Roman tactics against Barbarians.

[pikeman]

I'm sorry if there's already tons of threads about this. But I started a new Romani Campaign, and would like to vanquish the world of Barbarians (Maybe not the greeks, they're too smart for themselves- better off as slaves).

I tried using the checkerboard formation, but I find that other than historical accuracy it gives me no real edge on the battlefield. In fact, my hastati tends to take alot of casualties because they're locally surrounded.

Anyone got ideas to help me? Every barbarian blood is worth less than 1 drop of Roman blood. ROMA VICTRIX!!!:laugh4:

[Cute Wolf]

made sure you turn the pilum to fire at will, as this thing will punish most of that half nudist barbarians heavily, and made sure your princepes bahind your hastati line doing this as well... after that, you'll face half depleted units of barbarians, and your hastati will have much easier job than become mere meatshelds for princepes.

and if you use cammilan hastati, they are basically worthless crap coming in small numbers, wait for polybian to get real hastati (with real fighting skills)

[gamegeek2]

Whenever I take Italy in campaigns, I make heavy use of Roman troops in my local armies. They are effective for two main reasons:

1. Swords: While no longsword, their weapon is highly effective against other infantry.
2. Shields: They've got a nice, big shield and good armour stat for their low cost. This makes them well suited for exchanging javelins, which happens a lot between infantry in the European theater in EB.

I find that pila have to be used like other javelins to be effective: against unprepared enemies, from the flanks and rear. From the front they can be effective against less armored troops, but not as much as you would think.

Generally, I have my Hastati engage my enemies from the front, discharging all pila (if possible) before wading into melee. Swords are better against infantry than spears, and I'd rather send the swordsmen in first. In my Epeirote-Italic armies, I'd have the Thureophoroi deployed on the flanks to perform flanking tasks (Principes will work for Romans) as their spears aren't ideal for engaging enemy infantry when compared with the gladius, and I'd rather minimize their melee exposure. Also, this keeps the Principes available to fend off enemy cavalry.

Another good strategy is to have your Hastati and similar troops form a shieldwall (BI only) and let the enemy rush on - the shieldwall lets the unit hold its ground well (especially with guard mode on). Then, send your designated flankers (principes, thureophoroi) around to smash the enemy from the flanks.

Heavy/elite units, such as Triarii, I tend to prefer in reserve (like the romans did) as this way they can be deployed to turn the tide of battle when needed, but not sacrificed against large numbers of
enemies. The shieldwall tactic is also effective with the elites/heavies doing the shieldwall, as they will hold it very well even if the enemy flanks around it.

[Badass Buddha]

...vanquish the world of Barbarians (Maybe not the greeks, they're too smart for themselves- better off as slaves).


Every barbarian blood is worth less than 1 drop of Roman blood. ROMA VICTRIX!!!

I'd be very careful about making statements like that on this forum, even jokingly. You'll be butchered alive.

[pikeman]

But life before romans were savage, decadent and/or uncivilized, we have to thank the Romans for all the technological and cultural legacies they've left us. (I know english is germanic, but it has been civilized with a lot of latin-root words. Heck, even German needs latin alphabet to be useable.)

:) It's nice to play in my own hands the rise of the greatest civilization on earth.

Then again, thanks gamegeek for the advice! I just hit Polybian reforms and the hastati turned out to be much better than before!

Is it me, or do they literally wield better weapons now? I find them alot better when it comes to holding a charge from those gaulish rabble. They take horrible casualties when charged by cavalry though, I can't imagine what will happen if I start civilizing the east.....(I can't recruit leves/roraii to take cavalry charges now!! and the principes also use hastati swords)

[XSamatan]

You should definitely play one of those 'uncivilized' factions and/or read about their history. EB focuses on depicting all factions as they were in reality, not how they were in school books.
And yes, you should stop flaming against other cultures, this is not welcome on this board and its users. And don't flame back on him.

XSamatan

[pikeman]

Actually, because of how wonderful EB i found, I bought the box-set of HBO Rome and the Blu-Ray set of Gladiator :)

p.s. I am aware of the Lorica Segmentata being inaccurate bits. :)

UPDATE: I solved the cavalry killing romans problem by placing LOTS of Triarii in front as the line holders. =)

[Andronikos]

I'd be very careful about making statements like that on this forum, even jokingly. You'll be butchered alive.

Actually, we Romaioktonoi study Roman military to find new ways to defeat them and thus we also know how Romans can defeat those whom they call barbarians and we can help a Roman general when he asks. (actually, I play as Romans sometimes)

I agree with CW, turn auto-fire on, it works wonders on charging units to get a bunch of javelins straight into face, it can cause massive rout, especially against Celts, but perhaps against Germans you will have to come with something else as their units have higher morale.

And to the other topic, Romans were uncivilised and savage in the begining, but they built their civilisation on advanced technology of Etruscans and Hellenes and of course when they had something to start with, they added their own new improvements and inventions. I would compare them to Aztecs, who took up Mayan and Olmecan technology. Someone with more knowledge in history could comment this and confirm or correct me, please.

[HunGeneral]

Every barbarian blood is worth less than 1 drop of Roman blood.
I would beg to difer here, but you will see with time after playing lots of EB.


ROMA VICTRIX!!!:laugh4:
Well your into the roleplaying thats for sure.



But life before romans were savage, decadent and/or uncivilized, we have to thank the Romans for all the technological and cultural legacies they've left us.
I suspect you have read or learned quite little history. We don't own everything to the romans.


Is it me, or do they literally wield better weapons now?
Yes, they copied thoose of the peoples you call "barbarians"...


I am aware of the Lorica Segmentata being inaccurate bits. :)
Now thats good news - EB is alrady starting to enlighten you.



UPDATE: I solved the cavalry killing romans problem by placing LOTS of Triarii in front as the line holders. =)
This reminds me of one the tactics for Romans: outnumber the enemy with masses of troops (they historically did that quite often).


Anyone got ideas to help me?
I think the others have already given you more advice then I could, so good luck with yourcampaign and please try so ofter faction then the romans...

[Jebivjetar]

I haven't played with Romans for a very long time, but there's a couple of things that makes Romans very hard to beat. I had some hard time fighting against AI and human players in online battles. You'll see the main strenght of Romans if you follow this advices:

- Fight only with fullstacks, always outnumber your enemy and you will be able to kill them very easily.
- Spawn massive triari/pedites extraordinari armies, and show the rest of the world who's the boss.
-No matter how small and weak the enemy army may be, always attack with your fullstacks composed of your hard-core infantry. Attack enemy levies with pedites and triari only, and show your true strenght as a Roman general, and always yell "Roma vitrix!"
- Roman units are cheap, so use that advantage and build a lot of unbeatable armies. As a Roman, you have the privilege to build very cheap main army, to protect your homeland. A massive cheap army composed of elites, together with your faction leader would be optional.
-No matter what you conquer, always enslave everything: spoil whatever you can, and bring barbarian treasury to Rome: by doing that, Rome will glitter in its full brightness as a true center of the known world.

