Pirates, Russia, Somalia...Politics....

[Kadagar_AV]

Swedish source: the source (http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7112282.ab) is not much to go by.

But I (as of yet) havent found it reported elsewhere...

From Swedish media:

* Pirates attack russian ship outside of Somalia
* Pirates gain ship.
* Russian navy intercepts.
* Russian navy free the russian hostages and kill one terrorist while capturing 10.
* Russian navy has no way to charge the pirates in a legal court.
* Russian navy sets the pirates "free". <- and this is where the problem starts.

You know, freeing someone in the middle of the ocean isn't "all that cool" by some. Basicly, the pirates were left without navigational equipment on a boat in the middle of the ocean. The world at large has condemned Russia for the "inhuman treatment".




C'MON

Ok, so my 2 gc.

1. No. OF COURSE it can not be ok for anyone to just do anything they want. So YES, russia has no right to do anything on international/territorial waters.

2. Yes, OF COURSE it can not be ok for anyone to attack one of Russias ships and think they can get away with it.



So, the Russian navy, the Russian state... were they right or wrong?


The problem here is rather complex, or to translate it:

1. Pirates are scum and should be fought at any time no matter what..
2. XXXXX are scum and should be fought at any time no matter what..


I have no problem what so ever agreeing with post 1. I def do not cry when some drugged up somalis get taken down by russian forces.

So in this case, i would def give russia teh thumbs up.

However... If you elaborate a bit... If Russia can attack pirates, what stops the US from attacking, say... ... ... ... ... ... ...









PS: I could navigate a boat to land with the terms set by the russians. Yes, they had no navigational hardware left... But so what? There IS still a sky. and I am not even navy... I mean, if a poor army sergeant would feel confident about navigating (this) at sea... Then PIRATES should have no problems, right?

It would be like a NINJA asking me to teach him how to throw ninja-stars (shuriken).

[Beskar]

In the words of Americans, Russia doesn't have a liberal infestation, so they can deal with the problems Wild West style.

[Centurion1]

its true.

[drone]

Could be worse, I guess. The Russians could have hanged and gibbeted them. :hanged:

[spmetla]

What Russia did deserves to be condemned publicly but congratulated in private. If the US did the same I would actually be quite against it because of course it would create even more negative publicity for the US, it would betray our proclaimed sense of moral superiority. Russia though, is a different beast, they have a history of being some bad SOB and frankly someone needs to be. Russia's methodology does work in the region, it's a method which used to be relatively effective against pirates though even back in the day pirates would be taken home tried and then hanged. Besides they have a repuation to maintain.
In October 1985, Alfa was dispatched to Beirut, Lebanon, when four Soviet diplomats had been taken hostage by a Sunni militant group. By the time Alfa was onsite, one of the hostages had already been killed. The perpetrators and their relatives were identified by supporting KGB operatives, and the relatives were taken hostage. Following the standard policy of 'no negotiation', Alfa proceeded to sever some of their hostages' body parts and sent them to the perpetrators with a warning that more would follow if the Russian hostages were not released immediately. The tactic was a success and no other Russian national was taken hostage in the Middle East for the next 20 years,[2] until the 2006 abduction of Russian diplomats in Iraq.


Link to Wiki site about Alfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Group)

Guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't mind Russia playing "bad cop" once in a while. Russian ships are probably far less likely to be attacked by pirates in the near future.


I mean, if a poor army sergeant would feel confident about navigating (this) at sea... Then PIRATES should have no problems, right? Of course you can navigate at sea, we all know that the Swedish army are just dismounts to hop out your longboats and pillage a good church or two.

[Husar]

I'm having this discussion on SimHQ(with a lot more conservative americans who find this quite hilarious and think all pirates should be excuted...), and I'll give you the short version.

IMO pirates, especially those who did not kill or harm the crew apart from locking them away or so, are criminals and deserve a trial in a court like all the other criminals do as well.
Killing people just to be badass or because they broke the law is just wrong and does not serve justice at all. Justice is served in a court, no matter how much proof you have, we do not shoot every bank robber here either. Maybe they do in Russia but then Russia isn't paradise as, ironically, conservative Americans(and they're the ones who seem to like what the Russians did the most) like to point out.

Anyway, these people are mostly fishermen who resort to blackmailing and robbing, since when do these two crimes justify shooting/otherwise killing a person without a trial in any western country? Why should we think it's fine in this case?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am in the wrong business.

Reading up the laws on piracy, it seems to boil down to this: if they are in international waters and are not killed during an attack, there is virtually no way to try them for anything. It is a crime that isn't prosecuted. Some navies don't even bother detaining them because if they did, the pirates could claim asylum!

So, the potential to make 100s of thousands USD a year is there, with a surprisingly low degree of risk.

[rotorgun]

While I cannot read Swedish, your post prompted me to do a bit of research. Below are some quotes from a Wikipedia article about it.



Legal authority

There are legal barriers to prosecuting individuals captured in international waters. Countries are struggling to apply existing maritime law, international law, and their own laws, which limits them to having jurisdiction over their own citizens. According to piracy experts, the goal is to "deter and disrupt" pirate activity, and pirates are often detained, interrogated, disarmed, and released. With millions of dollars at stake, pirates have little incentive to stop.

Prosecutions are rare for several reasons. Modern laws against piracy are almost non-existent. For example, the Dutch are using a 17th-century law against "sea robbery" to prosecute. Warships that capture pirates have no jurisdiction to try them, and NATO does not have a detention policy in place. Prosecutors have a hard time assembling witnesses and finding translators, and countries are reluctant to imprison pirates because they would be saddled with them upon their release.[87]

George Mason University professor Peter Leeson has suggested that the international community appropriate Somali territorial waters and sell them, together with the international portion of the Gulf of Aden, to a private company which would then provide security from piracy in exchange for charging tolls to world shipping through the Gulf.[88]

While I agree that there are difficulties in the prosecution of pirates considering the facts, I disagree with the suggestions of Professor Leeson. It is a half measure, to say the least, and one that reeks of corruption ( a bit of piracy in it's own right). I would rather see an international naval coalition formed to guard against attacks in the vulnerable sea lanes.


