[EB] Phalanx Noob Box - And how to beat it?

[Skullheadhq]

Okay, I've been playing EB with schoolfriends for 2 years now, and I always got a Heroic Victory and because of this one friend ALWAYS employs the Phalanx Noob Box, a very dense formation of Phalangitai which points all ways, I have no idea how to breach it. Could any of you give me some insight in this. Note this, it is so dense that he haves to stack his other troops and generals over eachother.

[Hax]

Archers. Surround his box with it and aim at the backs.

[Skullheadhq]

Any suggested faction(s) and or units for this tactic?

[Macilrille]

Depends what army you have available.

One thing that might work is to not attack them but click behind them and have your troops slowly (possibly in Guard Mode) walk through his formation. Then when in the middle of it, suddenly click on his troops to attack.

That is a typical MP cheesey tactic against dense phalanxes. You could also move Cretans or Balearics up to just in range of the units on the opposite side and shoot them in the back.

But then, I never play MP, ask Fluvius, I hear he is pretty good MP ;-)

[Cute Wolf]

the reason to bring some arrow throwers then :grin:

[Hax]

Any suggested faction(s) and or units for this tactic?

Anything east from Greece. Steppes are the best, but Persian and Syrian archers are fine too.

[Jebivjetar]

Your friend deploys his phalangites in a box-formation? What kind of a game is that anyway?
If i was in your place, i would instantly quit the match.

[athanaric]

Pack some Gaesatae, Tindanotae, Pictone Neitos or Worgozez. Fear effect + heavy javelins + high lethality + high attack/def skill + very high morale = phalanx breaker par excellence.
Even more effective are Sreni Pattya Yoddaha/Rhomphaiaphoroi/Kluddargos. Or Lugian Swordsmen.
As has been suggested, the arrow throwers are also effective (the smallest version).
Nomadic nobles with a lot of micro ("Fire at Will" turned off) can also help.

If all else fails, drop a strategic missile. Oh wait, that cheat was disabled...




Your friend deploys his phalangites in a box-formation? What kind of a game is that anyway?
If i was in your place, i would instantly quit the match.
Another possibility (and watch the look on his face, haha).
That was my reaction to more than one WarCraft III match. Some people just never learn to adhere to rules, nor to leave their competitive ambitions aside for a while.

[Maion Maroneios]

Your friend deploys his phalangites in a box-formation? What kind of a game is that anyway?
If i was in your place, i would instantly quit the match.
Or he could do something much better; namely, he could force him to accept playing on Arcade Mode which basically gives you an unlimited amount of ammo.

So you could go Carrhae on him. In a way.

[Macilrille]

Those are all expensive units Athanaric. And quitting is not an option if they have not agreed to not play with such cheats.

I gtg read some Economics, but here is brief, cheap Sweboz army that might deal with him.

4- 6 Medininkas to pepper the back of his units on the opposite side. More packed = more targets, do not empty their quivers, but save 2-4 salvoes
2 Worgozes or the like to scare.
Bodyguard.
0- 2 Kludda Lugia
8- 10 Slagonez
Rest LT Cav, german or gallic, to pepper him with Javs and run down routers.

You can afford the many units as Phalanxes are expensive, you may even be able to afford some upgrades on them.

Set up with archers in front, rest behind. Everything in Guard Mode.
If he has archers or slingers inside his Noob Box, shoot them first, while keeping your infantry out of range, except that you might want to send the bodyguard forwards to absorb arrows and if you have Cav, let them throw their javs.

When most ammo is spent, stop shooting. Move infantry forwards still in Guard Mode to the units you with to attack- the already depleted ones will be ideal, let them throw their javs to cause even more losses, then click behind the units you want to kill. AFAIK, your units will walk into and through his formation with few losses.

