set out in the last two Budgets. That plan has been endorsed by every member of the Government. With the full support of my colleagues I will continue to oversee its implementation.

I am well aware of the importance of the office I hold. My doctors have advised that I am fit to continue to fulfil my duties. If that position were to change in the course of my treatment, I would be the first to recognise it. At all times, I will act in the best interests of the country and in accordance with any medical advice received. I do not intend to issue any further statements about this matter.

I want to thank the very many well wishers who sent me messages of support following media reports of my illness. I have been overwhelmed by the goodwill shown to my family and myself from all sides. I am aware that many have remembered me in their thoughts and prayers. I thank them for it. I hope I can repay this goodwill by continuing to serve to the best of my ability as I undergo treatment for my medical condition.

[Furunculus]

You can still do that and manufacture goods in Britain. Tesco for pure example is one of the top of the FTSE100 list, and they basically got all of their money in Britain. From the gamma's stocking selves, and economics of scale.

Also, by sending our IP all over the world, we become less and less relevant overtime, as afterall, some one needs to manufacture and use this IP and by doing that, we train them and expose them to our IP so they can take-over what we originally started.

While I am not advocating everything needs to be homegrown, but for the "West" to maintain its status, it needs to stop giving everything away, so those others nations end up superior than the west and as you put it, the west dies. I am pretty much arguing that what you are saying will not cause the results you want.
tescos is an excellent example of a company that achieves competitive advantage through innovation in service, fine with me.

it isn't being given away, it is being bought, and the profits reinvested back into the next generation of intellectual property, which other nations will also have to buy because they spent their money buying our IP rather than designing their own.

i'm not argueing against manufacturing in britain, merely pointing out that mass manufacture of low-tech goods like fridges and cheap cars is not something that will help us in the long-term.

Moving up to keep things as they are, evolution to get stagnation, it's right there.

You see, I read that as relative to the other nations, combined with part one, where we stagnate, we're actually trying to keep them down...somehow...

Then why aren't China etc. staying poor due to all the low-value goods they're producing?
It doesn't make sense to claim that countries producing low-value goods stay poor and then say China, which produces mostly low-value goods, is threatening us all economically.
maintaining our standard of living is hardly a good example of stagnation now is it.

free-trade floats all boats, but the higher the value of goods and services you provide the higher the value you retain in your own economy, a fact that preserves are comfortable living standards. quelle probleme?

because they start off from a position of poverty, and therefore low costs, whereas we exist with high-costs. it's not a difficult economic concept, really.

You don't think this is related?... London didn't rapidly exand as a financial center because of it's known to be a decent tourist city.

Now there's also the question were the remaining 95% of London workforce is supposed to find these high value jobs.
As Rory cynically mentioned, you'll need as high employment as possible for the society and financial system to work well. For those high value jobs, there's a simple question. Are there enough of them? And no "the market will create more jobs", unless you wish to explain how the industry will produce more jobs by producing more and reducing the number of employed. It's an inadequate explanation and will fall horribly if it's market efficient to have a smaller workforce.

Sure I can agree with adapt or die, the question is if that adaptation is a dead end fairly soon.
i really don't get what your saying there...........?

not everyone can or needs to have a high-value job, but it is also not difficult to realise that places like london and the south east generate a vast excess of tax revenue which pays for services in areas of the country that are a net-drain on resources, because they generate high-value services which bring in a high net revenue.

i don't believe it is.

[Jolt]

Who said anything about growing anything in soil??????? And grass does not need huge fertility it's huge benefit in Europe is that it rains regular and that grass is cheap just ask NZ farmers.

EUSOILS reference to soils: "Agricultural soil is a precious and limited resource. Soil is the medium that enables us to grow our food[...] It is not an understatement to say that soil is one of the key issues on which agriculture is based and, thus, fundamental to the existence of human society."

It is not a matter of finding grass. There may be plentiful grass in mountainous areas, but you aren't going to plant much there.


French products are mainly high value as Furunculus keeps telling us we need to move too and Holland has market gardening greenhouses etc and it would all be exported for cash because Europe is easily self sufficient many times over.

Eh? What are you ranting on about? I didn't manage to catch anything on it.

First what does high added value products have to do with anything? Agricultural products are NOT high added value products in any way.

Second, large-scale agriculture (Required to become the breadbasket of anything - and you said of the world EDIT: Asia and Africa.), isn't done in greenhouse workshops. Sticking your agriculture to greenhouses isn't going to make you the bread-basket of anything.

I had to make an essay of the CAP for International Economic Relations. The rationale behind CAP is for Europe to be self-sustainable in agricultural products, and to protect domestic players from extra-EU competitors. Such a protection is needed due to many reasons, amongst those is the productivity of European agriculture, which is very significantly impacted by the inadequateness of the European soil. A notable example of why the overall productivity of European agriculture is suffering can be given by the fact that EU subsdies do not even try to respect or foment an economy of scale. Simply put, they are more concerned with making up for the lack productivity with subsidies, to make sure our farmers don't go out of work while the markets are flooded by cheaper Extra-EU agricultural products, thus even supporting the larger agricultural firms to make sure their Intra and Extra-EU quota stays high and they stay competitive globally.

Another clear example is the price floor (Minimum price) the EU imposes for imported Extra-EU agricultural products so these can only be sold with a cost inside the margin of cost for the European producers, so the (large) European producers can easily compete with imported products.


The true breadbaskets are the same suspects as usual. We cannot have the productivity of the Pampas region, the Gran Chaco region, the Prairie States of the US and Canada, Ukraine and the Chernozem corridor of Russia.

[Furunculus]

Germany's move to ban short-selling gets more disgust heaped upon it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/7741925/Shooting-the-messenger-wont-save-the-euro.html

[gaelic cowboy]

EUSOILS reference to soils: "Agricultural soil is a precious and limited resource. Soil is the medium that enables us to grow our food[...] It is not an understatement to say that soil is one of the key issues on which agriculture is based and, thus, fundamental to the existence of human society."

Of course it is my fault I used the term breadbasket which has connotations of some kind of massive Iowa style farm I am talking cattle here.



It is not a matter of finding grass. There may be plentiful grass in mountainous areas, but you aren't going to plant much there.

You don't plant in grass you bale and feed it to housed cattle and make beef or milk.




Eh? What are you ranting on about? I didn't manage to catch anything on it.

First what does high added value products have to do with anything? Agricultural products are NOT high added value products in any way.

Sorry its following on from earlier in the thread about the outsourcing of manufacturing from europe Furunculus keeps saying adapt or die that you must sell high value products and many agri products are finished to a very high quality in europe and sold for a big markup due to the luxury nature of the product in question thats what I meant by high value.




Second, large-scale agriculture (Required to become the breadbasket of anything - and you said of the world EDIT: Asia and Africa.), isn't done in greenhouse workshops. Sticking your agriculture to greenhouses isn't going to make you the bread-basket of anything.
The true breadbaskets are the same suspects as usual. We cannot have the productivity of the Pampas region, the Gran Chaco region, the Prairie States of the US and Canada, Ukraine and the Chernozem corridor of Russia.