Law of nations

Piracy is of note in international law as it is commonly held to represent the earliest invocation of the concept of universal jurisdiction. The crime of piracy is considered a breach of jus cogens, a conventional peremptory international norm that states must uphold. Those committing thefts on the high seas, inhibiting trade, and endangering maritime communication are considered by sovereign states to be hostis humani generis (enemies of humanity).[101]

I would say in light of this law, that the Russian Captain acted well within the spirit of the law, and for one to condemn his actions as inhumane is in complete ignorance of the law, not to mention taking a somewhat foolish position . Pirates have given up their right to the protection of the law by the very nature of their acts of violence. That these vermin were not summarily executed, but rather released at sea without navigation aids speaks well of the Russian's restraint.

I believe that they got much more than they deserved. Call me heartless, but I believe it was just. I hope they flounder in a storm. Navigation aids indeed!

PS: I am not a "conservative" in case anyone wants to know. Just a humble man who shuns evil and tries to embrace what is good.

[Kagemusha]

There is a cure for this. In case like this there should be no surviving pirates from the attack. Case closed.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't mind Russia playing "bad cop" once in a while. Russian ships are probably far less likely to be attacked by pirates in the near future.

Yes, it seems like one of those "how utilitarian do you want to be" scenarios.

[Fragony]

They got there by boat, same way back au revoir

[rory_20_uk]

Poetic justice. Good on Russia.

~:smoking:

[Husar]

There is a cure for this. In case like this there should be no surviving pirates from the attack. Case closed.

Absolutely, I also think software pirates should be shot on sight.
And little girls who got caught shoplifting.
These vermin don't deserve any better and the sight of their brains splattered on the floor would show the others of their kind that there is no future in their despicable activities.

[/sarcasm]

[rory_20_uk]

Top pocket, two pills.

~:smoking:

[Jolt]

Absolutely, I also think software pirates should be shot on sight.
And little girls who got caught shoplifting.
These vermin don't deserve any better and the sight of their brains splattered on the floor would show the others of their kind that there is no future in their despicable activities.

[/sarcasm]

If little girls stole merchandise worth millions of dollars, and made the employees of the shop they were shoplifting hostages, then asked for a ransom of millions of dollars, and were caught and tried, we're looking between all Law Systems at a minimum of 15 years in jail to Jail for life/Death Penalty.

Now the pirates aren't little girls, and they aren't smuggling underpanties or donuts or romance books. They are hi-jacking cargo boats valued in the millions of dollars, then holding the crew as hostages, and using the legal hole in International water as protection. I find it extremely well done by the Russians and hope more countries start following it's example. It's not like the Russians sumarily executed them. They gave the pirates a boat, and left them to fend off for themselves. The pirates can theoretically still get back to land, so no harm done there. If they are stupid enough, they die. End of the story.

Well done.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Absolutely, I also think software pirates should be shot on sight.
And little girls who got caught shoplifting.
These vermin don't deserve any better and the sight of their brains splattered on the floor would show the others of their kind that there is no future in their despicable activities.

[/sarcasm]

I really miss Devastatin' Dave in moments like this.

[Pannonian]

Should have given them a sextant and a pocket watch.

[Tellos Athenaios]

What I don't see is: why couldn't the pirates keep their navigation equipment? Disarming them was a good idea, but removing navigation equipment? Why was that necessary?

[rory_20_uk]

I don't think the idea was they make it safely home, to rearm and head off again.

I think the Ruskies were going for an indirect but ultimately final result.

~:smoking:

[Husar]

So a bunch of bankers and speculators stole millions of dollars by lending money to unworthy applicants just to receive big bonuses, then held the economy hostage, demanding bailouts, still caused a huge economic crisis that even drove some people into commiting suicide, guess they also deserve a shot in the neck?

You see, it's okay to shoot them if they resist arrest, want to shoot a hostage etc., but to execute them without trial after capturing them is just wrong and reeks of double standard. If the judge gives them a life sentence, fine, I won't argue with that, but get them to a judge in the first place. Some of them even treat their hostages well, doesn't mean it's not scary anyway etc. but certainly not equivalent to murder. And in most europeans countries we do not even kill people for murder.

[KukriKhan]

So a bunch of bankers and speculators stole millions of dollars by lending money to unworthy applicants just to receive big bonuses, then held the economy hostage, demanding bailouts, still caused a huge economic crisis that even drove some people into commiting suicide, guess they also deserve a shot in the neck?

Hee-hee. Hard to argue against that - just a matter of degree. Lesson? If yer gonna steal, steal BIG, and do it wearing a suit and tie.

[Husar]

I can go on, how about you watch this in the news:

A bunch of guys robbed a bank, are holding everybody inside hostage, demand two million ransom, it's a big bank in the middle of say, New York.
After some bargaining the police goes in, bank robbers give up, noone was harmed, the policemen bring them outside in handcuffs.
Next they make them kneel down in a line and shoot every single one of them in the back of the head.

Is that the kind of justice system we want to live in or that we want to propagate around the world?
To me it sounds awfully like what you'd expect from countries we constantly criticise for their lack of humans rights and subsequently call worse than ourselves.
And the bank robbery with hostage situation is the closest thing to this kind of piracy I can imagine, yet we do not execute them.

[rory_20_uk]

The Russians killed no one. They left the Pirates where they were found.

To use your analogy, outside the bank the robbers had their masks, guns and getaway vehicle impounded and were released to make their own way home, since there are no courts in the area with jurisdiction to try the robbers.

~:smoking:

[Jolt]

So a bunch of bankers and speculators stole millions of dollars by lending money to unworthy applicants just to receive big bonuses, then held the economy hostage, demanding bailouts, still caused a huge economic crisis that even drove some people into commiting suicide, guess they also deserve a shot in the neck?

Here's Ambrose Bierce's definition of something:


Corporation, noun; An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

But yes, I believe they all should be put in jail or shot and all of their assets taken and redistributed between the State/population.


You see, it's okay to shoot them if they resist arrest, want to shoot a hostage etc., but to execute them without trial after capturing them is just wrong and reeks of double standard. If the judge gives them a life sentence, fine, I won't argue with that, but get them to a judge in the first place. Some of them even treat their hostages well, doesn't mean it's not scary anyway etc. but certainly not equivalent to murder. And in most europeans countries we do not even kill people for murder.