When it is well mixed up, click on his units with Guard mode Off and watch them be clubbed to death- Slagonez kills any armoured unit they are in close contact with. Meanwhile when he starts to waver you have moved your scary units up, but not in contact- their presence is anough, and fire a couple of fire-arrow salvoes on wavering units. They should rout then and his fine Noob Box is no more. While your cavalry runs down routers, you start concentrating on the individual parts of his formation as you are much more mobile then him.

Another tactic is to get an army of (horse) archers- or even the army described above, move up and shoot him up (always targeting the unit opposite's back or his missile units), then when your quivers are empty, withdraw to your own start position. You have not beaten him, but you have cause losses and he has not... you then hold the initiative as he has to move if he is to beat you and you will be able to concentrate all your force on a small part of his as you are more mobile.

just suggestions, dunno if they will work. Never play MP. GTG read.

[Skullheadhq]

Thanks all, I will try this tomorrow. And if I win, he'll probably stop using the tactic and I can get some Heroic Victories again!
Feel free to post more strategies against the box.

[Macilrille]

Well, you really want Fluvius to respond, AFAIK he is MP champion is he not?

[Skullheadhq]

Oh wait, he always has some Cretans which might prove nasty with unlimited arrows.


@Fluvius
Kom op, ik weet dat je dit wel eens eerder gezien hebt, als je zo goed ben in MP als zij beweren.

[Macilrille]

6 Medininkas then, not even Cretans can stand up to that firepower and they can actually melee a bit if needs be.

He he he, did I ever mention that I can read passibly Dutch.

[Apázlinemjó]

A HA based army could easily beat the phalanx box, moreover if you are fast enough your opponent won't even have the time to form one.

Or

If you are playing with a Hellenistic faction, then just concentrate your phalangites (if it's allowed stack them on each other) on one of the side of the box until it breaks up, then swarm inside the box with the more mobile infantry. After that, the box's other sides will probably turn around and you can bring your cavalry against their rears.

[seienchin]

Off course there are no(!!!) archer armies, who can defeat Phalanx boxes, simply because one unit of archers in EB hasnt enought arrows to kill one units of phalangitai. Further many phalanx boxes also have archers in there middle, but still its not neccesary. The two things, that easily break Phalangitai are:
Heavy infantry exploiting the klick behind the unit trick. They just storm into the phalanx destroying it in melee. Still its nearly useless against agyraspidai and difficult agains eastern levy phalangitai...(Axes) . The other thing is to just bring your own phalangitai and just use them in overwhelming numbers on one side.

My favourite method is:
1.Shoot less protected phalangitai with archers or slingers in the back,
2.exhaust the enemy elite phalangitai with hoplite just standing in front of the enemy pikes. (They wont take too much casualties and the phalangitai will tire)
3. Atack with heavy infantry or medium infantry with AP weapons. The phalangitai wont kill too much, when they are exhausted.
If you dont wannt to exploit the klick behind trick you will need phalangitai by yourself or gesatae in the corners.
In MP Battles Generals have no stars so exhausted phalangitai with casualties might rout against gesatae. In the single player a 10Star AI General building a box would be impossible to beat. Luckily there is no such thing with the KI. ^^

EDIT:
4-5 Arrow throwers might just panik your enemy enough to force him to atack, but than off course you might loose the battle because you have significant less money for real troops.

[athanaric]

6 Medininkas then, not even Cretans can stand up to that firepower and they can actually melee a bit if needs be.
Medininkas have 25 ammo, Cretans have 35 plus far better protection.
Focus fire is the magic word.
Medininkas can also be used to mop up, allowing you to field more of them and have minimal cavalry. This might be a risky move though, if he changes tactics.

And unlimited arrow mode is lame, plus it might backfire (ha ha) if he has enough Cretans.