[Cute Wolf]

I haven't played with Romans for a very long time, but there's a couple of things that makes Romans very hard to beat. I had some hard time fighting against AI and human players in online battles. You'll see the main strenght of Romans if you follow this advices:

- Fight only with fullstacks, always outnumber your enemy and you will be able to kill them very easily.
- Spawn massive triari/pedites extraordinari armies, and show the rest of the world who's the boss.
-No matter how small and weak the enemy army may be, always attack with your fullstacks composed of your hard-core infantry. Attack enemy levies with pedites and triari only, and show your true strenght as a Roman general, and always yell "Roma vitrix!"
- Roman units are cheap, so use that advantage and build a lot of unbeatable armies. As a Roman, you have the privilege to build very cheap main army, to protect your homeland. A massive cheap army composed of elites, together with your faction leader would be optional.
-No matter what you conquer, always enslave everything: spoil whatever you can, and bring barbarian treasury to Rome: by doing that, Rome will glitter in its full brightness as a true center of the known world.

that's why in my opinion, Triarii should be downed into 60 men per unit, but raise hastati and princepes to 120 men (and raise their price a bit)... at least, historically, triarii maniples should be half of other's maniple

[Jebivjetar]

that's why in my opinion, Triarii should be downed into 60 men per unit, but raise hastati and princepes to 120 men (and raise their price a bit)... at least, historically, triarii maniples should be half of other's maniple

Good. That way one could beat any army just by letting his 120-men-per-unit-fullstacks throwing their javelins. :)

[Cute Wolf]

Good. That way one could beat any army just by letting his 120-men-per-unit-fullstacks throwing their javelins. :)

maybe we should tone down the Hastati strength?

[Jebivjetar]

maybe we should tone down the Hastati strength?

Pikeman wouldn't like that :clown:

[Cute Wolf]

Pikeman wouldn't like that :clown:

but historically, Hastati are supposed to wear down the enemy, and then, let the Princepes mop up the rest, they are supposed to only HOLD, and tire up enemy, while princepes deal the Real damage. Giving them less attack, but more defensive skillz will do the trick well enough.

[GenosseGeneral]

I haven't played with Romans for a very long time, but there's a couple of things that makes Romans very hard to beat. I had some hard time fighting against AI and human players in online battles. You'll see the main strenght of Romans if you follow this advices:

- Fight only with fullstacks, always outnumber your enemy and you will be able to kill them very easily.
- Spawn massive triari/pedites extraordinari armies, and show the rest of the world who's the boss.
-No matter how small and weak the enemy army may be, always attack with your fullstacks composed of your hard-core infantry. Attack enemy levies with pedites and triari only, and show your true strenght as a Roman general, and always yell "Roma vitrix!"
- Roman units are cheap, so use that advantage and build a lot of unbeatable armies. As a Roman, you have the privilege to build very cheap main army, to protect your homeland. A massive cheap army composed of elites, together with your faction leader would be optional.
-No matter what you conquer, always enslave everything: spoil whatever you can, and bring barbarian treasury to Rome: by doing that, Rome will glitter in its full brightness as a true center of the known world.

irony, right?

[antisocialmunky]

Quick Guide To be Good With Romans
-Bring Archers
-Make Line
-Hit Guard Mode
-Wait
-Shoot enemy horses with arrows

[Cute Wolf]

Quick Guide To be Good With Romans
-Bring Archers
-Make Line
-Hit Guard Mode
-Wait
-Shoot enemy horses with arrows

what archers? Imperial archers? wait for that long and ridiculous reform :grin: Toxotai? Sotaroas? that was crappy...
Better stick with Sphendenotai (slingers), or Iasotae.... and try to hire Kretans everytime you spot em, they are very worth bang for your bucks

[Fluvius Camillus]

[..]
- Spawn massive triari/pedites extraordinari armies, and show the rest of the world who's the boss.
[..]

That's an autowin. I've seen the strength of those two units from two sides of the battlefield! Pedites butcher through anything with AP kopis and especially early triarii refuse to die!

I like where this thread is going, a lot of good tactical and strategic advice!

This thread shows links of tactical advice for Romans and also many more factions and unit types, use them to your victory!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?127079-List-of-Tactical-Advice

If this good advice keeps up, it might even join the ranks of tactical guides! Mayb I'll post something detailed later today!

Good luck with further campaigning!

~Fluvius

[Cute Wolf]

That's an autowin. I've seen the strength of those two units from two sides of the battlefield! Pedites butcher through anything with AP kopis and especially early triarii refuse to die!

I like where this thread is going, a lot of good tactical and strategic advice!

This thread shows links of tactical advice for Romans and also many more factions and unit types, use them to your victory!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?127079-List-of-Tactical-Advice

If this good advice keeps up, it might even join the ranks of tactical guides! Mayb I'll post something detailed later today!

Good luck with further campaigning!

~Fluvius

I know what you meant fluvius... but newbie players, especially one who just tasted EB and play Romans after playing something else and fail, will definitely go for Triarii/PedEx spam, because they are the only realible camillan units... and they are quite cheap, compared to their stats...

[Paltmull]

Here's a nice guide on historical Roman army composition, expansion etc.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?101787-Quintus-Sertorius-Guide-to-Conduct-Becoming-of-a-True-Roman-%28Redux-for-EB%29

[Skullheadhq]

Seriously, pikeman, have you even read the EB terms of agreement? You think Gladiator is historically accurate, praise semi-historical documentaries. Anyway, you should check out the bibliography and get some books from your local library. Reading can't hurt, now can it?

[Paltmull]

This can't end well...

[Cute Wolf]

Guys, don't be so hard with Pikemen, he's a newbie here, and maybe don't yet play EB as deep as most of you are. It was a common mistake that everyone think that semi-historical, or even pseudo historical movies made by Hollywood was a "real historical" thingies. Just let him enjoy more hours with EB, and he'll understand about history by himself. Bashing newbie opinions aren't a good things....

@Pikemen : don't be affraid, it's just some historical nuts running arround here.... just enjoy your EB and you'll find out that things by yourself ~:wave:

[Fluvius Camillus]

Guys, don't be so hard with Pikemen, he's a newbie here, and maybe don't yet play EB as deep as most of you are. It was a common mistake that everyone think that semi-historical, or even pseudo historical movies made by Hollywood was a "real historical" thingies. Just let him enjoy more hours with EB, and he'll understand about history by himself. Bashing newbie opinions aren't a good things....

@Pikemen : don't be affraid, it's just some historical nuts running arround here.... just enjoy your EB and you'll find out that things by yourself ~:wave:

My thoughts exactly!

(and I'm still empty handed when it comes to tactical advice:embarassed:)

~Fluvius

[Zradha Pahlavan]

Watch out for those Gallic naked guys (the ones with swords), they can send most line non-elite infantry fleeing in terror quite quickly. And those javelin-throwing medium cavalry you get in Capua or wherever are good for killing off a few of those shirtless Gauls while they try to make it to your battle line.

[athanaric]

I'm sorry if there's already tons of threads about this. But I started a new Romani Campaign, and would like to vanquish the world of Barbarians (Maybe not the greeks, they're too smart for themselves- better off as slaves).

There's only one tactic you need: mnai.
My favourite strategy against the Swêboz is to buy them. Their infantry makes a good addition to Roman forces.

[WinsingtonIII]

if I start civilizing the east.....(I can't recruit leves/roraii to take cavalry charges now!! and the principes also use hastati swords)

You are aware that Mesopotomia, aka "the east" is often known as the birthplace of civilization, not Italy? I think they'd be interested to known that you're graciously bringing civilization to them.

That's beside the point though. For dealing with cavalry you're probably going to need to recruit local/regional spearmen. Triarii are expensive and once you get far away from home it will take a while to replenish them. In the celtic regions you can recruit Gaeroas, which aren't great, but they aren't terrible either. In Iberia you can recruit Iberi Milites, which are mediocre light spear units with javelins. In the Greek parts of the world (which do extend into the East to some extent) you can recruit Theurophoroi, which are all-around pretty good medium spearmen, and Hoplitai, which are heavier, slower, and lack javelins, but they are also sturdier and have better morale. You can also hire mercenary Pezhetaroi (the Macedonian style pikemen) in many parts of the world. Further east, the pickings for good spears are pretty slim though. Mostly you just get levy type spear troops.

Of course, by that point you may be in the Imperial stage and be able to recruit the Auxillia spear units, both of which (the Western and Eastern) are pretty decent.

This thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?93896-Europa-Romanorum-Roman-unit-guide&highlight=roman+unit+guide) is also quite useful, as it will tell you any and all units that you can recruit in a given area as the Romans and probably show you a few that I missed.

[athanaric]

You are aware that Mesopotomia, aka "the east" is often known as the birthplace of civilization, not Italy? I think they'd be interested to known that you're graciously bringing civilization to them.
Perhaps he wa ironical. I often use this word in a cynical, sarcastic way, such as "I'm gonna civilize faction X now". Meaning I'll pillage and enslave their cities, destroy their temples, and install my own culture there.



In the celtic regions you can recruit Gaeroas, which aren't great, but they aren't terrible either.
Gaeroas make nice auxiliary skirmishers. Plus they look cool.
In Germania, there are also Dugundiz, who are stronger than Gaeroas. Also, the Alps offer excellent and versatile spear units. And let's not forget Batacorii, available both as mercs and regional units.



In the Greek parts of the world (which do extend into the East to some extent) you can recruit Theurophoroi, which are all-around pretty good medium spearmen,
You can't. They're mercenary only for the Romans.



and Hoplitai, which are heavier, slower, and lack javelins, but they are also sturdier and have better morale.
A wise choice for Romani :yes: Even available in (parts of) Italy.



Further east, the pickings for good spears are pretty slim though. Mostly you just get levy type spear troops.
Parthian spearmen are quite decent. At least against missile troops and cavalry.



Imperialist hint of the week:
The SPQR can't recruit Rhodian Slingers, but they can bribe them.

[WinsingtonIII]

You can't. They're mercenary only for the Romans.

My bad, for some reason I thought they were recruitable.

[Fluvius Camillus]

@Athanaric
That last bit is new to me! Thanks for the info!

Now if the AI were smart enough to recruit them.....

~Fluvius

[Cute Wolf]

@Athanaric
That last bit is new to me! Thanks for the info!

Now if the AI were smart enough to recruit them.....

~Fluvius

Mistophoroi Thureophoroi are quite common, had huge spawning rate, and you can recruit 3 or 4 of them at a time in most hellenic provinces... but once you got galatian provinces and start pumping out Kuraothoroi... they will be just emergency soldiers.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Mistophoroi Thureophoroi are quite common, had huge spawning rate, and you can recruit 3 or 4 of them at a time in most hellenic provinces... but once you got galatian provinces and start pumping out Kuraothoroi... they will be just emergency soldiers.

I was referring to the Imperialist hint of the week, SPQR can't recruit Spendonethai Rhodioi but they can BRIBE them!~D

~Fluvius

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

But life before romans were savage, decadent and/or uncivilized, we have to thank the Romans for all the technological and cultural legacies they've left us. (I know english is germanic, but it has been civilized with a lot of latin-root words. Heck, even German needs latin alphabet to be useable.)

:) It's nice to play in my own hands the rise of the greatest civilization on earth.
Yo homie, come over to my place one day and we're gonna talk a bit...

[athanaric]

I was referring to the Imperialist hint of the week, SPQR can't recruit Spendonethai Rhodioi but they can BRIBE them!~D

~Fluvius
Here is proof from my current campaign:
https://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5074/fremdenlegion.jpg (https://img225.imageshack.us/i/fremdenlegion.jpg/)
This is but a part of my Foreign Legion, which I'm assembling for prestige purposes. I like to do so in every campaign. Right now, I have a stack of Skythians and Slavs (bribed around Moscow) heading for Sicily, with the purpose of aiding my main field General Bergawulfáz in the upcoming assimilation of Carthage.

[teoman10]

I cannot really see how the thing with the hastati in front, principes back and triarii back there (with auxilaries here and there) isn`t applied very much here. Personally i find it working perfectly in my SPQR campaign since I can have descent heavy infantry in the front line. If they don`t do the trick I will have stronger units to replace them and i can do this two times. Even though the Hastati suffers some losses, the enemy will be nearly euxsausted when i replace them with the even better soldiers in the rear line. It will usually slaughter any "barbarian" enemy (at least when not in a forest).
When talking about the pilum i usually place the principes so close to the Hastati so that they can throw their pilums over them before the enemy reaches my lines. Really devestating.

[J.R.M]

First: Pikeman, welcome to the Forum, hope u have a great time playing EB, btw just try playing some Barbarian factions and maybe u will discover how barbaric and savage the non romans were. Or maybe u were just trying to provoke someone? i can imagine what Satalexton would have responded.
Or were u using sarcasm maybe?

Second: I remember the Hastati - Principes - Triari line and some skirmishers and allied infantry at both sides worked perfectly against almost everything.

[jirisys]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4602255047_9f616e4a21_o.jpg

Never lost a battle with it (almost, with epeiros, i was depleted and they had a fullstack and reinforcing armies) army is facing towards the bottom

~Jirisys (VAE VICTRIX!:ave:)

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

Woe to the victors?:clown:

[pikeman]

@ Jirisys (I just read your sig)

The problem I found was that my line can never be as wide as say... the Greeks'. Unless it's unarmoured rabble that charges towards me, the Pilum is ineffective when thrown frontally. Then my front 'checker tiles' usually gets beaten up (but not defeated, due to Roman valour) because they're receiving attacks from three sides. It's less so now that I have Polybian Hastati though.

I don't know what I've done, but the RTW AI seems to be on rabies, Carthage sent a stack to Sardinia and Sicily each (2 african elephants!!!) BY SEA. What remained of Epeiros actually sent a half Stack at Taras, and as I move down Illyria Makedonia attacked me! Not to mention, the bloody barbarians in gaul keep besieging Mediolanum.

edit: I checked with toggle_fow cheat (does the oliphant cheat still work?) and I found the Germans have taken the Eastern Alps.

[jirisys]

@ Jirisys (I just read your sig)

The problem I found was that my line can never be as wide as say... the Greeks'. Unless it's unarmoured rabble that charges towards me, the Pilum is ineffective when thrown frontally. Then my front 'checker tiles' usually gets beaten up (but not defeated, due to Roman valour) because they're receiving attacks from three sides. It's less so now that I have Polybian Hastati though.

I don't know what I've done, but the RTW AI seems to be on rabies, Carthage sent a stack to Sardinia and Sicily each (2 african elephants!!!) BY SEA. What remained of Epeiros actually sent a half Stack at Taras, and as I move down Illyria Makedonia attacked me! Not to mention, the bloody barbarians in gaul keep besieging Mediolanum.

edit: I checked with toggle_fow cheat (does the oliphant cheat still work?) and I found the Germans have taken the Eastern Alps.

That is why there's a Campanian (can be any allied or mercenary cavalry, check the how to be a true roman guide) and two consulares (or a consulares and a equites romani) to charge the fronts that aren't succumbing to the meatgrinders (aka Hastati) the campanians are there for the elephants and chariots, no the oliphant doesn't work here, what difficulty are you playing on? the pilum is not that unnefective, besides that's why there is a SKIRMISHER (archer, slinger, javelineer) checkerboard in the front, to reduce the enemy at long range, and retreat when too close to the enemy, so that you might get them more demoralized

P.S.: Stop insulting barbarian scum, or else some god-haters (aka romaioktonoi, roman haters) are going to spam, put the moderators against you (except ludens:clown:) and troll you to death, because they know that you can only kill a roman man with cheats and sacrilege and uncivilized acts:clown:
But really stop, all of the above is true

~Jirisys (Woe to the victors, because i told you in my post that i have always won with the quinqunx formation every time:clown:)

[athanaric]

I don't know what I've done, but the RTW AI seems to be on rabies, Carthage sent a stack to Sardinia and Sicily each (2 african elephants!!!) BY SEA. What remained of Epeiros actually sent a half Stack at Taras, and as I move down Illyria Makedonia attacked me! Not to mention, the bloody barbarians in gaul keep besieging Mediolanum.
What difficulty are you playing on?