See, to that I ask "What judge?" The fundamental problem behind this is that they cannot be legally trialed. If they cannot be trialed then they must forcibly be released without any punishment for having attempted to hi-jack a boat, its cargo and crew and making these last ones hostages, and having been caught in the act. And since they know they cannot be trialed and must be released they keep doing that. If they successfully manage to hi-jack and get a ransom for a ship and crew, then they'll have enough money to buy a small boat and a handful of AKs, ammunition and one RPG easily, many, many times, over and over again.

[Louis VI the Fat]

And the bank robbery with hostage situation is the closest thing to this kind of piracy I can imagine, yet we do not execute them.Indeed.

I think leaving people to die of hunger and thirst in the middle of the ocean is criminal.


The problem is that there is no way to trie the pirates. We can't take them to Europe. It will not only be grossly expensive, but inevitably, we'll never get them returned to Somalia again. Somalia is a war zone, the pirates will have lived in Europe for years if they've served a long sentence. So they will be granted asylum. Then they'll receive a thousand euro benefit for the rest of their lives, be given a house, get to bring over their extended family for re-unification, mutilate their daughters, and hang outside all day long bothering, robbing and spitting at the locals because they don't have any meaningful skills with which to find a job anyway, nor much interest in aquiring any.

And there are only so many million of those we can handle.

Receiving a fair trail in Europe would be like winning the jackpot. There won't be a Somalian left who wouldn't trust himself on any European ship he can get to.
[/rant]



We should really bribe Kenya to let us organise trials for pirates there, to incarcerate them there, and then send them back directly over the border to Somalia at the end of their prison sentence.

[rory_20_uk]

Or Jamaica. Or Burma. Indonesia. There are loads of countries who would love hard cash to look after some prisoners. "Sadly", many might not live to be released from jail, but if they did then yes, send them back home.

~:smoking:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Good for the Russians.


Somalia is a war zone, the pirates will have lived in Europe for years if they've served a long sentence. So they will be granted asylum. Then they'll receive a thousand euro benefit for the rest of their lives, be given a house, get to bring over their extended family for re-unification, mutilate their daughters, and hang outside all day long bothering, robbing and spitting at the locals because they don't have any meaningful skills with which to find a job anyway, nor much interest in aquiring any.

That is absurd.

CR

[Major Robert Dump]

Maybe they should have brought navigation equipment with them. How did they ever manage to navigate in the first place? Did they teleport onto the ship? Maybe next time they will keep their own boat in tow? Maybe they should have driven the tanker in a direction towards home?

Yeah, leaving them was "not humanitarianish."

But really, freaking funny.

They have to be discouraged somehow, and every one of them that makes it home unscathed makes even more want to be pirates.

Hopefully next, navies start marooning them on small islands or, even better, drop them in south america. Now that would be funny

[Louis VI the Fat]

That is absurd.

CRWelcome to the Euroweenian Union:



THE Royal Navy, once the scourge of brigands on the high seas, has been told by the Foreign Office not to detain pirates because doing so may breach their human rights.
Warships patrolling pirate-infested waters, such as those off Somalia, have been warned that there is also a risk that captured pirates could claim asylum in Britain.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3736239.ece

Somali pirates embrace capture as route to Europe

Somali pirates might be allowing themselves to be deliberately captured in order to take advantage of European asylum laws, Dutch legal experts have warned

Pirates captured after attacking a Dutch vessel have gone on trial in the liberal Netherlands and at least two of them have declared their intention to stay on as residents.
Geert-Jan Knoops, an international criminal law attorney and professor at the Royal University of Utrecht, has suggested that the Dutch trial might encourage pirates to surrender just in order to seek a better life in Western countries.

"These trials may trigger other pirates to let themselves be arrested on purpose," he told the Volkskrant newspaper. "The Dutch Justice department must be cautious. I cannot imagine the five alleged pirates would voluntarily return to Somalia after their conviction."

The five Somali pirates were arrested off the coast of Africa in January by Danish marines after attacking the Samanyulo, a Dutch-flagged cargo ship. But since Somalia has a record of international human rights violations it will be almost impossible to deport the men after their conviction in the Netherlands. "Life is good here," said one of the defendants, named Sayid, about his experience in a Dutch jail.
"I appeal to the government not to send me back to Somalia. The people who live here respect human rights. I wish to settle here." Willem-Jan Ausma, a Dutch defence attorney who is representing another pirate, described his client's relief to be in a Western prison.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/piracy/5350183/Somali-pirates-embrace-capture-as-route-to-Europe.html

[Pannonian]

Hopefully next, navies start marooning them on small islands or, even better, drop them in south america. Now that would be funny

We can dump them in America or Australia, as we used to do with our undesirables.

[drone]

We can dump them in America or Australia, as we used to do with our undesirables.
Antarctica.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

We can dump them in America or Australia, as we used to do with our undesirables.

Thanks for the chuckle.


Seriously though, the only points in history where Piracy has been marginalized are those eras where pirates were considered a common threat and EVERYONE dealt with them harshly. In those by-gone and less enlightened times that meant that most of them met Jack Ketch -- and it was a certainty for any pirate leader.

Now the pirates can a) make a lot of money if the companies make the smart choice and pay rather than delay delivery of a valuable cargo, or b) get caught by naval forces and be 1) sent home to try again, or 2) incarcerated in a prison that provides a better standard of living than you had before you were a pirate and -- because of asylum laws and bureacracy -- may give you permanent residency as a free person in a country with a great standard of living. Into the bargain, they might even pay you for breathing as they do some of their own citizens.

All of us .orgers should consider pooling funds to buy some zodiacs and kalishnikovs and base ourselves in Madagascar somewhere. We're clearly NOT the smart ones.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Thanks for the chuckle.


Seriously though, the only points in history where Piracy has been marginalized are those eras where pirates were considered a common threat and EVERYONE dealt with them harshly. In those by-gone and less enlightened times that meant that most of them met Jack Ketch -- and it was a certainty for any pirate leader.