Not all agri product that have high value require a field flowers are an example of products that will make big money. Ok so maybe not everything is grown in a greenhouse but I am talking in a generic sense about investment in all sorts of thing and greenhouses are one of those investmenst I also mentioned agri science gm crops and the use of robots etc etc.



I had to make an essay of the CAP for International Economic Relations. The rationale behind CAP is for Europe to be self-sustainable in agricultural products, and to protect domestic players from extra-EU competitors. Such a protection is needed due to many reasons, amongst those is the productivity of European agriculture, which is very significantly impacted by the inadequateness of the European soil. A notable example of why the overall productivity of European agriculture is suffering can be given by the fact that EU subsdies do not even try to respect or foment an economy of scale. Simply put, they are more concerned with making up for the lack productivity with subsidies, to make sure our farmers don't go out of work while the markets are flooded by cheaper Extra-EU agricultural products, thus even supporting the larger agricultural firms to make sure their Intra and Extra-EU quota stays high and they stay competitive globally.

Another clear example is the price floor (Minimum price) the EU imposes for imported Extra-EU agricultural products so these can only be sold with a cost inside the margin of cost for the European producers, so the (large) European producers can easily compete with imported products.


The true breadbaskets are the same suspects as usual. We cannot have the productivity of the Pampas region, the Gran Chaco region, the Prairie States of the US and Canada, Ukraine and the Chernozem corridor of Russia.

Remember this is just a thought experiment its not talking about today but the future in 2100 its just a thought on a possible future. I am well aware of the black soil in Ukraine but the foods in Europe are higher value Grapes which make wine pork which becomes parma ham I could go on and on. CAP is not the only thing that affect farmers in europe labour, energy, hygiene and quality standards etc etc these all add to the price.

In the idea the world would be richer and full of maybe 8-9billion people who will to be fed one region won't feed that many we will have to use more land ie more investent more use etc etc.

In short just to recap I was talking in a generic sense about a possible future that could be invested in to secure both manufacturing jobs processing jobs and production jobs and all the attendent services along with it too and many other skills in the wider economy by moving to big agri production. Look I understand its not really going to happen but hell stranger things have happened. Mainly this is not going to happen because the economy would have to reorient itself to achieve this senario however it would be more secure you cant outsource a field and be practically gauranteed a market with the rise of Asia.

[Furunculus]

the euro, as we currently know it, is a finished:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeffrandall/7746806/Whatever-Germany-does-the-euro-as-we-know-it-is-dead.html

interesting erad

[Fragony]

Good read and good riddance. Benelux + Germany = win. What's the rest of Europe going to do about it if we hang them out to dry. We are Europe's engine we can do as we please.

[Jolt]

Good read and good riddance. Benelux + Germany = win. What's the rest of Europe going to do about it if we hang them out to dry. We are Europe's engine we can do as we please.

In automobile physionomy, if anything, Germany is the engine and France is the gearbox. The rest are just spare parts.

[Fragony]

In automobile physionomy, if anything, Germany is the engine and France is the gearbox. The rest are just spare parts.

And we are the gate. Europe needs our harbours nobody has such capacity. France is dead weight really, they are in trouble as well.

[Vladimir]

France is dead weight really, they are in trouble as well.

FINALLY someone agrees!

Just kidding. I'm a closet Frenchman. :shrug:

[Kagemusha]

And we are the gate. Europe needs our harbours nobody has such capacity. France is dead weight really, they are in trouble as well.

Well in that case i guess we can form our Scandinavian Union with Sweden,Norway and Denmark and live happily ever after in our terribly socialist valhalla. I guess we just need some nukes, so Russia will leave us alone.

[Fragony]

Well in that case i guess we can form our Scandinavian Union with Sweden,Norway and Denmark and live happily ever after in our terribly socialist valhalla. I guess we just need some nukes, so Russia will leave us alone.

Awwwwww we got enough nukes for all of us. Join the fun!

[Furunculus]

Well in that case i guess we can form our Scandinavian Union with Sweden,Norway and Denmark and live happily ever after in our terribly socialist valhalla. I guess we just need some nukes, so Russia will leave us alone.

two words for you:

join. nato.

[Beskar]

I love this quote from the telegraph:

Telegraph loyalists with long memories will be shocked by none of this. In 1996, Sir Martin Jacomb, then chairman of the Prudential, set out with great prescience in two pieces for The Sunday Telegraph why a European single currency, without full political integration, would end in disaster.

Hence why Europe is having political integration, to stabilise the economy.

[Furunculus]

did anyone ask the people if they wanted to become european, ah yes, there were some referendums on the question which i recall were lost in france, the netherlands and ireland, and nor did denmark or sweden even want the euro five years earlier.

if germany had a referendum today on lisbon do you think it would pass, not to mention britain!

and what is it the british electorate are continuously told, in the absence of a referendum; "don't be so silly, no-one is talking about federalism, this is just a few technocratic adjustments to make it easier for us to muddle along, phew, people are so excitable!"

which is it?

[Kagemusha]

two words for you:

join. nato.

And become a lapdog of US.Sorry but no thanks.

[PanzerJaeger]

And become a lapdog of US.Sorry but no thanks.

We're such a gentle master, though.

[Vladimir]

And become a lapdog of US.Sorry but no thanks.

Better than a Duchy of Russia.

The U.S. may be the strongest individual power but a Scandinavian and/or continental sub-group would hold considerable influence. At this point, NATO membership is far more beneficial than EU membership.

[Furunculus]

And become a lapdog of US.Sorry but no thanks.

lol, finlandisation is so much better!

[Fragony]

And become a lapdog of US.Sorry but no thanks.

Thx and thx, not going to forget what they did for us. Takes two hands two clean both.

[Kagemusha]

lol, finlandisation is so much better!

Well some of us actually think there are more options then just to become vassals of others and some others should understand that the cold war is over. I can understand the sentiment of some British that it is far better to be influenced by US then the stronger European countries like France or Germany. Those should work hard so Britain could be joined to US as another state.It would atleast protect the fragile pride of them, while they wouldnt have to bother how once great power has become so insignificant.

[Meneldil]

Down with their head I say. It's time the population stands up and invade the City.

The world will be a better place when the last banker will be hung with the last stock-trader's guts.

[Vladimir]

Down with their head I say. It's time the population stands up and invade the City.

The world will be a better place when the last banker will be hung with the last stock-trader's guts.

Hmm, this sounds somewhat familiar. :thinking:

[Meneldil]

I think the first use of the sentence was by Diderot. Back then, he wrote "And with the bowels of the last priest, Let us strangle the last king."

The saying can be used for pretty much anything though. I thought it fitted the thread pretty well. :balloon2:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I love this quote from the telegraph:


Hence why Europe is having political integration, to stabilise the economy.

That's a pretty horrific attitude you've got there. It basically validates the claims made by the Daily Mail that the whole thing is a closet conspiracy to Federalise our nations out of existence.

[Beskar]

That's a pretty horrific attitude you've got there. It basically validates the claims made by the Daily Mail that the whole thing is a closet conspiracy to Federalise our nations out of existence.