Off course there are no(!!!) archer armies, who can defeat Phalanx boxes, simply because one unit of archers in EB hasnt enought arrows to kill one units of phalangitai. Further many phalanx boxes also have archers in there middle, but still its not neccesary. The two things, that easily break Phalangitai are:
Heavy infantry exploiting the klick behind the unit trick. They just storm into the phalanx destroying it in melee. Still its nearly useless against agyraspidai and difficult agains eastern levy phalangitai...(Axes) . The other thing is to just bring your own phalangitai and just use them in overwhelming numbers on one side.
I can tell you from experience that Sreni Pattya Yoddaha can shred Panda Phalanx in a few seconds, if they attack at the right angle. I've learned the hard way not to use too many phalanxes when assaulting Indian towns.

Polybian Principes or Legionaries are also good for wearing a phalanx down, or for massed assault.



My favourite method is:
1.Shoot less protected phalangitai with archers or slingers in the back,
2.exhaust the enemy elite phalangitai with hoplite just standing in front of the enemy pikes. (They wont take too much casualties and the phalangitai will tire)
3. Atack with heavy infantry or medium infantry with AP weapons. The phalangitai wont kill too much, when they are exhausted.
If you dont wannt to exploit the klick behind trick you will need phalangitai by yourself or gesatae in the corners.
I concur. My tips were also meant to work without the exploit.

[G. Septimus]

Choose some Mobile, Heavy Infantry , fight Noob Boxes with Mobility
"Blitzkrieg"
anything mobile can destroy ANY unmobile force, mark my words...

[antisocialmunky]

My old Rome Solution:

Get lots of Pedites Extraordinarii or something similarly heavily armored/densely packed/AP. I hear Getai units work well too. Bring some nakeds/chariots and at least one archer so you can stack the fire arrow bonus.

Stack several of them ontop of each other, put them in guard mode and order them to run behind and repeat the order if the units start breaking formation.

When they are half way through, take them out of guard. If they are in a box, you'll have to do this to multiple sides at once. Phalangites in EB are otherwise too powerful for any sort of frontal attack except maybe by a deeper formation of better phalangites with guard mode off.

[vartan]

My old Rome Solution:

Get lots of Pedites Extraordinarii or something similarly heavily armored/densely packed/AP. I hear Getai units work well too. Bring some nakeds/chariots and at least one archer so you can stack the fire arrow bonus.

Stack several of them ontop of each other, put them in guard mode and order them to run behind and repeat the order if the units start breaking formation.

When they are half way through, take them out of guard. If they are in a box, you'll have to do this to multiple sides at once. Phalangites in EB are otherwise too powerful for any sort of frontal attack except maybe by a deeper formation of better phalangites with guard mode off.
What he said. Anti and I tested this, he should remember. His pedites cut through, albeit with some losses. But it works.

[Skullheadhq]

Oh one more thing, he is always Epeiros and uses the most expensive one, I'll set the money maximum lower for increased variety.
He also has some thorakitai in the middle.
I wrote Macilrille's strategy down but will use some other ideas you all gave me as well. Match is in a few hours.

[mountaingoat]

flaming pigs!

or HA

[Ludens]

That was my reaction to more than one WarCraft III match. Some people just never learn to adhere to rules, nor to leave their competitive ambitions aside for a while.

If SkullheadHQ nearly always wins these matches, I can understand why his competitor would switch to cheesy tactics. Skullhead, I think you should talk to this guy and agree to some handicaps in return for him not using noob boxes. An one-sided competition is no fun for the other side.

[Skullheadhq]

I've proposed a handicap many times, but they won't, they say that if they win it isn't a real victory.

[athanaric]

Oh one more thing, he is always Epeiros and uses the most expensive one, I'll set the money maximum lower for increased variety.
He also has some thorakitai in the middle.
Well, then make him play another faction. Rome has very strong defensive infantry as well, without the possibility of Noob Boxes. It should be sufficient for a compromise.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Well, you really want Fluvius to respond, AFAIK he is MP champion is he not?


[..]
@Fluvius
Kom op, ik weet dat je dit wel eens eerder gezien hebt, als je zo goed ben in MP als zij beweren.