Now the pirates can a) make a lot of money if the companies make the smart choice and pay rather than delay delivery of a valuable cargo, or b) get caught by naval forces and be 1) sent home to try again, or 2) incarcerated in a prison that provides a better standard of living than you had before you were a pirate and -- because of asylum laws and bureacracy -- may give you permanent residency as a free person in a country with a great standard of living. Into the bargain, they might even pay you for breathing as they do some of their own citizens.

All of us .orgers should consider pooling funds to buy some zodiacs and kalishnikovs and base ourselves in Madagascar somewhere. We're clearly NOT the smart ones.

I just happen to know where we can get our hands on the proper tools befitting our new station. Say hello to my leetle friends...https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/pimpmyak1.jpghttps://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/pimpmyak2.jpg

[drone]

I just happen to know where we can get our hands on the proper tools befitting our new station. Say hello to my leetle friends...https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/pimpmyak1.jpghttps://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/pimpmyak2.jpg

I had no idea Liberace owned firearms. :inquisitive:

[LittleGrizzly]

I think we should pay the somalis to patrol thier own waters, anyone discovered using thier waters as dumping ground should be fined millions (whoever thier working for) to help pay for this service. We could also let them make hostages out of these people and give them the oppurtunity to ransom them back...

I figure we need to give the Somali's some kind of alternative income.....

As a final note it is obviously hysterical that some desperate poverty stricken men who turned to piracy as a desperate last hope are now stranded in the middle of the ocean without navigaytion equipment, I can only hope thier joined by a man attempting to steal bread for his starving family and some other assorted evil do'ers...

[Hosakawa Tito]

I had no idea Liberace owned firearms. :inquisitive:
And I had no idea Liberace was a Mexican drug lord...:laugh4:


I think we should pay the somalis to patrol thier own waters, anyone discovered using thier waters as dumping ground should be fined millions (whoever thier working for) to help pay for this service. We could also let them make hostages out of these people and give them the oppurtunity to ransom them back...

I figure we need to give the Somali's some kind of alternative income.....

As a final note it is obviously hysterical that some desperate poverty stricken men who turned to piracy as a desperate last hope are now stranded in the middle of the ocean without navigaytion equipment, I can only hope thier joined by a man attempting to steal bread for his starving family and some other assorted evil do'ers...

By all means feel free to send them along a monthly check. I rather prefer Louis's Kenyan solution, which I believe has been tried with no luck so far. Failing that, the Russian Nantucket Sleigh Ride option will have to do.

[Pannonian]

As a final note it is obviously hysterical that some desperate poverty stricken men who turned to piracy as a desperate last hope are now stranded in the middle of the ocean without navigaytion equipment, I can only hope thier joined by a man attempting to steal bread for his starving family and some other assorted evil do'ers...

In the town where I was born
There lived a man who was a thief
He told me of his life
Stealing bread and shagging sheep
So they put him in the nick
And a magistrate he went to see
Then they sent him on a ship
To the convict colony

You all live in a convict colony, convict colony, convict colony
You all live in a convict colony, convict colony, convict colony

[Sarmatian]

I think we should pay the somalis to patrol thier own waters, anyone discovered using thier waters as dumping ground should be fined millions (whoever thier working for) to help pay for this service. We could also let them make hostages out of these people and give them the oppurtunity to ransom them back...


Yep, but you would need to send them money, ships, trainers, officers and a huge administration to keep an eye on all that. Actually why do I care, I live in a land-locked country. :laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

why do I care, I live in a land-locked country. :laugh4::stare:


The Swiss navy is very involved with the French navy in defeating piracy. We even managed to trap force convince with reason Switserland into paying into the EU coffers to support the EU anti-piracy mission.

[Sarmatian]

:stare:


The Swiss navy is very involved with the French navy in defeating piracy. We even managed to trap force convince with reason Switserland into paying into the EU coffers to support the EU anti-piracy mission.

Well, you should contact Serbian government, they're always ready to suck up to suites in Brussels. Might even give you half of our naval budget in which case you could get up to 29.99 euros. Per year of course.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, you should contact Serbian government, they're always ready to suck up to suites in Brussels. Might even give you half of our naval budget in which case you could get up to 29.99 euros. Per year of course.Wait, I remembered wrong. The Swiss eventually narrowly voted against sending their mighty navy. It's Norway that's involved with the EU.

Are you sure Serbia shouldn't follow Norway's lead? It will be an excellent opportunity for Serbia to show Europe it is a worthy future member!

Or else let me speak to somebody in your navy. I bet I can convince him. No military wants to keep its planes on ground and its ships ashore.

We want your money money money!!!

[Sarmatian]

We want your money money money!!!

I'm sorry but we have to save our money for our corrupt politicians. They're all morally challenged and have no skills whatsoever. How are they gonna earn a living otherwise?

Ok, you can get both our planes but that's it.

[Pannonian]

Or else let me speak to your navy. I bet I can convince him.

Corrected.

[Kadagar_AV]

Enough jokes about the swiss navy...

Of course there is Swiss Navy! (http://www.condom.com/swiss-navy-water-based-lubricant.html)!



They have pretty wierd recruitment posters though.

https://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh244/EKFriedman/SD2007-banner-rev2-2.jpg





About the PIRATES, why is it so hard to make an international law against this?

[Beskar]

The Swiss actually do have a navy. It is a couple of tugboats on Lake Geneva.

[Husar]

The Russians killed no one. They left the Pirates where they were found.

To use your analogy, outside the bank the robbers had their masks, guns and getaway vehicle impounded and were released to make their own way home, since there are no courts in the area with jurisdiction to try the robbers.

~:smoking:
If I'm not mistaken they left them but took away all their food and other essentials, that's not just theft (stealing from a criminal wasn't legal last I heard), it's also rather equal to a death sentence, except not done by a judge but decided upon by some russian sailors. And besides, I wasn't just commenting on this case but also on the people saying pirates should always be shot.


We should really bribe Kenya to let us organise trials for pirates there, to incarcerate them there, and then send them back directly over the border to Somalia at the end of their prison sentence.
http://www.armybase.us/2009/11/german-navy-hands-seven-somali-pirates-to-kenya/


Good for the Russians.
I thought you were pro-life?