I wish it was. Sooner the better.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Whyever would Finland want to join NATO or the EU? It is Finland that has it all (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGWqtwhS2KY).

[Fragony]

Has to be said that Finland IS awesome, these guys are born with a math degree, and you never had a good roast unless you've been there.

[Furunculus]

That's a pretty horrific attitude you've got there. It basically validates the claims made by the Daily Mail that the whole thing is a closet conspiracy to Federalise our nations out of existence.

haha, but remember, it was also Beskar that said this:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?118607-Dawn-of-a-new-EU-European-Conservatives-and-Reformists-Group-springs-into-life&p=2270642&viewfull=1#post2270642

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

haha, but remember, it was also Beskar that said this:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?118607-Dawn-of-a-new-EU-European-Conservatives-and-Reformists-Group-springs-into-life&p=2270642&viewfull=1#post2270642

Beskar is what is known as a "Utopian Atheist", freed from the strictures and comforts of religion he seeks to create a perfect society on Earth through the perfection of mankind. Worse, because he is the final arbiter of his decisions and believes there is no Higher Power he is his own moral judge, and will do what he believes is necessary to attain this goal. In Beskar's case this is ignoring democratic process and popular will.

[Fragony]

He is also pretty cool and more then capable to speak for himselve

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He is also pretty cool and more then capable to speak for himselve

Then I think you should let him. If my analysis of his position is flawed I will be happy to be corrected.

[Meneldil]

haha, but remember, it was also Beskar that said this:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?118607-Dawn-of-a-new-EU-European-Conservatives-and-Reformists-Group-springs-into-life&p=2270642&viewfull=1#post2270642

Wow, the Thought Police hit again. Do you record what everybody says in this forum, or do you bother only when it comes to godless-internationalist-commie-scums?

[Furunculus]

who did the thought police hit last time?

nope, the only post not my own that i have bookmarked was JAG's election prediction, i just happened to remember this post seeing as it appeared relevant to PVC's comment, and it was easy enough to find as i knew it was at the top of a page in the ECR thread.

i don't really brand any group with hate, i leave that to the moralising poseurs on the left of politics who loath and despise thatcher. the most extreme emotion i can ever evoke even for godless-internationalist-commie-scum is benign contempt.

:)


p.s. i don't believe in 'god' either.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wow, the Thought Police hit again. Do you record what everybody says in this forum, or do you bother only when it comes to godless-internationalist-commie-scums?

The "Thought Police" were Orwell's invention for his Godless-Utopian state.

Ahem.

Not believing in God is fine; not believing in God and as a result trying to create paradise on Earth through human effort is doomed to frustration, anger and dispair.

Hence, for example, the Terror in France.

[Beskar]

Wow, that is from a year ago.

Though your reply to the post was a conceptual misunderstanding.

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Let's break down this post into other words:

- People are not taught the key skills they need in order to understand or comprehend information.
- This has a "Fox News"/"Daily Mail" culture of speakers preaching to illiterate masses or don't actually know what is good or bad for themselves.
- My post encourages education, in under to equip the populace with these means, for an informed and education population to make decisions in politics.


Seriously, who would disagree with that statement? How isn't an engaged, informed and educated populace a bad thing for the politics and democracy? (unless you want them only as sheeplike)

[Beskar]

Interesting how attacking my ignostism comes up some how at the same time as attacking me on removing nation states. Especially as they are separate subjects.


Beskar is what is known as a "Utopian Atheist", freed from the strictures and comforts of religion he seeks to create a perfect society on Earth through the perfection of mankind. Worse, because he is the final arbiter of his decisions and believes there is no Higher Power he is his own moral judge, and will do what he believes is necessary to attain this goal. In Beskar's case this is ignoring democratic process and popular will.

In otherwords, Beskar is known as a "Secular Humanist". While its set-up as the atheist bogeyman, it is the position where by Beskar rejects the supernatural invisible men, dusty tomes and dogma from the middle ages, instead preferring reason, ethics, and justice. Using these tenets to form a basis of ethic principles which pretty much sum-up "Treat other people as you would like to be treated yourself."

As for the last part, Beskar said nothing about ignoring any democratic process.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Interesting how you feel the need to ridicule even my name.


Interesting how attacking my ignostism comes up some how at the same time as attacking me on removing nation states. Especially as they are separate subjects.

It is dissapointing how deliberately offensive your reply is, and how predictable.


In otherwords, Beskar is known as a "Secular Humanist".

I prefer my term, I think it's more accurate, and it has the advantage of being explicit. You do after all, do you not, seek to create the perfect world society through human affort and to utterly remove the influence of religion?


While its set-up as the atheist bogeyman, it is the position where by Beskar rejects the supernatural invisible men, dusty tomes and dogma from the middle ages, instead preferring reason, ethics, and justice.

This is a typical atheist slander, where "reason ethics and justice" are claimed to be opposed to religion. This is not so, quite the opposite; totally the opposite in fact. "Reason, ethics and justice", as concepts flourished in the mediaeval period as much, if not more, than the Renaissance or Enlightenment.


Using these tenets to form a basis of ethic principles which pretty much sum-up "Treat other people as you would like to be treated yourself."

As for the last part, Beskar said nothing about ignoring any democratic process.

Pretty weak principles really, you should try harder. I believe you can try harder.

Here are my principles:

1. All life is sacred.

2. It must always be Good which is striven for, and Evil that is resisted.

3. All Law must embody Good, not Evil, and be obeyed for that reason.

4. The use of violence is always wrong.

5. All people are created equal and have the same right to Freedom and Safety.

6. The strong should use their strength to defend the weak, not the enact tyranny.

7. No one person should force their will upon another person by any means.

[gaelic cowboy]

Take it outside lads you might damage the furniture

[LittleGrizzly]

Worse, because he is the final arbiter of his decisions and believes there is no Higher Power he is his own moral judge,

Im sure Beskar is a much better than that moral judge that those physcopaths (god or Allah i believe thier known as) encourage witch hunts, inquisitions, wars, planes into buildings, blowing up abortion clinics, female circumcision, marrying kids off to grown men. Hell at least with an Atheist they have no excuse for thier actions, the religious can fall back on thier ready made excuse, the invisible man wants it!

Give me a guy like Beskar who has to question himself and answer to his conscience not some nutter that has the approval of some invisible entity and a clean conscience always.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Anyone who believes I was initially being provacative should review this sequence:


I love this quote from the telegraph:


Hence why Europe is having political integration, to stabilise the economy.


That's a pretty horrific attitude you've got there. It basically validates the claims made by the Daily Mail that the whole thing is a closet conspiracy to Federalise our nations out of existence.


I wish it was. Sooner the better.

So Beskar advocates a conspiracy to Federalise the EU, i.e. the subversion of honesty democracy.


Worse, because he is the final arbiter of his decisions and believes there is no Higher Power he is his own moral judge,

Im sure Beskar is a much better than that moral judge that those physcopaths (god or Allah i believe thier known as) encourage witch hunts, inquisitions, wars, planes into buildings, blowing up abortion clinics, female circumcision, marrying kids off to grown men. Hell at least with an Atheist they have no excuse for thier actions, the religious can fall back on thier ready made excuse, the invisible man wants it!