Regarding those elephants, what kind of elephants are they? If they're called Pilei Ya'ar Libim, you can bribe them. Will take a lot of money though.
You can also recruit them in Northern Africa.



(does the oliphant cheat still work?)
IIRC it makes EB crash, so better don't try it.

[Macilrille]

And the insane AI is a well-known problem, nothing to do about it. You can search for advice on dealing with it in the forum.

Back to doing EB II and an insane exam :-(

[Mulceber]

Just to bring some grammar in - woe to the victors should be vae victoribus. vae victrix seems to mean something to the effect of "conquering woe."

Oh and Pikeman, definitely stop insulting the other factions. It'll break what little peace exists between the Romaioktonoi and the Romaiophiloi and will give away the moral high ground in the next conflict (whenever they hate on the Romans we can usually point out that the point of this mod is to give EVERY faction its due: if you go around defaming the other cultures it'll be far more difficult to claim that we believe that). -M

[Rahwana]

Oh and Pikeman, definitely stop insulting the other factions.

yeah, don't try to do what those lowly spammers of Romaioktonoi do, they always think their own faction in too high regards, and faction they depise (romans) are especially low and barbaric... that kind of mindset are actually a very screwed one, coming from outright idiocy and ignorance, as they are refusing to acknowledge any kind of Roman archevement, and spam about how barbaric the Romans is... in mindless way like what Satalexton do.

BTW, try to respect every other faction's archievement, and try to put a good academic discussion about that. not to spam like the spamming group known as romaioktonoi.

[Ludens]

That's enough Romaioktonoi-bashing, guys.

Most Romaioktonoi haven't spammed or caused trouble in a long time. Don't blame the behaviour of a couple of individuals on the entire group.

Now, let's get back to topic.

[antisocialmunky]

And the insane AI is a well-known problem, nothing to do about it. You can search for advice on dealing with it in the forum.

Back to doing EB II and an insane exam :-(

Do Multiplayer :)

[Jebivjetar]

I agree with Ludens, there's no need to bash Romaioktonoi in every occasion, while uncultured street lingo used to offend someone on a personal level is not welcomed in this forum and it represents nothing but a pea-brained, primitive spam.

Anyway, Pikeman

You said that you have problems in your campaign because few enemy factions are attacking you at the same time. First of all, sooner or later you'll find out what is the optimal expansion behavior for your faction, that is for the Romans. Keep in mind that you're surrounded by the AI controlled factions (AI hates human players, and it's very possible that AI faction will attack you whenever you share a border with it). You must also know that some declarations of war are inevitable (because they are scripted). If you, let's say, attack Messana, Carthage will declare war on you by default.
Choose your expansion route wisely, don't expand in many different directions at the same time (that way you'll only have a lot of war zones with a lot of AI factions, and thus the trouble, especially for a newbie in EB, like you). If you, let's say, start to expand into Sicily, Gaul, Illyria at the same time, you'll probably get involved in too many wars. Go slowly, don't hurry.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

edit: I checked with toggle_fow cheat (does the oliphant cheat still work?) and I found the Germans have taken the Eastern Alps.

No, it doesn't.

[Ophiokhos]

A Camillian army isn't the best army to deal with Gauls, in my experience. I had a better time dealing with them when the Polybian reforms came in, but that was when I was a newbie to EB. Try to avoid fighting on too many fronts, especially early on in the game. You could also play as the Arveni or Aedui for a little while to learn more about how their forces work.

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

Go slowly, don't hurry.

That's what she said.:clown:

Taking a fairly historical time to conquer other factions with your 'lings might make things easier, in fact unless the Gray or Yellow death appears, then the stupid AI will make your job fairly easy.

[Duguntz]

Anyone got ideas to help me? Every barbarian blood is worth less than 1 drop of Roman blood. ROMA VICTRIX!!!:laugh4:

haaaa, just when Romaioktonoi calmed it's ardor in the forum, someone had to come and make a statement as bold as that. Tell me, how would you like to die? in a burning Barbaropolis, or along with your entire legions in a Teutoberg style?

Sorry, i don't wanna start a romaioktonoi fire... just answering to provocation...

Now, on a related note, if you want to beat your ennemy, you must KNOW your ennemy. There are plenty of thread about barbarian tactics. Read them, I wrote a quiet extensive tactic guide for sweboz in a post, can be useful for you. I know that AI dosen't use such ''advence tactics'', but by reading all what you can about your ebnnemies, you might just find weaknesses to exploit, and assure your ''Roma Victrix'' (Oooohhh, those words have a bitter taste on my tongue...)

[Cute Wolf]

Please don't confuse Pikemen... it was a normal thing a newbie player start assuming the Romans are everything in the world, and they mistook some other factions... give him time to play Aedui and repeat the Sack of Roma... or as Karthadast, and emulate Hannibal's conquest of Italy. That will change his mind.

[Duguntz]

True, the aim was not to confuse him (btw, welcome to the forum Pikemen!), but he won't bash without being answered! pikemen, I think that, while having trouble with gauls, you'll live hell when you'll encounter Sweboz. They're all hardy, many MANY AP (armour percing) weapons, and better stamina than... well, all units you can produce, meaning that if you run, they'll catch you XD so the best trick is to pepper them with missiles and javelins...

[Rahwana]

True, the aim was not to confuse him (btw, welcome to the forum Pikemen!), but he won't bash without being answered! pikemen, I think that, while having trouble with gauls, you'll live hell when you'll encounter Sweboz. They're all hardy, many MANY AP (armour percing) weapons, and better stamina than... well, all units you can produce, meaning that if you run, they'll catch you XD so the best trick is to pepper them with missiles and javelins...

and don't forget that Sweboz hate Roman pila. :laugh4:

[Duguntz]

Well as most of them are from half to fully naked, it is understandable :)) Still, no units can better define the words TRUE WARRIOR!

[Cute Wolf]

Well as most of them are from half to fully naked, it is understandable :)) Still, no units can better define the words TRUE WARRIOR!

too bad, RTW had no stats to define "dodging" statistics... while in fact, half nude, or nudist warriors could easily evade javelins in loose formations... but not in dense formations like the Sweboz had... oh, Jugundiz are for that job... soaking javelins so their Duguntz can finish the Romans off...

[Ca Putt]

well 9 out of 10 sweboz units are allergic to any kind of ranged projectile no matter if it's a Sotroas' arrow, a Rhodian lead bullet, or a Legionaries Pilum.

[Duguntz]

That's why they come in bunch of 201 guys. Yes, they get pepperes pretty hard at the begining of any engagement if they're outnumbered in missile troops, but once they make contact they generaly still have enough guys left to offer a fair fight.

[Cute Wolf]

so far, I agree that this trait alone made Reidonez and Curepos are very2 important in any Sweboz army... at least, they could give time to bleed enemy missile troops, and let the melee troops come in better shape!

[Ludens]

too bad, RTW had no stats to define "dodging" statistics... while in fact, half nude, or nudist warriors could easily evade javelins in loose formations...

The Gaesatae at the battle of Telamon aparently found otherwise.

[Cute Wolf]

The Gaesatae at the battle of Telamon aparently found otherwise.

because they are surrounded from two sides, and can't dodge as easily because their cramped flank. :wink:

[Ludens]

because they are surrounded from two sides, and can't dodge as easily because their cramped flank. :wink:

That's a bit disingenious: the Celtic army was indeed surrounded, but the Gaesatae were just one unit of it and as I recall it they had advanced beyond the rest of the Celtic line to show their bravery (i.e. the other Celts protected their back). They should have had the space to deploy in a loose (or at least not very tight) formation, unles the cramped flank refers to something I don't know.