[Centurion1]

austria has a navy as well according to my daddy's big old book of navies.

this is absolutely hilarious now tha ti think of it.

Russian Captain: We let you go
Somalia: (stupid european im just going to buy another ak)
Russian Captain: With no navagation gear and all of you on a dinghy.
Somalian: Awwwwwww ****

all in a russian accent of course.

that being said if we really wanna get rid of these problems we need to get international patrols and we need to arm civilian ships.

not like the somalian navy can defend the red sea....... with all two of their jetskis


I thought you were pro-life?

i tohught you were pro-choice. you should be ecstatic they got an option, get in the dinghy or face mother russias wrath.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm sorry but we have to save our money for our corrupt politicians. They're all morally challenged and have no skills whatsoever. How are they gonna earn a living otherwise?I see what you did there.


I must disagree though: Balkan politicians are very skilled. They are very skilled at being corrupt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) and sucking dry the populace. They get away with it, because they operate in a client society, and in an honour society. So insofar as people aren't directly dependent on corruption, the corrupt politicians can rely on pride in these honour societies. Balkanites will bite their tongue to outsiders, keep the silence, and thereby protect people or behaviour they in their hearts hate with a vengeance. The pride of the family, of the locality, or of the nation comes first, before the truth or individual frustration.
[/amateur national psychology, always a recipe for popularity around here :beam:]


that being said if we really wanna get rid of these problems we need to get international patrols and we need to arm civilian ships.

not like the somalian navy can defend the red sea....... There is no Somalian navy, because there is no Somalian state. There are only armed civilian ships.

So the solution is not more armed civilian ships and justice done by Russian mobsters, but more state controlled intervention to spread some semblance of the rule of law.

[Centurion1]

I know there's no somalian navy hence the. .........

When you can stabilize that region without violence and total overhaul of their entire society I will lick your French boots

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I know there's no somalian navy hence the. .........

When you can stabilize that region without violence and total overhaul of their entire society I will lick your French boots

He's FRENCH. He does not wear boots (unless he picked up the habit from Strike). Frenchmen love their women in boots (seulement, bien sur) but prefer something a bit more stylish themselves.

If you're very nice to him following his success, he'll let you buy him a bottle of '61 Pontet Canet. Do NOT expect him to share unless you've educated your palate a bit.

[rotorgun]

If a criminal breaks into your home, armed, with the ability to do violence upon you or your loved ones, most would agree that if you were to kill said criminal in self defense, than it is just. Is this not a summary execution without the benefit of a trial? You might, if given the chance, be able to escape your house, avoiding the violence if the circumstances were right-a very speculative notion I agree, but possible. At sea, there is no where to run from a violent attack. One must defend the ship because it is your only real chance to survive. Pirates are a special kind of criminal; to threaten the lives of people aboard a vessel at sea creates a special kind of victim. There is no law at sea except that which the master of the vessel, or captain if we may, is responsible for. Under certain circumstances, he may take life for crimes, such as mutiny, which threaten the safety and lives of those he is responsible for. Most courts would back such a decision if made for such a reason.

I am not advocating the summary execution of anyone, but if all of the countries involved don't agree to have a way of trying pirates in an international agreement, then pirates will only be encouraged to continue their plundering. Maybe we need to send them all to a prison on some remote island guarded by an international force made up from all the players involved.

[Beskar]

I am not advocating the summary execution of anyone, but if all of the countries involved don't agree to have a way of trying pirates in an international agreement, then pirates will only be encouraged to continue their plundering. Maybe we need to send them all to a prison on some remote island guarded by an international force made up from all the players involved.

I thought that was Africa?

[LittleGrizzly]

Yep, but you would need to send them money, ships, trainers, officers and a huge administration to keep an eye on all that. Actually why do I care, I live in a land-locked country.

Well for one I assume they already have some ships over there, unless they swim to thier targets (future olympians maybe) give them some camera's and we could pay them* for each vessel dumping they catch.

Let them then take the crew hostage and start negoations with either the nation or thier individual familys for a ransom for return.

*with fines we collect from whatever companies and individuals are responsible

It will give them a profitable alternative to piracy whilst being for the good of Somalia in general...

Its quite hard to think of a way to do this fairly but i think its sickening that people we in the west have helped put into a place* where they resort to piracy are now fair targets for all kinds of nasty deaths

*its not a huge portion of the blame we share but we certainly helped them to get where they are going

I guess we are just lucky in the west that we can sit at our computers and judge men in extreme situations so harshly whilst sipping on our tea...

[spmetla]

Being a disenfranchised fisherman is no excuse for piracy. This is not the only region in the world with problems and certainly not the only with prolific piracy, these pirates shouldn't get harsher or kinder justice than pirates in other areas. Being put in a boat is certainly harsher then the possibility of asylum if say the Dutch Navy captured then but then bear in mind that China executes the pirates it captures, though these are murderous pirates as well. (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-58380103/13-pirates-sentenced-die.html)

While I'd prefer that most European ships as well as the US Navy continue operations as they have in which pirates are brought to court I still believe that there need to be a few nations such as Russia that can deal out the tough love. While these pirates are in all likelihood dead it's not like they were summarily executed on the side of the ship. Seeing as they often operate with "motherships" there is a possibility of rescue if their financiers/support ships care enough.

Your method of essentially paying them off isn't going to solve the problem and in fact is similar to what used to happen constantly in regards to the Barbary Coast Pirates. Not to mention that your solution is basically agreeing to allow sailors to be kidnapped, most of these acts of piracy happen well outside Somalia's waters so how would you fine a company for having its ships operate in international waters. (http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=visualization&controller=visualization.googlemap&Itemid=219)

Paying for a Somali Coast Guard would be a good step and will help reduce illegal dumping and fishing but it will not stop piracy.

The solution is of course not simple or cheap but of course lies in somehow fixing Somalia, though I still that the opportunity to do so was missed back when Pres. Clinton pulled out Somalia which essentially abandoned the hope for stability in this country.