Give me a guy like Beskar who has to question himself and answer to his conscience not some nutter that has the approval of some invisible entity and a clean conscience always.

So more fallacious slanders? Why is it you feel the need to employ such? The worst I said was the Beskar, or any atheist, can (if he so wish) determine his own moral standard, dispencing with whatsoever he pleases, and there is no ethical argument that can be mounted against him from within his won paradigm.

This is the philosophical reality, and I believe it's practical application is all to evident in the way the EU is run.

[Beskar]

It is dissapointing how deliberately offensive your reply is, and how predictable.

What is disappointing, you are being so hypocritical about it.


You do after all, do you not, seek to create the perfect world society through human affort and to utterly remove the influence of religion?

Not force the removal religion, that would just occur anyway, as the promises of suffering today for rewards in sugar candy mountain would become a thing of the past.


Pretty weak principles really, you should try harder. I believe you can try harder.

Poor Jesus, being called weak. I believe he said the same thing as me.

[gaelic cowboy]

Hedge funds in €3bn gamble on Irish default (http://www.independent.ie/business/hedge-funds-in-83643bn-gamble-on-irish-default-2191320.html)



I am not one for cheering on Fianna Fail but I cant help but say hup ya boy ya Lenihan, hedge funds are nothing to a man who faces a possibility of death from cancer bring em on.

[LittleGrizzly]

So more fallacious slanders? Why is it you feel the need to employ such? The worst I said was the Beskar, or any atheist, can (if he so wish) determine his own moral standard, dispencing with whatsoever he pleases, and there is no ethical argument that can be mounted against him from within his won paradigm.

This is the philosophical reality, and I believe it's practical application is all to evident in the way the EU is run.

Its not fallacious slanders, these people all had no moral compass, there was no need for one, the invisible man in the sky wanted an inquisition so he got one, obviously its wrong to torture and these people felt bad hearing the screams of anguish but the invisible man is all knowing so it must be done. The invisible man in the sky wanted the great devil (US) punished, these people know that its wrong to murder and didn't want to end thier own lives either, but the invisible man in the sky is all knowing, they are little bugs to his greatness, if they are too stupid to see his great plan then that is thier own limitation!

If Beskar wishes to torture someone or fly a plane into a building he hasn't got the luxury of passing the buck to the invisible man, if he is unsure then he could be wrong, he has no all knowing being he can assume knows best as he plays his own little part, he has to rely on himself and his conscience for what is wrong and what is right.

Basically you are saying that an Atheists ability to setup his own moral standards is a bad thing, I think its a great thing, instead of referring to some invisibile entity for guidance I have to figure out for myself what is right and wrong, if something feels wrong I can't brush it off as the wishes of some all powerful entity if something is wrong then I am in the wrong and have to live with my conscience.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If Beskar wishes to torture someone or fly a plane into a building he hasn't got the luxury of passing the buck to the invisible man, if he is unsure then he could be wrong, he has no all knowing being he can assume knows best as he plays his own little part, he has to rely on himself and his conscience for what is wrong and what is right.

I think things here are getting a bit carried away with the whole atheism/theism issue.

But I would say Beskar's idealism is dangerous in much the way you are portraying a belief in God to be. In the same way a belief in God has allowed believers to kill and trample all over democracy etc, the exact same thing is true for people who subscribe to such absolutist and deterministic political doctrines as Beskar does.

To say that this will necessarily lead to Beskar going down the path of Stalin/Mao/the Khmer Rouge is no less ridiculous than portraying all religious people as equally evil.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What is disappointing, you are being so hypocritical about it.[quote]

Really? In what sense?

In any case, why did you feel the need slander religion, and I think, mine in particular?

I believe I made a salient point, that you are answerable only to yourself.

[quote]Not force the removal religion, that would just occur anyway, as the promises of suffering today for rewards in sugar candy mountain would become a thing of the past.

Experience tells me we will never have a perfect society, and we don't need one. I am now going to make the point you have provoked.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, and most recently Chavez, have all tried to create socialist all-inclusive paradises on Earth, all have failed and decended into despotism. you might be able to chalk one or two up to selfish dishonesty, but there's still something fishy going on. I submit that a similar motivation drives the EU project; and this can most easily be expressed as a belief that people should accept the "better" destiny their superior ordain for them.

It is a form of intellectual soverignty, which resulted in putting the Lisbon Treaty to Ireland twice.


Poor Jesus, being called weak. I believe he said the same thing as me.

I didn't call you weak, I said the principle you espoused was weak, i.e. lacking force. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth here?

He is actually reported to have said, "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets", (Matt 7.12). That verse is part of a much larger set of instructions given to the disciples, and it hardly sums up the whole Gospel, it's a very tiny part of it.

How about, "Love thy neighbour as thy self", (Matt 22.39)? A somewhat harder instruction.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Basically you are saying that an Atheists ability to setup his own moral standards is a bad thing, I think its a great thing, instead of referring to some invisibile entity for guidance I have to figure out for myself what is right and wrong, if something feels wrong I can't brush it off as the wishes of some all powerful entity if something is wrong then I am in the wrong and have to live with my conscience.

I'm not going to bother with the argument, "the God that doesn't exist told people to....." That is silly, if He doesn't exist You cannot blame him for peoples' actions.

As to your question, you assume a personal God, what about Plato's First Cause? Or Spinoza's God?

The point I am making is that without an external moral standard it is possible to dispense with "morality", which no longer really exists, whenever it is convenient. This is what Lenin et al. regularly did. THEY determined what THEY thought was good for the State and THEY enforced it. In any case, you've already proved me right, because you have appealed to your own concience as some form of external and impartial arbitrator in moral issues; which is exactly the role it has in Christianity.

What? Did you think we had instructions beamed down from Heaven?

[tibilicus]

The debate in this thread reminds me of something Margaret Thatcher said. In fact, it essentially is the debate:

'A single currency is about  the politics of Europe, it is about a federal Europe by the backdoor.'

Agree/ disagree?

[Beskar]

Really? In what sense? In any case, why did you feel the need slander religion, and I think, mine in particular?

You attacked me for being an atheist, and also brought it up in a discussion on another subject, hence my hypocrisy comment where you attacked me for being an atheist, then calling foul when I bought up your views.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You attacked me for being an athiest, and also brought it up in a discussion on another subject.

Not really. I produced a sketch of what I believe is your philosophical position, registered my dislake for said same and indicated why.

"Beskar is what is known as a "Utopian Atheist", freed from the strictures and comforts of religion he seeks to create a perfect society on Earth through the perfection of mankind."

That's the sketch, that I think you have admitted is accurate.

"Worse, because he is the final arbiter of his decisions and believes there is no Higher Power he is his own moral judge, and will do what he believes is necessary to attain this goal. In Beskar's case this is ignoring democratic process and popular will."

This is why I dislike the position, and I brought it all up in response to another poster who was in turn responding to you saying you wanted a conspiracy to stitch us up into a Federal Europe; I have already quoted that part of the sequence back once.