[Cute Wolf]

That's a bit disingenious: the Celtic army was indeed surrounded, but the Gaesatae were just one unit of it and as I recall it they had advanced beyond the rest of the Celtic line to show their bravery (i.e. the other Celts protected their back). They should have had the space to deploy in a loose (or at least not very tight) formation, unles the cramped flank refers to something I don't know.

as far as I know, the flanks was filled with chariots and wagons of the gauls to protect them from roman flanking manouveres... so basically the gallic armies can only move forward and backward, not enough room to manouver

[antisocialmunky]

as far as I know, the flanks was filled with chariots and wagons of the gauls to protect them from roman flanking manouveres... so basically the gallic armies can only move forward and backward, not enough room to manouver

Funny, didn't Hannibal have the same thought at Cannae about the Romans?

[Ludens]

as far as I know, the flanks was filled with chariots and wagons of the gauls to protect them from roman flanking manouveres... so basically the gallic armies can only move forward and backward, not enough room to manouver

Again: the gaesatea were but one unit in the Celtic army. The army did have a limited space for movement, but that does not mean the individual units had. It's my impression that gaesatae advanced beyond the other Celtic units and therefor would have had plenty of space to deploy.

[Mulceber]

Plus, what would be dodging tactics? If 80 pila are thrown at you and your friends, there isn't any real dodging you can do. You either get hit or you don't. Imagine a game of dodge ball where every single one of your opponents had a ball and they all threw them at you in a big arc at once. -M

[athanaric]

And a javelin in your heart tends to impede your performance...

[Skullheadhq]

Not for gaesatae, they would just rip the pila out of their hearts and throw it back.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Ave pikeman!

I’ve written quite a guide for you to counter your barbarian foes. For one thing, you need to know your troops, what they can do, what they are good at and what they can’t. But don’t forget that the other side is, as Duguntz stated earlier correctly, that you must also know this for the army of your enemy.

First off, I will tell you what your units can do, and how they counter the enemy best.

I guess you are either in the Camillan or Polybian era. And from the Barbarian cultures you currently face, I will focus the on the Celtic peoples.

Your army

Skirmishers (Accensi, Leves or Velites)

The Accensi are slingers, they are very cheap but can be effective when present on the battlefield with multiple groups or when they come to the field with more experience. Keep them out of battle and use them to harass the enemy, or try to shoot their (Brihentin) Bodyguard cavalry.

The Leves (or later Velites) are cheap mass skirmishers, they can throw large volleys of javelins, but could also be used to wheel around the enemy and harass their lines from the rear. Although the barbarians have no elephants, it is good to know that these men are great elephant killers.

Light and medium infantry (spear) (Rorarii and Hastati Samnitici)

The plus about these units is that they also carry javelins, the downside is that the Rorarii have the habit of routing when put under too much pressure. These men can be used as a sturdy javelin throwing unit, or as spearmen to keep the nasty cavalry away. Skirmish cavalry will also think twice to come near these men, because they will be greeted by a volley of javelins. The Hastati Samnitici are also capable of holding a line when needed, however they shouldn’t be exposed to heavier swordsmen.

Medium infantry (sword) (Hastati)

Cheap and sturdy infantry, they will however not survive contact with heavier foes. If you play historically, these form the first melee line of your army, if you do not however, there is more use for them. Because of their lighter equipment and mobility, these are ideal to outflank engaged enemies (while being protected from cavalry or heavy infantry by preferably Triarii). When they are positioned behind the pinned down enemy, you can throw volleys of pila in the rear and charge after that, this will devastate your enemy. This role can also be fulfilled by Pedites Extraordinarii, but we come back to those later.

Heavy infantry (sword&spear) (Camillan and Polybian Triarii)

These men form the best line infantry of the earlier Romani armies. They are brave, disciplined and well equipped, there is however a small difference. Camillan Principes carry the Hasta, while Polybian Principes carry swords. Both can serve as excellent affordable line infantry, however the earlier version are also quite well at repelling cavalry. Only the heaviest infantry of the Celts will breach them.

Heavy infantry (spear) (Triarii)
These men are very strong and brave men, things will have to go very badly if these should turn their back on you. There is again a difference between Camillan and Polybian, the Camillan fight in a style like Hellenic Hoplitai, the latter fight underhand. They carry no pila, but will compensate with their valor in battle. Cavalry will think twice before engaging them, as they kill cavalry in droves with relative ease. When needed, they can hold a line against the heaviest foes.

Elite infantry (Pedites Extraordinarii)

These soldiers are extremely strong, they carry pila with them and a deadly armor piercing Kopis. The enemy should beware, these men are the “Roman Can-Openers”, they will slaughter enemy heavy troops. Only repeated heavyt cavalry charges and the most elite soldiers can repel them. They are relatively cheap for their effectiveness and win wars. Armoured foes will drop dead and light infantry will present no challenge.

Medium Skirmishing cavalry (Equites Campanici)

These men carry a bunch of javelins, a kopis and an effective shield. They can harass the enemy lines and pursue routers. While these men require some skill to use, they will serve you well if you will. Their kopis as melee weapon will not make them very good chargers.

Medium Cavalry (Equites Romani and Equites Consulares)

Mobile and sturdy cavalry. The latter ones are more useful than the former. The difference comes in the wielding of spears. Both carry a spear and a sword, but the Equites Romani carry their spears overhand. That makes them more suited as melee cavalry than chargers. Again, the Equites Romani need some skill to handle correctly. Melee fighting and chasing down routers would be good uses. Consulares on the other hand are chargers, they are mobile and hardy cavalry, with enough numbers, some repeated charges in the enemy rear will prove effective. They are however made possible by your Family Members, so be careful and keep them away from spearmen!

[U]Heavy Cavalry (Equites Extraordinarii)

And last but not least, the Romani heavy cavalry. These men are quite useful troops, able of delivering charges multiple times. The best tactic would be charging the enemy from the rear with these and win the battle. Watch out for spearmen and be sure that they lower their Xyston. Also ideal to kill the enemy general with, using a charge.

The Celtic armies (Aedui, Arverni and Casse)

Skirmishers (Sotaroas and Iaosatae)

These men are very cheap archers or slingers. Of course they can inflict you some damage when caught off guard, but don’t be too afraid of them. Especially the Sotaroas are just a nuisance unless they come in vast numbers.

Light Infantry (spear) (Lugoae)

In the early times these men might make up the core of Celtic armies, these are untrained masses of spearmen. Keep your cavalry away from them and don’t waste your ammunition on them when better targets are present). When countered correctly, they don’t do much harm and rout quite fast.

Medium Infantry (spear) (Gaeliche (spelling?), Gaeoroas, Caturige Gaedann and Batacorii)

Masses of spearmen, also armed with javelins. Be wary of the javelins while you fight these, also only attack them in the rear with cavalry. If Lugoae are sent routing, these men will follow when put under pressure. The Batacorii are a little hardier than the others, the Gaedann fight with overhand spears.

Medium Infantry (sword) (Bataroas and Botroas)

Celtic swordsmen from the North and the South, they will pepper you with javelins. Can be dangerous in numbers when not countered properly, for they wield fine Celtic longswords, the Southern ones are a bit weaker than the Northern.

Heavy Infantry (sword) (Neitos and Solduros)

Dangerous Celtic heavy infantry, armed in fine armour with a strong sword. The former carry a javelin too and the latter can also grab a combat spear. Be prepared when facing these, they are quite strong and won’t rout easily, a danger to your light and medium troops. Triarii can hold them, and Pedites Extraordinarii will defeat them.