[LittleGrizzly]

There's hardly ever a good enough reason for misdeeds individuals and nations do, I just feel its unfair that the bigger and more powerful can screw others over and get away with it but a desperate somalian pirate must have all kinds of nasty inflicted on him... what I am mainly asking is we offer the somalians an alternative, if we get thier country somewhat stable and provide alternative sources of employment then fine these people deserve whats coming to them but as it is they have been backed into a corner and then are beaten for lashing out... what else was expected ?

With the capture and ransom I was just referring to the dumping of toxic waste (I assume the waste is actually dropped inside somalian waters, or what could be considered thiers if they had a goverment strong enough to declare it so)

Im not saying actually pay the pirates, for one im proposing a coast gaurd (which could in future help with piracy but to start with probably wouldn't work) secondly we could make the effort to clean up thier waters and repopulate the fish along thier coast line, wherever possible hire somalians to help with this, once done they can fish again.

Basically what I am proposing is rather than deal with the consequences of Somalia and cheer inhumane treatment of desperate people, why don't we goto the source of the problem, offer the locals alternatives to piracy. Hell we could even build jails and pay gaurds to house whatever pirates we catch. It may start off as a bunch of industrys supported by the west* but via the trickle down effect the economy would somewhat kick into gear and there would be decent alternatives to piracy

*I assume our anti piracy missions cost money anyway, combine this with the fact we helped them get where they are currently

All of this could be combined with big efforts to fight the pirates and make it not worth thier while (no asylum ect.)

[spmetla]

Of course it's unfair, life is unfair, everyone has to deal with that fact, they get no extra sympathy from me just because chance put them there and me here. Somalian pirates live by that same rule, they prey on weaker less powerful ships to their own profit, some of those ships come from countries that will deliver harsh justice others kind justice, that's just chance and who they choose to pick on. From now on that's less likely to be a Russian ship they pick on.

Fining ships illegally dumping wouldn't really be a revenue source for the Somali government, unless of course as you suggested other governments pay all the overhead for operating a Coast Guard. Of course if they use this coast guard to board vessels illegally dumping and then ransom back the crew and ship instead of jailing the violators like they should then we'd be funding state funded piracy.

Investing in Somalia is as you undoubtedly know a catch-22. The security situation is too bad to invest but they need investment to improve the security. That's why I still begrudge President Clinton's abandoning Somalia because US Soldiers providing security by having to shoot aggressors that happen to be black is bad politics. Bear in mind not all Somalis get by on piracy, there must be some way the rest of that country is getting by. Those that resort to piracy do so right now because the potential profit seems to be better than than consequences of being caught, what Russia just did is up the consequence of piracy a little. Look at the link I posted of the ICC piracy map for past years, one pirate crew left adrift and a few others killed when resisting boarding by anti-piracy forces are but a drop in the bucket of successful pirate attacks which is why they will continue. Russia's actions only make it less likely that Russian flagged ships will targeted, or at least as high profile ones such as oil tankers.

Anti-piracy operations do cost money but that's primarily for the operation and support of ships of pre-existing navies. Building a new coast guard/navy for somalia and then funding it would be incredibly expensive not to mention there's little guarantee that those Somali coast guard/naval ships would actually do the unpopular task of policing their own countrymen.

As for piracy being a good form of income, who do you think gets that income? Do you imagine that the profits from piracy are distributed in an egalitarian manner as if these pirates are modern Robin Hoods? The profits are likely to be going to just another local warlord so that he can more successfully fight the next warlord over and drive in a newer Mercedes and own the best looking Italian sunglasses.

[Husar]

that being said if we really wanna get rid of these problems we need to get international patrols and we need to arm civilian ships.
There are already international patrols, but how many thousands of ships do you want to send there to cover the whole area? Do you know how much that would cost?
The idea of the french, to bundle the ships in convoys, guarded by a few military ships, seemed quite good, but I guess most ships cannot wait for a convoy to form so they take the risk of getting boarded by pirates.


i tohught you were pro-choice. you should be ecstatic they got an option, get in the dinghy or face mother russias wrath.
Where did I ever say I'm pro-choice? That's just you having a prejudice/being jealous because I'm a European...
And the choice is pretty lame if both options have the same outcome...


If a criminal breaks into your home, armed, with the ability to do violence upon you or your loved ones, most would agree that if you were to kill said criminal in self defense, than it is just. Is this not a summary execution without the benefit of a trial? You might, if given the chance, be able to escape your house, avoiding the violence if the circumstances were right-a very speculative notion I agree, but possible. At sea, there is no where to run from a violent attack. One must defend the ship because it is your only real chance to survive. Pirates are a special kind of criminal; to threaten the lives of people aboard a vessel at sea creates a special kind of victim. There is no law at sea except that which the master of the vessel, or captain if we may, is responsible for. Under certain circumstances, he may take life for crimes, such as mutiny, which threaten the safety and lives of those he is responsible for. Most courts would back such a decision if made for such a reason.

Yes, but once you have them captured and handcuffed, what reason do you have to kill them then? If the crew wants to start a shootout with boarding pirates on an oil tanker that's their own decision, I'm not going to argue about people trying to fight for their freedom and/or lives, but it also bears quite a few risks, we already said many ports don't allow armed crews etc.


Being put in a boat is certainly harsher then the possibility of asylum if say the Dutch Navy captured then but then bear in mind that China executes the pirates it captures, though these are murderous pirates as well.
That the pirates often run away once they come under fire(or water) from almost anything also shows that they're not the cold blooded murderomaniacs that the Chinese always kill.
And since when was China a role model for the West concerning how to treat people anyway?


While these pirates are in all likelihood dead it's not like they were summarily executed on the side of the ship. Seeing as they often operate with "motherships" there is a possibility of rescue if their financiers/support ships care enough.
Well, now you're pulling a pontius pilatus, washing your hands in innocence. ~;)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Many ports do not allow vessels in if they have arms. Why? Here's the fun part....to prevent piracy.

It's vital to keep an armed ship out of Goa so that they won't pirate anybody in the port. Oh wait, that doesn't work, they just jump the ship en route to Goa don't they?

This is gun control at sea. The logic runs thus: "if we ban guns at sea, the tools of violence will be unavailable and the violence will be lessened." Like other prohibition efforts, it has worked wonderfully....not.