At no point did I say that you were, for example, immoral, or evil, or a Communist tyrant; but you did seperate me from "reason ethics and justice" because I am a religious man.

I didn't attack you in the same way you attacked me.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The debate in this thread reminds me of something Margaret Thatcher said. In fact, it essentially is the debate:

'A single currency is about  the politics of Europe, it is about a federal Europe by the backdoor.'

Agree/ disagree?

Agree, stop the Eurostar, I want to get off!

[Beskar]

"Worse, because he is the final arbiter of his decisions and believes there is no Higher Power he is his own moral judge, and will do what he believes is necessary to attain this goal. In Beskar's case this is ignoring democratic process and popular will."

At no point did I say that you were, for example, immoral, or evil, or a Communist tyrant; but you did seperate me from "reason ethics and justice" because I am a religious man.

Though are correct, but also incorrect at the same time. You never explicitly said I was immoral, you instead heavily implied I am not subject to any moral code, thus I can do whatever I like, probably going as far as being a communist tyrant and putting people in gulags.

[LittleGrizzly]

I'm not going to bother with the argument, "the God that doesn't exist told people to....." That is silly, if He doesn't exist You cannot blame him for peoples' actions.

Of course I can't blame a non existent entity, I can however blame the actions on the belief in a non existent entity.

As to your question, you assume a personal God, what about Plato's First Cause? Or Spinoza's God?

Gah! the bane of the lazy debator... have to look these up...

Ok the first cause is an argument I have heard before, I have some issue with it but im not debating whether God exists or not, unless you are making some other point im missing ? your going to have to explain that second one to me as well, im not getting anything from wiki....

The point I am making is that without an external moral standard it is possible to dispense with "morality", which no longer really exists, whenever it is convenient.

Internal moral standards are the only one that actually exist, if your moral standard is wrapped up in some fictional entity that you can only access through books and people then it can by perverted and twisted by those very people. Obviously your grown up now and set in your moral standards but some young catholic just growing up could have his morality influenced to whatever end those around him wished, and even if he thought to himself somewhere... this isn't right, if his belief in god is strong and all he has been taught about god is by these people then the question is who is he to question an all knowing god ? i don't want to blow up this building abortion clinic, but god does and he knows better than I.

That isn't to say its impossible to indoctrinate an atheist but it is an awesome tool in helping circumvent people's morality

This is what Lenin et al. regularly did. THEY determined what THEY thought was good for the State and THEY enforced it.

They did bad things they thought were for the greater good ?

Them and every other ruler in the history or rulers probably... or do religious people not do things for the greater good ? like not paying for hostages off terrorists, short term its bad, you lose some people just for some money, but long term it is for the greater good as you don't encourage more hostage taking....

In any case, you've already proved me right, because you have appealed to your own concience as some form of external and impartial arbitrator in moral issues; which is exactly the role it has in Christianity.

Ahh right, so your problem is in atheism your conscience is an abritrator in moral issues. Which is exatly the role it has in Christinity ?

You cannot have it both ways, either as a christian you have some form of group conscience which earlier you were stating as an advantage because you can't dispense with it as it isn't yours alone (unless your drop the religion too i guess) or christians make thier own moral judgements with thier own morality as the arbitrator, exactly like atheists, which invalidates your whole rant against beskar earlier (or makes your rant against Beskar apply eqaully to all religious and non religious people)

The fact is your conscience is not the ultimate abritrator of right or wrong, god is, if you can be made to believe god wants you to do something then you can ignore your conscience as you can't possibly now what god does, he is all knowing so what your doing must be for a good cause even if your conscience screams at you, your just a falliable little human being.

What? Did you think we had instructions beamed down from Heaven?

That would probably be better, just lone physco thinking thier doing the work of god would be nowhere near as efficient as these groups of physco's who thanks to thier religion group think mentality can combine to crash planes into building and blow up train stations.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Though are correct, but also incorrect at the same time. You never explicitly said I was immoral, you instead heavily implied I am not subject to any moral code, thus I can do whatever I like, probably going as far as being a communist tyrant and putting people in gulags.

I don't do "imply" except in the most extremely obvious cases, and only then face to face. I was quite explicit that you do not believe yourself subject to any external moral code, which is very different from actually calling you immoral.

The problem I have with your position is that it will only allow for your own actions from your perspective; you can decide something is moral and no one you act upon has a right of moral appeal. This means that, for example, you can decide that because the end of creating universal piece is a worthwile goal it is alright to do it undemocratically.

I object on the grounds that all people are equal and therefore have the right to self determination. I can't ever put that aside for any reason. This is why I said your "Do unto others" statement was weak, because it is dependant on what you are willing to let someone do to you. It does not have the absolute force of "thou shalt not Kill".

I don't actually believe you are immoral, because I believe your concience functions in the same way as mine does, but I do believe your philosophy lacks moral force, and some of your attitude in your posts demonstrate this.

[Furunculus]

Ambrose Evans Pritchard believes it will be the far-left that benefits politically from the the crisis on the continent, what think you?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/7756879/Europes-deflation-torture-is-a-gift-to-the-Far-Left.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Experience tells me we will never have a perfect society, and we don't need one. I am now going to make the point you have provoked.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, and most recently Chavez, have all tried to create socialist all-inclusive paradises on Earth, all have failed and decended into despotism. you might be able to chalk one or two up to selfish dishonesty, but there's still something fishy going on. I submit that a similar motivation drives the EU project; and this can most easily be expressed as a belief that people should accept the "better" destiny their superior ordain for them.

It is a form of intellectual soverignty, which resulted in putting the Lisbon Treaty to Ireland twice.


100% agreed, for exactly the same reason i stated in the global warming thread, to wit:



i admit to a healthy dose of benign contempt towards social-science intellectuals who are always trying to engineer society into what they see as a better model.

because social science is not a science, it is a faith that you can express the breadth of human emotion and frailty with a simplified model of collective behavior.

it is an arrogance that leads to ideology which is invariably a universal failure for the reason mentioned above, and it is usually grossly intrusive to the individuals it is practiced upon.

worse, the damage that is done by these social engineers is blithely disregarded as a necessary and temporary evil, to achieve the glorious emancipation of humanity......... as they see it.

there is a world of difference between a social engineer/scientist and an real engineer or scientist, and I will always have contempt for those that think they can engineer away the less perfect parts of the human condition via some pseudo-scientific ideology.
in the event that they achieve power, that benign contempt becomes fear, exactly the same fear that i feel for any other feral nutcase has the ability to inflict their warped views upon society at large be it religiously inspired or some pathetic ideology driven by a desire to 'improve' the world.

[Husar]

So a desire to improve the world is a bad thing now? Would you rather have people robbing grandmothers instead? After all people like Beskar have no universally set morals anyway.
And why do conservatives/people on the right vote for a certain government if not to improve the world they live in? If the EU is a bad thing, then why are Germany and the USA a good thing? Why don't we split up into 16 or 50 independent small nations because federalism is bad? Why did we form those federal nations in the first place? Wasn't that dictated from above as well? Did they do referendums in the good old times we all wish back?