Heavy Infantry (special) (sword) (Carnute Cingetos, Arjos and Gaesatae)

The most dangerous of the Celtic infantry. The first two represent the heaviest troops and elite of Celtic society. The Aedui having the Carnutes and the Arverni have their Arjos, if you encounter them, it would seem wise to handle them with care, they can bring severe blows to your army. Arjos carry a good combat spear while Carnutes hold javelins.
The Gaesatae are different. They are heroic warriors fighting nude and without pain. Killing them in hand to hand is very difficult, best would be to throw javelins in their rear when engaged, or mowing them down with your heavy cavalry.

Light cavalry (Taramannos and Leuce Epos)

Both are agile light cavalrymen, hard to catch. The Leuce Epos are the most dangerous of the two, because they also carry charging spears to deliver a reasonable charge. Counter them with spearmen (who can preferably also throw javelins).

Heavy Cavalry (Brihentin and Remi Mairepos)

Hardy cavalry armed in the similar fashion as your Equites Consulares. These men are however stronger. They can charge with underhand spears and survive in melee using their strong Celtic longswords. Counter them with spearmen or a good charge of your own cavalry.

Chariots

Mobile skirmisher platforms, who can charge and disrupt formations, bodyguards of the Casse. In the hands of the AI, they don't pose too much of a threat. Either kill them with pila or bring them to a halt in a large group of infantry. When they stop moving, they die!

Hope that helps.

~Fluvius

[Macilrille]

See you are turning into a "Palle Light", long tactical advice, next ... ?

Historical threads? ;-)

[athanaric]

Some minor corrections @Fluvius

- Pedites Extraordinarii carry ordinary [sic] javelins, not pila.

- Solduros are stronger than Arjos. The latter however come in bigger numbers.

- Iaosatae (Celtic Slingers) are twice as good as Accensi. They are, ironically, the best recruitable slingers for Romani, apart from Eastern Slingers.

- The main difference between Taramonnos and Leuce Epos is the armour rating (Leuce Epos have better armour, but smaller shields). The weapons are identical, although Taramonnos carry heavier javelins.

[pikeman]

Um.....thank for all the input guys, But playing VH/M has driven me to the brink of extinction. The sweboz (sp?) took milan and bononia (sp); The dark green gauls marched through Segesta and Arretium; The Green Greek Barbarians came back with more elephants and took southern Italy; THEN the baby-eating Carthaginians sailed straight to Roma!

Roma is besieged, and I only have Capua left with 7 silver cheveron Triarii and a unit of that pedits sth. The barbarians come in waves, with a seemingly endless supply of warbands...

Anyone got a semi-civilized faction to suggest me trying? Perhaps the Greeks?

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

Play RoG as the Roman Kingdom of Odoacer... because it's half Germanic, therefore it is half civilized!

[Rahwana]

Um.....thank for all the input guys, But playing VH/M has driven me to the brink of extinction. The sweboz (sp?) took milan and bononia (sp); The dark green gauls marched through Segesta and Arretium; The Green Greek Barbarians came back with more elephants and took southern Italy; THEN the baby-eating Carthaginians sailed straight to Roma!

Roma is besieged, and I only have Capua left with 7 silver cheveron Triarii and a unit of that pedits sth. The barbarians come in waves, with a seemingly endless supply of warbands...

Anyone got a semi-civilized faction to suggest me trying? Perhaps the Greeks?

By Ivpiter! I bet you must underestimate the fear effect of gaesatae and uirodusios, you must experience that your troop started to rout earlier yes?

I suggest you to try Celts or Sweboz, because they are far better than those effaminate bunch of Greeks and Macedonians, at least they are the similar barbaric people, but they are brave and honourable warriors, not some cowards sitting behind their sarissa.

[pikeman]

Ew, I don't want to play as smelly barbarians. Especially when I was raped on 3 fronts by a literal Romaioktonoi alliance...with those germans at the fore!

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

...with those germans at the fore!

As in history, my friend, as in history........:laugh4:

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Try Makedonia. They're pretty much the only ones deserving an empire.

[pikeman]

But they're not even real greeks, just slavs with adopted hellenic customs!

[Jebivjetar]

my is from not america that is late latin porn?

Ololololy! :laugh:

Pikeman: i'd suggest you to try Carthage. A lot of very good infantry and cavalry (especially in your homelands and parts of Iberia) + no one will attack you in Africa (ok, Ptolies may try to take Lepki from you, but that's much more acceptable for a newbie than to be attacked from 3 directions) an you will have a plenty of time to raise your economy and good armies and then decide to expand.

If you'll need advices on Carthage, let me know :knight:

[Macilrille]

No, we would understand if you posted on topic despite your bad English. My French and Tuareg is pretty bad or nonexistant, but it looks like you post completely randomly or think in a way that the rest of us do not, and which we do not understand :-s I cannot crack the code :-(

I would advice you to post mostly on topic, politely and On Topic.

Pikeman, try as Romans again, easiest faction to play. Play on M/M if VH/M gives you trouble, the insane AI will behave less insanely aggressive then. believe me, if you find yourself hard-pressed playing Rome; the Sweboz would feel impossible with their -30k Mnai before they start slowly going in positive again.

That said, Carties sailing an army with eles to Rome... never heard of that before, sounds like a Roman-hater's wet dream.
Screens, must look pretty cool.

[pikeman]

Please don't spam this thread Hroth. =[

@Macrille Those nellies are from Sicily, A fleet picked them up (along with that army), landed near carthage, did nothing.....then came straight for Roma!

[Ludens]

I have to get to work, so I didn't have time to carefully read the thread. Please forgive me if I accidentally deleted the wrong posts.

:focus:

[Rahwana]

good job Ludens ~:thumbsup:

[Mediolanicus]

But they're not even real greeks, just slavs with adopted hellenic customs!

Modern Macedonians have Slav/Bulgar roots, with a Balkan customs.

Slavs weren't even a real people during the Hellenistic times...

What you just said equals: "Native Americans? pff... They're all Irish anyway."

[Fluvius Camillus]

But they're not even real greeks, just slavs with adopted hellenic customs!

Are you going FYROM on our :daisy:? Maion will eat you alive~D

But let's not start that. Let's see what would be a good faction to play for you.

Senatus Populesque Romanus

You know them already, try to expand and build wiser, maybe this time you win?

Makedonia

A very good introductionary faction to EB, while maybe a bit hard at the beginning, you will have an easy time when you have effective control over Hellas. Cool units and potential for an awesome campaign.

Epeiros

Kinda the same as before, just a bit different and.... Pyrrhos + Elephants!!!

Ptolemaioi

Usually the forgotten faction at this forum for unknown reasons. Quite easy faction with very good units, great starting position and a great economy. Play well and your empire will grow to the corners of the earth!

Qarthadast

As has been said before, very good starting positions, great economy and good units, especially when the reforms kick in. Will you expand barcid or anti-barcid? And if you go barcid, will the mines of Iberia still your lust? Or perhaps the rich cities from the Italian Peninsula.

I would suggest Baktria, but if you lose with Rome, this will probably be a bit too hard. A GREAT faction to play.

Good luck with further campaigning, you might want to check out Macilrille's tactical guides for the faction you pick.

~Fluvius

[Mulceber]

Regardless, in antiquity it was considered HIGHLY questionable as to whether or not the Macedonians were Greek - so Pikeman is legit in questioning their credentials, even if he's wrong about the slav part.

Re: which faction to go for, I'd try Romani again, but on M/M - VH/M may be a bit hard on your first go-through. You aren't really going to find a campaign that's as easy (at least early on) as the Romani. -M

[Macilrille]

Notice I only wrote two of the guides, they are supplemented/enhanced and the others written by much better players than I.

But...