Well here I am, Champion Fluvius, the undefeated Batavian!~D I must admit I'm very good at MP, but not the champion by points.:embarassed:

After reading most posts here I think a lot has been said. Although one thing has been left out:

Attacking his phalanx with yours from a different angle. If you attack from a corner with your sarissas, his ones will not reach you, but you can kill them. The corners are the weak points, you can soften them up with your phalanx or pump HL and AP in for a breach. If you want to get in head on, your best shot would be a big unit which will sacrifice itself to disrupt the phalanx. If you charge in with some cheap african elephants into his line, then they will probably die, but with the holes created, you can pump in your heavy infantry using the click behind tactic or exploit the gap in any other way.

However, maybe the box I picture is much different from the one you encounter. It would seem like a good idea to me that we head over to the MP battleground and you do exactly the same tactic he employs, then I will try to defeat you.

Hope that helps!

Ik ben dit nog niet tegengekomen in MP, Skullheadhq.

~Fluvius

[Fluvius Camillus]

And we are back again.

My tactic worked and the box was destroyed with very little casualties. I chose the Qarthadastim for this fight because their roster hosted all the troops I needed, of course it can be done by more factions.

The replay link is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/tnemitdox2w/Noobboxpwn.zip

The part where I am wearing out his phalanx with my own is quite tedious so it's best to triple that.

Fluvius has spoken:clown:

~Fluvius

[WinsingtonIII]

Not sure if it's been said already, but make sure to look for corners. If he's careful constructing it, there might not be any, but you should be able to find at least one, and when you do, assault that corner with armor piercing units, ideally ones that have some armor/staying power as well. If you use your own spears in guard mode to pin the rest of the box in place (the high morale of EB units and the extremely slow kill rate of phalanxes will help you here) and focus an assault on the corners with AP units, you may be able to break through. Shooting them in the back is helpful as well, but I doubt you will be able to win the battle simply with arrows/slings.

EDIT: haha Fluvius just said attack the corners two posts ago... this is what I get for not reading the whole thread. Sorry Fluvius...

[Skullheadhq]

Okay, I played three marches against him, and I won all three times, I did the attack the corners and won. After that match he changed his tactic and got a crushing defeat...twice. Thanks all!

[Centurion1]

i feel badly for yuor friend to be honest

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

My response to a 'Phalanx Noob Box' would be to set my own army up in proper historical formation, well out out of his missile range, on good terrain, and then just sit and wait. Wait him out. If he's a noob, he'll get bored waiting and attack - and he has to mess up his Noob Box formation to do that.

Otherwise nothing happens, there's no battle, and the match is a draw. All very historical, ancient armies often faced each other for days on end without fighting while each side waited for an advantage to appear.

[antisocialmunky]

That's no fun.

[vartan]

That's no fun.
Haha! That's what the Strategos used to say in those ancient Greek/Persian battles, where they would wait forever to battle. It's all about supplies!

P.S. What's up with the guy a few posts back? did the spellcheck die on him? :sweatdrop:

[Cute Wolf]

if you done phalanx noob box in medieval period, it was a valid tactics for William Wallace!... but then, they also have some nasty cannons and catapults to deal with :grin:

BTW, overpowering Chaoneion Agema from the front is difficult, but Argyraspidai backed with Thraikikoi Rhompaiakoi is quite sufficient

[Macilrille]

Wallace was a minor player TBH, and the English found a way to beat those Scots, same they later employed to beat French and anyone else that got in their way for a century or so.

Anyway, Skull's friend(s) are welcome to come for advice as well. We give it freely, though it might not be good advice ;-) and by facing the best you improve faster we say in Viking; it is common for our Noobs to search out the most (in)famous warriors and fight them to get thrashed and learn.

Anyway that is enough relief, back to reading Microeconomy.

[Skullheadhq]

i feel badly for yuor friend to be honest

He wants revanche tonight. He'll never give up.

[Ludens]

He wants revanche tonight. He'll never give up.