[Furunculus]

at what point did i recommend a society where grandmothers get robbed?

i didn't, but i'm a big fan of negative freedom; the freedom from interefernce in my life provided I live by the (limited) laws of the land.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So a desire to improve the world is a bad thing now? Would you rather have people robbing grandmothers instead? After all people like Beskar have no universally set morals anyway.
And why do conservatives/people on the right vote for a certain government if not to improve the world they live in? If the EU is a bad thing, then why are Germany and the USA a good thing? Why don't we split up into 16 or 50 independent small nations because federalism is bad? Why did we form those federal nations in the first place? Wasn't that dictated from above as well? Did they do referendums in the good old times we all wish back?

Wanting to improve the world is a fine thing, but it should never involve a temporary evil, or an imposition forced upon others.

[gaelic cowboy]

I am sceptical of this Telegraph article there were no great surges to the left in the last 2yrs even though they all thought they would achieve it with the crisis.

the left was the incumbent and suffered defeat due to economic turmoil and in a few places I am thinking Ireland UK here the right retained power because both our left traditions are not really left economically.

The Euro elections did not return large extreme left parties even though many voters were mad as hell.

His article should read the crisis will cause European oppositions parties to return to power in the next cycle.

[Furunculus]

I am sceptical of this Telegraph article there were no great surges to the left in the last 2yrs even though they all thought they would achieve it with the crisis.

the left was the incumbent and suffered defeat due to economic turmoil and in a few places I am thinking Ireland UK here the right retained power because both our left traditions are not really left economically.

The Euro elections did not return large extreme left parties even though many voters were mad as hell.

His article should read the crisis will cause European oppositions parties to return to power in the next cycle.
that perhaps should be made clearer, given that his own premise follows the logic that whilst the recession has happened the 'pain' has not really hit yet as it will once all the austerity measures really start to bite.

there is also the point that many of the left long ago disassocoiated themselves from new-labour style lefty movements as no longer representaive of traditional politics.

i think there is much in what he says, he was after all predicting the collapse of the euro long before most others, whilst the traditional response was to rubbish his fears.

[gaelic cowboy]

I cannot see it extreme left would tax wealth property etc etc after the big developers who has more property than a comfortable middle class civil servant. They used there supposedly secure pensions and only upward pay rates to secure mortgages and loans for all sorts of consumption house in Spain new car or two three holidays a year etc.

The extreme left will fail as they always do at any election when it boils down to the economy etc.

[Furunculus]

agreed generally, though there are enough countries where socialist and communist parties are an electoral force rather than the joke they are here.

[gaelic cowboy]

Osborne outlines plans for UK spending cuts (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0524/ukeconomy.html)

Uk has got it's own version of An Bord Snip Nua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bord_Snip_Nua) now the fun begins expect to see lots of media rubbish from now on.

[Furunculus]

German media reports on two secret cancellation clauses in the £750bn bailout:
1. immediately cancelled if declared unconstitutional by EU court or any national constitutional court, and germany has two cases going on right now.
2. any member that cannot borrow at less than 5% interest rates has the option to not partatke in the bailout.

My prediction:
Finance markets are going to look at this indecision between greater economic union (which the electorates won't accept) and the exit of club-med from the eurozone (which the politicians won't accept), and they are going to HAMMER the Euro.

Within six months Greece Spain and Portugal will all have had sovereign debt crisises, three or four Eurozone nations won't take part in the bailout and at least two club-med nations will be forced to exit and restructure their debt, which means that they will finally have a chance to become competitive again but French and German banks will take a big-hit as they are forced to accept debt-for-equity due to an inability to bail-out yet more banks.

Within twelve months the political element of the Euro will begine to coalesce around the northern continental countries as they bring about economic union to revive the fortunes of the Euro, but a two-speed EU will be born, because not everyone will be inside that club.

[Vladimir]

A bad sign: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37354919/ns/world_news-europe/?gt1=43001

[Furunculus]

Wow, that is from a year ago.

Though your reply to the post was a conceptual misunderstanding.


Let's break down this post into other words:

- People are not taught the key skills they need in order to understand or comprehend information.
- This has a "Fox News"/"Daily Mail" culture of speakers preaching to illiterate masses or don't actually know what is good or bad for themselves.
- My post encourages education, in under to equip the populace with these means, for an informed and education population to make decisions in politics.


Seriously, who would disagree with that statement? How isn't an engaged, informed and educated populace a bad thing for the politics and democracy? (unless you want them only as sheeplike)

i counted at least six people who badly 'misinterpreted' the statement, so perhaps some clarification is overdue. :)

[Beskar]

i counted at least six people who badly 'misinterpreted' the statement, so perhaps some clarification is overdue. :)

Mainly resulted from the first misunderstanding. :tongue: It was pretty clear what I meant.

[Jolt]

Within six months Greece Spain and Portugal will all have had sovereign debt crisises

So you're saying the country with the highest deficit fall in the EU is still going to have a sovereign debt crisis? Despite the fact it is 6 months time from reaching half of the deficit that it had some 4 months ago?

Sources?

[Furunculus]

So you're saying the country with the highest deficit fall in the EU is still going to have a sovereign debt crisis? Despite the fact it is 6 months time from reaching half of the deficit that it had some 4 months ago?

Sources?

Portugal's interest rates on government borrowing are rising sharply:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-54629-2.html

and they have a lot of debt to roll-over in 2010 and 2011 in addition to the new borrowing required for deficit spending:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-54629-7.html

[gaelic cowboy]

Spain's parliament passes €15bn austerity package (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0527/spain.html)

[gaelic cowboy]

Seing as things are a bit heavy in this thread how about some Riot Dog funnies (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/riot-dog)

This is my personal favorite (http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/49047)

He even turned up on the front cover of the european economist (http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayCover.cfm?url=/images/20100508/20100508issuecovEU400.jpg)

[Furunculus]

is europe really headed towards meltdown?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/edmundconway/7770265/Is-Europe-heading-for-a-meltdown.html

[Beskar]

I think it is all hype by the elite, just to screw over the poor people.

End of the day, the governments would just get their acts together and deal with it. There doesn't have to be so much "hoo haa" about it all.

[rory_20_uk]

So far at least 3 have died due to the hoo haa. Oddly enough, people with no grasp of Economics do not understand why they have to suffer merely as the country has vastly overspent. The best way to show this is to destroy private and public property and fight with the police...

~:smoking:

[Beskar]

So far at least 3 have died due to the hoo haa. Oddly enough, people with no grasp of Economics do not understand why they have to suffer merely as the country has vastly overspent. The best way to show this is to destroy private and public property and fight with the police...

Indeed, they are idiots.

We British have a simplier solution.
https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3517/keepcalmandcarryon.png

[Vladimir]

You lack passion!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You lack passion!

No they don't. It's just that by act of parliament emotion has been restricted to the Queen's Birthday, Guy Fawkes Day, and Soccor (football) matches. Anything else just wouldn't be cricket.