When playing Romans, one of my two favorite factions (though Baktria and Getai are also fun), and one of the two easiest factions (the other being the Carties), use historical formation, preferable on high ground; it works very well against everyone- even the Graeculi and uncouth giant trolls in the North. Use Guard Mode to tire your enemies while wearing them down with Pilae and working their flanks (probably wrapped around yours, so caught bewteen two of your forces) in a double envelopment with light/Allied forces not in Guard Mode (Samnites and PE are brilliant for this, but PE can also cut into even phalanxes from front, though taking losses- buggering is better). Then when they start to waver, charge your Principes in, then Triarii. Use cav to hunt down routers. Against wannabee Graeculi using Phalanxes, create local superiority and charge them from behind while tying them up from front.
Cavalry and mobile troops are your reserve for such.

However, if they overwhelm you on the Campaign map as well, you probably need some advice on how to run your civilisation, make money, etc...

[Cambyses]

Regardless, in antiquity it was considered HIGHLY questionable as to whether or not the Macedonians were Greek - so Pikeman is legit in questioning their credentials, even if he's wrong about the slav part.

Re: which faction to go for, I'd try Romani again, but on M/M - VH/M may be a bit hard on your first go-through. You aren't really going to find a campaign that's as easy (at least early on) as the Romani. -M

The thing with the Romans is you really need to take your time, especially in the battles. Just like in real life, let the enemy tire themeselves against your battle line. Keep your troops in a solid supportive formation and in guard mode. Keep uncomitted reserves for as long as possible. Dont risk your cavalry until later in the battle. When you do finally move to overwhelm a flank, then try to get a massive local advantage there (3 to 1 is my rule of thumb)- and especially have at least one decent unit attacking from the rear. Dont go panic rushing your troops all over the place, they just get exhausted and out of position. Remember your biggest advantage is that your army fights as a unit, while the AI tends to run its units around on there own.

And, again, attack already enagaged troops from the rear whenever possible! That's the single biggest trick for successfully moving from vanilla to EB IMO.

So, yeah, the tactics that work so well against "barbarians" wont work the same against Greeks or Carthaginians (or Eastern factions for that matter, but by the time you get that far you should be able to work this out for yourself). Phalanxes are hard to beat with just infantry. Then again, they are slow and easily isolated. Just pick them off one at a time.

[athanaric]

Pikeman, if you are interested, I could give you a campaign savegame of mine, on M/M. Just now I'm destroying the Carthies, and keeping the Ptolies in check. The conquest of Gaul awaits...
It might not be the best way to learn, but it might provide some grim satisfaction for a player who just got smurfed by the AI. Plus it might provide an insight into the play style of an advanced player.

This is a fairly recent screenshot:
https://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7221/vanquisher.jpg (https://img338.imageshack.us/i/vanquisher.jpg/)

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

But they're not even real greeks, just slavs with adopted hellenic customs!
Wow, most insulting bull in a long time heard!

In EB's timeframe, and well beyond, the slavs were dwelling the pripjet-swamps and used to eat crude human meat, the last part according to Herodotus.

It is true that the southern poleis-krate questioned the greekness of the Makedonians, but just out of envy and hatred, since the Makedones since Philippos II. and Alexandros III. showed them repeatedly who's got the pants on.

[SlickNicaG69]

Well, in EB, Rome v. Barbarian would most likely be a battle of numerically inferior, but superior-skilled infantry, vs numerically superior, but inferior-skilled infantry. Otherwise, it would be the previous vs numerically inferior, but superior quality cavalry. Either way, the only real method of winning for the barbarians would be encirclement. Roman heavy infantry is just too strong to be beat up front by any barbarian and, because of this fact, it would have to be attacked from the sides or rear by the barbarians to be defeated. Thus, logic dictates that the ideal Roman formation vs a barbarian army would be a square. That way being encircled would be impossible and would most likely lead to a battle of attrition that the Romans are assured to win. Obviously, victory ultimately depends on each players use of their units and actions, and the best tactic can be defeated by the poorest execution, but given equal opportunity and ability on each side, such a scenario should end in victory for Rome, in EB, as it did for Roma herself!

[Apázlinemjó]

Well, in EB, Rome v. Barbarian would most likely be a battle of numerically inferior, but superior-skilled infantry, vs numerically superior, but inferior-skilled infantry. Otherwise, it would be the previous vs numerically inferior, but superior quality cavalry. Either way, the only real method of winning for the barbarians would be encirclement. Roman heavy infantry is just too strong to be beat up front by any barbarian and, because of this fact, it would have to be attacked from the sides or rear by the barbarians to be defeated. Thus, logic dictates that the ideal Roman formation vs a barbarian army would be a square. That way being encircled would be impossible and would most likely lead to a battle of attrition that the Romans are assured to win. Obviously, victory ultimately depends on each players use of their units and actions, and the best tactic can be defeated by the poorest execution, but given equal opportunity and ability on each side, such a scenario should end in victory for Rome, in EB, as it did for Roma herself!

You should try to play online with Romani against the Celts or the Swebóz, that will change your opinion.

[athanaric]

Well, in EB, Rome v. Barbarian would most likely be a battle of numerically inferior, but superior-skilled infantry, vs numerically superior, but inferior-skilled infantry. Otherwise, it would be the previous vs numerically inferior, but superior quality cavalry.
I'm not getting it. Who's who?



Either way, the only real method of winning for the barbarians would be encirclement. Roman heavy infantry is just too strong to be beat up front by any barbarian and, because of this fact, it would have to be attacked from the sides or rear by the barbarians to be defeated.
Generally right but depends on what kind of Barbarians you're facing. For instance, the Getai are a compromise between Swêboz and Pahlava, making them a nightmarish foe even for Romans.



Thus, logic dictates that the ideal Roman formation vs a barbarian army would be a square. That way being encircled would be impossible and would most likely lead to a battle of attrition that the Romans are assured to win.
Your choice of words would indicate that you have been engaging in unproductive activities such as watching Star Trek. Need I remind you that a square is quite similar to the formation that failed the Roman forces at Carrhae, Osrhoene, Terra Prime, in 53 BCE. The situation of this encounter could easily be recreated by a Barbarian player fielding Getai Horse Archers (Getikoi Hippotoxotai and Ktistai, to be exact) and other specialist troops, with a success probability of 60.8472%.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Thus, logic dictates that the ideal Roman formation vs a barbarian army would be a square. That way being encircled would be impossible and would most likely lead to a battle of attrition that the Romans are assured to win.
Like in Cannae?

[Cute Wolf]

Like in Cannae?

tat was against disciplined, and well inspired Carthies... not against brave but impetuous warriors of Gauls and Germans

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

and Germans

... who would eventually conquer Roma itself....

[J.R.M]

A disciplined Carthaginian army that as far as i remember included lots of Iberian and Gallic mercs.... didn´t it?

[Cute Wolf]

A disciplined Carthaginian army that as far as i remember included lots of Iberian and Gallic mercs.... didn´t it?

and hannibal regards the celtic infantry as expandable, he placed them in the center to absorb Roman push... the Iberians sightly aside, and the veteran Libyans in the flank.

[Jebivjetar]

Did someone mentioned Cannae? Mmmmggghhh... :D

[pikeman]

Roma Prevailed in the end, Scipio Africanus Destroyed Hannibas in Zama, ROMA VICTRIX

[Jebivjetar]

Roma Prevailed in the end, Scipio Africanus Destroyed Hannibas in Zama

Without the mighty Numidian cavalry of Massinisa, Scipio would have leave his bones at Zama. Too bad Carthage didn't realized the posibilities she had with such a great military leader as great Hanibaal Barca was.

[Cute Wolf]

and never forget that the Sacred band was banned from that battle (thanks for the corrupt Carthaginian senate)

[J.R.M]

Politicians - Ruining everything since antiquity.
Hey! i believe that would make a decent demotivator, but im to lazy to do it.

[Jebivjetar]

Politicians - Ruining everything since antiquity.
Hey! i believe that would make a decent demotivator, but im to lazy to do it.