Congratulations, and good luck!

[Finn MacCumhail]

And we are all eager to see some screenshots.

[Duguntz]

And we are all eager to see some screenshots.
Seconded. Totally.

[Apázlinemjó]

And we are all eager to see some screenshots.

Yeah, we want screeeeenieeeeeeees, Skullheadheadquarters.

[Skullheadhq]

Yeah, we want screeeeenieeeeeeees, Skullheadheadquarters.

Well, hq doesn't really stand for headquaters, let me tell you the tale of my name:

Many, many years ago I wanted to play RuneScape, totally new to the interwebs I was faced with the question of my account name. So I thought: Skullhead is a really gangsta name, like skull, and head! But then I got a message that the name was already in use, so I just typed '45' at the end. That was my account name for all things of the interwebs for nearly 2 years. Then I brought a game called "Guild Wars" and I entered my name "Skullhead45" like always. But then I got the message that I wasn't allowed to type numerals. So I just typed in 2 random characters without looking to the keyboard and 'hq' came out. Got nothing to do with headquaters.

Anyway, I'll deliver screens when I get them.

[Maion Maroneios]

Seconded. Totally.
Thirded.

[Cute Wolf]

Thirded.

fourthed

[jirisys]

fourthed

Seventh'd it

~Jirisys (i'm great at arithmatics:grin:)

[Apázlinemjó]

Well, hq doesn't really stand for headquaters, let me tell you the tale of my name:

Many, many years ago I wanted to play RuneScape, totally new to the interwebs I was faced with the question of my account name. So I thought: Skullhead is a really gangsta name, like skull, and head! But then I got a message that the name was already in use, so I just typed '45' at the end. That was my account name for all things of the interwebs for nearly 2 years. Then I brought a game called "Guild Wars" and I entered my name "Skullhead45" like always. But then I got the message that I wasn't allowed to type numerals. So I just typed in 2 random characters without looking to the keyboard and 'hq' came out. Got nothing to do with headquaters.

Anyway, I'll deliver screens when I get them.

And I always thought the "hq" in your name was headquarters... damn. I have a similar story with the KOTOR name generator, but let's not derail the a topic.

Edit: Fifth'd

[Skullheadhq]

We'll fight tonight. I'll take as much screenies as possible and I'll upload the replay, if anyone is interested.

[Macilrille]

He has not had much help yet- go and play with Vartan, he wants you ;-)

[Skullheadhq]

So, why not help him then?

[Macilrille]

Because, as you will notice from my posts these days, they are brief and requires no thought. They are short breaks in my study of exceedingly boring Micro- and Macroeconomics for an exam that is pass or piss off... Breaks that require no thought, cause my brain is exploding with economical theory (http://www.amazon.com/Microeconomics-7th-Robert-Pindyck/dp/0132080230) and has no room for other thoughts.

EBII also badly needs me, but that will be after exam.

[seienchin]

By the way.
Phalanx box plus Hypaspitai is next to impossible to beat. You just place them at the corners so that the box is shaped like a hexagon.
Of course its expensive, but even with regular hoplitai the enemy has a huge problem.
They stand incredible close to each other so they are perfect for holding such small spots, they dont tire in defense mode, they have incredible armour ratings and they are impossible to atack with cavallery, when they stand in the corners.
I love this combination. :)

[Skullheadhq]

I love this combination. :)

You disappoint me.

[seienchin]

You disappoint me.

Only against he AI in custom battles. ;)
Its quit fun watching 1000s of celtic or roman warriors running against an inpenetratable spearwall. Also you can evaluate different types of phalangitai and hoplitai. Hypaspitai are actually the best defense troop there is. Of course phalangitai are better against other phalanx style troops and light infantry, but hypaspitai are really the had guys. They never die, excepy against light AP wearing troops.... :(

[antisocialmunky]

I dunno, pretty much every thing with a Aspis take forever to kill when in guard mode.