[gaelic cowboy]

Oh Brits have passion alright you just need to go to the right places to see it. I will never forget the sight of the happiest racist I ever saw at the Germany v Ireland match in Japan. Robbie put one in the back of the net to draw the game and he nearly flew down on to the pitch from the second level to kiss the man.

[Vladimir]

Sorry. I'm channeling my inner Latino. Beskar's post just made too much sense.

The Latin/Mediterranean machismo lifestyle is good for spring break but not too handy in a crisis. The main reason why the old world will never surpass the new is because it carries this type of baggage around. It's a shame they don't see that.

[Furunculus]

Indeed, they are idiots.

We British have a simplier solution.
https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3517/keepcalmandcarryon.png

agreed with the bald statement, regardless of whether there was irony intended.

you cannot spend what you don't have and expect to get away with it.

[Jolt]

Portugal's interest rates on government borrowing are rising sharply:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-54629-2.html

What I'm seeing from the graphic is the interest rate in freefall after the Greek collapse and the speculation attacks on Portugal. Much less rising in any shape or form.


and they have a lot of debt to roll-over in 2010 and 2011 in addition to the new borrowing required for deficit spending:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-54629-7.html

I'll be damned if Portugal can't cover 18.000 million from debt these two years with the current measures applied. It will be payed, and I bet without a difficulty.

[Furunculus]

i am pleased for you that you are so optimistic, but i don't believe such optimism bears much relation to reality.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article7140173.ece
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,697098,00.html
http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2551675.ece/Every_EU_member_must_draft_a_living_will

[Jolt]

i am pleased for you that you are so optimistic, but i don't believe such optimism bears much relation to reality.

Optimistic? Anything I said so far hasn't been disputed anywhere. It isn't much of an optimistic viewpoint, but rather a down-to-earth viewpoint. Of all the articles you are putting up, they only talk about the general european economic climate, and amongst those, not one word is used to depict Portuguese measures as lacking in any extent, or doubting the ability of our economy to cut off the debt. It is widely agreed that Portugal is simply taking the necessary steps to resettle the finances. That is the reality we are dealing with.

[InsaneApache]

Bruce Anderson, surprisingly, talks sense....

The euro is in a mess. Even some of its stoutest defenders now agree that its survival is threatened. But the problem is being misdiagnosed. Although the catalyst was Greece and southern Europe, the underlying cause lies to the north, in Germany. The euro is the latest crisis in modern German history and the German political elite's search for a stable identity.


This is something that it is hard for the English to grasp, which is paradoxical. The English live in the midst of their history. Ancient historical forms are still preserved in their modern constitution. Yet they often seem unaware of the extent to which history can scar, condition and confuse other nations. Germany was certainly scarred. By 1945, two-fifths of the males who had been born between 1915 and 1925 were dead or missing. Germany's cities were in ruins. Millions of Germans who had been ethnically cleansed from Poland and Czechoslovakia were about to limp home to a shattered country, in which millions more were already on the verge of starvation. But it was not just the physical destruction. The nation of Bach and Mozart and Beethoven had descended into bestiality. In 1945, economic recovery must have seemed inconceivable; moral recovery, impossible. Many sensitive Germans thought that they and their descendants had forever forfeited their right to hold their heads high among the nations.
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In the post-war years, those thoughtful Germans were able to make common cause with other Europeans who were determined to ensure that there would never be another European civil war. The continent had barely survived two: a third would finish it off. So the European movement recruited the idealism of some of the ablest politicians of the post-war vintage.

There was only one problem: historical change. Terror and death had imposed a brutal discipline on the peoples of Europe. North of the Balkans at any rate, Europeans realised that the age of boundary disputes and irredentist conflicts was over. It was replaced by an era of economic co-operation. Europe started again where it had left off in 1914: interdependence, a steady growth in trade, increasingly open markets. As a result, a broken continent recovered. The end of the Cold War, the disintegration of the Soviet Union and the recovery of the states which had been left behind appeared to conclude that process. The age of the abyss was over.

But abyss politics retained its momentum, in the attempt to build a united Europe. Denied the pleasures of German patriotism, the German political class became European patriots. Then there were the French. They were defeated in 1870 and 1940. They almost bled to death in 1914-18. Dien Bien Phu, Algeria: the end of French imperialism was much more scarring than its British equivalent. Dean Acheson said that the British had lost an Empire but not yet found a role. Nobody said that about the French, because it never occurred to anyone that France could have a role. The post-war British were surprisingly relaxed about their relative decline (though it helped to create Scottish nationalism). The French were determined to reassert themselves, and Europe seemed the way. Both France and Germany had humiliations to exorcise; for both of them, Europe seemed to be a form of historical psychotherapy. The Germans would be good Europeans. The French would organise Europe, so that it could be run by a French jockey on a German horse.

The climax of this was the single currency, which is a good argument against allowing psychologists to have any role in running currencies. The euro could easily have worked, on one condition: that the euro-zone became a country. Otherwise, it was always doomed. There is a simple explanation for this. In all countries, rich regions and rich people subsidise poorer regions and poorer people. This enables the latter to use the same currency as their prosperous neighbours. Without fiscal transfers, the poorer areas would not be able to earn enough. So the logic of the euro was that the rich countries would transfer funds to the poorer ones.

There followed deceit and delusion. No one told the electorates of the rich countries that they would have pay up for the rest, because even in war-guilty Germany, every sane politician knew what the answer would be. Instead, German politicians deceived themselves. They decided that the poorer countries would not need subsidies, because they would start to behave like Germans. They would learn about high productivity rates and high savings ratios. The acme of this self- deceit came over Greek membership of the euro. Berlin is now indignant, which it has no right to be. Germans who trusted the Greek government's figures were not only naïve. They were certifiable. Any sensible person would have expected the Greeks to turn up with a Trojan horse full of monopoly money. Those who chose to believe Ulysses's descendants have only themselves to blame.

But the Germans thought that they had placed limits on their naïveté, and on others' misbehaviour. French jockey or no, the Germans did ensure that the European Central Bank (ECB) would merely be a multilingual Bundesbank, profoundly averse to inflation. Although it was bank-krieg not blitzkrieg, the euro would enable the Germans to control the eurozone.

This demonstrates the limits of German psychological insight. The southern Europeans did not want to work like Germans or save like Germans. They only wanted a German credit rating, so that they could spend like lottery winners. They have, without first taking the precaution of buying a winning ticket. Now, it is not clear how they can stay in the euro and still grow their way out of their deficits. For us Brits, this is not as funny as it sounds. We need them to grow so that they will be able to buy our goods, to help us deal with our deficit. As sterling will surely strengthen against the euro, our exporters' problems will be compounded.

To add to the European policy-makers' anxieties, there is another psychological problem. The German patient has recovered from war-guilt and is no longer crippled by an identity crisis. Most Germans of working age think that it is not them but the squandering southerners who ought to be regarded as pariahs. Though the EU is part of their political identity, the Germans are not prepared to sacrifice their prosperity to others' profligacy.

So it is hard to see how the euro can survive.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-anderson-the-euro-is-entering-its-final-phase-1987528.html

These strange times are about to get stranger.....