I came up to the same idea when i first read your (unedited) post.

[Cute Wolf]

If I wasn't busy I'll post a pic containing the Sacred band cavalry got slammed by an elephant charge, while the elephant was labelled as "BANHAMMER!"

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Without the mighty Numidian cavalry of Massinisa, Scipio would have leave his bones at Zama. Too bad Carthage didn't realized the posibilities she had with such a great military leader as great Hanibaal Barca was.
The Carthaginian Senate lamentably saw the Roman war as a kind of Hannibal's war and thus decided it would be the wisest no to support him. After all, after a possible win Hannibal could have gained more power and thus cutting that of the senate.

[Grade_A_Beef]

I highly disagree with the quality of Roman heavy infantry

If anything, Celts are the ones with higher quality troops that come in less quantity. Roman infantry is generally a piece of cake if they're stupid enough to form a long line. Sure it'll prevent flanking maneuvers, but I tend to be able to rout Roman (Camillian, about the only era they'll ever get) infantry easily in one devastating charge. If they're smart enough they'll deploy them in multiple lines like historically to tire the Celts out, but the AI isn't all that smart....

In any case the lethality of the longsword usually trumps the armor of the romans. Don't Bataroas have similiar overall defense values as Principes? I don't have time to check. Bataroas will lose if they become exhausted; it seems that defense skill drops as the unit gets more tired, while armor and shield ratings stay the same. But hey, Roman infantry usually routs before that happens anyhow.

I seem to recall that Hannibal would've easily taken the peninsula if he had full support (and hence reinforcements) from Carthage....at least he would've had more significance after Cannae that just sitting at the tip of the Italy for 15 years.

[Macilrille]

No, as Pyrrhus, Hannibal knew that Rome was too large to take, just like Scipio probably knew the same about Carthage. What he could have done was what Scipio did to Carthage, cripple its power so that Carthage could have risen to be a dominant power instead.

However, it would require an all-out effort such as Rome undertook to conquer Spain and evict Hannibal and the Carthaginians were not prepared for that.

In the AAR section there is an excellent analysis, almost an essay, of heavy infantry. Go have a look and get many of your questions answered.

[A Very Super Market]

Needless comparisons of Carthage and tribes of Europe abound! Remember that the main factor in deciding Cannae was the rout and subsequent absence of Roman cavalry. Though the Gauls boasted a grand enough tradition of horsemen, the Sweboz were not very particular to cavalry.

[Azathoth]

Needless comparisons of Carthage and tribes of Europe abound!

You're probably wrong, but this thread is awfully long.

[gamegeek2]

Though the Gauls boasted a grand enough tradition of horsemen, the Sweboz were not very particular to cavalry.

This is correct, until the time the Sweboz became a significant power. By the time the Swēbōzez became a significant power (that is, after the migration many of the then-largely Celtic Ingaevonic tribes - the biggest of which were the Cimbri and Teutones) the tribes north of the Danube and east of the Rhine were fielding cavalry in significant amounts, thanks to superior horses acquired from trade and conquest. Ariovistus had 6,000 cavalry with him - and he instited on meeting with Caesar mounted. Furthermore, Romans would hire Germanic cavalry as well - so clearly they weren't crap. AFAIK, Arminius also fought on horseback when he fought against Germanicus.

However, Ariovistus' cavalry mainly skirmished, and IIRC later dismounted for the main fight.

[Duguntz]

Roman heavy infantry is just too strong to be beat up front by any barbarian and, because of this fact, it would have to be attacked from the sides or rear by the barbarians to be defeated.

Wow... bold statement! you haven't fought sweboz often! One unit of clubmen, given some battle experiance, will eat anything wearing armour (yes, including your triarii!) their Bastarnae (as much as their clubmen) will eat... well, anything with or without armour... principes or even later legionaries is a good way to start trhe day while their wives prepare the breakfast in their gawjam!

[Andy1984]

Second that. Many a roman died marching towards these Batacorii, Bataroas or Catiruge Gaedann, pierced by javelins that were thrown far further than one expects them to. The biggest threat is the morale of these men when they're commanded by a truly mighty war chief; nine or ten command stars, a bunch of morale boosting traits, VH battle difficulty and a full stack of nothing but heavy aedui infantry basicly trashes any Roman force. Hellenic or nomads might still fare rather well thanks to their units. Barbarian generals might have the command stars and the high base moral of their units to make up for it. But roman generals lack the command stars, the traits, the morale and the forces to deal with these armies. I'm unsure how many armies (!) I've lost to such a guy in Gaul, but I can assure you I was glad when he finally left his army...

[J.R.M]

I remember doing like 3 or 4 germanic clubmen vs roman imperial cohort 1 on 1 battles, that was some time ago and you probably know already who won all times.
Again, the best tactic against "barbarian" armies is keeping your distance, throw hell lot arrows/stones/javs, and just melee when you have killed a lot of them, ohh and never forget the cav charges!

P.S: Clubs for the WIN!

[Duguntz]

I remember doing like 3 or 4 germanic clubmen vs roman imperial cohort 1 on 1 battles, that was some time ago and you probably know already who won all times.
Again, the best tactic against "barbarian" armies is keeping your distance, throw hell lot arrows/stones/javs, and just melee when you have killed a lot of them, ohh and never forget the cav charges!

P.S: Clubs for the WIN!

True, romans can do lots of damages with their pila, but not enough to really gain an advantage... velites on the other hands are hell to run after... lots of javlins, and better stamina than most romans units... And of corse... Clubs FTW XD

[Cute Wolf]

the very reason to train Juguntz, is because they are simply stronger and much better than velites... now time to skewering some gauls again...

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah Rome vs Sweboz or Getai was pretty much unplayable due to every single thing having AP. Getai was probably worse since they had sky high morale and men just refuse to rout.

Celts on the otherhand were managable due to lack of AP. Actually in my experience, the best way was to take a minimum of missile cavalry, as many archers as you could get, and 14-16+ morale heavy infantry that you form in squares to reduce kill rates.

[Qvintvs]

Your position is completely hopeless. There is no power in this world that can or is going to help you, I'm sorry. Trying to win with the Romaioi is like trying to walk towards the Moon. In other words, it is against all laws of Physics.

My suggestion: Delete your savegame and start a new one afresh. Don't make the same mistake of choosing the Romaioi (the EB team should remove them as a playable faction, or better as a faction wholly). If there is at least a small fragment of reason within you, you should choose a proper Hellenic faction.

[Duguntz]

Your position is completely hopeless. There is no power in this world that can or is going to help you, I'm sorry. Trying to win with the Romaioi is like trying to walk towards the Moon. In other words, it is against all laws of Physics.

My suggestion: Delete your savegame and start a new one afresh. Don't make the same mistake of choosing the Romaioi (the EB team should remove them as a playable faction, or better as a faction wholly). If there is at least a small fragment of reason within you, you should choose a proper Hellenic faction.

Or Sweboz... Sweboz For The Win!

[J.R.M]

Wait i think i know who wrote that, if it was some time ago then its pretty obvius...... Ludens! am i right? :clown:
PS: Duguntz, when will you learn.... CLUBS FTW.

[Duguntz]

J.R.M. :inquisitive: You're talking to the (probably) most fervent Sweboz fan of this forum... That is : Me :yes: You don't have to teach me the beneficial effect of clubs, I know it since I started to play Sweboz!

[J.R.M]

Yeah yeah i know, i just wanted to feel important........... xD

[Macilrille]

Jorge, do you not do the EBII units with Tux? I only saw Tux as he is the one doing the ones in the faction(s) I work on, but if you do there is no need for more, you are one of the most important people around.


BTW WE NEED SKINNERS AND MODELLERS!!!