My country has been involved in international mercantilism since its inception. Armed ships sailed into our ports for decades, with the weaponry on the ship often outgunning what the port had to defend its citizens. The same can be said for much of Europe. Why are we so enamored of making merchants defenseless now?

[Vladimir]

Why are we so enamored of making merchants defenseless now?

Because we're civilized you colonial!

[rotorgun]

Husar-Yes, but once you have them captured and handcuffed, what reason do you have to kill them then? If the crew wants to start a shootout with boarding pirates on an oil tanker that's their own decision, I'm not going to argue about people trying to fight for their freedom and/or lives, but it also bears quite a few risks, we already said many ports don't allow armed crews etc.

I agree Husar, for what is justice without mercy. I was just pointing out some of the more unique facets of violent crimes while at sea, where there are no police to call on. It's why there is a need to allow merchant vessels to arm themselves against such depredations. Convoying through pirate operating areas is a wise precaution as well. Ships captains need the international community to provide guidelines and legal authority to deal with those who are captured.

As for this abandoning of the pirates in a small boat without navigational aids, most modern pirates don't operate far from the coast. I'll bet that they weren't that far from safety. They probably had a fair chance to survive. I still think that the Russian acted appropriately in the circumstances. I think it unfair to judge him harshly unless one was there to observe the facts.

[Tellos Athenaios]

My country has been involved in international mercantilism since its inception. Armed ships sailed into our ports for decades, with the weaponry on the ship often outgunning what the port had to defend its citizens. The same can be said for much of Europe. Why are we so enamored of making merchants defenseless now?

Au contraire. Arms on merchant vessels is more of a historical exception than rule; the period you speak of refers to the brief period in which piracy was pretty much officially sanctioned extension of state navies -- and even then, as far as Dutch merchant ships go, it was prohibited for the crew to actually carry arms, with weapons and munition locked away until actually engaging an enemy. Sometimes the ships would include a military detachment, more often than not ships would simply convoy relying on numbers for their safety.

As soon as the European powers no longer needed the pirates when their own navies were sufficiently well developed to do battle on their own they moved swiftly to crush this threat to their mercantile interests; restoring things back to normal.

[Viking]

Frenchmen love their women in boots

So they wear boots after all? ~:confused:

[Centurion1]

Why can't you lock up an smg as well as a flintlock etc.

[Kadagar_AV]

Many ports do not allow vessels in if they have arms. Why? Here's the fun part....to prevent piracy.

It's vital to keep an armed ship out of Goa so that they won't pirate anybody in the port. Oh wait, that doesn't work, they just jump the ship en route to Goa don't they?

This is gun control at sea. The logic runs thus: "if we ban guns at sea, the tools of violence will be unavailable and the violence will be lessened." Like other prohibition efforts, it has worked wonderfully....not.

My country has been involved in international mercantilism since its inception. Armed ships sailed into our ports for decades, with the weaponry on the ship often outgunning what the port had to defend its citizens. The same can be said for much of Europe. Why are we so enamored of making merchants defenseless now?

1. If the pirates has weapons and the crew does not, there wont be a shoot out, no one will do anything stupid having people killed, and at large more lives will come out of the situation, you know, alive?

2. Maybe you havent heard, but national states dont really like when ships dock with a load of guns...

You are aware, that if 10+ men in uniform, in arms, step over a border, it is in fact an invasion (and can be met as such). We would have to rewrite a lot of international laws.

3. Isnt capitalism beautiful?

X thousands of companies have a 0,0005% chance to lose a ship. They could prevent it if all of the companies spend 0,005% of the income on protection... See where the math fails in a capitalistic society?

[rotorgun]

Au contraire. Arms on merchant vessels is more of a historical exception than rule; the period you speak of refers to the brief period in which piracy was pretty much officially sanctioned extension of state navies -- and even then, as far as Dutch merchant ships go, it was prohibited for the crew to actually carry arms, with weapons and munition locked away until actually engaging an enemy. Sometimes the ships would include a military detachment, more often than not ships would simply convoy relying on numbers for their safety.

As soon as the European powers no longer needed the pirates when their own navies were sufficiently well developed to do battle on their own they moved swiftly to crush this threat to their mercantile interests; restoring things back to normal.

I believe you are referring to Privateering, which is officially sanctioned by a state during times of peace. It is reffered to often as La Guerre de Course, or a way of a weaker nation attacking a stronger one during a war. Privateering was eventually denounced in modern times, but is quite different than Pirateering which is a criminal act by international law, a small point, but significant.

[Shaka_Khan]

* Pirates attack russian ship outside of Somalia
* Pirates gain ship.
* Russian navy intercepts.
* Russian navy free the russian hostages and kill one terrorist while capturing 10.
* Russian navy has no way to charge the pirates in a legal court.
* Russian navy sets the pirates "free". <- and this is where the problem starts.

You know, freeing someone in the middle of the ocean isn't "all that cool" by some. Basicly, the pirates were left without navigational equipment on a boat in the middle of the ocean. The world at large has condemned Russia for the "inhuman treatment".
I think the Western superpowers of the 20th century have dominated the world for such a long time that they are now being blamed by the same Western superpowers while feeling sympathy for everyone else. Everyone likes the underdog.

[A Nerd]

Criminals should be punished accordingly. To take a cargo vessel or the like, full of unarmed civilians, for fiscal profit (despite seemingly benign intentions), is moraly wrong. They shouldn't be allowed to leave comfortably or be rewarded with asylum when so many of their contrymen suffer for hope at home. The 'compassionate' decision not to execute the pirates and let them find their way home in the open ocean with that sense of 'direction' that led them to hijack the frieghter in the first place is good and just in my opinion. That idic Russian thinking was absolutely brilliant in my opinion.

Edit: Freud's (sp.) Id (idic). I like to make up words and have often thought Russians think in this manner.

[Furunculus]

Swedish source: the source (http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7112282.ab) is not much to go by.

But I (as of yet) havent found it reported elsewhere...

From Swedish media:

* Pirates attack russian ship outside of Somalia
* Pirates gain ship.
* Russian navy intercepts.
* Russian navy free the russian hostages and kill one terrorist while capturing 10.
* Russian navy has no way to charge the pirates in a legal court.
* Russian navy sets the pirates "free". <- and this is where the problem starts.