[Furunculus]

Optimistic? Anything I said so far hasn't been disputed anywhere. It isn't much of an optimistic viewpoint, but rather a down-to-earth viewpoint. Of all the articles you are putting up, they only talk about the general european economic climate, and amongst those, not one word is used to depict Portuguese measures as lacking in any extent, or doubting the ability of our economy to cut off the debt. It is widely agreed that Portugal is simply taking the necessary steps to resettle the finances. That is the reality we are dealing with.

it is optimism, because you appear to believe that portugal is the master of its own destiny.

it isn't, it is a very small cog in a very big machine, a machine that is fraught with inconsistencies that utterly prevent it from working efficiently as IA's article above should make crystal clear.

of course Portugal is cutting spending, it is the only option as club-med cannot live beyond its credit-rating in perpetuity, but can fiscal contraction happen at the same time as the rapid growth needed to pay of long term structural debt (as opposed to short term deficit spending)? the answer is probably not, especially when all your major trading neighbours are also contracting fiscal policy in a way the will depress growth continent wide.

i ask you this; the value of trade in goods and services is split 52/48 percent between Britain and the EU/RestOfWorld, and we will be hammered if the Euro collapses from sovereign defaults, how much trade does portugal do with the EU as a percentage of the total?

How much do Spain and Italy Greece and Ireland do?

For that matter, how much do even France and Germany do?

You are not the masters of your own destiny, you signed what small influence you did have away when you joined the collective.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Excellent article, IA.
Optimistic? Anything I said so far hasn't been disputed anywhere. It isn't much of an optimistic viewpoint, but rather a down-to-earth viewpoint. Of all the articles you are putting up, they only talk about the general european economic climate, and amongst those, not one word is used to depict Portuguese measures as lacking in any extent, or doubting the ability of our economy to cut off the debt. It is widely agreed that Portugal is simply taking the necessary steps to resettle the finances. That is the reality we are dealing with.Portugal's foreign debt is half that of the UK, Portugal's public debt is not larger than Germany's, Portugal's deficit is much lower than that of the UK, and Portugal's economic growth this year is amongst the highest in the EU.

However, as one of the PIGS, you obviously live beyond your means. Or, the financial markets work on perception, herd mentality, and predator packs. Portugal is the easy target.

[Jolt]

it is optimism, because you appear to believe that portugal is the master of its own destiny.

Ah. You seem to have misunderstood me. I was not refering Portugal in comparison to other countries. I merely said that, due to the results Portugal is achieving, it shall not be because of it that the Euro will fall. As to other countries, that is a different story.


Excellent article, IA.Portugal's foreign debt is half that of the UK, Portugal's public debt is not larger than Germany's, Portugal's deficit is much lower than that of the UK, and Portugal's economic growth this year is amongst the highest in the EU.

However, as one of the PIGS, you obviously live beyond your means. Or, the financial markets work on perception, herd mentality, and predator packs. Portugal is the easy target.

My thoughts exactly. This is a ridiculous system, and must be altered.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Excellent article, IA.Portugal's foreign debt is half that of the UK, Portugal's public debt is not larger than Germany's, Portugal's deficit is much lower than that of the UK, and Portugal's economic growth this year is amongst the highest in the EU.

However, as one of the PIGS, you obviously live beyond your means. Or, the financial markets work on perception, herd mentality, and predator packs. Portugal is the easy target.

What is the size of Portugal's economy vs the UK or Germany though? Bigger countries can sustain higher levels of dept? What is Portugal's "function" in the EU? Lets not forget, the EU launders (sorry, trades) all it's money through London, and most people still buy fridges and cars from Germany.

[Ronin]

What is Portugal's "function" in the EU?

we produce over-exposed football players and anoying douchebag football coaches.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

we produce over-exposed football players and anoying douchebag football coaches.

I was genuinely hoping for a positive answer like, I don't know "oranges". After all Norway produces the Cod, Denmark the Lard, France the unreasonably expensive wine....

[gaelic cowboy]

the Cork for the bottle I expect

[Louis VI the Fat]

the Cork for the bottle I expectThey do indeed!

That, and sunshine and hot babes. Which they surprisingly mix with melancholy in all sorts and shapes.

[Jolt]

I was genuinely hoping for a positive answer like, I don't know "oranges". After all Norway produces the Cod, Denmark the Lard, France the unreasonably expensive wine....

http://rctx.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/magalhaessi.jpg

[gaelic cowboy]

Meanwhile in Ireland well make the highly expensive processors in Kildare for ye.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Portugal exports pics of children? Kiddie porn?

[gaelic cowboy]

Portugal exports pics of children? Kiddie porn?

Lol Louis Louis you never fail to get a laugh from me

[Jolt]

Portugal exports pics of children? Kiddie porn?

Something worse. We export the name of a Portuguese born mercenary/traitor who sold himself to the Spanish crown (Against the Manueline Ordenances), to sail around America and reach the Mollucas, on the name of our home-produced laptops.Magalhães/Magellan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan)

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port%C3%A1til_Magalh%C3%A3es

[Louis VI the Fat]

Something worse. We export the name of a Portuguese born mercenary/traitor who sold himself to the Spanish crown (Against the Manueline Ordenances), to sail around America and reach the Mollucas, on the name of our home-produced laptops.Magalhães/Magellan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan)

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port%C3%A1til_Magalh%C3%A3esAnd it's such a runaway international succes that Wikipedia can suffice with describing the thing only in Portuguese! :tongue:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Meanwhile in Ireland well make the highly expensive processors in Kildare for ye.

No, you make butter and Stout!

[Jolt]

And it's such a runaway international succes that Wikipedia can suffice with describing the thing only in Portuguese! :tongue:

It started like, one year ago. In one year, with an economy the size of our own, you can't expect to have Magalhães's from Mexico to Japan. Then there is the computer's own Economy of Scale.

[Furunculus]

Germans suspect French Banks of using the ECB to ditch Greek debt, and thus clear up their balance sheets, whilst German banks do the noble thing and agree to hold onto Greek debt until 2013.

the EU transfer union is now in full swing:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,697680,00.html

[Vladimir]

Can anyone place this in context? Say, international banking within the last 50 years?

Value is based on perception. I'm beginning to perceive financial institutions as fiction authors.

[gaelic cowboy]

Can anyone place this in context? Say, international banking within the last 50 years?

Value is based on perception. I'm beginning to perceive financial institutions as fiction authors.

There would be an element of truth to this as these institutions make money from transactions and not saving "Churn Churn is there battlecry"

[Vladimir]

There would be an element of truth to this as these institutions make money from transactions and not saving "Churn Churn is there battlecry"

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.

It seems to me that they're making it up as they go.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Something worse. We export the name of a Portuguese born mercenary/traitor who sold himself to the Spanish crown (Against the Manueline Ordenances), to sail around America and reach the Mollucas, on the name of our home-produced laptops.Magalhães/Magellan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan)

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port%C3%A1til_Magalh%C3%A3es

The Tagali stamped paid on his account. But he grabbed the credit for a circumnavigation anyway!