You know, freeing someone in the middle of the ocean isn't "all that cool" by some. Basicly, the pirates were left without navigational equipment on a boat in the middle of the ocean. The world at large has condemned Russia for the "inhuman treatment".

C'MON

Ok, so my 2 gc.

1. No. OF COURSE it can not be ok for anyone to just do anything they want. So YES, russia has no right to do anything on international/territorial waters.

2. Yes, OF COURSE it can not be ok for anyone to attack one of Russias ships and think they can get away with it.

So, the Russian navy, the Russian state... were they right or wrong?

The problem here is rather complex, or to translate it:

1. Pirates are scum and should be fought at any time no matter what..
2. XXXXX are scum and should be fought at any time no matter what..

I have no problem what so ever agreeing with post 1. I def do not cry when some drugged up somalis get taken down by russian forces.

So in this case, i would def give russia teh thumbs up.

However... If you elaborate a bit... If Russia can attack pirates, what stops the US from attacking, say... ... ... ... ... ... ...

PS: I could navigate a boat to land with the terms set by the russians. Yes, they had no navigational hardware left... But so what? There IS still a sky. and I am not even navy... I mean, if a poor army sergeant would feel confident about navigating (this) at sea... Then PIRATES should have no problems, right?

It would be like a NINJA asking me to teach him how to throw ninja-stars (shuriken).

i don't agree with your fetish for the precautionary principle where anything that could be abused in a dangerous manner should be disallowed, in case anyone chooses to abuse it so.

pirates dead, congrats to russia. *heads of for a quiet and peaceful slumber untroubled by a dark consciousness*

[Kadagar_AV]

i don't agree with your fetish for the precautionary principle where anything that could be abused in a dangerous manner should be disallowed, in case anyone chooses to abuse it so.

pirates dead, congrats to russia. *heads of for a quiet and peaceful slumber untroubled by a dark consciousness*

How did what you say relate to anything I said?

[Furunculus]

there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary moralising with the usual reference to a what-if situation where the US is bad, once again, with some apparent dilemma about whether it is right that russia could act with impunity to deal with a wrong as it saw fit on the assumption that it might be seen as license by baddies (america, no?) to act as they saw fit (like invade another country).

way too much moralising.
pirate = dead .'. good

KISS

[Kadagar_AV]

there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary moralising with the usual reference to a what-if situation where the US is bad, once again, with some apparent dilemma about whether it is right that russia could act with impunity to deal with a wrong as it saw fit on the assumption that it might be seen as license by baddies (america, no?) to act as they saw fit (like invade another country).

way too much moralising.
pirate = dead .'. good

KISS

Thank you for your insights, that was deep.

[rotorgun]

I talked about this topic a few days ago with a retired Senior Master Chief of the US Navy. He told me that when he was serving in the area, the usual procedure for the Navy was to turn over all captured Somalian pirates to Nairobi. He said that they could be prosecuted there in some sort of political agreement. Unfortunately, due to corruption of the process, that many were released to go back to Somalia after officials on the take were paid off by the warlords. While aboard US Navy vessels, these pirates were accorded POW status, something that is denied to insurgents captured in the so called war on terror. That is another topic alas.

[Andres]

About the problem of jurisdiction... I think this is something that could be handled by an international court.

If only important countries like the US and Russia would become members of the International Criminal Court and recognise its' authority, then perhaps the International Criminal Court could be given the jurisdiction to try crimes committed on international waters, like piracy.

But no, for some unclear reasons, said states avoid the ICC like the plague.

:balloon2:

[Jolt]

About the problem of jurisdiction... I think this is something that could be handled by an international court.

If only important countries like the US and Russia would become members of the International Criminal Court and recognise its' authority, then perhaps the International Criminal Court could be given the jurisdiction to try crimes committed on international waters, like piracy.

But no, for some unclear reasons, said states avoid the ICC like the plague.

:balloon2:

Even being trialed on an International Court, the fact is that the criminals would have shelter, adequate food (To say the very least) and safety for years to come, while honest Somalians would continue to live in a poverty ridden land, scavenging for food and work, and with uncertain safety due to the civil war still going on.

[Skullheadhq]

* Russian navy free the russian hostages and kill one terrorist while capturing 10.


Being a pirate isn´t the same as being a terrorist. Or was Captain Blackbeard an evil terrorist trying to sail his ships in some buildings?

[Vladimir]

Thank you for your insights, that was deep.

Not as deep as our impending invasion of Sweeden.

Oops, did I say that out loud? :embarassed:

[rotorgun]

Being a pirate isn´t the same as being a terrorist. Or was Captain Blackbeard an evil terrorist trying to sail his ships in some buildings?

Well then, I guess pointing a cutlass at my abdomen isn't quite the same as threatening a building, but it sure would terrify me. It's all about your point (pun intended) of view, isn't it?

[Husar]

Well then, I guess pointing a cutlass at my abdomen isn't quite the same as threatening a building, but it sure would terrify me. It's all about your point (pun intended) of view, isn't it?

So that woman who ran away from me one night (I was just walking home from work, happened to be the same road) should have shot me dead for terrifying her?

[Kadagar_AV]

Being a pirate isn´t the same as being a terrorist. Or was Captain Blackbeard an evil terrorist trying to sail his ships in some buildings?

You are absolutely right, I stand corrected. Dont know what I was thinking... I would have reacted too, so thanks :)

[rotorgun]

So that woman who ran away from me one night (I was just walking home from work, happened to be the same road) should have shot me dead for terrifying her?

Are you that terrifying Husar? :inquisitive: Just kidding. I think if you came at her with a weapon, demanding her jewelry and money, she might just have a legitimate reason to defend herself, no? You didn't do this, did you?

[Kadagar_AV]

Bumping this for fun :)

Cross-read with the Israeli-murder-spree-on-international-waters-thread for a laugh...

[Furunculus]

since your going to bump it, make it relevant by explaining the fun............

[Banquo's Ghost]

If anyone has a legitimate reason to want this thread re-opened to discuss further developments in the Somali piracy news, please PM me or any member of the team.

:closed: